Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 390: Where Uvalde Cowboys Gone?

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Jakyl25
06/15/22 8:36:39 PM
#1:


This time isnt different

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masterplum
06/15/22 9:04:16 PM
#2:


https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3524348-fetterman-leads-oz-in-pennsylvania-senate-race-governors-race-tight-poll/

Bigger lead than I anticipated.

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Suprak the Stud
06/15/22 9:10:04 PM
#3:


That seems to good to be true considering Fetterman is still recovering and I dont think hes even been able to campaign yet.

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TheRock1525
06/15/22 10:03:05 PM
#4:


Suprak the Stud posted...
That seems to good to be true considering Fetterman is still recovering and I dont think hes even been able to campaign yet.

Don't think it is. Oz really is a truly terrible candidate in Pennsylvania, and it shows since the poll said only 72% of Republicans plan to support him.

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KamikazePotato
06/15/22 10:13:17 PM
#5:


Even if it did, speaking is probably one of the things Trump is worst at lmao

Continuing this from the last topic

Trump is very good at speaking - again, just not in the way that people in this topic series appreciate. Do you honestly think that so many people would love listening to his stupid fucking rallies if he didn't resonate with them? The fact that he's rambling and saying nothing of substance is immaterial. The literal way he speaks itself is engaging to them, and that's all that matters for most people when choosing who to support.

I feel like people in this topic series categorically do not make an effort to understand why a creature like Trump became influential. You can't just say 'Trump has zero charisma, Trump is bad at speaking' when he has massive popularity among a good 1/3 of the country. Part of it is because he's saying what they want to hear, but the rest of it IS Trump himself. Do you honestly think, say, Ted Cruz would have been able to convince idiots to relate to him, even if he said the exact same thing Trump did?

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LordoftheMorons
06/15/22 10:20:19 PM
#6:


Trump is pretty entertaining if you ignore the horrifying notion that he actually has any power. DeSantis just seems like a douche; nothing charismatic there.

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LordoftheMorons
06/15/22 10:23:32 PM
#7:


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/barry-loudermilk-tour-photos-security-january-6-attacker

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BlAcK TuRtLe
06/15/22 10:24:32 PM
#8:


This feels like the most telling thing. He proved completely and utterly unable to move his followers unless he says exactly what they want to hear.

Not to defend Trump or anything, but you can pretty much say the same about any politician. Bernie Sanders is only popular because of all the college dropouts that love to hear him talk about "erasing" student debts

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 10:24:58 PM
#9:


KamikazePotato posted...
Do you honestly think, say, Ted Cruz would have been able to convince idiots to relate to him, even if he said the exact same thing Trump did?

Yes, actually, 100%.

If Trump stopped saying exactly what they wanted to hear, and if he stopped backpedaling as fast as possible every time he said something they didn't like, they'd 1000% dump his ass for a Cruz or DeSantis who ARE saying what they want to hear.

Again, a charismatic leader leads an audience, not the other way around.

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TheRock1525
06/15/22 10:25:04 PM
#10:


Trump is very charismatic but absolutely is a bad speaker by any metric.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 10:25:45 PM
#11:


BlAcK TuRtLe posted...
Not to defend Trump or anything, but you can pretty much say the same about any politician. Bernie Sanders is only popular because of all the college dropouts that love to hear him talk about "erasing" student debts

I don't think Bernie's charismatic either, no. Actual charismatic politicians are, indeed, rare.

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Xeybozn
06/15/22 10:27:14 PM
#12:


KamikazePotato posted...
The fact that he's rambling and saying nothing of substance is immaterial. The literal way he speaks itself is engaging to them, and that's all that matters for most people when choosing who to support.
Sometimes I wonder how many Americans just aren't capable of following most political speeches. Obviously Trump's speeches are complete nonsense, but could there be a significant amount of voters who basically think that all politicians are constantly spewing similar nonsense word salad with no real meaning?

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 10:30:21 PM
#13:


TheRock1525 posted...
Trump is very charismatic but absolutely is a bad speaker by any metric.

If I was going to make any concession whatsoever, I'd actually say Trump's a better speaker than he is charismatic, since he speaks in a way that his audience relates to.

Being charismatic means you can make people atleast okay with, if not outright for, something they don't want to hear. It means you can sway an audience, it means you can bring them around to your side through pure charm, wit, and what have you.

