Board 8 > MCU General 8 - Ms. Marvel bringing the Love, She-Hulk bringing the Thunder

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mnkboy907
06/18/22 12:57:56 PM
#303:


Doctor Strange in 2 days!

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IfGodCouldDie
06/18/22 1:01:25 PM
#304:


mnkboy907 posted...
Doctor Strange in 2 days!
Oh yea thats definitely going to get a rewatch or two.

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#305
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IfGodCouldDie
06/18/22 1:19:45 PM
#306:


UltimaterializerX posted...
Wait seriously? That is the actual best news.
I can't speak for outside Canada, but I turned on D+ last night to fall asleep to IASIP and they had all 5 of them listed. Unfortunately the Holland ones aren't there yet.

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#307
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IfGodCouldDie
06/18/22 1:26:17 PM
#308:


Nice.

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mnkboy907
06/18/22 4:01:11 PM
#309:


So in regards to MoM, my partner's co-worker told him it was important to watch What If first. I've seen it all, but he hasn't been too thrilled with the first 3-4 episodes. With as vague of spoilers as possible, is there just a specific episode(s) he should watch? My best guesses as to who might show up are Captain Carter, Super Strange, or Uatu himself, so he's aware of all them already (though Uatu hasn't been properly characterized yet). He hasn't liked how depressing they've been, so I was probably gonna have him skip the zombie and maybe Killmonger episodes and just go straight to Party Thor and the crossover eps. He might just not care to watch anymore at all.

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skullbone
06/18/22 4:06:52 PM
#310:


You really don't need to watch any episodes of What If. Watching Wandavision is a little more important.

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mnkboy907
06/18/22 4:07:56 PM
#311:


Yeah, he's seen everything else besides the one I spoilered.

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CassandraCain
06/18/22 4:26:18 PM
#312:


You definitely don't need to see any What If eps, I'm not sure why some people think it's necessary. The "evil" Strange isn't the same one as the movie version. There's no connection between them.

Even Wandavision isn't absolutely required to watch first.

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NewerShadow
06/18/22 4:42:23 PM
#313:


CassandraCain posted...
Even Wandavision isn't absolutely required to watch first.
Having sped through WandaVision the day before I saw MoM, I strongly disagree with this! I think you'd probably be confused if you went straight from Infinity War/Endgame to MoM.

I still haven't watched What If though, and I don't think I really missed out on anything there.
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GuessHerUsrName
06/18/22 4:43:16 PM
#314:


What If's definitely not mandatory viewing for MoM at all. WandaVision is definitely involved but not really What If which is a largely tangential.
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StealThisSheen
06/18/22 4:43:19 PM
#315:


Yeah, WandaVision seems pretty important. What If not at all.

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CassandraCain
06/18/22 4:51:40 PM
#316:


WandaVision leads into the movie, and it is recommended. But the only info you really need before watching the movie is "Wanda went through some shit, now she's a little unhinged." The movie would still make perfect sense, you'd just be missing some details.

And I would also say you don't even need to watch all the episodes to get those details, most of it's in the final episode.

Also please don't misinterpret this as me saying DON'T watch it, I still highly recommend WandaVision as it's still the best of the MCU shows. My only point is that it's not 100% required to understand MoM.

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StealThisSheen
06/18/22 5:26:56 PM
#317:


I think the thing with WandaVision is that it feels pretty important to know why she's so unhinged, what she's been doing, and why she's been doing it. The movie would "make sense" on the surface without it, but you're missing a lot of key details that will probably pop up later.

So I do agree it's not 100% required to understand MoM on a surface level, but you'd be missing a looot of context that will probably come up later.

It's like watching a sport with only the knowledge of "they're trying to score points." You can understand it and enjoy it as is, but you're not gonna know the rules, which may become super important at certain times.

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Grand Kirby
06/18/22 5:42:38 PM
#318:


Wandavision kind of makes MoM make LESS sense if you watch it. Wanda seems to have learned the value of acceptance and moving on at the end of her series. All of which goes out the window when she appears in Strange 2. You have to kind of jump through hoops to justify her character in MoM. But if you go into the movie and just hear about her backstory of what happened in Westview it would probably feel less jarring.

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FFDragon
06/18/22 5:45:09 PM
#319:


You mean all of that goes out the window in the post-credits scene of Wandavision. She was fine until she realized she could still get to her kids

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StealThisSheen
06/18/22 5:47:39 PM
#320:


FFDragon posted...
You mean all of that goes out the window in the post-credits scene of Wandavision. She was fine until she realized she could still get to her kids

Yeah, this. The post-credits scene makes it all make sense. And the post-credits scene needs the whole series to work. Hence why the series in general is important.

