Current Events > I wonder how Picard would have handled the Shapeshifter threat in Star Trek.

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Doe
01/15/22 1:32:52 PM
#1:


In DS9 when the Dominion war kicks into gear, there's a lot of turmoil over to what lengths the Federation should go to filter changelings. Even Sisko fell into the paranoia and ceased to trust his own father without a blood test.
However, a recurring theme of TNG is Picard's absolute refusal to tread on the fundamental principles he holds; he is an opposite to later Sisko in that Picard utterly rejects ends justifying the means. In episodes like The Drumhead, he stonewalls a security investigation into a recruit who lied about Romulan ancestry, for example.

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Doe
01/16/22 4:35:57 PM
#2:


Ya know

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R1masher
01/16/22 4:40:32 PM
#3:


I dont watch that Naruto crap

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#4
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Doe
01/16/22 5:14:53 PM
#5:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Picard's actually tries to block prime directive violations and tends to end up acting only after someone else on the enterprise already fucked it up

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Tyranthraxus
01/16/22 5:17:57 PM
#6:


Doe posted...
In DS9 when the Dominion war kicks into gear, there's a lot of turmoil over to what lengths the Federation should go to filter changelings. Even Sisko fell into the paranoia and ceased to trust his own father without a blood test.
However, a recurring theme of TNG is Picard's absolute refusal to tread on the fundamental principles he holds; he is an opposite to later Sisko in that Picard utterly rejects ends justifying the means. In episodes like The Drumhead, he stonewalls a security investigation into a recruit who lied about Romulan ancestry, for example.

You mean like if Picard was on DS9 instead of Sisko or if the changeling was on the NCC1701-D? Because someone like Data or Troy could probably figure it out.

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Doe
01/16/22 5:19:53 PM
#7:


Tyranthraxus posted...
You mean like if Picard was on DS9 instead of Sisko or if the changeling was on the NCC1701-D? Because someone like Data or Troy could probably figure it out.
No I mean what policy what Picard support regarding testing not just on Federation starships and space stations but also civilian populations like Earth

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#8
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nexigrams
01/16/22 5:23:37 PM
#9:


Wasn't there an episode about this? And he tells Data to gas the ship and give everyone amnesia about the cause of it so they don't all fall back into paranoia again?

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Doe
01/16/22 5:30:16 PM
#10:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

The one thing TNG taught me about empaths is that they do not actually offer any tactical advantages. Remember when that empath was negotiating against Riker for a deal for access to a civilization's new wormhole, he came to ten forward to fuck with Riker about Troi and still lost even though he could tell exactly what Riker was feeling. Considering Dominion foreign intelligence is so advanced I'm sure they could get around empaths with several different strategies.

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Doe
01/16/22 5:31:36 PM
#11:


nexigrams posted...
Wasn't there an episode about this? And he tells Data to gas the ship and give everyone amnesia about the cause of it so they don't all fall back into paranoia again?
You might be thinking of the one where they ran into an alien species that wanted to blow them up to keep themselves hidden but Picard offered to gas the whole crew as a compromise, but then the newly amnesiac crew accidentally notices the same things that caused them to investigate in the first place.

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Tyranthraxus
01/16/22 5:36:03 PM
#12:


nexigrams posted...
Wasn't there an episode about this? And he tells Data to gas the ship and give everyone amnesia about the cause of it so they don't all fall back into paranoia again?

Unless I'm thinking of the wrong episode, this was about the enterprise discovering a new highly advanced alien species that wanted to be isolated and were not happy about being discovered so as an alternative to killing everyone on the ship they agree to give everyone amnesia but they couldn't do that with Data so Picard ordered him to keep quiet about it after they all regained consciousness.

Problem is they did it in a sloppy way and left too much evidence of foul play so they end up discovering the alien species again.

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nexigrams
01/16/22 5:38:10 PM
#13:


Doe posted...
You might be thinking of the one where they ran into an alien species that wanted to blow them up to keep themselves hidden but Picard offered to gas the whole crew as a compromise, but then the newly amnesiac crew accidentally notices the same things that caused them to investigate in the first place.