Trump had failed that numerous times, and the audience has shown a straight up willingness to turn on him for somebody who will continue to say what they want to hear, so I can never be convinced he's charismatic. Any time Trump has said something counter to what his audience wanted to hear, he tucked tail and backpedaled as hard as possible once they booed him. That's not charisma. Somebody charismatic holds onto their viewpoint and convinces everybody else to accept it, or atleast not reject it. He has never been able to do that, he has only ever resonated with people who already hold the same viewpoint.

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red sox 777
06/15/22 10:44:12 PM
#14:


Trump is a master speaker. You can listen to his speeches and hear whatever you want to hear. That is not easy, and very few people can achieve those results.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 10:48:58 PM
#15:


Honestly, thinking about it further, I think the intense rise we've seen in MAGA candidates also goes pretty far to show there's no actual charisma needed. There are countless of these types all over the country, getting the same reactions Trump gets, from the same people, by saying the same things. Are every single one of them charismatic? No, of course not. They're picking up the playbook because it's so easy, frankly. And not all of them are winning because, like Trump, they lack the actual charisma to sway people to their side that aren't already there.

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Kenri
06/15/22 10:55:39 PM
#16:


KamikazePotato posted...
Trump is very good at speaking - again, just not in the way that people in this topic series appreciate. Do you honestly think that so many people would love listening to his stupid fucking rallies if he didn't resonate with them? The fact that he's rambling and saying nothing of substance is immaterial. The literal way he speaks itself is engaging to them, and that's all that matters for most people when choosing who to support.
Again, if all you're arguing is "some people liking the way he speaks == actually being good at speaking" then sure, absolutely I'll concede that. It's also meaningless.

KamikazePotato posted...
You can't just say 'Trump has zero charisma, Trump is bad at speaking' when he has massive popularity among a good 1/3 of the country.
He's so popular that he lost the popular vote to both Clinton and Biden. Are they more charismatic than he is? I'm assuming you don't think so (I think they are but only because it's an insanely low bar) but I'm not sure by what metric Trump qualifies and they don't.

KamikazePotato posted...
Do you honestly think, say, Ted Cruz would have been able to convince idiots to relate to him, even if he said the exact same thing Trump did?
Yes, with zero doubt whatsoever. Especially if he was a reality TV star.

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Paratroopa1
06/15/22 10:58:41 PM
#17:


Kenri posted...
some people liking the way he speaks == actually being good at speaking
That's literally how charisma works
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Kenri
06/15/22 11:04:05 PM
#18:


Paratroopa1 posted...
That's literally how charisma works
I disagree but if that's your argument then sure! I don't find charisma impressive by that definition but it would be undeniable that he (and pretty much every successful presidential candidate) has it.

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Paratroopa1
06/15/22 11:05:12 PM
#19:


I mean if you think Donald Trump is not a charismatic figure, regardless of whether or not you personally find him so, you're lying to yourself and I'm kind of embarrassed for you
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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:06:56 PM
#20:


Paratroopa1 posted...
That's literally how charisma works

I wouldn't say it's necessarily charisma, since being charismatic means more than people liking how you speak, but it does show he's atleast somewhat of an actual good speaker, since part of public speaking is tailoring your message to your audience. I'd argue not all good speakers are charismatic, but all charismatic people are good speakers. You can objectively be a good speaker, but if you fail to actually sway or make any meaningful connection with your audience, you're not charismatic.

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Leafeon13N
06/15/22 11:07:57 PM
#21:


Trump knows how to read a crowd and get them to think he is a god.

Hes not a leader but he is charasmatic.
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Paratroopa1
06/15/22 11:08:18 PM
#22:


Forgive me for suggesting that a man who has completely reshaped all of a single party's politics around him might have the ability to sway people
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Kenri
06/15/22 11:10:32 PM
#23:


Paratroopa1 posted...
I mean if you think Donald Trump is not a charismatic figure, regardless of whether or not you personally find him so, you're lying to yourself and I'm kind of embarrassed for you
??

I just said by your definition he counts. What more do you want me to say?

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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:11:20 PM
#24:


I honestly cant believe people are arguing this.

