Poll of the Day > What is Critical Race Theory?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I guess I just don't understand what exactly it is. Why does it "have white guilt" baked into it?

cathode ray tube

Something that you're better off not knowing about.

THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

Why does it "have white guilt" baked into it?

It doesn't, that's just the right-wing slant.

CRT is the study that defunct racist policies and behaviors still have long-reaching consequences despite being defunct; The top points of contention are generational wealth+inheritance, housing+business zoning districts (a simple redline separating your property from your neighbours could mean the difference between getting a loan or not... independent of your income), and Intersectionality (a black man might get a job cuz not racist, a white woman might get a job cuz not sexist, but a black woman might be denied a job because a combined mini-racism+mini-sexism crossed a total bigotry threshold)

8 years of being taught it in school wasn't enough

aiyobro posted...

8 years of being taught it in school wasn't enough

to be fair, if you are taught something for 8 years and still get it wrong you really should blame the teachers at that point

that if cars are all the exact same, the racer with the best skills will win

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/1/1/0/AAFUswAADLJu.jpg

its a graduate school-level field of study but republicans have taken it to mean anything that suggests racism exists and white people benefit from it

Simply put, at least with the 'modern' use, CRT is the theory that basically everything in western culture exists to oppress PoC's and Women. White people, especially white men, have benefited immensely from this and have massive amounts of inherent privileged as a result. So basically everything is inherently racist to some degree unless it was made by PoC's and the only 'solution' is to expose this racism and tear down the system and replace it with a more 'equitable' system.

Lokarin posted...

CRT is the study that defunct racist policies and behaviors still have long-reaching consequences despite being defunct

In other words:

"Even when problems are addressed, we still think it's a problem, and since it's already defunct, there's nothing you can do to rectify it. Please submit to X group, you are irredeemably a villain for your race."

Kyuubi4269 posted...

In other words:

"Even when problems are addressed, we still think it's a problem, and since it's already defunct, there's nothing you can do to rectify it. Please submit to X group, you are irredeemably a villain for your race."

Preeeetty much this.

Oh hey Tucker Carlson posts here

Kyuubi4269 posted...

In other words:

"Even when problems are addressed, we still think it's a problem, and since it's already defunct, there's nothing you can do to rectify it. Please submit to X group, you are irredeemably a villain for your race."

Ok, lets put it another way

Lets say a nuclear power plant melts down and there's a big todo and they clean it up and new legislation gets put into place, yay!

That must means that mutated cancer babies don't exist anymore, right?

Lokarin posted...

Ok, lets put it another way

Lets say a nuclear power plant melts down and there's a big todo and they clean it up and new legislation gets put into place, yay!

That must means that mutated cancer babies don't exist anymore, right?

Sure... but would you blame the janitor at the power plant for said mutated cancer babies? (Assuming they weren't at fault at least. I dunno. Maybe they left a squeegee in the reactor?)

Lokarin posted...

Ok, lets put it another way

Lets say a nuclear power plant melts down and there's a big todo and they clean it up and new legislation gets put into place, yay!

That must means that mutated cancer babies don't exist anymore, right?

Mutated cancer babies aren't the rest of the people's problem. The situation is resolved, future people do not have problems going forward, that's all you can ask for.

By your logic I should get paid by the wealthy because if you track far enough back my family isn't as wealthy as laws didn't exist then to stop whatever exploitation. As far as I'm concerned, that's not relevant to me, that's the past, it's done and I hold no ill-will to anybody because of what the situation was for my ancestors. That's unreasonable, bitter, petty behaviour of a child, we all move on when the problem is resolved.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

future people do not have problems going forward

lol

https://youtu.be/EICp1vGlh_U

It's always the ex-slavers trying to make everyone else feel guilty
the jews, blacks, spanish, french and english all practiced slavery but white boi gotta pay now

I've gone this long without knowing. It sounds stupid as fuck. Much like gamergate.

I'm sure in your average Florida head they think it's something hammered into the brains of young children an hour a day.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

that's the past

There are people still alive today who had to drink from segregated water fountains...

