Board 8 > Would anyone be interested in setting up some multiplayer randomizers?

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Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4
Mobilezoid
01/14/22 10:08:19 PM
#1:


I'm not sure if it'd be against the rules to post a link to this because for some games it involves emulation, but you can easily find it just by googling 'archipelago randomizer'.

Anyway, one of my friends stumbled across this and we've all been having fun with it. Basically, Archipelago randomizes several different game worlds and shuffles the items between them. I could find some super missiles for a Super Metroid player in my Subnautica game, and then the SM player finds some bombs for an OoT player, who then finds me a laser cutter fragment. Setup and how everything works varies by game, there are info pages on the website that explain it better than I can.

What made me think of B8 was that I recently joined a massive 400 world asynchronous randomizer on the Archipelago discord, and I thought it might be fun to try and set something up here (on a much smaller scale!). We wouldn't need to play at the same times or anything, any items found will get sent to other players whenever they next check in. There are hint systems where you can look up the location of key items, too, and let people know to get over there and grab it if you're stuck.

Supported Games
A Link to the Past
Factorio
Final Fantasy
Minecraft
Ocarina of Time
Risk of Rain 2
Rogue Legacy
Secret of Evermore
Slay the Spire
Subnautica
Super Metroid
Timespinner

I'm a Subnautica player myself, but as you can see that's a varied selection! They're also still adding more, Rogue Legacy just became an option in the last week or so.

I can answer more questions (to a point, I'm by no means an expert on this) but mostly I'm just gauging interest at this point. Let me know if you see any game up there that you wouldn't mind randomizing and playing as a group

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ChaosTonyV4
01/14/22 10:49:22 PM
#2:


I genuinely dont understand what this means.

Are the games all modded to have items from the other games in them?

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Mobilezoid
01/14/22 10:59:11 PM
#3:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
I genuinely dont understand what this means.

Are the games all modded to have items from the other games in them?
I apologize, as I said I'm no expert so I'm a bad person to have to explain this.

If you understand how a normal item randomizer works (example, in Super Metroid, where you normally find a missile, you might find an energy tank instead, or Wave Beam, and all items in the world are shuffled for unique progression every time), this is the same thing just between multiple people and multiple games. Where a Super Metroid player would normally find a missile, now it might be an item for a LttP player or an OoT player, and the Metroid player's items are scattered across everyone else's worlds as well.

Whether it mods the game depends on the game. For Subnautica, I think the client just checks what a PDA unlocks when I pick it up and then sends that item out, but for Super Metroid and LttP I know you need to download a modified game file.

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Tom Bombadil
01/15/22 12:10:15 AM
#4:


I don't really know any of those games super well but it seems silly and I like silly

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The Mana Sword
01/15/22 12:14:54 AM
#5:


400 world? That seems like it would have taken forever to generate, and likely result in a ton of BK mode situations.

Anywho, Ive done a bunch of LttP multiworld recently and could potentially be interested.

edit: oh, it was an async? Huh, I didnt even know that was possible.

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Tom Bombadil
01/15/22 12:19:55 AM
#6:


wait so is it like one game per player? Like I'd be Slay the Spire and not play Subnautica?

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The Mana Sword
01/15/22 12:30:03 AM
#7:


Tom Bombadil posted...
wait so is it like one game per player? Like I'd be Slay the Spire and not play Subnautica?

Correct

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Robazoid
01/15/22 12:38:51 AM
#8:


Now that I'm at a real keyboard I guess I can explain a bit more about how this works (though, again, google 'archipelago randomizer', it has more info). Basically you'd need to install the Archipelago client, and there are different steps to doing that depending on what games you want to set it up for. There's a page for each game on the website that explains how to set up that specific game. Then there's a settings page for each game where you select the kind of randomizer you want (for Super Metroid, for example, you can set your starting location to the Landing Site so you don't need to waste time on Ceres, along with dozens of other options I don't fully understand). This settings page gets you something called a yaml, which is basically a file with your specified game setup. On the Archipelago website, you upload a bunch of these yaml files for however many people/games you have participating, and then it randomizes everything. Some players will then need to download rom files for their games while others just need to log into the client in their games. In Subnautica, for example, I just need to put in the archipelago server number and my player name and then I'm connected.

