Poll of the Day > The regen at level up is a weird perk to me.

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hypnox
05/13/22 12:20:12 AM
#1:


In most games with level systems you regen all your resources at level up. Fighting a group of enemies thats about to kill you? Good thing you're at 99% and were able to level up before that final blow.

I mean yeah, the feature is nice. But doesn't really make much sense does it? It's not like that in the real world. In a sword fight and had your arm sliced up, but hey, in the fight you finally "leveled up" and understand how to perry properly doesn't magically heal your wounded arm.

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papercup
05/13/22 12:24:01 AM
#2:


This doesn't happen in Kingdom Hearts. All you get is one stat point or an ability. In fact, the fastest way to level up is wear Exp Chance, go to a high level world. Get below 25% health and spam Thundaga on every enemy you see.

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The_Viscount
05/13/22 12:24:46 AM
#3:


If your overall health increases, your remaining health should increase proportionate to the adjusted amount. You aren't healing anything, you're just capable of sustaining more damage.

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ParanoidObsessive
05/13/22 12:31:31 AM
#4:


hypnox posted...
I mean yeah, the feature is nice. But doesn't really make much sense does it? It's not like that in the real world.

To be fair, the entire concept of leveling up doesn't make real world sense either.

Right now, I don't speak Chinese. 30 seconds from now, after I've stabbed a rat, I suddenly understand all of the complex mechanics an interactions of the language out of nowhere. A minute ago, I had no way to get into a locked door, but fortunately I discovered a new location, pinged a level up, and suddenly learned the basics of lockpicking by somehow magically pulling the knowledge out of the ether.

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Metalsonic66
05/13/22 1:25:30 AM
#5:


It's saved me more than once

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keyblader1985
05/13/22 1:32:13 AM
#6:


Acceptable Breaks from Reality

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darkknight109
05/13/22 3:37:13 AM
#7:


hypnox posted...
But doesn't really make much sense does it?
Neither does levelling up.

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PMarth2002
05/13/22 4:05:00 AM
#8:


Not sure i'd say it happens in most of
ParanoidObsessive posted...
To be fair, the entire concept of leveling up doesn't make real world sense either.

Right now, I don't speak Chinese. 30 seconds from now, after I've stabbed a rat, I suddenly understand all of the complex mechanics an interactions of the language out of nowhere. A minute ago, I had no way to get into a locked door, but fortunately I discovered a new location, pinged a level up, and suddenly learned the basics of lockpicking by somehow magically pulling the knowledge out of the ether.

The most realistic system is generally the ones where the more you do something, the better you get at it. Those just don't tend to be very fun cause they get real grindy.

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VampireCoyote
05/13/22 5:12:28 AM
#9:


When you learn something new and feel stronger, your wounds heal. Its because of the blood-brain barrier.

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DeSantis2024
05/13/22 7:29:17 AM
#10:


I like it. Helped me out many a time.
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FrozenBananas
05/13/22 7:31:21 AM
#11:


DeSantis2024 posted...
I like it. Helped me out many a time.

same. Its not supposed to make sense. Its a reward

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Far-Queue
05/13/22 7:43:10 AM
#12:


hypnox posted...
doesn't really make much sense does it? It's not like that in the real world.
Yeah, I hate when I'm battling a zombie dragon that farts poison bubbles, using a magic toothbrush bequeathed to me by a trash golem named Gorlog to slowly whittle down the dragon's health, and I level up in the middle of the fight and gain all my HP back

Nothing like how it is when I do this in real life

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SunWuKung420
05/13/22 8:03:12 AM
#13:


I'm fully regen'ed every morning I wake up. Why are you debuffed?

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Nade Duck
05/13/22 8:16:54 AM
#14:


i also dislike fun things.

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Philip027
05/13/22 8:40:44 AM
#15:


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LevelUpFillUp

This happens presumably because leveling up only to immediately die anyway is kind of a buzzkill. I just think of it as a sort of second wind.
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LinkPizza
05/13/22 8:50:59 AM
#16:


hypnox posted...
In most games with level systems you regen all your resources at level up. Fighting a group of enemies thats about to kill you? Good thing you're at 99% and were able to level up before that final blow.

