Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 390: Where Uvalde Cowboys Gone?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Honestly I don't think 'agree to disagree' is valid here. You're just straight-up wrong about how Trump functions as a cult personality, and if you don't understand the how and why, you're going to be blindsided the next time it happens.

StealThisSheen posted...

I mean, that was the metric KP used in what Kenri quoted when he first asked the question, so that's what I responded to.

I would actually need to look at the numbers to see how centrist voters fell, but 'won/lost the election' is not an absolute indicator of charisma. There are more Democrats than Republicans, so realistically they should win every fair (lol) election anyway, assuming equal percentages turn out.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I seriously cannot believe you actually think that Donald Trump is just a random replacement-level guy

Do you really think, if Trump was out of the picture, whether because he croaked tomorrow, or got another four years and was done, that the MAGA/America First people would just go "Welp, guess we'll return to our hobbies now," instead of just coalescing around the next one?

Man, I hope so.

I mean, I'm on Team "He Has No Charisma" and have stated as such from the start as well. To the extent I can see the opposing side, I'll admit maybe he is charismatic in the way a trainwreck is. Before he had power his way of speaking was just so bad it kind of looped around to almost funny, think the riffing on Bushisms but turned up to 11. Someone like Cruz couldn't pull that off, no. So if that's what charisma is I guess he has some? But that's not really what I thought of it.

KamikazePotato posted...

and if you don't understand the how and why, you're going to be blindsided the next time it happens.

What? My entire argument is that it's going to happen again. And again. And again. Because it's not just about Trump. If Trump is such a unique, charismatic individual, then it'd be more likely the movement would die with him. I don't think that at all. I think it continues with or without him, which is my entire point in thinking he's not as special as people seem to think he is. When Trump's one, I fully believe he will be replaced with the next "chosen one," and the MAGA/AF movement won't die out at all.

No, the movement continuing to exist past Trump does not mean Trump wasnt charismatic, literally what are you talking about?

You think Reagan was one of our most charismatic presidents and Trump literally did his playbook except more insaneand it worked better!

StealThisSheen posted...

What? My entire argument is that it's going to happen again. And again. And again. Because it's not just about Trump. If Trump is such a unique, charismatic individual, then it'd be more likely the movement would die with him. I don't think that at all. I think it continues with or without him, which is my entire point in thinking he's not as special as people seem to think he is.

Under this logic, any leader of a movement whose movement continues after they die/leave was replaceable. That's not how it works. Some people are so charismatic, so influential, that the mark they made continues after they're gone. Would you say that Martin Luther King Jr wasn't charismatic because the Civil Rights Movement continued after he died?

(If that comparison offends you, well, a lot of the right basically sees Trump as a civil rights leader of sorts)

Of course Trump isn't unique, so of course figures like him will continue to exist in the future, but that has nothing to do with whether or not he is charismatic. Ted Cruz does not have what he has. Ron DeSantis does not have what he has. Mind you, this is separate from the possibility of him winning an election anyway - powerful charisma isn't a requirement to winning an election. But we do not see cults of personality like Trump's very often. Reagan was the last conservative one before this. People who don't have Trump's charisma don't have cults of personality form around them like this.

xp1337 posted...

I mean, I'm on Team "He Has No Charisma" and have stated as such from the start as well. To the extent I can see the opposing side, I'll admit maybe he is charismatic in the way a trainwreck is. Before he had power his way of speaking was just so bad it kind of looped around to almost funny, think the riffing on Bushisms but turned up to 11. Someone like Cruz couldn't pull that off, no. So if that's what charisma is I guess he has some? But that's not really what I thought of it.

That's because to you, charisma=well spoken while making a strong point in a non-aggressive manner. Basically Obama.

But just because Trump's charisma isn't FOR YOU, doesn't mean he isn't charismatic. The effect he's had on people speaks for itself.

I think saying Trump used Reagan's playbook is inaccurate. Like there's overlap insofar as that Reagan's strategy of embracing evangelicals transformed a lot of how the GOP operated but Trump didn't really overtly reach out to them or anything - they had just latched on to the GOP regardless of how much sense it made for supposed religious people. Like Trump's biggest "outreach" was probably picking Pence and let's not forget all the absurd tries like "Two Corinthians."

Trump just traded the dogwhistle on racism for a bullhorn. His popularity with the right began with questioning Obama's birth certificate and he entered the campaign calling Mexicans rapists. For a base increasingly fed and isolated on AM Radio, Fox, and Breitbart it was like they got the pure stuff instead of the watered down crap the GOP had been giving them because concepts like shame still limited them to some extent.