Critical race theory is an academic concept that is more than 40 years old. The core idea is that race is a social construct, and that racism is not merely the product of individual bias or prejudice, but also something embedded in legal systems and policies.
The basic tenets of critical race theory, or CRT, emerged out of a framework for legal analysis in the late 1970s and early 1980s created by legal scholars Derrick Bell, Kimberl Crenshaw, and Richard Delgado, among others.
A good example is when, in the 1930s, government officials literally drew lines around areas deemed poor financial risks, often explicitly due to the racial composition of inhabitants. Banks subsequently refused to offer mortgages to Black people in those areas.

It's not as goofy as it sounds.

It actually sounds like a core belief of modern society.

Yellow posted...

It's not as goofy as it sounds.

It actually sounds like a core belief of modern society.

ya, that's why I think it's weird when people try to reject it outright. I mean, I can understand not wanting to feel "white guilt" for actions you didn't perform... but that doesn't mean denying reality.

Lokarin posted...

There are people still alive today who had to drink from segregated water fountains...

To put it in terms they'd understand - they've probably jerked off to porn with actors who went to segregated schools

race isn't a social construct, their are biological differences (and I'm not talking about skin color).

admitting there are differences doesn't mean they are bad.

Krazy_Kirby posted...

their are biological differences

Can you expand on that?

DrunkCaveman posted...

Can you expand on that?

hair has microscopic differences, front teeth have different shape on the inner side, etc.

@Krazy_Kirby if you want a real answer about what it is you're probably best off reading the Wikipedia article, it dates back to being in opposition to segregation, so these days we do consider it to be more of a social construct in a way. Maybe not literally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

^Some people don't want or have an answer. Good on you for actually looking into it yourself instead of relying on fear mongering points like "durr white people bad, we want money."

The nuclear spill analogy is flawed, because the point of this is that it hasn't been entirely cleaned up yet. There is residual contamination in places where it happened and constructs made with contaminated materials.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

In other words:
"Even when problems are addressed, we still think it's a problem, and since it's already defunct, there's nothing you can do to rectify it. Please submit to X group, you are irredeemably a villain for your race."

Yeah, it turns out that if some creep stabs a person a bunch of times, and you confiscate the knife, you still have someone bleeding out on the ground and telling them to walk off the stabbing is not really useful.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

The situation is resolved, future people do not have problems going forward, that's all you can ask for.

Even on a very simple, easily understood level, this is so obviously not how reality works. :-/

I dunno, I have trouble engaging with someone who not only is grossly ignorant about these subjects but constantly signals that he's completely disinterested in actually learning anything and bettering himself. *shrug* I should not have to explain to an adult human being how reality works.

Barring forced labor for criminals, the final legal loopholes that let people continue chattel slavery in the USA ended in the 1940s. The US government repeatedly either directly seized the assets of (see Andrew Johnson taking the land that was granted to freed slaves away) or allowed for the seizure and destruction of the property of marginalized people (this happened in my town to Chinese American people, for example), which crippled them economically.

"BUT THAT'S THE PAST SO IT HAS NO IMPACT. WHAT EVEN IS CAUSE AND EFFECT? WHAT IS TIME ANYWAY? I DON'T KNOW."

I refuse to believe that you are so stupid that you can't understand how it might be that a kid whose parents inherited property from their grandparents has an edge over a kid whose parents had no inheritance because their grandparents' property either never existed owing to them being slaves or was destroyed or seized during a race riot thanks to the actions of the US government. That can be the difference between you being housed or homeless, or being able to go to a decent school, or being able to get a higher education, or being able to go to a fucking doctor if you need to, which means it can be the difference between whether or not you get to live long enough to find some bootstraps to attempt to pull yourself up by.

There are people, to this very day, that get shitty medical care because outdated medical textbooks have racist misinformation in them that was designed to post-hoc justify the abuse and neglect of people of color. I hate to break the news to you, Kyuubi, but it turns out that things that happened earlier have an impact on what happens now and what happens now has an impact on what happens in the future, and if there are bad things happening now, you have to actually work to fix them.
https://examples.yourdictionary.com/cause-and-effect-examples.html

Krazy_Kirby posted...

race isn't a social construct, their are biological differences (and I'm not talking about skin color).
admitting there are differences doesn't mean they are bad.