Tom Bombadil posted...
wait so is it like one game per player? Like I'd be Slay the Spire and not play Subnautica?

You can have more than one but then you need to swap between them and if you need to keep going back and forth getting items for yourself it might get annoying. In the 400-world one I'm participating in a lot of people have more than one slot but the odds of you having anything significant for your other slots is pretty slim.

The Mana Sword posted...
400 world? That seems like it would have taken forever to generate, and likely result in a ton of BK mode situations.

Yeah, no idea how long it took them to generate it or what kind of logic Archipelago uses to prevent runs from getting stuck, but I've played several multiworlds with my friends with up to five games and we haven't run into an unwinnable situation yet. In the 400 world one I've been waiting a few days now for an item I need in Subnautica so it's definitely slow going, though.

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The Mana Sword
01/15/22 12:42:40 AM
#9:


The async thing is kinda fascinating, though Im not sure Id have the patience for that. Ive only ever done synchronous ones.

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Robazoid
01/15/22 12:53:02 AM
#10:


I think playing these async is kind of neat. I like checking in each day to see if anyone sent me a damn laser cutter yet, and it can be fun to push further than you should technically be able to (in games that allow it, anyway) and get neat items for other people way earlier than they would normally have them. It can be slow though, especially in one as large as the one I joined where a lot of people have barely progressed their worlds while others have beaten theirs. B8 will have far fewer people/worlds and should go a lot smoother/faster.

I definitely prefer playing all at the same time with my friends and chatting while we go through our individual games, but something like that wouldn't really work on B8. With async, people could play at all different times and time zones.

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Robazoid
01/15/22 12:59:55 AM
#11:


I guess I can link to the google doc for the 400 world one I'm participating in, just for fun. Anyone who joins their discord could access it, and there's no potentially moddable emulation stuff on here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FVrFC8t3L8E-hsGOyn3FQan1e8WA9WUest6BtSSxT6o/edit#gid=1844616997

I'm player 389!

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Colegreen_c12
01/15/22 1:38:59 AM
#12:


Sounds interesting. Slay the Spire is the only one of these I'd be interested in doing though.

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Sheep007
01/15/22 2:32:25 AM
#13:


I can do Link to the Past randomiser simply enough and I know OoT rando well enough to be able to fill in if needed since it's async.

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Shonen_Bat
01/15/22 2:53:21 AM
#14:


Not too sure how this is set up yet but I'd be interested. I've played the two Zeldas a good bit so I'd go for one of those if possible.

Timespinner is a cool game I didn't expect to see, only done one playthrough of it though.

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Dels
01/15/22 2:56:41 AM
#15:


the initial concept sounded interesting but based on how you described it, it kind of sounds like "just play this game like you normally would but you'll occasionally get locked out until you get a notification that you now have the item you need" which sounds much less interesting if i'm being honest
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azuarc
01/15/22 3:06:30 AM
#16:


I play LTTP rando, but I've never really tried to work out how the whole bizhawk thing works.

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MZero
01/15/22 3:08:04 AM
#17:


The only randomizer i have experience with is Hollow Knight but I'd be interested in a group that wasn't too serious

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Shonen_Bat
01/15/22 3:44:11 AM
#18:


Will I need to set it up for every game involved or just the one I'm playing?

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Mobilezoid
01/15/22 4:07:30 AM
#19:


Dels posted...
the initial concept sounded interesting but based on how you described it, it kind of sounds like "just play this game like you normally would but you'll occasionally get locked out until you get a notification that you now have the item you need" which sounds much less interesting if i'm being honest
I won't lie, playing asynchronously can feel like that sometimes. I view it as kind of a puzzle, and some games allow for creative progression depending on the items you get. But it isn't for everyone, that's why I'm gauging interest!

