Board 8 > MCU General 8 - Ms. Marvel bringing the Love, She-Hulk bringing the Thunder

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LinkMarioSamus
06/02/22 4:41:17 AM
#152:


Waluigi1 posted...
Didn't you like, just start watching the movies kinda recently?

I guess I only really got into watching them in 2018, yeah.

And as for that one thread I made a while back, I did not mean to suggest I was equating Black Panther to TLJ based on fan reception. At the same time BP's IMDB score is barely any higher though, and yet it feels like that movie more than any other individual MCU flick cemented the franchise as the big man at the box office while TLJ exposed the problems with Disney's Star Wars enterprises.

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Leonhart4
06/02/22 4:48:52 AM
#153:


Yet another day in which my hopes have been dashed

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LinkMarioSamus
06/04/22 9:24:35 AM
#154:


Want to address two frequent criticisms of Phase 4 (not just from anti-progressives):

-I understand people taking issue with there seemingly being "no plan" for Phase 4, but there was a clear running theme in the first few installments of the aftermath of Endgame, and now that's giving way to the multiverse. So talked a bit much.

-As someone who didn't like Loki at all, from a narrative standpoint I don't understand the criticism of Loki being less competent in the series than he's usually portrayed. This isn't the main Loki, this is one who just got slammed by the Hulk and is in a situation far beyond his comprehension. I think I can forgive him for having no idea what he has gotten into.

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scarletspeed7
06/04/22 10:23:57 AM
#155:


Loki is a god. That is, a divine being of immeasurably lifespan. Surely, an immortal, long-lived individual who has spent his life among beings such as Odin, who possessed the wisdom of Yggdrasil, can fathom something us mere mortals watching a television show can. It's not that difficult. My biggest problem with the MCU is how small everything is made to feel. This is the same problem with the Egyptian gods in Moon Knight. You can't write these omnipotent beings dumber than Hawkeye. That's where I draw the line. It just doesn't make sense.

Competency matters.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 11:03:49 AM
#156:


scarletspeed7 posted...
Loki is a god. That is, a divine being of immeasurably lifespan. Surely, an immortal, long-lived individual who has spent his life among beings such as Odin, who possessed the wisdom of Yggdrasil, can fathom something us mere mortals watching a television show can. It's not that difficult. My biggest problem with the MCU is how small everything is made to feel. This is the same problem with the Egyptian gods in Moon Knight. You can't write these omnipotent beings dumber than Hawkeye. That's where I draw the line. It just doesn't make sense.

Competency matters.
Loki isn't actually a god though. Neither is Khonshu. They especially are not omnipotent. If you want Gods or omnipotence you have to look at the beings like The Watcher or The Living Tribunal or The One Above All or any of the other abstract deities.

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LinkMarioSamus
06/04/22 11:47:32 AM
#157:


scarletspeed7 posted...
Loki is a god. That is, a divine being of immeasurably lifespan. Surely, an immortal, long-lived individual who has spent his life among beings such as Odin, who possessed the wisdom of Yggdrasil, can fathom something us mere mortals watching a television show can. It's not that difficult. My biggest problem with the MCU is how small everything is made to feel. This is the same problem with the Egyptian gods in Moon Knight. You can't write these omnipotent beings dumber than Hawkeye. That's where I draw the line. It just doesn't make sense.

Competency matters.

Not saying you don't raise a valid point, but there's a world of difference between consuming a work of fiction and actually being in the situation in question. I'm absolutely sick of criticisms implying the characters should have had the same foresight as the audience. Again, point taken though.

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Leonhart4
06/04/22 12:05:20 PM
#158:


Today my hopes have been fulfilled

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 12:35:42 PM
#159:


Leonhart4 posted...
Today my hopes have been fulfilled
Why?

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redrocket
06/04/22 12:36:19 PM
#160:


LinkMarioSamus posted...
Not saying you don't raise a valid point, but there's a world of difference between consuming a work of fiction and actually being in the situation in question. I'm absolutely sick of criticisms implying the characters should have had the same foresight as the audience. Again, point taken though.


For a more thorough explanation:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourthWallMyopia

Now I cant say in this case it excuses everything (especially for the Egyptian Gods) but its something important to always try to check yourself on.

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HanOfTheNekos
06/04/22 12:39:57 PM
#161:


This is why Loki was best in Thor 2. He was still the Trickster god. Guy schemed and played his way to the throne. So good.

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LinkMarioSamus
06/04/22 1:57:55 PM
#162:


Never seen Thor 2. Most of my MCU knowledge is based on Phases 1 and 3. I want to give some of the harshest criticisms the benefit of the doubt that maybe they really stuck through Phase 2 and were disgruntled by Phase 3 and onwards but at this point it's getting hard to parse out which criticisms are in bad faith and which aren't. The two I brought up today were criticisms that seem to be frequent beyond just anti-progressive circles so I can at least reasonably tell.