He is objectively charismatic lol. Just because youre immune to his charms doesnt make it untrue.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:11:25 PM
#25:


Paratroopa1 posted...
Forgive me for suggesting that a man who has completely reshaped all of a single party's politics around him might have the ability to sway people

Who has he swayed, exactly? Who, on the right, can you say with a straight face wasn't already there, or altleast willing to be if needbe?

I'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. If we're dumbing "charismatic" down to mean "You say what the crowd wants to hear and they eat it up because they want to hear it, even if they'll turn on you in no time flat the second you stop saying exactly what they want to hear," then the entire Republican party is charismatic.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:14:22 PM
#26:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
I honestly cant believe people are arguing this.

He is objectively charismatic lol. Just because youre immune to his charms doesnt make it untrue.

...I mean, if so many people are "immune to his charm," wouldn't that suggest he's not as charming as you think? I'm totally lost by this argument.

It's like walking into a room of football fans and saying "Go football!" You're not charismatic if they cheer. You'd be charismatic if you walked into a room of soccer fans and got them to chant "Go American football!" with you.

By all means, by the definition you guys appear to be using, I guess he is charismatic. I just absolutely don't agree with the definition.

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Paratroopa1
06/15/22 11:18:10 PM
#27:


Getting a room of people to cheer for you is definitely not what I mean because literally anyone can do that. Getting people obsessed with you to the point of seeking you out and wanting to attend events where they can cheer for you? That's charisma, and believe me, there is a marked difference between peoples' feelings for someone like Trump and someone like Cruz
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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:21:11 PM
#28:


Paratroopa1 posted...
Getting a room of people to cheer for you is definitely not what I mean because literally anyone can do that. Getting people obsessed with you to the point of seeking you out and wanting to attend events where they can cheer for you? That's charisma, and believe me, there is a marked difference between peoples' feelings for someone like Trump and someone like Cruz

See, I think this is where we disagree. I don't feel the loyalty/devotion to Trump is all that special or unique at all, partly because they've shown such a willingness to turn on him already as soon as he steps out of line with what they expect of him, and partly because we've seen many others like him get similar reactions. Trump's is "special" in that he was the President, and he's clearly been chosen to run again. Were it Cruz that became President and did the exact same thing, I'd bet money Cruz would be in the exact same place Trump is right now. Basically, I think Trump is 100% replaceable. It's the messaging, not Trump. Maybe I'm wrong.

Like, if Trump did start pushing vaccines, and touting common sense gun reform, and even the like, I think they dump his ass cold turkey and move on to Cruz, DeSantis, or whoever takes the mantle.

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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:24:26 PM
#29:


But youre wrong, they literally havent turned on Trump ever.

Them booing for 5 seconds while he opines about the vaccine is not turning on him, because immediately after saying something antithetical to the core of their being he can just say a halfhearted well its your choice and boom, theyre back in the palm of his hand cheering and clapping.


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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:25:19 PM
#30:


Also if you dont think the Trumpian loyalty is at all special or unique, no offense but you are literally insane.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:25:37 PM
#31:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
But youre wrong, they literally havent turned on Trump ever.

Them booing for 5 seconds while he opines about the vaccine is not turning on him, because immediately after saying something antithetical to the core of their being he can just say a halfhearted well its your choice and boom, theyre back in the palm of his hand cheering and clapping.

...Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying? I think it's the messaging, not the man. They boo the man if he speaks the wrong message, and he has to backtrack to the correct one. We've literally never seen what would happen if he DIDN'T backpedal to the correct messaging, because he always does at the mercy of the crowd.

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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:26:55 PM
#32:


I dont even know what to say to something so bizarre.

I guess I need to know what the hell you consider charisma?

Top 5 most charismatic US politicians, go.

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Paratroopa1
06/15/22 11:27:06 PM
#33:


StealThisSheen posted...
Like, if Trump did start pushing vaccines, and touting common sense gun reform, and even the like, I think they dump his ass cold turkey and move on to Cruz, DeSantis, or whoever takes the mantle.
He's already done these things and it never happened. People just like this guy. They like him more than any conservative since Reagan. People don't fucking like Cruz and they don't like DeSantis either - they like the thought of them being in power. They're useful. But they actually LIKE Trump.
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Kenri
06/15/22 11:30:05 PM
#34:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
I dont even know what to say to something so bizarre.

I guess I need to know what the hell you consider charisma?