That was Trump's superpower - a lack of shame. That and racism.

The thing about Trump, in my opinion, that sets him apart from the countless posers all trying to position themselves as the next Trump, is the television background. He knew how to tailor himself to appeal to an audience because he's done it for years. Someone like MTG/Lauren Boebert or Ron DeSantis/Ted Cruz can say inflammatory shit, but at the end of the day, they all either come across as awkward, stumbling dumbasses (there is a difference between this and Trump), or someone who's trying to play dress-up and ACT like Trump. And it's noticeable.

KamikazePotato posted...

Under this logic, any leader of a movement whose movement continues after they die/leave was replaceable. That's not how it works. Some people are so charismatic, so influential, that the mark they made continues after they're gone. Would you say that Martin Luther King Jr wasn't charismatic because the Civil Rights Movement continued after he died?

(If that comparison offends you, well, a lot of the right basically sees Trump as a civil rights leader of sorts)

I don't believe that comparison works because I don't believe Trump will be revered when he's done. I literally think they're going to move on to the next one.

Basically, I think MAGA/America First is bigger than Trump. He was the right person at the right time, but I think they'll be more than willing to move on without a second thought when it's time, and he's not going to become some MLK-esque figure at all. I think he lives in the moment and the moment alone, honestly. Trump gets credit for kicking it off, sure, but I think he pretty much gets forgotten as soon as the next "Chosen One" is chosen. I think Trump thinks this, too, which is why he's so terrified to lose.

KamikazePotato posted...

That's because to you, charisma=well spoken while making a strong point in a non-aggressive manner.

I think you can be charismatic in an aggressive manner! I'll grant you I think Obama is charismatic just because his oratory skills were and are next-level.

KamikazePotato posted...

But just because Trump's charisma isn't FOR YOU, doesn't mean he isn't charismatic.

I mean, I'm open to this idea but I'm trying to drill down on what makes people say this other than post-facto statements like "look at the cult of personality!" My explanation is that he told them what they had primed to want to hear over decades without the usual dogwhistles combined with a lack of shame allowing him to never back down from things other politicians would have apologized for. He was basically saying the crazy shit you'd hear at Thanksgiving and unlike others who'd backtrack or apologize if they were seen as going too far, he'd double down. That was unique in the political sphere at the time and his followers could see that as a defense of their own crazy views they hadn't really seen from a politician before but I don't equate that with charisma. That's all.

xp1337 posted...

Trump just traded the dogwhistle on racism for a bullhorn. His popularity with the right began with questioning Obama's birth certificate and he entered the campaign calling Mexicans rapists. For a base increasingly fed and isolated on AM Radio, Fox, and Breitbart it was like they got the pure stuff instead of the watered down crap the GOP had been giving them because concepts like shame still limited them to some extent.

This is literally charisma.

Trump said out loud the shameful shit that gets other people run out of politics, and not only did people listen, they devoted their fucking lives to him for it.

Right but my (admittedly unprovable) thesis there is that if someone like a Hawley had beaten him to that tactic it likely would have had similar results. I'll grant not anyone could do it and that that delineation is "charisma" but I don't think it's like A-Rank Charisma requirement.

Josh Hawley absolutely does not have the juice.

Heres how you know Trump has charisma:

Even people who hate everything he says continue to talk about him. He drives record numbers of anti-votes at the same time that he draws record numbers of supportive votes.

I also dont understand his charisma, because the circular structure of the way he speaks gives me aneurisms, but clearly to a lot of people it captivates.

Trumpism surviving beyond Trump will be due to the machine they built around him to prop up the message he glommed onto which was never really his in the first place

Jakyl25 posted...

Heres how you know Trump has charisma:

Even people who hate everything he says continue to talk about him. He drives record numbers of anti-votes at the same time that he draws record numbers of supportive votes.

I also dont understand his charisma, because the circular structure of the way he speaks gives me aneurisms, but clearly to a lot of people it captivates.

Trumpism surviving beyond Trump will be due to the machine they built around him to prop up the message he glommed onto which was never really his in the first place

I can agree with all of this, actually, since I can admit he probably does have a charisma that just doesn't make logical sense to me and I'd honestly rather just stop trying to figure it out, but also touches on my point that I don't think "Trumpism" is actually dependent on Trump himself.

red sox 777 posted...

Trump is a master speaker. You can listen to his speeches and hear whatever you want to hear. That is not easy, and very few people can achieve those results.