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scarletspeed7
06/04/22 2:48:28 PM
#163:


LinkMarioSamus posted...
Not saying you don't raise a valid point, but there's a world of difference between consuming a work of fiction and actually being in the situation in question. I'm absolutely sick of criticisms implying the characters should have had the same foresight as the audience. Again, point taken though.

This is a case where the character should absolutely be smarter than me. He has millennia of experience outwitting and playing powerful races from alternate dimensions. The fact that your statement says something is "far beyond his comprehension" just shows how nerfed Loki is intellectually in the show. I don't mind him getting played by Mobius - far from it. What I mind is the sheer slack-jawed... mortality of the character. Loki has been on a downward trajectory as a character for some time. It's similar to killing off Thanos a hundred times in the aftermath of Endgame. I get it - the desire to build greater threats. But don't diminish things that should remain foundational to the MCU in the effort to do so. One of the reasons the comics works well is that, in booking a new threat, great writers like Starlin knew how to maintain the credibility of characters in defeat. But there's a different style of writing on some of these shows that can't manage to let the losers still maintain dignity. It's my same argument with the Egyptian gods just absolutely being the most useless depictions of supposed omnipotence to ever exist on screen.

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Johnbobb
06/04/22 2:59:59 PM
#164:


scarletspeed7 posted...
It's my same argument with the Egyptian gods just absolutely being the most useless depictions of supposed omnipotence to ever exist on screen.
Yeah that I'll definitely agree with, having them being directly warned to their faces about the reemergence of the supposed greatest threat in the world and being like "nah that's unlikely" and then all dying offscreen to it without even putting up a fight was unbelievable to the point of it significantly hurting the show for me overall

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PrivateBiscuit1
06/04/22 3:37:04 PM
#165:


Sony what are you even doing

https://twitter.com/SuperFoxcade/status/1533144010759364608?t=F34a3J_--rqY0G8sQ6Ga6w&s=19

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 3:40:01 PM
#166:


scarletspeed7 posted...
He has millennia of experience outwitting and playing powerful races from alternate dimensions.
Where in the MCU is this established?

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scarletspeed7
06/04/22 3:41:25 PM
#167:


IfGodCouldDie posted...
Where in the MCU is this established?
Oh, I'm sorry you're right, he isn't operating in the nine Norse dimensions which each are comprised of various races explicitly shown in different movies, as well as trying to play ball with the Chitauri and the Grandmaster. "Where in the MCU is this established?" Try every movie.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 3:42:27 PM
#168:


scarletspeed7 posted...
Oh, I'm sorry you're right, he isn't operating in the nine Norse dimensions which each are comprised of various races explicitly shown in different movies, as well as trying to play ball with the Chitauri and the Grandmaster. "Where in the MCU is this established?" Try every movie.
Those aren't different dimensions though. They all exist on the same plane within the same universe. The only other dimension Loki has experienced thus far would be whatever plane of existence the TVA exist on, you might be able to argue that Dr. Strange portaled him to another dimension at the start of Ragnorok. Dr. Strange with multiple dimensions and Ant-Man the quantum realm are the only other characters with out of dimension experience.

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scarletspeed7
06/04/22 3:45:54 PM
#169:


I'll concede that, except Hel clearly isn't, but even so, that is nitpicking a small detail that really doesn't matter. Especially in the first film, they are intended in presentation to be different "realms". Dimensions, planets, who cares? It's not germane to my point.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 3:49:20 PM
#170:


scarletspeed7 posted...
I'll concede that, except Hel clearly isn't, but even so, that is nitpicking a small detail that really doesn't matter. Especially in the first film, they are intended in presentation to be different "realms". Dimensions, planets, who cares? It's not germane to my point.
I mean it kind of is because him traveling to different planets or "realms" as the asgardians call them would be akin to us traveling to different countries. So when he is actually thrown into another plane of existence he is not as prepared as he might expect. Like if you took the smartest person on Earth and threw them on another planet with a class 3 or 4 civilization do you really think they will be the smartest being there?

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scarletspeed7
06/04/22 3:54:27 PM
#171:


No, IfGod. It is not apples to apples. They have the Rainbow Bridge, they use the tesseract, they're covering infinite distances across creation. Again, Hel, too, is not a planet, but a dimension at the very least. If I threw a human on another planet, yes, they wouldn't be the smartest being there, most likely. But if I throw a being that can traverse across the universe with powerful weapons that can unmake reality, blah blah blah, yes. l DO expect them to not suddenly be the most idiotic slack-jawed moron in the universe. There is a level of competency you still expect in execution that Loki suddenly lacked.

