Poll of the Day > Do politics in the US make any sense?

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/15/22 2:11:09 PM
#1:


Maybe this is an effect of "the internet is not real life". Where an issue will get more attention than regular people actually give it. But it seems to me that positions are the reverse of what would be expected.

The conservative view is that the country has limited resources. And those resources should be used to the benefit of the citizens it currently has. So for an issue like immigration where someone could become a citizen they want to limit how many do and thus preserve the ability of the country to do good over a longer time frame, even if they are not able to do much good from moment to moment.

In contrast the progressive view is opposed to national identity. If they care about citizenship or resource management it's to direct resources to non-citizens. They want to help the unfortunate and defenseless above all else. So for an issue like immigration they want to do good for the greatest number of people now, without regard for maintain their ability to do so later.

Then an issue like Roe V Wade gains prominence and they swap positions.

According to the 14 amendment "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States" Therefore anyone not born nor naturalized is not a citizen. Conservatives limit naturalization but want more people to be born as citizens even if they are unwanted and will become a drain on the resources of the country.

Progressives normally favor the rights of the more vulnerable over the rights of anyone seen as having power. However, the more vulnerable in this case aren't seen as having rights at all. Or maybe they view the unborn as wielding power... While progressives tend to be consistent in who they view as weaker or stronger, how they arrive at this hierarchy is a mystery to anyone who isn't them, as such the contradiction is more difficult to explain without using a perspective that isn't theirs. The position of the progressives seems to be to stop the unborn from potentially reaching a stage where they would care about them.

In summary:
Conservatives care about citizens. The unborn are not citizens. Yet they have rights that supersede citizens.
Progressives care a bout the weak. The unborn are not weak in their view???

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VampireCoyote
05/15/22 2:18:03 PM
#2:


No.

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agesboy
05/15/22 2:31:25 PM
#3:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The unborn are not weak in their view???
the unborn do not exist yet, so they can't be strong or weak. do you think millions of potential lives are being lost when people crank it or something

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/15/22 2:57:32 PM
#4:


I would say no. But I was trying to present it from their perspective to show the contradiction. So I don't know how a conservative would answer that.

If I were to argue that I would point out that human effort, like IVF, would be needed to cause cranking it to lead to an individual life. Where as if there's already a pregnancy that condition has the potential to lead to an individual life without human effort.

I think the argument is about at what point potential becomes actual. The way I phrased the perspective avoids that and focuses on when that life becomes subject to the law.

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BlackScythe0
05/15/22 3:00:17 PM
#5:


Nothing skard said made sense
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VampireCoyote
05/15/22 3:17:55 PM
#6:


Theres too many human beings. Not enough bathrooms.

otherwise all these little crotchfruits are gonna keep just appearing more and more and wreck up the whole joint

stem the tide. Allow abortions

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DevilSummoner1
05/15/22 3:19:34 PM
#7:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Nothing skard said made sense

it never does
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Zareth
05/15/22 4:33:55 PM
#8:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Nothing skard said made sense

DevilSummoner1 posted...
it never does


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#9
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Zareth
05/15/22 4:37:56 PM
#10:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Nothing short of a violent revolution would make that happen. And the people revolting would all die.

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#11
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Gaawa_chan
05/15/22 4:49:33 PM
#12:


The only reasons to take your fearmongering about resources seriously are the wastefulness of our economy and the obscene inaction on climate change. This is entirely the fault of wealthy people making fucking terrible, short-term, self-centered decisions and now wanting to slam the doors in a continued effort to avoid fixing the messes they've made. No, immigrants and refugees should not have to pay the price for their assholery; we should take dramatic action to make our country more sustainable.

The USA has plenty of resources and immigrants and refugees are a fundamental, honorable part of USA history, economy, and culture.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

It's literally irrelevant. Under any other circumstance, we do not use the State to force people to preserve others at their own bodily expense. You are not forced to give blood (far less dangerous, saves more people, doesn't permanently maim your body) or organs (corpses don't even use them and we still don't mandate this) and you are allowed to defend yourself when someone is hurting your body.

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ParanoidObsessive
05/15/22 5:13:59 PM
#13:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Do politics in the US make any sense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIgSTjzrmRg

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#14
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Gaawa_chan
05/15/22 5:41:11 PM
#15:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Never, because it would supersede the consideration of the person who they are leeching off of.