That does not make it not a social construct... do you not know what a social construct is? Like... you think all these scientists telling you that race is a social construct don't know that ancestral phenotype traits exist?
Money is a social construct, that doesn't mean money isn't real. :-/

Hmm, how do I explain this? Social constructions around phenotype traits have varied wildly across times and places.... eh, I'm too tired for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyvcs2S4mI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVmj8dDx9yY

Whatever you want so you can ban and control whatever you want

Lokarin posted...

There are people still alive today who had to drink from segregated water fountains...

And? I've had payment at a job withheld before, should I be going to their corporate office everyday to harass them now it's been resolved? Be a big boy and move on, it's not a concern now.

Gaawa_chan posted...

Yeah, it turns out that if some creep stabs a person a bunch of times, and you confiscate the knife, you still have someone bleeding out on the ground and telling them to walk off the stabbing is not really useful.

Because being fired in the 70s leaves a mortal wound that lasts to the present day. Even in law, once the criminal has been punished, they will be let go eventually and you'll have to make your peace with that.

Gaawa_chan posted...

I refuse to believe that you are so stupid that you can't understand how it might be that a kid whose parents inherited property from their grandparents has an edge over a kid whose parents had no inheritance because their grandparents' property either never existed owing to them being slaves or was destroyed or seized during a race riot thanks to the actions of the US government.

Nobody's denying that, and like I said originally, you have to be a petty little bitch to cry about things like that. That's applicable to essentially every person on earth, everybody has a postion that's better than someone else based on the most likely immoral actions of someone in their lineage. That's life, once future transgressions are blocked, you move on.

Gaawa_chan posted...

That can be the difference between you being housed or homeless, or being able to go to a decent school, or being able to get a higher education, or being able to go to a fucking doctor if you need to, which means it can be the difference between whether or not you get to live long enough to find some bootstraps to attempt to pull yourself up by.

Indeed, in fact white Americans have to contend with paying for medical care because someone in their family thought it would be a smart idea to drag them to America instead of staying in the UK. Should they be looking for reparations from their English ancestors who didn't stop their family going to the states for being in a worse situation? Or is it just shit happens and you live with it. Life's hard, and most people have at least a somewhat shitty hand, all you can do is work on improving your life.

Gaawa_chan posted...

There are people, to this very day, that get shitty medical care because outdated medical textbooks have racist misinformation in them that was designed to post-hoc justify the abuse and neglect of people of color. I hate to break the news to you, Kyuubi, but it turns out that things that happened earlier have an impact on what happens now and what happens now has an impact on what happens in the future, and if there are bad things happening now, you have to actually work to fix them.

You sure do, you could go in to these fields, do new studies, build up useful information. But no, you'd rather bitch and whine about ridiculous nonsense and expect eveybody else to do the legwork to get the things you care about. Cause and effect is very important, and you seem to want to squander your ability to create change to try and make someone else do it for you.

Gaawa_chan posted...

Money is a social construct, that doesn't mean money isn't real. :-/

The problem is people do use "iT's A sOcIaL cOnStRuCt" as a rebuttal to genetics. There wouldn't even be conversation on the topic if people didn't make these disingenuous claims.

oh cute kyubbi is back in full force to talk about race again, anybody have the quote on hand or do I have to dig it up

Kyuubi4269 posted...

In other words:

"Even when problems are addressed, we still think it's a problem, and since it's already defunct, there's nothing you can do to rectify it. Please submit to X group, you are irredeemably a villain for your race."

It's more "the problem isn't actually fixed even though you took away the immediate causes, so keep trying to fix it."

Krazy_Kirby posted...

hair has microscopic differences, front teeth have different shape on the inner side, etc.

In other words, things that mean absolutely nothing for virtually any everyday interactions. Some of those differences are medically relevant, but those that aren't doctors can generally ignore that.

When people say "race is a social construct," they're not saying "race only exists because people say it does," they're saying "race only matters because people say it does." Different races exist, certainly, and they always will, but there's no particular reason for people to care about that at all, let alone to enough of an extent to introduce significant problems.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

And? I've had payment at a job withheld before, should I be going to their corporate office everyday to harass them now it's been resolved? Be a big boy and move on, it's not a concern now.