And traveling to a different country? If I travel to ANY country on Earth, I still know physics, I still know math. I have a phone I can use to navigate and translate. And if I didn't, I know to get something to fulfill that role. Now, imagine if I'm thousands of years old and travel to countries as a career choice. Suddenly, I'm dropped in a country I haven't visited before and I'm helpless? No. This was a narrative choice to make Loki more relatable, but it diminished Loki as a god into Loki as sort of just some guy. Your metaphor falls apart as soon as you translate it to the reality of the character. Context matters, whether it's worlds or dimensions or tufts of floating cotton candy that hang outside of the space-time continuum.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 3:59:29 PM
#172:


You're also forgetting that Loki is not a God. He is mortal, and has been tricked quite easily by humans. Loki has shown prior to his series that he is not as smart as he wants everyone to believe and you are giving him way too much credit.

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scarletspeed7
06/04/22 4:13:52 PM
#174:


I was going to do a detailed nitpick on how the movies' presentations are markedly different from film to film, but I think there's bo real reason to. I don't want to clog the topic with arguing anyways. But if you equate all mortals as the same, then the show is for you. It's not for me. There is gross mischaracterization that I just don't believe should be handwoven so easily. There is always context to Loki's failures. He earned his arrogance from somewhere. It would be like thinking you can chastise Jim Gordon in No Man's Land for doing a bad job, after showing up three months in. Sure, you can point out the weaknesses, but he earned his position somehow. If you can't recognize context, you're doomed to live in exile from those who do.

Probably a lot of typos but I'm on my phone. Sorry.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 4:23:57 PM
#175:


It all good. I think we just have different views on the subject. And I'm not trying to argue over it either. I think it's just a case of agree to disagree really.

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HanOfTheNekos
06/04/22 4:32:00 PM
#176:


IfGodCouldDie posted...
Loki has shown prior to his series that he is not as smart as he wants everyone to believe

But he also has shown that.

That's the point.

Loki was the villain in 3 Marvel movies. He's the only villain, aside from Thanos, that has been given a fair extended shake by the MCU. It's lame for them to treat him as a schmuck after that.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 5:45:52 PM
#177:


I look at it like this. I don't want to see flawless characters, I don't mind seeing characters fall backwards because that is a very human trait. People can make all the changes in the world to better themselves and still have triggers that make them fall back into bad habits. As we see the MCU expand, I am totally OK with any being introduced in the MCU to have humanish faults because I like the idea that regardless of species or technological advancements that personal faults can be a universal constant. So when people complain about a character having progress erased or them not being perfect or them having faults it isn't something that really consider to be as bad they do.

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LeonhartFour
06/04/22 5:48:32 PM
#178:


villains always get dumber once they become heroes

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IfGodCouldDie
06/04/22 5:50:27 PM
#179:


LeonhartFour posted...
villains always get dumber once they become heroes
That is also a very unfortunate trope.

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scarletspeed7
06/04/22 6:25:25 PM
#180:


It's the main reason I dislike Loki's character evolution. It's a terrible crutch for writers.

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Johnbobb
06/05/22 12:41:22 AM
#181:


Loki being made a protagonist is ultimately the worst thing that could've happened to his character. He works as a villain, he works as an anti-hero, or as a reluctant "villain siding with the hero to fight a bigger villain." He 100% does not work as a lovestruck hero driven by a sudden arbitrary moral fortitude

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colliding
06/05/22 8:37:25 AM
#182:


I think Loki (the show itself) is really good but I have to agree that it shouldn't actually be "Loki" in there

as a comics fan it actually bums me out because I think "this could've actually been a successful new IP" which is extremely rare for Marvel.

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CassandraCain
06/05/22 11:32:22 AM
#183:


I wasn't able to enjoy the show that much, and now I'm thinking it's because I couldn't get over how they used Loki. Originally when he was plucked from the Avengers timeline it seemed like they were setting up to bring mischievous Loki back after killing off the redeemed one. Solid idea right there.

Then the show starts and he watches a video that catches him up on all the character growth he was missing out on... and that's enough to completely change his personality immediately. So he's right back to the Loki who died in Infinity War, which is just cheap.

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Johnbobb
06/05/22 11:42:59 AM
#184:


I enjoyed it at the beginning and enjoyed it progressively less as it went on

the literal god of deception and scheming getting outplayed by interdimensional time manipulators? That's cool!

the literal god of deception and scheming falling in love with a cute blonde who's really "loki" in name only (and not even that) and losing his ability to scheme and any survival instinct along the way? not so cool

good effects budget though

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PrivateBiscuit1
06/05/22 11:57:52 AM
#185:


I'm glad people seem to be turning the corner on Loki now.