Top 5 most charismatic US politicians, go.
Washington
Obama
JFK
Reagan
FDR

No order. This is quick and dirty and influenced a lot by me being more familiar with presidents from the last century than older ones.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:30:29 PM
#35:


Paratroopa1 posted...
He's already done these things and it never happened.

No he hasn't. He's said it, they booed him, and he immediately went back on it.

"2+2=5"
"WHOO! DAMN RIGHT IT'S 5!"
"But it might be 4."
"BOOOOO, BOO THIS MAN."
"It's up to you. Many people say it's 5. Good people. I personally believe it's 5."

This is what he does every single time.

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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:34:46 PM
#36:


Your entire case that Trump isnt charismatic is that when hes riffing he tells the crowd exactly what they want to hear?

Just for fun, how many openly anti-Trump Republicans are there in office today?

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:37:44 PM
#37:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Your entire case that Trump isnt charismatic is that when hes riffing he tells the crowd exactly what they want to hear?

If you're at the mercy of the crowd as blatantly as he is, then I don't think you're very charismatic, no. Somebody truly charismatic would keep a crowd even if they said and continued to say something they didn't like, they wouldn't immediately go "oh my bad you guys right." If you can only keep them by saying the right things, I feel they're devoted to the message, not you.

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Dancedreamer
06/15/22 11:39:47 PM
#38:


StealThisSheen posted...
See, I think this is where we disagree. I don't feel the loyalty/devotion to Trump is all that special or unique at all, partly because they've shown such a willingness to turn on him already as soon as he steps out of line with what they expect of him, and partly because we've seen many others like him get similar reactions. Trump's is "special" in that he was the President, and he's clearly been chosen to run again. Were it Cruz that became President and did the exact same thing, I'd bet money Cruz would be in the exact same place Trump is right now.

I'm not sure Ted Cruz would, because Cruz has negative charisma and zero personality. I don't think he'd ever have the same level of popularity. Trump's popularity is mostly in the way people see themselves in him. (This is nothing done on his part, because I don't think he really knows how to take full advantage of it). I'd admit that George W. Bush was a good speaker (even if he could sound like an idiot at times. A lot of that was calculated)

But it's also important to note that Trump has chased people who agree with him out. Chasing away former Republicans. Chasing out moderates. I don't think charismatic people generally turn off people who agree with them. And more would've followed if some people didn't find him useful. He got them what they wanted most: Three SCOTUS seats. Some candidates do gain support from Trump's endorsement, and then some... lose support. People are cultish toward the Republican Party, which can make it appear to be cultish toward Trump (and at some level it is). But whenever he strays from the Republican message (Like when he almost pushed gun control after Parkland. The greatest sin a Republican can commit) they'll cut from him and find some sort of excuse for it.

He does have some strong appeal other candidates don't have. But I don't really think it's charisma or his speaking ability. It's just how brash he is. He says the things they want to be able to say.

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KamikazePotato
06/15/22 11:40:47 PM
#39:


StealThisSheen posted...
Being charismatic means you can make people atleast okay with, if not outright for, something they don't want to hear. It means you can sway an audience, it means you can bring them around to your side through pure charm, wit, and what have you.
This is true to an extent, but I can guarantee you that there exists no Republican politician that can go against the will of their voterbase. Anyone who steps out of line is punished by the indoctrinated. That's simply how their party works, and I don't think there's a person alive charismatic enough to go against it.

StealThisSheen posted...
Who has he swayed, exactly? Who, on the right, can you say with a straight face wasn't already there, or altleast willing to be if needbe?
Trump has swayed a TON of middle-ground folk to the GOP. Mostly people that usually voted Republican regardless, but their previously...I'll say 30% of voting Democratic is now 0.

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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:41:34 PM
#40:


Youve got your order of operations completely out of whack.

The reason they occasionally boo Trump when hes riffing is literally because the thing they want to hear is something he already told them.

The message IS Trump. There are a million other things he riffed into existence that they will literally, say, storm a Capitol over.

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KamikazePotato
06/15/22 11:42:09 PM
#41:


Dancedreamer posted...
But I don't really think it's charisma or his speaking ability. It's just how brash he is. He says the things they want to be able to say.

