Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 390: Where Uvalde Cowboys Gone?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Reg posted...

Even full time?

Correct. Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be lived off of. They are meant to be supplemental. As a second job in the household, or someone living with their parents or so on.

The fact so many people have refused to move up in life and campaigned for increasing minimum wage instead of finding better jobs has lead to jobs that maybe shouldn't be minimum wage remaining so, which has been a boon for staving off inflation, but has increased economic disparity.

It would be a reasonable argument if the entire reason the minimum wage was created wasn't to ensure a minimum quality of life for individuals in an obscenely wealthy country.

You're just plain wrong, dude. Get your head out of your ass and stop drinking the propaganda kool aid.

As someone who grew up a block away from a very poor government run apartment complex, there is no possible way UBI will work. People who are working and are in the lower middle class will immediately look at the people who do nothing all day making the same money as they are, which will at best breed resentment and unrest, and at worst will result in all of those people just saying "fuck it" and quitting their jobs to live off of the system. It will accelerate the economic issues that we are currently going through (inflation, shrinking labour pool, out of control government spending).

There HAS to be a downside to sitting at home doing nothing all day, otherwise our entire society will just collapse in on itself

How do other countries with UBI stave off collapse?

BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

There HAS to be a downside to sitting at home doing nothing all day

Diabetes

BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

As someone who grew up a block away from a very poor government run apartment complex, there is no possible way UBI will work. People who are working and are in the lower middle class will immediately look at the people who do nothing all day making the same money as they are, which will at best breed resentment and unrest, and at worst will result in all of those people just saying "fuck it" and quitting their jobs to live off of the system. It will accelerate the economic issues that we are currently going through (inflation, shrinking labour pool, out of control government spending).

There HAS to be a downside to sitting at home doing nothing all day, otherwise our entire society will just collapse in on itself

Doing nothing all day is boring.

red sox 777 posted...

So basically, this idea that how much wealth you end up with is entirely driven by circumstances you have nothing to do with is wrong. Yes, it is mostly driven by the wealth of the family into which you are born - but not entirely. It might be something like 65% birth, 25% luck, 10% your skill and work. But 10% is still not nothing.

"Luck" has way less to do with it than you think. I'd say its probably closer to just 50% family related, and 45% work ethic. Obviously a small part of the population lucks into things, but its incredibly rare, and even in those situations a lot of the time the luck is a result of putting in hard work (think about people who have invented something serindipidously after decades of failures).

Corrik7 posted...

Correct. Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be lived off of. They are meant to be supplemental. As a second job in the household, or someone living with their parents or so on.

The fact so many people have refused to move up in life and campaigned for increasing minimum wage instead of finding better jobs has lead to jobs that maybe shouldn't be minimum wage remaining so, which has been a boon for staving off inflation, but has increased economic disparity.

Minumum wage was initially a living wage when it was originally conceived.

If all of these people just "find better jobs" then nobody remains to do these shit minimum wage jobs that companies are already whining about nobody wanting to work.

If you increase minimum wage, you increase the wage for all other jobs. It's not just helping people who have "refused to move up in life." You're acting like only people working minimum wage jobs are advocating for minimum wage to be raised when we're looking at literally everything around us being more expensive than it ever has been with no increase in wages in entirely too long.

HeroicCrono posted...

Doing nothing all day is boring.

You sir have never lived in a neighbourhood with a large population of welfare cases. They don't do "nothing" per se, they just fill their day with drugs/alcohol/harassing the people that are paying their welfare cheques

BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

So now we get back to "people who have very little money deserve to have luxuries that they didn't in any way earn".

You've physically said, in this topic, that certain people are BORN incapable of gaining employment beyond unskilled labor. Either because they lack the ability (or more likely, they're born into poverty and that is an extremely difficult hole to dig your way out of, since poverty begets poverty). But because the labor isn't skilled (and keep in mind that the hypothetical we're discussing is a minimum wage worker who is working MULTIPLE full-time jobs in order to fulfill the basic needs of their survival), you're still claiming they didn't "earn" basic human decency. These are people who can barely afford clothing, food and shelter, and you're bitching about how they're lazy and entitled and seeking 70-inch flat screen TVs.

How difficult is YOUR job that you have time in the middle of an average work day to debate economics on an internet message? I've worked retail for minimum wage and I currently work an office job for MUCH more than that, and I can guarantee you that I worked a FUCKTON harder for minimum wage than I do now. And, since this ties into one of your other stupid arguments, the only reason I have my office job is because I went to college and got a degree that has NOTHING to do with what I currently do for a living.