I thought the series was just awful until the last few episodes, and I just don't understand this direction or why anyone would like or care about this version of Loki who is just a shoehorned version of the other one without any of the plot development (but he just changed because he saw some clips of another Loki with that plot development). Like they took Loki, the cool mischievous God and made him the white collar worker version of a hero. What are we even doing with this character now? Who asked for this? This is so much less interesting than any direction they could have gone with that character.

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colliding
06/05/22 11:58:39 AM
#186:


again all of these problems are solved if you just pretend it's not loki and just new character played by tom hiddleston

which doesn't excuse anything, but I think a lot of good stuff gets thrown out if a person is too hung up on loki himself

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HanOfTheNekos
06/05/22 12:08:35 PM
#187:


Prime Loki at least earned his character development.

It's why I say Loki needed a season 1 - give us 6 episodes of him evading the TVA and Mobius - make Mobius the bad guy, and only in the season finale, have him be like "wait, we need your help. You've just been running circles around us... some OTHER variant has been killing us"

And then season 2 can be what we got, which puts Loki in a much better place to flip sides, and we could have a much more organic development of villain Loki into something in-between that and nice brother Loki.

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TheRock1525
06/05/22 12:50:48 PM
#188:


I remember saying in these topics that Loki's character change felt unearned due to how they handled it (i.e. a video package) and people said that it was perfectly fine.

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JonThePenguin
06/05/22 1:30:39 PM
#189:


August 10 for I Am Groot.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/3/7/AADcu0AADTlN.jpg

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Leonhart4
06/05/22 1:31:39 PM
#190:


TheRock1525 posted...
I remember saying in these topics that Loki's character change felt unearned due to how they handled it (i.e. a video package) and people said that it was perfectly fine.

I wouldn't say "perfectly" fine, but it's still my favorite Disney Plus Marvel show and I wasn't super bothered by it.

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Murphiroth
06/05/22 2:49:36 PM
#191:


Leonhart4 posted...
I wouldn't say "perfectly" fine, but it's still my favorite Disney Plus Marvel show and I wasn't super bothered by it.

Same.
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colliding
06/05/22 3:18:50 PM
#192:


anyway, looks like we actually are having a productive discussion based off an LMS post

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IfGodCouldDie
06/05/22 3:21:56 PM
#193:


For me, I just don't believe that Loki was ever evil. Sure he was an antagonist but the character growth we saw from him in the MCU is that of someone that felt they didn't belong and was someone that was damaged and just wanted the love of their family. He was a child acting out. In Loki, when he saw that he would obtain that love and acceptance he was much more willing to forego being a piece of shit.

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Leonhart4
06/05/22 3:22:40 PM
#194:


colliding posted...
anyway, looks like we actually are having a productive discussion based off an LMS post

Hence why I said my hopes have finally been fulfilled

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PrivateBiscuit1
06/05/22 3:22:44 PM
#195:


colliding posted...
anyway, looks like we actually are having a productive discussion based off an LMS post
we're in a real bad multiverse now

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Corrik7
06/05/22 3:40:54 PM
#196:


IfGodCouldDie posted...
For me, I just don't believe that Loki was ever evil. Sure he was an antagonist but the character growth we saw from him in the MCU is that of someone that felt they didn't belong and was someone that was damaged and just wanted the love of their family. He was a child acting out. In Loki, when he saw that he would obtain that love and acceptance he was much more willing to forego being a piece of shit.
Child acting out via mass murder.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/05/22 3:55:56 PM
#197:


Corrik7 posted...
Child acting out via mass murder.
Considering what we learn about Odin in Ragnorok he still isn't as bad as his dad.

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PrivateBiscuit1
06/05/22 3:57:30 PM
#198:


Corrik7 posted...
Child acting out via mass murder.
They bullshit it by saying that the scepter/whatever gem was manipulating him and his negative feelings and making him more evil.

I mean I don't love it, but that's what they said.

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IfGodCouldDie
06/05/22 3:59:06 PM
#199:


PrivateBiscuit1 posted...
They bullshit it by saying that the scepter/whatever gem was manipulating him and his negative feelings and making him more evil.

I mean I don't love it, but that's what they said.
Originally when I heard that I was ok with it, but after Vision was created with the mind stone it doesn't make sense why Vision would be good and Loki be more evil.

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scarletspeed7
06/05/22 3:59:09 PM
#200:


IfGodCouldDie posted...
Considering what we learn about Odin in Ragnorok he still isn't as bad as his dad.
Not his dad

I mean, if you're going to correct me on planets, get that shit right

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IfGodCouldDie
06/05/22 4:03:24 PM
#201:


scarletspeed7 posted...
Not his dad

I mean, if you're going to correct me on planets, get that shit right
Oh I'm sorry. I forgot that an adoptive father that raises and loves you can't be your dad.

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scarletspeed7
06/05/22 4:09:13 PM
#202:


Well I figured if you wanted to be extremely nitpicky about pointless things, I should hold to your own standard.

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