Being brash is literally both a form of charisma and speaking ability

Not everyone with charisma has to sound like Obama


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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:44:16 PM
#42:


KamikazePotato posted...
Trump has swayed a TON of middle-ground folk to the GOP. Mostly people that usually voted Republican regardless, but their previously...I'll say 30% of voting Democratic is now 0.

And yet Hillary and Biden swayed more, apparently, because they won the popular vote. I think Kenri's question was a good one: Do you think Hillary and Biden are more charismatic than Trump, if such a big part of it is getting people to vote for you?

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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:45:55 PM
#43:


StealThisSheen posted...
And yet Hillary and Biden swayed more, apparently, because they won the popular vote. I think Kenri's question was a good one: Do you think Hillary and Biden are more charismatic than Trump, if such a big part of it is getting people to vote for you?

This is such a ridiculous metric, lol.

Which group, Hillary, Biden, or Trump, do you think has the most devoted followers?

Not in number, ones that are most devoted. Who is it? Youre gonna argue that its Joe fucking Biden because he got more votes?


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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:46:36 PM
#44:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Youve got your order of operations completely out of whack.

The reason they occasionally boo Trump when hes riffing is literally because the thing they want to hear is something he already told them.

The message IS Trump. There are a million other things he riffed into existence that they will literally, say, storm a Capitol over.

Maybe you view people more positively than me, but I don't think most of the people that like Trump had to be convinced on what they want to hear by him at all. He was just the first to openly be willing to say it, which, to be fair, is a form of charisma. I'm not saying he's utterly devoid of the stuff, just not special.

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KamikazePotato
06/15/22 11:47:04 PM
#45:


KamikazePotato posted...
This is true to an extent, but I can guarantee you that there exists no Republican politician that can go against the will of their voterbase. Anyone who steps out of line is punished by the indoctrinated. That's simply how their party works, and I don't think there's a person alive charismatic enough to go against it.
Adding on to this, I'd like to point out that the early GOP absolutely tried to push Trump out of the picture. Basically every candidate hated his guts, and Fox news at the time criticized him heavily. This would have been a death knell for any other politician because of how much Republicans fall in line.

And he still won because the public couldn't get enough of him.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:48:27 PM
#46:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Youre gonna argue that its Joe fucking Biden because he got more votes?

I mean, that was the metric KP used in what Kenri quoted when he first asked the question, so that's what I responded to.

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KamikazePotato
06/15/22 11:49:35 PM
#47:


StealThisSheen posted...
Maybe you view people more positively than me, but I don't think most of the people that like Trump had to be convinced on what they want to hear by him at all. He was just the first to openly be willing to say it, which, to be fair, is a form of charisma. I'm not saying he's utterly devoid of the stuff, just not special.
If someone like Ted Cruz had said the same things as Trump, it would've been 1/10 as effective. Trump somehow has the ability to make the lowest common denominator think they're just like them. Probably because he has the overconfident swagger of a manchild who doesn't know better - which yes, resonates with quite a few people in the US, white males especially. To them, Ted Cruz is always going to be a suit, no matter what he says. Trump is 'relatable'. So when Trump says what they want to hear, they actually believe that he believes what he's saying.

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ChaosTonyV4
06/15/22 11:50:58 PM
#48:


StealThisSheen posted...
Maybe you view people more positively than me, but I don't think most of the people that like Trump had to be convinced on what they want to hear by him at all. He was just the first to openly be willing to say it, which, to be fair, is a form of charisma. I'm not saying he's utterly devoid of the stuff, just not special.

I just dont see how you can see the absolutely insane state of our country, the MAGA and Trump flags fucking everywhere, the slavish devotion of 9/10 Republican politicians (and how many of those 1s are openly anti-him?), and think he is not special to them.

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StealThisSheen
06/15/22 11:51:32 PM
#49:


I'll just agree to disagree overall.

I think it's especially why we're so fucked, because even after Trump is out of the picture, the same people will just rally around the next "Trump" in the exact same way. It's why "MAGA" and "America First" is so popular, anybody will be able to pick it up afterwards and get the same treatment, and we'll be fucked for years because Democrats suck at combating it.

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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
Step FOUR! Get Paid!
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Paratroopa1
06/15/22 11:53:11 PM
#50:


I seriously cannot believe you actually think that Donald Trump is just a random replacement-level guy
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