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mnkboy907
06/18/22 6:22:16 PM
#321:


I've hoodwinked myself, MoM is 4 days away. ;_;

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GuessMyUserName
06/18/22 7:46:40 PM
#322:


Wanda was never fine in WV, she only accepted she can't keep actively torturing an entire town of people, and that's with Vision there telling her to stop. She hardly feels bad about it, but rather leaves the town feeling like a victim now that she's a pariah for all the evil shit she did.

[MoM] She even reiterates this sentiment to Strange early in the movie about how he bends the rules and he's a hero, but she does it and she's a villain.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/18/22 7:48:38 PM
#323:


GuessMyUserName posted...
Wanda was never fine in WV, she only accepted she can't keep actively torturing an entire town of people, and that's with Vision there telling her to stop. She hardly feels bad about it, but rather leaves the town feeling like a victim now that she's a pariah for all the evil shit she did.

[MoM] She even reiterates this sentiment to Strange early in the movie about how he bends the rules and he's a hero, but she does it and she's a villain.
This is the whole thing, people were all like, how can they just let Wanda go, when in actuality what the fuck is anyone going to do to stop her?

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StealThisSheen
06/18/22 8:03:25 PM
#324:


Yeah, I always felt that even at the end of WandaVision, she's still a villain. She never actually appeared to show any remorse for what she did in the series.

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HanOfTheNekos
06/18/22 8:25:26 PM
#325:


WandaVision is important because without watching it, you have no idea of what her motives are, considering her kids are introduced in the show

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#326
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StealThisSheen
06/18/22 9:38:54 PM
#327:


UltimaterializerX posted...
For the 58th time, Wanda is not a villain until she starts reading the Darkhold, aka the actual villain.

I mean no shade here but you guys sound similar to the folks who dont understand that the ring of power is the actual villain in LOTR. Its practically a direct comparison/homage.

Wanda was knowingly holding people against their will, and she expelled anybody that tried to come in and help them. That is pretty villainous, dude. The director even acknowledges she's pretty much a villain. There's not really any debate about this, that was their intention.

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scarletspeed7
06/18/22 9:39:39 PM
#328:


Hal Jordan was still a villain regardless if Parallax was controlling him.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/18/22 9:41:39 PM
#329:


StealThisSheen posted...
Wanda was knowingly holding people against their will, and she expelled anybody that tried to come in and help them. That is pretty villainous, dude.
I'll have to rewatch the last episode but I am pretty confident I remember her not realizing she was doing that and then struggled with deciding to let them go or not because it was basically a choice between her family and strangers

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StealThisSheen
06/18/22 9:43:52 PM
#330:


IfGodCouldDie posted...
I'll have to rewatch the last episode but I am pretty confident I remember her not realizing she was doing that and then struggled with deciding to let them go or not because it was basically a choice between her family and strangers

The last episode is less about her not realizing she's doing it, and more with facing the reality of just how bad what she's doing actually is, and yet she's still struggling with whether or not she should stop doing it because she's attached to her family. At the least, they intended to imply she knew she was doing it, since there was a big debate after the finale about whether she got let off easy over it or not, which the director weighed in on.

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StealThisSheen
06/18/22 9:51:34 PM
#331:


Like, basically, there is no implication that Wanda doesn't know she's enslaving people. It's moreso basically... She has convinced herself that, since she has created this fantasy world that SHE is happy in, they are also happy in it, even if against their will. And then when it is made clear "No, you are literally enslaving these people and ignoring their feelings for your own," she starts to come to terms with it... Until she sees her family, and literally starts to put the hex back up because, again, she's thinking about herself over them. She's incredibly selfish throughout almost the entire series.

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Murphiroth
06/18/22 10:13:09 PM
#332:


Wanda totally realizes what she's doing, she's just convinced herself otherwise, at least early on before she admits it. I will say though that I don't think her initial creation of the hex was deliberate, that was an uncontrolled explosion of emotion and power, but she kept it going even when she realized what was going on.
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Bane_Of_Despair
06/18/22 10:21:20 PM
#333:


It's true, watching WandaVision helps in seeing that her journey through that is just totally reduced to a fairly one dimensional villain arc in MoM (to be fair I get what they were going for with it in MoM but man did it still feel fairly generic)

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redrocket
06/18/22 10:24:17 PM
#334:


Bane_Of_Despair posted...
It's true, watching WandaVision helps in seeing that her journey through that is just totally reduced to a fairly one dimensional villain arc in MoM (to be fair I get what they were going for with it in MoM but man did it still feel fairly generic)

I mean, I feel like thats a realistic direction for her arc to go in considering her rapidly deteriorating mental health.