If you have lasting damages from that they have not been adequately compensated? Yes. Absolutely. If not, then you're creating a false equivalency and your point can be safely dismissed as being nonsense.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Nobody's denying that, and like I said originally, you have to be a petty little b**** to cry about things like that. That's applicable to essentially every person on earth, everybody has a postion that's better than someone else based on the most likely immoral actions of someone in their lineage. That's life, once future transgressions are blocked, you move on.

The whole point is that, on a societal scale, some groups have experienced such significant transgressions that they remain significantly disadvantaged for it. We're not talking about individuals and the differences between them, we're talking about populations, where statistically significant differences do exist.

Also, the idea that "future transgressions are blocked" in a discussion of racism would be hilariously naive if people with the power to act on that belief didn't genuinely believe it.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

You sure do, you could go in to these fields, do new studies, build up useful information. But no, you'd rather b**** and whine about ridiculous nonsense and expect eveybody else to do the legwork to get the things you care about. Cause and effect is very important, and you seem to want to squander your ability to create change to try and make someone else do it for you.

Or you can demand that the people that are already in the positions to effect that change honour the responsibility that those positions carry (or be removed if they refuse to allow the position to be occupied by somebody more scrupulous). It's not remotely reasonable to expect that everybody that finds a problem with society gets themselves into a position to solve that problem personally. Nothing would ever get fixed that way.

Krazy_Kirby posted...

race isn't a social construct, their are biological differences (and I'm not talking about skin color).

admitting there are differences doesn't mean they are bad.

David R. Williams,
Race and health: Basic questions, emerging directions.
Annals of Epidemiology.
https://doi.org/10.1016/S1047-2797(97)00051-3.

First, this paper reviews the evidence suggesting that race is more of a social category than a biological one. Variation in genotypic characteristics exists, but race does not capture it. Second, since racial categories have historically represented and continue to reflect the creation of social, economic, and political disadvantage that is consequential for well-being, it is important to continue to study racial differences in health. Finally, the paper outlines directions for a more deliberate and thoughtful examination of the role of race in health.

Race is typically used in a mechanical and uncritical manner as a proxy for unmeasured biological, socioeconomic, and/or sociocultural factors. Future research should explore how clearly delineated environmental demands combine with genetic susceptibilities as well as with specified behavioral and physiological responses to increase the risk of illness for groups differentially exposed to psychosocial adversity.

Marks, J.
Science and Race.
American Behavioral Scientist
133. https://doi.org/10.1177/0002764296040002003

The scientific study of human biological variation has consistently produced knowledge that contradicts widespread popular, or folk, wisdom. Although people and the populations they belong to certainly differ from one another, they do not appear to do so in such a manner that permits the identification of a small number of human subspecies or races. Classification of people into races involves cultural, not biological, knowledge; and race is inherited according to cultural rules that stand in opposition to biology. Thus race is not a useful biological concept. To understand whether differences exist between populations in cognitive ability (or any other inherent gifts) requires confronting the limits of scientific knowledge.

Richard Cooper, Richard David
The Biological Concept of Race and Its Application to Public Health and Epidemiology.
Journal of Health Politics, Policy, and Law 1 https://doi.org/10.1215/03616878-11-1-97

The category of race is widely used in public health. Although its significance may be clear-cut in some practical situations, an adequate theoretical construct for the concept of race does not exist. Public health appears to lag far behind the other biological sciences in the effort to grapple with the idea of race and its implications for the nature-nurture question. This paper outlines the current anthropological and social perspective on race, and applies this view to problems of disease epidemiology. It is proposed that uncritical use of the traditional biological concept of race has distorted etiological thinking in public health and has proven an obstacle in the development of effective intervention strategies. The pragmatism of medicine and its isolation from social science may account for much of this backwardness.

There are dozens more peer reviewed and scientific articles about this out there.

Can't yall agree that it's both?

jesus christ, i can't believe there are people here who are like "racist policies are gone now, so why are people still complaining"

...wait, i can believe it, sadly

Feminism for black people.