I mean yeah, the feature is nice. But doesn't really make much sense does it? It's not like that in the real world. In a sword fight and had your arm sliced up, but hey, in the fight you finally "leveled up" and understand how to perry properly doesn't magically heal your wounded arm.

But people dont level up the same way in a video game vs real life But it makes sense in the video game world. Plus, the healing in video games is already weird in most cases. So, this isnt super weird. And its a way to help the player

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streamofthesky
05/13/22 5:39:19 PM
#17:


Still not as silly as having your character step on an apple that's randomly strewn on the battlefield and instantly heal upon doing so.

In any case, I like it overall. Feels like hax when you get Saved By The Level Up at a crucial moment.
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VampireCoyote
05/13/22 5:42:15 PM
#18:


streamofthesky posted...
Still not as silly as having your character step on an apple that's randomly strewn on the battlefield and instantly heal upon doing so.

yeah keep it realistic like with Castlevanias wall turkeys

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Revelation34
05/14/22 12:20:11 AM
#19:


streamofthesky posted...
Still not as silly as having your character step on an apple that's randomly strewn on the battlefield and instantly heal upon doing so.

In any case, I like it overall. Feels like hax when you get Saved By The Level Up at a crucial moment.


What game does this?

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shadowsword87
05/14/22 12:24:59 AM
#20:


The weirdness is that damage is tied to HP loss.
If you're at 20/20 HP, and you level up and get +5 hp, you're walking into the game with 20/25 HP. That implies you're hurt in some way.

Which leveling up is inherently dumb, so just handwaving it so you get regened is fine to me.
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FatalAccident
05/14/22 12:45:10 AM
#21:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
To be fair, the entire concept of leveling up doesn't make real world sense either.

*walks away*

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ParanoidObsessive
05/14/22 12:46:22 AM
#22:


shadowsword87 posted...
The weirdness is that damage is tied to HP loss.
If you're at 20/20 HP, and you level up and get +5 hp, you're walking into the game with 20/25 HP. That implies you're hurt in some way.

Which gets into the problems HP has as as concept overall. Where you are generally completely fine and not really impaired in any meaningful way as you are constantly being shot, stabbed, or set on fire - but then you essentially stub your toe and die as you lose your last hit point.

Even games that include some form of physical penalty to characters with low HP (like Fallout using limb damage and applying drawbacks for crippled status) rarely do it realistically or gradually - it's an all-or-nothing thing. Which isn't really how any of this works in real life.

HP is so stupid as a concept that some games like D&D have started leaning into the idea that it isn't actually health as much as stamina - so it's less that you're walking around with massive flesh wounds and slowly bleeding out and more just you're exerting yourself so badly that you're using up your metabolic life energy. Though that still doesn't explain why you can potentially die from "passing out" when you hit 0 HP. And it still doesn't really justify why someone with 1/100 HP is still just as physically capable and energetic as someone with 100/100 HP, but losing that final HP is what instantly knocks you out/kills you.

The real answer, of course, is that these are all just game abstractions.

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shadowsword87
05/14/22 12:53:04 AM
#23:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Which gets into the problems HP has as as concept overall. Where you are generally completely fine and not really impaired in any meaningful way as you are constantly being shot, stabbed, or set on fire - but then you essentially stub your toe and die as you lose your last hit point.

Even games that include some form of physical penalty to characters with low HP (like Fallout using limb damage and applying drawbacks for crippled status) rarely do it realistically or gradually - it's an all-or-nothing thing. Which isn't really how any of this works in real life.

HP is so stupid as a concept that some games like D&D have started leaning into the idea that it isn't actually health as much as stamina - so it's less that you're walking around with massive flesh wounds and slowly bleeding out and more just you're exerting yourself so badly that you're using up your metabolic life energy. Though that still doesn't explain why you can potentially die from "passing out" when you hit 0 HP. And it still doesn't really justify why someone with 1/100 HP is still just as physically capable and energetic as someone with 100/100 HP, but losing that final HP is what instantly knocks you out/kills you.

The real answer, of course, is that these are all just game abstractions.

Yeah, starfinder actually had what I think is the best implementation of HP. There were two HP pools, sort of a stamina pool and physical damage. The stamina HP pool is sort of a floating HP for "oh fuck that was close" damage, and then physical damage where getting hit with a big hammer will crush your skull instead of bounce off of big strong muscles.
The stamina pool would grow with leveling up, but the physical damage is when things get really serious and medical treatment is needed.