This what I'm talking about. One of the major reasons why I have a well-paying office job (and don't get me wrong, I work extremely hard and went from office assistant to supervisor in an astonishingly short amount of time) instead of being stuck working minimum wage is because I have that college degree. And I have that college degree because I was born into a family that was able to set money aside that allowed me to go to college in the first place. Meanwhile, without that degree, I spent ten years working retail in an extremely thankless position where me working hard full-time got me minimum wage and just a general lack of respect for working a job that SOMEONE has to do in order for society to function.

I just don't get how anyone can be so arrogant as to blame poor people's work ethic when the deck is dramatically stacked against you if you don't have the money needed to invest in yourself.

Everybody hates on minimum wage jobs until they can't get service at <insert convenience based shop or food establishment> in a timely fashion then they lose their damn minds.

I feel everybody should have to work retail or food once just to understand. Like, I'd never work it again, but I'll also never be an asshole about the people that do

Corrik7 posted...

Correct. Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be lived off of. They are meant to be supplemental. As a second job in the household, or someone living with their parents or so on.

This is literally false, lol.

Reg posted...

And until this happens, those people should just fuck off and die?

That's what welfare is currently used for

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

This is literally false, lol.

It's an opinion, so it can't be true or false

Inviso posted...

You've physically said, in this topic, that certain people are BORN incapable of gaining employment beyond unskilled labor. Either because they lack the ability (or more likely, they're born into poverty and that is an extremely difficult hole to dig your way out of, since poverty begets poverty). But because the labor isn't skilled (and keep in mind that the hypothetical we're discussing is a minimum wage worker who is working MULTIPLE full-time jobs in order to fulfill the basic needs of their survival), you're still claiming they didn't "earn" basic human decency. These are people who can barely afford clothing, food and shelter, and you're bitching about how they're lazy and entitled and seeking 70-inch flat screen TVs.

How difficult is YOUR job that you have time in the middle of an average work day to debate economics on an internet message? I've worked retail for minimum wage and I currently work an office job for MUCH more than that, and I can guarantee you that I worked a FUCKTON harder for minimum wage than I do now. And, since this ties into one of your other stupid arguments, the only reason I have my office job is because I went to college and got a degree that has NOTHING to do with what I currently do for a living.

This what I'm talking about. One of the major reasons why I have a well-paying office job (and don't get me wrong, I work extremely hard and went from office assistant to supervisor in an astonishingly short amount of time) instead of being stuck working minimum wage is because I have that college degree. And I have that college degree because I was born into a family that was able to set money aside that allowed me to go to college in the first place. Meanwhile, without that degree, I spent ten years working retail in an extremely thankless position where me working hard full-time got me minimum wage and just a general lack of respect for working a job that SOMEONE has to do in order for society to function.

I just don't get how anyone can be so arrogant as to blame poor people's work ethic when the deck is dramatically stacked against you if you don't have the money needed to invest in yourself.

People who have valid medical issues that prevent them from working get disability cheques, which are more than enough to provide basic human needs. People who don't have valid medical issues get welfare which provides basic human needs. Right now the incentive to work and contribute to society is to be able to afford luxories, seems like the system is working great to me, why do we need to have the people who are already working and paying taxes subsidizing the luxories of the people who refuse to work?

BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

People who have valid medical issues that prevent them from working get disability cheques, which are more than enough to provide basic human needs. People who don't have valid medical issues get welfare which provides basic human needs. Right now the incentive to work and contribute to society is to be able to afford luxories, seems like the system is working great to me, why do we need to have the people who are already working and paying taxes subsidizing the luxories of the people who refuse to work?

At what point did I say anything about people who refuse to work? I'm specifically talking about people who are working a HELL of a lot harder than you and me (since we're sitting around an internet message board in the middle of a work day) and STILL cannot make ends meet because the system is not designed to help them advance or afford basic needs (never mind luxuries).

"Man, I'm missing a lot of posts. Maybe I should just unblock bla..."

You sir have never lived in a neighbourhood with a large population of welfare cases. They don't do "nothing" per se, they just fill their day with drugs/alcohol/harassing the people that are paying their welfare cheques

...

Eh, maybe later

And my job is difficult at times, and incredibly quiet at other times. Right now we're in a lull between projects which affords me the opportunity to shitpost on GameFAQs. But this quiet time is something I pay for when we're busy and putting in 12-14 hour days launching a new product, and travelling away from my family, sometimes for 2-3 weeks at a time. I also put a lot of work into building the experience and skillset that I have, specifically getting a degree and paying for it with money I made working minimum wage jobs in high school/college.

I never really considered how much of a luxury it is to be able to shitpost in the middle of work day, but it definitely is isn't it?

Inviso posted...

At what point did I say anything about people who refuse to work? I'm specifically talking about people who are working a HELL of a lot harder than you and me (since we're sitting around an internet message board in the middle of a work day) and STILL cannot make ends meet because the system is not designed to help them advance or afford basic needs (never mind luxuries).