Shonen_Bat posted...
Will I need to set it up for every game involved or just the one I'm playing?
If you mean while installing Archipelago, just the one you're playing (just uncheck everything else. Subnautica doesn't even technically need the client, though, so I'm not an expert on installing it). If you mean when we eventually generate the multiworld, only one person sets that up by uploading files with everyone's preferred settings, then we get a link to the room with individual download files for everyone (or whatever their game requires). So other than the one setting it up you never need to deal with anything but your own game

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Reg
01/15/22 8:55:51 AM
#20:


I have done this before with Link to the Past. It's quite cool, but my understanding is that it doesn't work super well for games of disparate lengths. I guess async it probably would, though.
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BetrayedTangy
01/15/22 9:25:12 AM
#21:


Oh I heard about these when I was trying the OoT randomizer, I'd definitely be interested. Not 100% sure on my availability tho

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masterplum
01/15/22 9:30:46 AM
#22:


Mayyyybe but Im really concerned with how long it would take. LttP for instance I know takes hours assuming you dont forget a critical item location

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azuarc
01/15/22 11:11:39 AM
#23:


masterplum posted...
LttP for instance I know takes hours assuming you dont forget a critical item location

If by hours, you mean 2 of them, then yes. Someone brand new to the game might take longer, but your time (on non-multiworlds) will come down very swiftly on subsequent runs.

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Reg
01/15/22 11:18:57 AM
#24:


I mean, I'm not really good at video games but it took me a solid month of playing to go from "Haven't played it before" to "consistently under 2 hours" for lttpr <_<

That said, with the async format that Roba's proposing would mean that you can just play for a bit, then put it down for a while and check in on it next time you're available to do so. You don't have to (And almost certainly won't be able to) play the entire game in one sitting
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BetrayedTangy
01/15/22 2:47:52 PM
#25:


Oh cool I just noticed it was async, yeah I'd be down to do the Minecraft one.

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Robazoid
01/15/22 7:47:17 PM
#26:


Well we have at least a few people who seem interested, so let's give it a shot! I'm sure there will be some hurdles along the way, but I'll enable manual forfeiting so if something goes wrong or you decide you don't want to play anymore you'll be able to give up and send all your game's items to other people. With that in mind, please follow the steps below if you are interested.

1. Choose your game
Bear in mind that your game will be randomized, so you'll be playing in potentially difficult conditions. Also consider what randomization means for your game. For example, in Minecraft, progression is tied to the in-game achievements and you won't even be able to craft a stone pickaxe until you either find or get sent progressive tools 1. Your goal is to beat the Ender Dragon, too, which is why I'm not choosing Minecraft despite how much I love it, hunting achievements and slaying the Ender Dragon isn't my ideal way of playing it. For something like Slay the Spire, you won't get card rewards after battles or items from bosses or chests, those things will get found by others and sent to you. Again, we'll allow forfeiting so there's no danger if you wind up not liking this and want to quit, I just want to make sure people go in with the right mindset.

2. Figure out how to set up your game
I think we're deep enough into the topic that I'm willing to risk linking the website.

https://archipelago.gg/tutorial/

Each game has a different setup, and unless you're playing Subnautica I likely won't be able to help you figure it out. If there's anything you have trouble with, I suggest going to their discord server and asking the nice people there.

3. Let me know if you want any changes to your game's default settings
https://archipelago.gg/games

Each game has a link to a settings page where there might be a few options or a lot of options depending on the game. I think it'll be easiest if I generate the yamls (files with game-specific settings) myself rather than everyone doing their own and sending them to me somehow. For this first test run especially I think we should stick as close to the defaults as possible, but if you see anything important to you that you want to change, let me know.

Optional: You can also use that page to generate your own yaml, which you can then upload in the Start Playing page of the website and generate your own single-player randomized game. This is for anyone who wants to confirm their setup works, if you're able to connect to your own game you'll have no trouble connecting to ours. However, no one should feel the need to do this, we can just make our multiworld and hopefully figure out any problems that arise.