Fam_Fam posted...

jesus christ, i can't believe there are people here who are like "racist policies are gone now, so why are people still complaining"

...wait, i can believe it, sadly

ya, which is why I used a nuclear analogy - just because the cleanup is complete and the problem solved doesn't mean there isn't longstanding fallout

Lokarin posted...

ya, which is why I used a nuclear analogy - just because the cleanup is complete and the problem solved doesn't mean there isn't longstanding fallout

That's also why I brought up my question. Because it's like accusing someone who worked there of having brought about the destruction of said plant when they were just a janitor there. CRT is basically saying that everyone who ever worked at said plant is responsible for the deformed babies when, the reality is, most of the people who did work there were just doing their job. While a portion are certainly responsible, making a blanket statement like 'all people who worked there caused this' is insane and accuses a lot of innocent people of being complacent in something they likely didn't even know was a thing. Likewise, just because said radiation-affected children exist doesn't mean we should be shaming the children who weren't for 'having a better life'.

Thing is, both of those things are what's happening with CRT. People are being treated like monsters for 'benefiting from the system' or what have you and basically supporting these institutions when the reality is that the vast majority were just people trying to survive and get by in life. Likewise it's punishing people who weren't even alive at the time for things that their parents/grandpartents/etc did.

This isn't to say that said radiation-affected children't don't exist. You are right and there is a 'problem' that needs fixing. It's that blaming the janitor for management's mistake is wrong (I.E. blame the actually racist people, not the people who were just trying to get by) as well as their kids who weren't even alive then is wrong as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

I guess I just don't understand what exactly it is. Why does it "have white guilt" baked into it?

Because that's how and why it was designed? It's like asking why any other racist program has racism in it.

If the question why teach a racist program, it's basically to make it easier to pass racist laws giving direct preferential treatment on the basis of race (a concept that would and should offend any believer in equality and fairness, so you have to skew peoples' beliefs early). Which, by the way, takes us further and further from an equitable, anti-racist society. It just shifts the racism further in one direction.

This thread is a perfect microcosm of what's happening in the country. People aren't actually researching it, they straight up ignore when it's explained to them (like how I already said the nuclear spill analogy was wrong), and just say it demonizes white people.

It's something that was never an issue until Republicans needed something to frighten their viewers with.

Unbridled9 posted...

That's also why I brought up my question. Because it's like accusing someone who worked there of having brought about the destruction of said plant when they were just a janitor there. CRT is basically saying that everyone who ever worked at said plant is responsible for the deformed babies when, the reality is, most of the people who did work there were just doing their job. While a portion are certainly responsible, making a blanket statement like 'all people who worked there caused this' is insane and accuses a lot of innocent people of being complacent in something they likely didn't even know was a thing. Likewise, just because said radiation-affected children exist doesn't mean we should be shaming the children who weren't for 'having a better life'.

Thing is, both of those things are what's happening with CRT. People are being treated like monsters for 'benefiting from the system' or what have you and basically supporting these institutions when the reality is that the vast majority were just people trying to survive and get by in life. Likewise it's punishing people who weren't even alive at the time for things that their parents/grandpartents/etc did.

This isn't to say that said radiation-affected children't don't exist. You are right and there is a 'problem' that needs fixing. It's that blaming the janitor for management's mistake is wrong (I.E. blame the actually racist people, not the people who were just trying to get by) as well as their kids who weren't even alive then is wrong as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Fair enough, I'm not, like, a cunning linguist or anything...

I was trying to match the real-world scenario of a bank denying a loan to a black family not being racist because they're following the zoning guidelines... when those guidelines were racially informed; it's bigotry radiation.

Unbridled9 posted...

CRT is basically saying that everyone who ever

No, that's the Fox News version

Lokarin posted...

Fair enough, I'm not, like, a cunning linguist or anything...

I was trying to match the real-world scenario of a bank denying a loan to a black family not being racist because they're following the zoning guidelines... when those guidelines were racially informed; it's bigotry radiation.

Well, okay, but in that situation is it the bank's fault for following the zoning guidelines or the fault of the people in government for not fixing the zoning guide lines? Also, how would you FIX the situation as opposed to just saying it needs fixing? If you think the bank should grant the loan anyways, then should the same apply to a family of a different racial background as well? Or should an entirely different system be put into place and how could it be built to not have said racist elements and so-forth?