This is why I have issues listening to him: I come into speeches with no preconceived notions of what I want to hear, so his rambling is just gobbledygook to me. I dont supply a framework for his notions to land on; I can only judge them by their substance. And they have none

Jakyl25 posted...

Even people who hate everything he says continue to talk about him. He drives record numbers of anti-votes at the same time that he draws record numbers of supportive votes.

I officially have no idea what charisma means to you, lol. Being hated and anti-voted by tons and tons of people means you're lacking in charisma! People with lots of charisma are grudging liked by their opponents/enemies!

StealThisSheen posted...

I can agree with all of this, actually, since I can admit he probably does have a charisma that just doesn't make logical sense to me and I'd honestly rather just stop trying to figure it out, but also touches on my point that I don't think "Trumpism" is actually dependent on Trump himself.

It has definitely outgrown the need for him now. 10 years ago it needed him, because these ideas couldnt find an audience without a figurehead.

Hes been so successful at being that figurehead though that the radical white supremacist undercurrent that fed him his message has gained experience, capital, and outreach thanks to him, and are prepared to continue their fight in his eventual absence

Kenri posted...

I officially have no idea what charisma means to you, lol. Being hated and anti-voted by tons and tons of people means you're lacking in charisma! People with lots of charisma are grudging liked by their opponents/enemies!

Having charisma means you cant take your eyes off of someone. They command the room with their presence, positively or negatively.

Take pro wrestling as an example. Would anyone argue that prime Ric Flair had no charisma? Yet he was the most hated heel in the industry

And yes, to invoke Godwins Law, you cannot argue that Hitler had no charisma

Jakyl25 posted...

Having charisma means you cant take your eyes off of someone. They command the room with their presence, positively or negatively.

Screaming toddlers? A lunatic with a gun?

Sensory overload doesnt count

There are plenty of lunatics with guns at every Trump rally, but we still only care about Trump!

I guess I can accept that by that definition he's charismatic. But I think he's far closer to the screaming toddler/lunatic with a gun than you'd care to admit.

I mean no one here thinks Trump is some sort of hidden genius. His rallies consist primarily of verbal diarrhea and racism. It's garbage - which, at the same time, is extremely effective at galvanizing a certain subset of the population. And if another GOP politician had tried the same thing back in 2016, 95% chance they crash and burn.

Other than Trump and Arnie how many Republican politicians do you think could entertainingly host The Apprentice

Kenri posted...

I officially have no idea what charisma means to you, lol. Being hated and anti-voted by tons and tons of people means you're lacking in charisma! People with lots of charisma are grudging liked by their opponents/enemies!

Im glad Jakyl already did it, but this is just totally wrong. It takes charisma to become a dictator (or a God Emperor), and its hard to argue that there are many actual dictators who are grudgingly liked by their enemies.

Charisma means you inspire significant devotion and can persuade people to your side. It doesnt mean all people, just an extraordinary amount.

And I think its basically impossible to argue that a TV show host turned president, whose followers assert to this day ACTUALLY won the electionwhich is going to result in innumerable laws passed to prevent future Republicans from ever losing againwho has influenced entire industries of merch with his name and face in it, is not charismatic.**

**(Intentionally run-on sentenced for effect.)

Kenri posted...

I guess I can accept that by that definition he's charismatic. But I think he's far closer to the screaming toddler/lunatic with a gun than you'd care to admit.

And I think that more anti-Trumpers "grudgingly like" him than you'd care to admit

Seginustemple posted...

Other than Trump and Arnie how many Republican politicians do you think could entertainingly host The Apprentice

There are very few charismatic candidates on either side right now. Dems have Bernie, and maaaaybe AOC. GOP has Trump. That's about it. Biden is probably in the Top 5 right now and that's kind of sad. Desantis might become President or whatever but it definitely won't be because he's charismatic.

Biden had solid charisma as VP

Age has drained his charisma, not his mind as conservatives claim

KamikazePotato posted...

There are very few charismatic candidates on either side right now. Dems have Bernie, and maaaaybe AOC. GOP has Trump. That's about it. Biden is probably in the Top 5 right now and that's kind of sad. Desantis might become President or whatever but it definitely won't be because he's charismatic.

I watched Obama come onto the scene with his famous 2004 DNC speech, feels like the Dems have nothing close to that level of charisma right now. The old boys are past their time and AOC isn't even old enough to run until '28*, if you consider her charismatic.

Remember when Howard Dean's campaign imploded because he got excited and went BYEAHH that one time? Dems could probably use some BYEAHH energy nowadays

*I guess she technically turns 35 a month before the next election, but does anyone think she'll try this time?