4. Once enough people have informed me that they've figured out their games and any changes to their settings, I can create the necessary yamls, generate a multiworld, and then provide a room link, which will have download files for certain games or a server number for other games to connect to.

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Reg
01/15/22 8:30:20 PM
#27:


I know I want to play Link to the Past for this

I'm not sure if I want to do full keysanity (Big Keys + Small Keys + Maps + Compasses all "Any World") or just defaults, but you 100% don't need to doubt my ability to play/complete the game under either set of settings.

Should probably just do defaults to keep things simple for others, though.
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NFUN
01/15/22 8:31:16 PM
#28:


i see factorio i say yes

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Tom Bombadil
01/15/22 9:01:58 PM
#29:


I'll try Slay the Spire? I make no promises as to my skill or speed but I'll try, and you can ping me to forfeit if I'm not doing an adequate job. Default settings seem fine but I'm open to changes, especially ones that will make it easier.

Also, I have completed the arduous task of installing three mods through the Steam workshop and am attempting to un-rust myself on the base game.

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The Mana Sword
01/15/22 9:09:35 PM
#30:


Reg posted...
I know I want to play Link to the Past for this

I'm not sure if I want to do full keysanity (Big Keys + Small Keys + Maps + Compasses all "Any World") or just defaults, but you 100% don't need to doubt my ability to play/complete the game under either set of settings.

Should probably just do defaults to keep things simple for others, though.

inverted crosskeys or bust

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Reg
01/15/22 9:13:20 PM
#31:


The Mana Sword posted...
inverted crosskeys or bust
I probably could! I'd just have to keep good notes because it's async.

I've only played a couple of entrance shuffles before though. Not really my thing. Especially since I do more with this game as a race commentator than a player these days and it's hard to talk about a race and make notes simultaneously

(As far as I can see, Archipelago doesn't support inverted though - It's a total reimplementation of the randomizer and does not have everything the main lttp randomizer does. Otherwise I'd have asked for it. I'm a fan of the mode)
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BetrayedTangy
01/15/22 9:40:07 PM
#32:


Yeah I'll lock in on Minecraft, gives me a good excuse to explore the new updates.

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The Mana Sword
01/15/22 9:49:20 PM
#33:


Yeah, inverted is a bad mode (imo) anyway, I was mostly just kidding. I think Ive seen you in comms a few times for League and dailies and such.

Anyway, I think Ill actually sit out on this, my rando plate is already kinda full. Im in a multiworld tournament that starts next week and then also in an ADKeys tournament that starts the following week.

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Reg
01/15/22 9:51:57 PM
#34:


The Mana Sword posted...
Anyway, I think Ill actually sit out on this, my rando plate is already kinda full. Im in a multiworld tournament that starts next week and then also in an ADKeys tournament that starts the following week.
Yo, good luck. Hammer tried to get me to play in that but I wasn't feeling up to the commitment of actually playing a tournament instead of just volunteering for comms when I feel like it, and it wound up getting a pretty solid turnout anyways.
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The Mana Sword
01/15/22 9:56:10 PM
#35:


Thanks! I mostly in it for fun, not planning taking it too seriously. Focusing more on the ADKeys one because thats a lot more competitive.

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JeffreyRaze
01/15/22 10:48:11 PM
#36:


I'm down to play Rogue Legacy. Curious to see how a rando even works with this one, it'll be fun. Default settings should be fine.

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Colegreen_c12
01/16/22 12:05:12 AM
#37:


I'm assuming multiple people can do the same game in which case I'll sign up for slay the spire. I just want my character to be random instead of set on ironclad

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Robazoid
01/16/22 2:41:00 AM
#38:


These are the people who are in so far (NFUN posted after my big post but it seemed more like general interest than a guarantee, let me know if you're in this for sure)

1. Robazoid (Subnautica) (Default)
2. Reg (A Link to the Past) (Default unless you confirm you want keysanity)
3. Tom Bombadil (Slay the Spire) (Default, which means Ironclad unless you want random too)
4. BetrayedTangy (Minecraft) (Default)
5. JeffreyRaze (Rogue Legacy) (Default)
6. Colegreen_c12 (Slay the Spire) (Random character)

I'm not sure how long to wait for more people, but I'll give it a bit. Plus this will mostly be a test run. We could always do more with different people in the future!