While it sounds like you are for abortion being morally permissible though all nine months, many disagree.
I hadn't noticed.

many have a point at when they feel the pregnancy should be carried to term because the child has developed into someone worthy of moral consideration.
Late-term abortions occur because:
  1. something has gone wrong, in which case people like you should stfu and leave these people alone. They have enough shit on their plates without fuckers calling them murderers.
  2. anti-abortion assholes made policies that interfered with their ability to get an abortion earlier, in which case, yet again, people like you should stfu and leave these people alone.


I don't agree with your framing about the State forcing people.
I'm sorry that reality is so hard for you to accept.

The state isn't impregnating people.
I don't think I've ever seen someone make an argument that we should punish the men for abortions.

People are coming to the state demanding a medical procedure. The state is well within its rights to say, "we don't do that here because it ends a human life."
Yeah, and so does your choice to not donate blood, to not donate organs, to not damage your body to preserve someone else, but the State still affords you that autonomy and medical consideration, whereas you think it's just fine to use State violence to force people to risk their health and life to preserve a fetus.

Are you pro universal health care (honestly if you aren't then you have no fucking business advocating for forced pregnancies and births, that's fucking disgusting)? Are you anti-dealth penalty? Do you believe that all humans should be entitled to basic necessities? "Pro-life as long as it only applies to a fetus in someone else's body." Wow, so pro-life. Pat yourself on the back, you've saved so many lives by *checks notes* ensuring that the government will mandate that people's bodies be permanently mutilated against their will on pain of State violence.

You know, my younger sibling was first raped when she was in kindergarten. She got her period at eight. You don't seem to give a shit about what pregnancy and birth do to an adult's body so I guess you probably don't care about what it does to a child's body, because then it would be really obvious that you have no idea wtf you're talking about and that you have no business chiming in on what medical procedures people should have legal access to. When she was 13, she developed endometriosis. Endometriosis is a torturous cancer-lite condition that can only be properly diagnosed (and usually only properly treated) through surgery. Doctors refused to perform the diagnostic surgery because they didn't want to potentially hurt her ability to carry her future man's baby. No. Fuck that. People's carrying capacity for fetuses does not outweigh their own medical needs. A fetus does not outweigh the medical needs of its host. The State, insurance companies, fuck, even doctors, have no business, at all, picking and choosing what medical care to prevent permanent damage to a person's body someone arbitrarily "deserves."

This always, ALWAYS happens in gynecological care. "Your future man might not want you to get that, so we're denying you the medical care you need." Fuck off. FUCK OFF. It's THEIR body. No doctor, no company, no government has any fucking business blocking people's medical care based off of arbitrary, subjective bullshit. You pointing out that "some people disagree with you" is an argument in favor of MY position, because my position is one of choice. If they don't want an abortion, they don't have to get one.

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#16
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MrMelodramatic
05/15/22 6:03:42 PM
#17:


The OP is nonsense

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/16/22 12:10:42 PM
#18:


DevilSummoner1 posted...
it never does
Thanks, I pride myself on consistency.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

That's what I'm saying is swapped. Someone that is not a person worthy of moral consideration is in a lesser position than someone who is, and a progressive should want to protect them more as conservatives do. But if you replace person with citizen you have the conservative view on immigration being the same mindset as held by progressives.

Gaawa_chan posted...
The only reasons to take your fearmongering about resources seriously
No one is saying resources are scarce, just finite.

Gaawa_chan posted...
The USA has plenty of resources
The USA has sufficient resources for a lot of things, but not sufficient for everything they would like to do with them. As I understand the conservative view this is solved by addressing the problems of citizens before using them for the benefit of other people.

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Judgmenl
05/16/22 12:11:01 PM
#19:


Politics in the US are working as intended.

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GGuirao13
05/23/22 4:30:53 AM
#20:


Politics is stupid and senseless in general.

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Yellow
05/23/22 4:57:44 AM
#21:


Tl Dr.

Anyway it does make sense in the sense that this has happened several times before, virtually every time countries fall to an extreme right fascism, the liberal moderates do a pitiful job being a slight inconvenience to the people who would literally have them dead in a camp without even thinking about it twice, mostly because they themselves are too corrupt and stupid in a time of extreme income inequality.