Night Terrors is the one I'm thinking of. I looked it up, I was thinking of the episode where Data orders Picard to go to sleep as his last duty being acting Captain. I was mixing it up with the gas one yeah, which was actually one of the better episodes in the series imo.

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Doe
01/16/22 5:40:44 PM
#14:


Data ordering everyone to bed and sitting alone in the captain's chair was such a charming episode end

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UnholyMudcrab
01/16/22 5:44:40 PM
#15:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

The application of the Prime Directive in TNG is pretty terrible for the most part. There's a whole lot of "Welp, guess we gotta let them get wiped out," attitudes, when that's not the purpose of the Prime Directive at all.

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coolguyjimmy
01/16/22 5:47:16 PM
#16:


More to the point, what would Sisko have done in the Delta quadrant? I bet he'd have got them all back within like a year, there just would have been a few dead aliens.
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Tyranthraxus
01/16/22 5:48:53 PM
#17:


UnholyMudcrab posted...
The application of the Prime Directive in TNG is pretty terrible for the most part. There's a whole lot of "Welp, guess we gotta let them get wiped out," attitudes, when that's not the purpose of the Prime Directive at all.

No it pretty much is. At least when the people doing the wiping out are themselves. If someone else like the romulans decided to bomb a primitive planet from orbit it would not be considered a violation to stop them.

Basically it answers questions like "Why didn't the vulcans stop Hitler?"

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StarDestroyer
01/16/22 5:50:11 PM
#18:


coolguyjimmy posted...
More to the point, what would Sisko have done in the Delta quadrant? I bet he'd have got them all back within like a year, there just would have been a few dead aliens.

Sisko would have brought the crew home by the end of the first episode.
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UnholyMudcrab
01/16/22 5:57:56 PM
#19:


Tyranthraxus posted...
No it pretty much is. At least when the people doing the wiping out are themselves. If someone else like the romulans decided to bomb a primitive planet from orbit it would not be considered a violation to stop them.

Basically it answers questions like "Why didn't the vulcans stop Hitler?"
Alright, I'll rephrase, then. That's not what I feel the Prime Directive should be about, because I consider it to be little more than genocide by inaction. Whatever the interstellar equivalent of a crime against humanity would be.

If they let a species go extinct when they could have prevented it, then the blood of that species is on their hands, and no amount of hand-wringing about the "natural course" of the society can absolve them of that.

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Doe
01/16/22 6:36:44 PM
#20:


The thing with the Prime Directive is that it's contrived by the writers to be a sensible principle on paper whose application in extreme scenarios causes values dissonance and readily sets up conflicts between the cast. In practice we see in the show that officers' sympathies generally beat out adherence to the code even when the ship's command is an ethical hardliner like Picard, and Starfleet pretty much throws reports of such incidents in the trash or at worst gives out slaps on the wrist.

I think the main argument in favor of the Prime directive is that breaking it is sort of a slippery slope. First we intervene in pre-interstellar civilizations when they face total Oblivion like the destruction of their planet. But then how about if there's a local global plague that may wipe out 90% of them? 80%? Is there a threshold where intervening isn't considered worth it? If kids are dying of cancer and waving a medical wand can cure it all, why shouldn't we go and do that?

But the thing is once Starfleet shows itself and introduces all this wonderful technology, the native culture will so easily be overpowered by Federation ideas, customs and technology, and the planet becomes a sort of memetic colony of the Federation.

TNG also kinda touched on how this would look if it happened to the Federation with the Borg. The Borg collective actually believes it is doing good to the people it converts into Borg drones by letting them join the collective consciousness and become more than themselves. We see how Hugh missed the collective voices of the Borg while isolated aboard the Enterprise and initially can't understand why Geordi and Co don't want to be assimilated. To him, Federation citizens were leading primitive painful lives and the moral thing to do was to bring them into the Borg. Yet from the eyes of the Enterprise crew and the audience, such an act is terrifying and extremely unethical.

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