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Sheep007
01/16/22 4:21:49 AM
#39:


I'd be interested in doing OoT.

Settings changes

Zora's Fountain - Open
Gerudo Fortress - Open
Adult Trade Sequence earliest item - Claim Check
Complete Mask Quest - Yes
Tokens Required for LACS - 0
Background Music - Randomised
Fanfares - Randomised
Ocarina Songs as fanfares - Random

I kinda wanna do a bunch of the shuffles but that is a guaranteed way to put an extra couple hundred items in my game and send almost everyone into BK mode because I'm missing song of storms or boomerang or giant's wallet or some crap.

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Tom Bombadil
01/16/22 10:56:23 AM
#40:


I'll take random sure

For card drops, do I get them again if I die, or do I need to make em count the first time?

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NFUN
01/16/22 12:53:18 PM
#41:


I'm in. I'll look at the settings in a bit

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Mobilezoid
01/16/22 1:46:19 PM
#42:


Tom Bombadil posted...
I'll take random sure

For card drops, do I get them again if I die, or do I need to make em count the first time?
My understanding is that you get it all back again if you die. This supposedly makes Slay the Spire one of the quickest and easiest ones in the randomizer because eventually you're starting a run with a bunch of relics and card draws. I've never tried this game myself, though.

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ChaosTonyV4
01/16/22 1:55:20 PM
#43:


How does Factorio work? You get research randomly?

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Mobilezoid
01/16/22 2:03:38 PM
#44:


Yeah, other people can send research and the Factorio player researches items for other people.

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Robazoid
01/16/22 2:27:22 PM
#45:


I'm going to @Shonen_Bat for showing the most interest out of everyone who posted but hasn't shown up yet. We're at 9 right now as listed below, though more are still welcome! I think I'd like to generate the world later today, then people would have Sunday evening and the rest of the week/next weekend to play at their own pace. If anyone misses out, I'm hoping this is something we'll do every so often so they'll have another chance.

1. Robazoid (Subnautica) (Default)
2. Reg (A Link to the Past) (Default unless you confirm you want keysanity)
3. Tom Bombadil (Slay the Spire) (Random character)
4. BetrayedTangy (Minecraft) (Default)
5. JeffreyRaze (Rogue Legacy) (Default)
6. Colegreen_c12 (Slay the Spire) (Random character)
7. Sheep007 (Ocarina of Time) (Various setting changes)
8. NFUN (Factorio) (Default unless I'm told otherwise)

Also, my brother wants to join in so unless anyone has an objection to a non-b8er:

9. Razenclaf (A Link to the Past)

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Reg
01/16/22 2:39:20 PM
#46:


Just give me the defaults, and we'll see how it goes.

If it goes well and we do another one of these I'll make some changes
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BetrayedTangy
01/16/22 2:49:25 PM
#47:


Yeah default works for me as well, my only concern was the really hard advancements, but it's nice to see they're turned off.

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NFUN
01/16/22 3:38:35 PM
#48:


Factorio:

Rocket Silo: Randomize
Satellite: Randomize
Recipe time: Chaos

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Lord Ephraim
01/16/22 4:11:27 PM
#49:


I did a multiworld Ocarina of Time randomizer but let me tell you, they can take 7-10 hours and most people aren't willing to save progress and finish it at a later time.

Most of the time you are waiting on one player to find that one progression item that unlocks progression for everyone else, and it's always in a dumb location.

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JeffreyRaze
01/16/22 5:05:34 PM
#50:


We have an advantage here in that three players are playing games that don't have hard requirements for progress (Slay the Spire and Rogue Legacy) so if things get jammed up there's always an option for those players to just push on and find something.

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