And we once again circle back to the fact that living within your means is entirely possible with a minimum wage job (again outside of the outlier areas like San Francisco with out of control COL). If you can't afford basic needs in this situation, you are doing something wrong (fiscal negligence, living beyond your means, drugs/alcohol abuse)

BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

And we once again circle back to the fact that living within your means is entirely possible with a minimum wage job (again outside of the outlier areas like San Francisco with out of control COL). If you can't afford basic needs in this situation, you are doing something wrong (fiscal negligence, living beyond your means, drugs/alcohol abuse)

It's not, and the fact that you ignored a post filled with economic statistics in order to cite anecdotal evidence about how a handful of freeloaders you used to live near...kinda proves that you know it's bullshit. You just think you're special and you worked hard, and therefore everyone else has it just as easy as you do.

Also, aren't you Canadian? You have a completely different experience than your average American, starting with the fact that you have universal healthcare, and therefore a single, unexpected medical debt isn't going to bankrupt you.

I am a big supporter of universal healthcare, and by pretty much every metric a single payer system is better and more efficient than the monstrosity that is the US healthcare system. But we still have freeloaders in Canada, and we have people who stan for UBI despite having no concept of the current welfare systems which are perfectly adequate.

And where is this post with "economic statistics"? I might have missed it

do we really need to engage with a "the poors are all incompetent drug addicts" argument with BT over and over again

also note to self I will be unblocking plum when I get home

BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

And we once again circle back to the fact that living within your means is entirely possible with a minimum wage job (again outside of the outlier areas like San Francisco with out of control COL).

https://livingwage.mit.edu/

Could you show me a place where the calculated living wage here isn't more the minimum wage? I'm too lazy to find one, but if you're right then it shouldn't take you too long.

counterpoint: what is b8 for if not arguing in circles for literal years

Xeybozn posted...

https://livingwage.mit.edu/

Could you show me a place where the calculated living wage here isn't more the minimum wage? I'm too lazy to find one, but if you're right then it shouldn't take you too long.

https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/42051

According to this I don't have a living wage? How is this calculated?

Tom Bombadil posted...

counterpoint: what is b8 for if not arguing in circles for literal years

Arguing in circles about GameFAQs contests =/= arguing in circles about politics

The latter is miserable, especially when the people you argue with genuinely want a lot of people to die

masterplum posted...

It's an opinion, so it can't be true or false

I disagree, he said theyre not meant to be lived off of. Its not an opinion, hes stating it as a fact.

masterplum posted...

It's an opinion, so it can't be true or false

Yes it can. You can go back to when the minimum wage was established and it was to provide a living wage lol

Basic needs budget = Food cost + childcare cost + (insurance premiums +
health care costs) + housing cost + transportation cost + other
necessities cost + civic engagement + broadband
Living wage = Basic needs budget + (basic needs budget*tax rate)

Well, no one has a living wage if you are putting child care cost into it. And wtf is civic engagement?

Civic The civic engagement component is constructed using 2020 national expenditure data by
household size from the 2020 Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Expenditure Survey
including: (1) Fees and admissions, (2) audio and visual equipment and services, (3) pets, and (4)
toys, (5) hobbies, and playground equipment, (6) other entertainment supplies, (7) equipment,
and services, (8) reading, and (9) education. Civic engagement costs cover expenses related to
participating in and engaging in civic activities.23 These costs were further adjusted for regional
differences using annual expenditure shares reported by region.24 Expenditures were selected by
household size, instead of as a share of household income because civic engagement costs are
roughly the same for all persons regardless of income. Values were inflated ( 5.1%) from 2020 to
2021 dollars using the Consumer Price Index inflation multiplier from the Bureau of Labor
Statistics.25

Wtf?

in my opinion, opinions can be false

boom checkmate

a lot of absolutely vile bigoted garbage is "opinion"

and yes, wrong

These numbers don't really make sense.

Food is low. Housing is high. Transportation is very high. Medical is weird because it is usually included in your job or free if below a certain baseline. Civic is completely ????? Other is outrageously high also.

If minimum wage isn't supposed to provide a living wage, then who does the jobs during the workday? Can't be students. Can't be teenagers. Can't be people with primary jobs that they're already doing during the workday.

visiting sister in Colorado right now and these political ads at the hotel are baffling me

keep getting this one attacking a Republican for supporting democrats and then at the end it says paid for by Colorado Democrats ??????

this is so foreign to me, like I've seen ads saying x candidate supports our platform but this is straight up framing democratic policies as bad, then saying listen to us, the dems

not the culture shock I was expecting

HanOfTheNekos posted...