People think history never goes backward, but that's not the case. The Fascists have literally already attempted a violent coup. They're going to do it again and again until they succeed, and at that point you had better get your LGBTQ friends to Canada.

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Count_Drachma
05/23/22 5:13:36 AM
#22:


US politics makes about as much sense as politics anywhere else. If it seems convoluted, so is trying to represent the will of hundreds of millions of people with different ideas, beliefs, motivations, creeds, etc.

The only time when it's not convoluted is when maybe when a monarch or dictator is completely ignoring the will of the people.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The conservative view is that the country has limited resources. And those resources should be used to the benefit of the citizens it currently has. So for an issue like immigration where someone could become a citizen they want to limit how many do and thus preserve the ability of the country to do good over a longer time frame, even if they are not able to do much good from moment to moment.

In contrast the progressive view is opposed to national identity. If they care about citizenship or resource management it's to direct resources to non-citizens. They want to help the unfortunate and defenseless above all else. So for an issue like immigration they want to do good for the greatest number of people now, without regard for maintain their ability to do so later.

I feel like you've fundamentally misstated any number of positions, particularly since the left tends to advance recycling and conservation measures based on the idea of limited resources and limited space.

And pragmatically speaking, if immigrants voted and thought the same as conservatives while fully embracing their ideologies and instantly providing a net benefit, you'd very quickly see liberals and progressives trying to limit immigration. Hell, the progressives might try to outright block it if immigrants threatened their political agendas.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


It would change things, but it wouldn't exactly fix things.


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Count_Drachma
05/23/22 5:15:04 AM
#23:


Yellow posted...
Tl Dr.

Anyway it does make sense in the sense that this has happened several times before, virtually every time countries fall to an extreme right fascism, the liberal moderates do a pitiful job being a slight inconvenience to the people who would literally have them dead in a camp without even thinking about it twice, mostly because they themselves are too corrupt and stupid in a time of extreme income inequality.

People think history never goes backward, but that's not the case. The Fascists have literally already attempted a violent coup. They're going to do it again and again until they succeed, and at that point you had better get your LGBTQ friends to Canada. Say, next time they have more people in power to put their hands on the scale.

...meanwhile, on planet Earth, far from Yellow's homeworld...

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Yellow
05/23/22 5:23:21 AM
#24:


Count_Drachma posted...
...meanwhile, on planet Earth, far from Yellow's homeworld...
No. The liberals do not address the ails of the working class, they do not care about the rust belt. The Conservative party is a criminal organization made of Fascists. They want to overthrow Democracy because they are evil. People choose the Fascists over the Liberals. A two party system with the lesser of two evils.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is because the fact of the matter is that Fascism always starts the same way, with extreme wealth inequality.

I don't know if you've ever been to the south, but they aren't exactly doing well in terms of "wealth" or "schools" or "jobs".

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Yellow
05/23/22 5:27:36 AM
#25:


Anyway, they tried once, they are still riled up about it, I don't know what's supposed to make me unreasonable for thinking they'd do it again.

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/23/22 9:08:51 AM
#26:


Yellow posted...
Anyway it does make sense in the sense that this has happened several times before, virtually every time countries fall to an extreme right fascism, the liberal moderates do a pitiful job being a slight inconvenience
I think you have that backward. In the US the extreme left have taken over and the right are completely ineffective.

Yellow posted...
The liberals do not address the ails of the working class
Who are the liberals? Both major parties in the US are authoritarian.

Yellow posted...
The Conservative party is a criminal organization made of Fascists. They want to overthrow Democracy because they are evil.
It was the progressive party that oppose free speech, due process, and equal treatment under the law. They want to overthrow Democracy. The conservative party isn't really doing anything to stop them.

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agesboy
05/24/22 3:37:05 AM
#27:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I think you have that backward. In the US the extreme left have taken over and the right are completely ineffective.
are you living in a different timeline from the rest of us where bernie sanders was elected god-emperor for life or something

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/24/22 9:05:13 AM
#28:


agesboy posted...
are you living in a different timeline from the rest of us where bernie sanders was elected god-emperor for life or something
No... Why? What have the conservative party in your timeline done lately?