Of course, the real answer is leveless systems. Call of Cthulhu doesn't have HP bloat where people have around 8-11 "real" hit points, and guns deal 2d6 at minimum, and a shotgun can blast a hole in someone for 4d8.
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Philip027
05/14/22 12:59:53 AM
#24:


shadowsword87 posted...
The weirdness is that damage is tied to HP loss.
If you're at 20/20 HP, and you level up and get +5 hp, you're walking into the game with 20/25 HP. That implies you're hurt in some way.

Which leveling up is inherently dumb, so just handwaving it so you get regened is fine to me.

Level up HP recovery isn't an all or nothing thing. Some games take the approach of healing you but only by however much HP you gained from the level up, such as Pokemon. So basically, if you weren't hurt before the level up, you won't be hurt afterward.
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ParanoidObsessive
05/14/22 1:53:09 AM
#25:


shadowsword87 posted...
Yeah, starfinder actually had what I think is the best implementation of HP. There were two HP pools, sort of a stamina pool and physical damage.

And then there's this game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelords_(role-playing_game)

The rules in that game keep track of what part of your body is being hit, what sort of damage it's being hit with, how much damage that specific part has already taken, and then factors all of that into your overall health. Specifically:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelords_(role-playing_game)#Combat

The downside was that everything was so damned complicated, you basically needed an advanced degree in calculus to play it. Which is why, in spite of the fact that I loved the setting/concept, I never used the actual rules. I always just ported it to other systems or straight up free-formed it.

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Gaawa_chan
05/14/22 2:35:44 AM
#26:


I guess it depends on the system in question whether or not such a thing is appropriate.

Like... in classic titles, dungeons and such were basically massive battles of attrition that tested not just whether or not you could win a fight, but whether or not you could manage your resources through a sequence.

A lot of modern systems seem to focus more on individual fights, and a regen system makes more sense when you do that, but it also means that you can't easily make a... "challenging dungeon" per se, since the attrition aspect of dungeons has been nerfed when you have a regen system.

I think there are ups and downs to both, though I do think I prefer it when regen isn't there.

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ParanoidObsessive
05/14/22 10:28:27 AM
#27:


Gaawa_chan posted...
but it also means that you can't easily make a... "challenging dungeon" per se, since the attrition aspect of dungeons has been nerfed when you have a regen system.

What really nerfs attrition in current D&D is the fact that 5e is designed around a specific number of encounters per short/long rest, and very few groups actually play that way. Especially ones influenced by watching online games.

Basically, most players are resting too much and recovering abilities more often than they should, unless they've specifically got a DM who wants to emphasize attrition and exhaustion and resource management and environmental penalties (ie, DMs who basically want to run a survival game).

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Blightzkrieg
05/14/22 10:32:30 AM
#28:


It's about making the levelling process feel rewarding. Especially in games where the gap between levels is very minor and gradual, receiving an immediate tangible reward for levelling up makes progress more engaging.

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Revelation34
05/14/22 10:33:49 AM
#29:


ParanoidObsessive posted...


What really nerfs attrition in current D&D is the fact that 5e is designed around a specific number of encounters per short/long rest, and very few groups actually play that way. Especially ones influenced by watching online games.

Basically, most players are resting too much and recovering abilities more often than they should, unless they've specifically got a DM who wants to emphasize attrition and exhaustion and resource management and environmental penalties (ie, DMs who basically want to run a survival game).


It's more realistic for people to want to rest after a hard challenge.

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VampireCoyote
05/14/22 10:42:19 AM
#30:


I played back during 3.5 and we always just ignored rules that made the game less fun. Our DM never made us do annoying things like purchase regular arrows and if our party rested we would heal back to full health unless someone got seriously wounded. Back then you would only heal like 1 go per day according to the game rules.

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streamofthesky
05/14/22 10:49:06 AM
#31:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
What really nerfs attrition in current D&D is the fact that 5e is designed around a specific number of encounters per short/long rest, and very few groups actually play that way. Especially ones influenced by watching online games.