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Bane_Of_Despair
06/18/22 10:25:13 PM
#335:


Like I said I get what they were going for I just don't think it was done particularly well until the reckoning at the end which was alright

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Bane_Of_Despair
06/18/22 10:25:47 PM
#336:


MoM was not a good movie for many reasons other than Wanda for me though

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NewerShadow
06/19/22 12:15:01 AM
#337:


Now that MoM is getting closer to home release, I want to do a brain dump of my thoughts on phase 4 as a whole. I don't really follow a whole lot of the Discourse on marvel stuff (outside this topic, on and off) so these might be mildly hot takes but they've been smoldering inside me for a while and I'd like to get them out of my head.

Non-specific spoilers for all of phase 4, including Multiverse of Madness, ahead.

Movies: So so far in phase 4 we've had 5 movies (Black Widow, Shang-Chi, Eternals, Spider Man 3, and Dr Strange 2). Of those, I kind of think that there has been about 4 halves of a good movie, with Spider Man being the closest to complete and Eternals missing the mark. I don't know if the movies are just Not For Me, or if the Covid wait messed with the edits, or if the schedule changes just messed everything up, but I don't think any of the phase 4 movies have fully landed for me the way the infinity saga movies did. I'm not saying they're Fantastic Four (2015) bad but just average, which is a cut below my expectations. I think part of this is that the (cinematic) component parts of phase 4 have been mostly unconnected from one another - there have been rumblings of things for the future but you don't have anything like the stones as obvious plot devices. The Multiverse also doesn't really do much for me from what I've seen of it. There also is no big team-up coming, which I kind of think is the whole *point* of having everything connected.

Disney+: Phase 4 has had 6 TV shows, plus one airing (WandaVision, Falcon/Winter Soldier, Loki, What If?, Hawkeye and Moon Knight, plus Ms. Marvel). IMO there are about 3.5 good shows, with Loki and Hawkeye clicking with me, and WandaVision and Moon Knight almost clicking (WV I'm just not at all interested in the TV show part, MK just has bad vibes by design). I think the miniseries format just doesn't do them any favors since you need to make a good impression fast and maintain it, and I don't think the showrunners are consistently good at that. I don't think this is necessarily a trait of marvel TV stuff since I liked Agents of SHIELD and the Netflix series (even Iron Fist was fine!) but I guess it might be a format that's Not For Me?

Commonalities: This might just be an issue of contracts expiring but the other thing that bugs me is that we've basically gone back to origin stories again, except instead of for the title characters, they are for future content - all of the Disney+ stuff has introduced people that are going to Show Up in the future, but aside from WandaVision, they haven't really changed the status quo much. I do wonder if the changes in release dates have messed with plots and screwed things up, but if that's the case maybe Disney just needs to change strategies if they're being too ambitious with schedules.

Caveats: Between the Delta and Omicron (and whatever we're on now) waves of Covid, and overall dissatisfaction with my job, my opinions might be biased by being on edge and just not in a great mood, both being in a public theater, and in general. That's kind of why I want to post this just as a (partly literal) sanity check - if other people have similar opinions, or if I just need to take a break from watching Marvel shows/movies if they just aren't going to land for me any more.
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TheRock1525
06/19/22 1:12:23 AM
#338:


I watched MoM without Wandavision and still loved MoM.

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Mr Lasastryke
06/19/22 5:56:34 AM
#339:


NewerShadow posted...
Caveats: Between the Delta and Omicron (and whatever we're on now) waves of Covid, and overall dissatisfaction with my job, my opinions might be biased by being on edge and just not in a great mood, both being in a public theater, and in general. That's kind of why I want to post this just as a (partly literal) sanity check - if other people have similar opinions, or if I just need to take a break from watching Marvel shows/movies if they just aren't going to land for me any more.

in response to your comments on the TV shows (haven't seen MoM yet and i'm avoiding spoilers for it): aside from your view on wandavision (which i really liked), i pretty much agree with your non-positive opinions. falcon & winter soldier was meh and what if was so uneven that i'm still not sure if it was a good show overall (it probably wasn't, really).

haven't seen ms. marvel yet but the positive reception seems to just be a board 8 thing; it has a 6.2 on IMDb right now. that's... actually pretty terrible, considering how generous IMDb scores are. for comparison's sake, the phantom menace has a 6.5.