If minimum wage isn't supposed to provide a living wage, then who does the jobs during the workday? Can't be students. Can't be teenagers. Can't be people with primary jobs that they're already doing during the workday.

People who don't need the wage to live. Retirees, people in households that want a hobby, and in some cases maybe the business just doesn't need to be open. Do we really need dozens of fast food choices everywhere around us?

masterplum posted...

People who don't need the wage to live. Retirees, people in households that want a hobby, and in some cases maybe the business just doesn't need to be open. Do we really need dozens of fast food choices everywhere around us?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/minimum_wage#:~:text=The%20purpose%20of%20the%20minimum,and%20well%2Dbeing%20of%20employees.
Highlight mine

There is a difference between why minimum wage is enacted and why minimum wage is what it is now. It's two entirely different things, otherwise it would be much higher now

masterplum posted...

There is a difference between why minimum wage is enacted and why minimum wage is what it is now. It's two entirely different things, otherwise it would be much higher now

it's much lower now than it was relative to when it was enacted because corporate lobbyists pay good money to keep it low so their corporations don't have to pay their workers living wages

please tell me you already knew that

please

i'm begging you

masterplum posted...

There is a difference between why minimum wage is enacted and why minimum wage is what it is now. It's two entirely different things, otherwise it would be much higher now

Because despite the fact that we had regular increases to the minimum wage in tune with increases in cost of living, we stopped doing that around the time Ronald Reagan got the presidency, because he believed the trickle-down economics of giving more money to the rich would benefit the poor (it didn't, and probably had no real belief that trickle-down would help the poor in any capacity, but it would certainly help the rich).

masterplum posted...

There is a difference between why minimum wage is enacted and why minimum wage is what it is now. It's two entirely different things, otherwise it would be much higher now

Why minimum wage is what it is now is because of a greedy capitalist society and the government that enables it instead of looking out for the citizens they are meant to serve.

How about the simple reason of increasing minimum wage, thus increasing all other wages, because cost of living has continued to increase beyond reasonable? Can we use that logic then if we're going to continue pretending like minimum wage isn't supposed to be a living wage, so that the people who are making above minimum wage has a chance to earn a living wage too?

Not_an_Owl posted...

it's much lower now than it was relative to when it was enacted because corporate lobbyists pay good money to keep it low so their corporations don't have to pay their workers living wages

please tell me you already knew that

please

i'm begging you

Corporations are never the bad guy! /s

https://twitter.com/davidcharns/status/1539787421369262080?t=mBy8Nc2Yk-1Tzu33bALPZg&s=19

Also I'm loving the insanity of "Guys, a minimum wage job just isn't supposed to work like that! It's for retirees, bored people, and students!" Fellas, that's what a part time job was for where the money you made there could go a lot further. Now a part time job is barely worth it.

masterplum posted...

People who don't need the wage to live. Retirees, people in households that want a hobby, and in some cases maybe the business just doesn't need to be open. Do we really need dozens of fast food choices everywhere around us?

Plum, do you work at McDonald's for a hobby? And if not, why not?

masterplum posted...

There is a difference between why minimum wage is enacted and why minimum wage is what it is now. It's two entirely different things, otherwise it would be much higher now

... Oh Plum lol

HanOfTheNekos posted...

If minimum wage isn't supposed to provide a living wage, then who does the jobs during the workday? Can't be students. Can't be teenagers. Can't be people with primary jobs that they're already doing during the workday.

If there isn't people that are willing to work it, the wage will naturally rise. As it stands now, people are perfectly willing to work them if they exist.

Corrik7 posted...

If there isn't people that are willing to work it, the wage will naturally rise. As it stands now, people are perfectly willing to work them if they exist.

Once people are willing to be homeless, starve, and die, then the wage will naturally rise.

Minimum wage laws harm people who are unable to find work at that level of pay but could find a job paying less than that. This can mean the difference between having food to eat and a place to sleep or not. Unless the government is going to backstop those people by giving them enough cash to make up for their unemployment, the minimum wage law is harming them.

And I would argue that once you have universal income (or cash welfare for the poor) in place, you do not need a minimum wage law.

masterplum posted...

People who don't need the wage to live. Retirees, people in households that want a hobby, and in some cases maybe the business just doesn't need to be open. Do we really need dozens of fast food choices everywhere around us?

lol what who wants a minimum wage job as a hobby
like what job pays minimum wage and isnt also an unpleasant way to spend your time other than maybe if youre an elderly person who really likes saying hi to people entering a Walmart

"So what are some of your hobbies?"

"Oh, you know. I really like bad horror movies, gardening, and making subpar hamburgers for people that are screaming at me from their car window. The usual sort of stuff."