Basically, most players are resting too much and recovering abilities more often than they should, unless they've specifically got a DM who wants to emphasize attrition and exhaustion and resource management and environmental penalties (ie, DMs who basically want to run a survival game).
Last time I DM'd (3.5), I found that people will heal stick (wands of cure light wounds or lesser vigor) themselves back to full after every fight. There wasn't much point trying to attrition them by health loss... which I was fine with, I can understand refusing to go on when your health is low. Only exception was long excursions from civilization where they might actually run thru their wand supply over the course of days. Attrition was more about spells and other daily resources. Which I think is better anyway, since then the non-casters feel closer to parity w/ the casters, who either limit themselves to retain a bunch of spells for the big battles later or get to shine early and then are forced to a support role when they run low. (I heavily encouraged use of Reserve feats and the like)

I did my best to ramp up the encounters, but it is a tough thing to force. I tried to have a lot of time critical missions where they had no choice but to rush an entire dungeon or whatever in a single day or a set number of days (wasn't uncommon to have like 11 combat encounters in a day; I REALLY wanted the non-casters to not be overshadowed, lol).
And when they'd be traveling for several days, I'd pack every single random encounter on the same day, so the casters couldn't just gleefully nuke them one or two per day.
My game was also heavily inspired by Suikoden, including recruitment / HQ / large scale army battles (using a completely different system I made up). Sometimes, to reflect expended resources from the battle... especially when they lost an army battle (which was not a "game over", just meant they'd be in dire straights in the aftermath), I'd require them to start out w/ half or 3/4 or whatever their normal daily resources (so like... if they'd normally have five level 3 spells, they'd have three, etc...)

It's definitely a pain in the ass to enforce attrition and not let them just rest constantly and leave the caster stupidly OP. If I ever DM again, I'm nerfing all the casters' spells per day so I don't have to bother trying to force a long adventuring day anymore.
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shadowsword87
05/14/22 10:54:15 AM
#32:


Revelation34 posted...
It's more realistic for people to want to rest after a hard challenge.

...Yeah if you want a realistic hard challange, you should not play 5e.
There's plenty of other good B/X games.
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Revelation34
05/14/22 11:01:20 AM
#33:


shadowsword87 posted...


...Yeah if you want a realistic hard challange, you should not play 5e.
There's plenty of other good B/X games.


I'm talking logically. Unless there's somehow a hoard of monsters constant attacking then wanting to rest is far more realistic.

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shadowsword87
05/14/22 11:07:28 AM
#34:


Revelation34 posted...
I'm talking logically. Unless there's somehow a hoard of monsters constant attacking then wanting to rest is far more realistic.

Yes.
Modern DnD is fantasy superheroes now, when before it was big scary world.

Realism isn't a factor.
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Revelation34
05/14/22 11:51:34 AM
#35:


shadowsword87 posted...


Yes.
Modern DnD is fantasy superheroes now, when before it was big scary world.

Realism isn't a factor.

If monsters were ever a serious problem in fantasy settings like that then there would literally be no huge cities because it would be impossible to have any.

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SomeUsername529
05/14/22 12:58:56 PM
#36:


hypnox posted...
But doesn't really make much sense does it? It's not like that in the real world.
Gonna join the train of people pointing out that this is a really really dumb reason to be bothered by this.
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shadowsword87
05/14/22 1:33:22 PM
#37:


Revelation34 posted...
If monsters were ever a serious problem in fantasy settings like that then there would literally be no huge cities because it would be impossible to have any.

I mean, it depends on how frequent and how dangerous really.
We do live in a world with powerful monsters that can easily kill humans, panthers, black bears, tigers, hippos, and so on. But they aren't frequent and require a large ecosystem to sustain them outside of human settlements.

If you want "big scary world" as a theme, then you just make the monsters infrequent and terrifying.
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The_Viscount
05/15/22 1:24:02 AM
#38:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
To be fair, the entire concept of leveling up doesn't make real world sense either.

Right now, I don't speak Chinese. 30 seconds from now, after I've stabbed a rat, I suddenly understand all of the complex mechanics an interactions of the language out of nowhere. A minute ago, I had no way to get into a locked door, but fortunately I discovered a new location, pinged a level up, and suddenly learned the basics of lockpicking by somehow magically pulling the knowledge out of the ether.

Depends on the level-up system.

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