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StealThisSheen
06/19/22 5:59:51 AM
#340:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
in response to your comments on the TV shows (haven't seen MoM yet and i'm avoiding spoilers for it): aside from your view on wandavision (which i really liked), i pretty much agree with your non-positive opinions. falcon & winter soldier was meh and what if was so uneven that i'm still not sure if it was a good show overall (it probably wasn't, really).

haven't seen ms. marvel yet but the positive reception seems to just be a board 8 thing; it has a 6.2 on IMDb right now. that's... actually pretty terrible, considering how generous IMDb scores are. for comparison's sake, the phantom menace has a 6.5.

Aren't IMDb scores just user scores, susceptible to being review bombed like anything else? Which, given that 28.5% of the scores are 1s, is probably happening here.

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Mr Lasastryke
06/19/22 6:04:50 AM
#341:


it's possible, though i don't think IMDb has ever fully explained how the scores are generated.

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StealThisSheen
06/19/22 6:06:30 AM
#342:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
it's possible, though i don't think IMDb has ever fully explained how the scores are generated.

Yes it does, unless I'm looking somewhere else? It's user ratings.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120915/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10857164/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt

Lightyear was also review bombed.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10298810/ratings/

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StealThisSheen
06/19/22 6:11:01 AM
#343:


Oh, you mean they don't disclose how their weighted system works. While that's true, it still all comes from user scores, and the charts show when obvious review bombing occurs. They don't seem to try to stop it, as it was happening to Lightyear before it was even released.

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Mr Lasastryke
06/19/22 6:12:17 AM
#344:


i know it's user ratings but it's not entirely clear how those ratings are converted into scores, according to wikipedia:

IMDb indicates that submitted ratings are filtered and weighted in various ways to produce a weighted mean that is displayed for each film, series, and so on. It states that filters are used to avoid ballot stuffing; the method is not described in detail to avoid attempts to circumvent it.

...anyway, yeah, wikipedia also states ms. marvel was indeed review bombed, so disregard my comments on that. you'd think a site as huge as IMDb would have more trustworthy scores!

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Mr Lasastryke
06/19/22 6:13:25 AM
#345:


StealThisSheen posted...
Oh, you mean they don't disclose how their weighted system works.

yeah, that's what i meant.


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StealThisSheen
06/19/22 6:13:50 AM
#346:


Yeah, while we don't know how they weigh them for the actual average score, they do show the raw numbers of scores, which is where you can tell when bombing is occurring. And whenever you see blatant bombing (thousands of 1s), you can also likely bet there are people purposely giving other low scores to try to circumvent the system, thus it's just not reliable.

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FFDragon
06/19/22 11:44:19 AM
#347:


https://comicbookmovie.com/tv/marvel/ms_marvel/ms-marvel-scores-lowest-5-day-viewership-of-any-mcu-disney-series-so-far-a194368

Oof

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scarletspeed7
06/19/22 11:55:01 AM
#348:


So I've seen a lot of information about review bombing or intentional upvoting - IMDb has had a lot of experience with this, which started back in 2008 when The Dark Knight was actually dealing with a flood-in of scoring after it overtook Shawshank in the #1 position briefly. Since then, there has been a system put in place that takes into account the number of reviews, the amount of activity, and the spread of activity over time to weight scores, supposedly. So when a movie like Lightyear gets review-bombed for... I have no idea what, honestly, the heavy low 1-ratings are usually removed because they come from accounts that were filled with few reviews in the first place.

The written reviews I see of Ms. Marvel on IMDb are mostly in the 6-8 range, so I have to assume the one-stars are generally racist in nature?

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HashtagSEP
06/19/22 12:06:13 PM
#349:


Lightyear has two gay characters kiss.

Ms. Marvels appears to be racial in nature, yes.

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scarletspeed7
06/19/22 12:09:46 PM
#350:


I'll admit, I don't say on top of whatever the dialogue is surrounding these things, but I have been trending a little negatively on D+ Marvel shows as of late, so I could see myself potentially scoring Ms. Marvel in that range - but I also score an average film at a 5 or 6 on IMDb when I rate something.

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#351
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swordz9
06/19/22 12:25:01 PM
#352:


A lot of Disney Pixar stuff lately seems to be getting reviewed bombed because people are pathetic and the internet gives them easy access to voice stuff. Oh no same sex kisses, couples or non-white women in a show hang on my fragile existence cant handle this I gotta go write a 1 star review somewhere
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