Like I said, there's some huge issues that definitely need addressing like the amount of PoC's in jail, but the solution isn't to just... free criminals. At least not to free criminals just because of their race. The whole prison and justice system in general needs an overhaul and a huge part of that would be fixing how harsh some of the crimes (especially lesser ones) are punished. However there's still going to be people in prison and there's no guarantee that the reform will result in a prison population that's representative of the civilian population either.

There are problems with race that certainly need fixing. However CRT is like using a bonfire to fix a broken power outlet. It's the wrong tool and just going to make everything worse. Instead figure out which systems actually need fixing and what the problems with them are on an individual basis so the right fix can be applied. If PoC's are having trouble graduating school, figure out what they're struggling in and develop a support structure to help students who are struggling in that area; don't just lower scores and say that the fault is a racist school system or that math is racist or something.

Unbridled9 posted...

Also, how would you FIX the situation as opposed to just saying it needs fixing?

That's the actual problem; There are people who think the system doesn't need fixing and refuse to acknowledge the historical context...

But you're right, it's a problem that should be fixed

Unbridled9 posted...

Also, how would you FIX the situation as opposed to just saying it needs fixing?

You're asking the right questions but still somehow with a negative context. The point is to identify what needs to be fixed and try to come up with reasonable solutions.

Unbridled9 posted...

figure out which systems actually need fixing and what the problems with them are on an individual basis so the right fix can be applied.

That. Literally that. Where are people getting this "free all criminals, free money, fuck white people" stuff from? (Rhetorical question; we all know where)

As demonstrated, there are many people who bury their heads and refuse to acknowledge that any such problems exist at all; it's pretty difficult to get anything done as long as that mentality exists.

Unbridled9 posted...

CRT is like using a bonfire to fix a broken power outlet. It's the wrong tool and just going to make everything worse

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/3/8/AAFUswAADLTi.jpg

aiyobro posted...

8 years of being taught it in school wasn't enough

If you took 8 years of an optional course and still didn't learn anything then that sounds more like a "you" problem.

adjl posted...

It's more "the problem isn't actually fixed even though you took away the immediate causes, so keep trying to fix it."

If you ever defined terms that actually resolve the problem, there'd be anything to debate. As is, that's just a claim on your end that's unsubstantiated.

adjl posted...

If you have lasting damages from that they have not been adequately compensated? Yes. Absolutely. If not, then you're creating a false equivalency and your point can be safely dismissed as being nonsense.

Can't call it a false equivalency when both cases are adequately compensated. You may not be happy with the end result, but you have failed to establish any terms any sane person could remotely be expected to meet, and others are happy.

adjl posted...

The whole point is that, on a societal scale, some groups have experienced such significant transgressions that they remain significantly disadvantaged for it. We're not talking about individuals and the differences between them, we're talking about populations, where statistically significant differences do exist.

The entirety of working class in the world are the working class due to other people doing significant transgressions, they remain significantly disadvantaged for it. It's not reasonable to rob everybody born middle to upper class for being such, they're not doing anything to you.

We hate on Bezos and such for being dickheads now, there's plenty of people with wealth the general public couldn't care less about. This is a distinction of people that has objective meaning, unlike race. It's more stupid to translate that to race.

adjl posted...

Also, the idea that "future transgressions are blocked" in a discussion of racism would be hilariously naive if people with the power to act on that belief didn't genuinely believe it.

As far as the law is concerned, certain groups are protected above others that you believe are oppressed, legally it's more than blocked.

adjl posted...

Or you can demand that the people that are already in the positions to effect that change honour the responsibility that those positions carry (or be removed if they refuse to allow the position to be occupied by somebody more scrupulous).

Absolutely nobody owes you work. They have a responsibility to themselves and those they choose to protect, that is how individualism works, freedom to do as you wish, not as others deem.

adjl posted...

It's not remotely reasonable to expect that everybody that finds a problem with society gets themselves into a position to solve that problem personally. Nothing would ever get fixed that way.

Literally how revolutions happen, countries form, political parties build. It is beyond reasonable to expect people to work together in their shared interest, and those who don't have no right to complain about something they never worked for.