I think my argument would have been better stated if, instead of arguing that he, himself, doesn't have charisma, which I accept is incorrect, I should have said that the "charisma" of the Trumpism movement in general has outgrown and surpassed him, and is now its own beast regardless of what charisma he currently has or does not have, and can very much live on without him/with somebody else as the figurehead. I was basically trying to say that the message existed before him, and will live on without him, even though he gave it new life and audience. I shouldn't have said he doesn't have charisma, because he obviously helped feed said message.

Inviso posted...

The thing about Trump, in my opinion, that sets him apart from the countless posers all trying to position themselves as the next Trump, is the television background. He knew how to tailor himself to appeal to an audience because he's done it for years. Someone like MTG/Lauren Boebert or Ron DeSantis/Ted Cruz can say inflammatory shit, but at the end of the day, they all either come across as awkward, stumbling dumbasses (there is a difference between this and Trump), or someone who's trying to play dress-up and ACT like Trump. And it's noticeable.

That makes me think of the jokes in Back to the Future regarding Doc Brown trying to come to grips with Ronald Reagan being a future POTUS.

Also I know I'm well-known on this board for always citing other peoples' opinions, but I can't help but bring up Roger Ebert's review of Wall Street where he discusses how people with a business background are often spoken of as potential candidates for the Presidency because they know how much they can get away with. He even specifically cited Trump! I think Trump even addressed the notion of running for POTUS at the time, and he said he wasn't interested then but he detailed his economic policy and it seemed similar to what he actually did. On another topic, I feel like Trump's election caused Hollywood to look for reasons to expel Harvey Weinstein due to his surface similarities to Trump in background and temperament and boy did they hit the jackpot there.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Josh Hawley absolutely does not have the juice.

Hawley just oozes phoniness

LordoftheMorons posted...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/barry-loudermilk-tour-photos-security-january-6-attacker

Lie, lie, lie, then deny! It's the politician's way. And will he suffer any consequences for it? NOPE!

It seems as though the crux of this argument was not whether or not Trump has charisma, but whether or not people can agree on what charisma is.

Seginustemple posted...

Remember when Howard Dean's campaign imploded because he got excited and went BYEAHH that one time? Dems could probably use some BYEAHH energy nowadays

What's Howard Dean up to these days? Maybe he can run again lol

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It seems as though the crux of this argument was not whether or not Trump has charisma, but whether or not people can agree on what charisma is.

I feel like that's a lot of arguments

https://twitter.com/tripgabriel/status/1537517492830191616?s=21

https://twitter.com/ampol_moment/status/1537586401750958081?s=21&t=-H0zTojTWZNspO7SnWGBYQ

fuckin lmao

Did they swap in a Trump script?

https://twitter.com/DelRey/status/1537800064537710593?t=VkDkShZmrsf69r8s4wvXqQ&s=19

Interesting thread on Amazon worker supply

Ironically, a union could save Amazon from itself.

I get these sense Jeff Bezos would rather let Amazon die, fire everyone, and start a new company called Bamazon than let the workers unionize.

Amazon switched to "Supercycle" shifts, where employees work 4 10 hour days a week. You might think one extra day off sounds nice, but do this for 3+ years and you will burn out. 10 hour shifts turn into 14-16 hour shifts during peak time and suddenly you feel like you spend half your life at a job that pays peanuts.

If you ever think about working those shifts, don't. Each day you work is a physical and mental grind and the days you have off you spend most of the time dreading the time it's time to go back to work. I've had two good friends commit suicide over working 40+ hours a week at these manual labor warehouse jobs. One of them worked at Amazon and he used to be fun to hang out with and game with but his job tore at his soul and couldn't take it anymore. Fuck Amazon and I haven't order and will never order from them again.

4x10 is moderately popular in the white collar space, but sounds like a massive yikes for blue collar jobs

4x10 is cake for office work

For anything taxing your body though it feels like you never recover

Source: Did both in the military

4x10 would certainly be my ideal for a week, because i usually do closer to 5x10 in the office.

I always suspected that the way Amazon treats its workers would catch up eventually, but I never expected it to be before 2025.

https://twitter.com/jason_koebler/status/1537835917452247041?t=kMZgLWMyUxBCm6fRZhrCiQ&s=19

This is a joke, right?

4x10 is goated schedule, I would kill for that.

Also I came here to post that exact same tweet. Its fucking insane the Feds havent stepped in at this point.