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Lokarin
05/24/22 9:26:18 AM
#29:


?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG32nf3tCyw

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DrunkCaveman
05/24/22 10:26:31 AM
#30:


TC I'm assuming you aren't American, your take on American politics is out there to say the least. I only read the first post but the things you think you grasp, you don't. Have you had anybody to bounce your ideas off of? When isolated, it's very easy to take an inaccurate assumption and build a large argument on it, wasting your time and the time of anyone you share it with
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agesboy
05/24/22 2:13:09 PM
#31:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
No... Why? What have the conservative party in your timeline done lately?
repealed roe v wade and stepped up attacks on trans rights on a nationwide level? hello?

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VampireCoyote
05/24/22 2:14:55 PM
#32:


Attempted to end democracy, AKA treason

thats a recent thing they did

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Llamachama
05/24/22 2:34:25 PM
#33:


Term limits.

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Zareth
05/24/22 4:02:27 PM
#34:


Llamachama posted...
Abolish electoral college.

Term limits.
The only people capable of doing those things also directly benefit from them. It's like letting a child choose what he has for dessert every night, and only letting the same child choose when he gives up his dessert choosing privileges.

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Lokarin
05/24/22 4:07:36 PM
#35:


The problem with the college is first past the post, have one or the other - not both

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ParanoidObsessive
05/24/22 5:48:50 PM
#36:


The real problem with doing away with the Electoral College is that it requires a degree of responsibility on the part of the voter base that the voting base has never shown itself capable of.

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VampireCoyote
05/24/22 5:58:08 PM
#37:


I support every elected official to receive a stone cold stunner no mercy for the elderly

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ParanoidObsessive
05/24/22 6:05:02 PM
#38:


VampireCoyote posted...
I support every elected official to receive a stone cold stunner no mercy for the elderly

https://youtu.be/KfhBLil_zjk?t=57

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/24/22 7:28:40 PM
#39:


agesboy posted...
repealed roe v wade and stepped up attacks on trans rights on a nationwide level? hello?
oh... that hasn't happened yet in my timeline.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/what-roe-v-wade-overturned-explained-b2081140.html
However, until the high court reaches that decision, Roe v Wade is still the law of the land.

What effect did that have in your timeline?

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/24/22 7:35:21 PM
#40:


Llamachama posted...
Abolish electoral college.
In school I was taugh one person one vote. With electoral college that one vote in one state is not equal to one vote in another state. Though I guess I must have been taught wrong since in the US states elect the president, not the citizens.

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Lokarin
05/24/22 8:52:17 PM
#41:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
oh... that hasn't happened yet in my timeline.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/what-roe-v-wade-overturned-explained-b2081140.html
However, until the high court reaches that decision, Roe v Wade is still the law of the land.

What effect did that have in your timeline?

In every other country people would say "who cares about Roe v Wade, they've both been dead for like 20 years" because... y'all precedent system is weird

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BlackScythe0
05/24/22 9:38:28 PM
#42:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
In school I was taugh one person one vote. With electoral college that one vote in one state is not equal to one vote in another state. Though I guess I must have been taught wrong since in the US states elect the president, not the citizens.

Well yea they don't like to talk about the time when there were people worth 3/5 of a person for representation.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/25/22 12:20:10 AM
#43:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Well yea they don't like to talk about the time when there were people worth 3/5 of a person for representation.
I think I know what you're referencing and it seems to me that people like nothing more than to talk about that time and will bring it up every chance the get.

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agesboy
05/25/22 1:34:58 AM
#44:


maybe you should read up about it if you're unsure, because you seem wholly disconnected from American politics and history as a whole yet have very strong opinions regardless

that shit is middle school-level history

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SKARDAVNELNATE
05/25/22 6:42:22 PM
#45:


agesboy posted...
you seem wholly disconnected from American politics and history
I don't care about history. I care about what's happening now.

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Zareth
05/25/22 6:43:08 PM
#46:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I don't care about history. I care about what's happening now.
Because what's happening now and history aren't related in any means whatsoever.

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VampireCoyote
05/25/22 7:36:00 PM
#47:


Zareth posted...
Because what's happening now and history aren't related in any means whatsoever.

Those who forget history, are doomed to eat at Burger King

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