Poll of the Day > Outrage after Trans MMA Fighter and former US Veteran DEFEATS Female Opponent!!!

(+) Yeah! (+)

ITT, sexual dimorphism is not a thing

let me guess, you idiots are also anti vax and think the earth is flat, right? Did you all vote for trump too?

Nichtcrawler X posted...

People are (obviously) born in their own body, but that body can still conflict with what they feel.

And gender isn't a feeling. Feeling something doesn't influence reality
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ReturnOfFa posted...

Ohhh sorry, maybe you only saw the big picture I posted, fair enough. I also posted all of these links dispersed throughout the topic.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51666728

https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2019/11/15/iaaf-regulations-for-female-athletes-with-high-testosterone/

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2021.608328/full

https://www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/faq/how-does-science-explain-transgenderism/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

They all say the same thing.

Firstly our methods of defining female and male brain are flawed.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2021.705106/full

This is the result of using science to prove philosophy. Theres several flaws with the approach of claiming brain similarities to common conditions in the opposite gender = proof that sex is a social construct.

They focus on the studies that support their findings ONLY while ignoring others.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28972892/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21195418/

Science is important in defining objective terms and labels for cross examination and referencing in regards to our physical world.

There are absolutely instances where atypical brain differences are observed in trans individuals, however these findings are not consistent, and antigender activists use these findings to try proving a negative.

Plus there are people who do not identify as trans with these brain abnormalities. Are they in denial? Do we begin assigning gender based on brain scans instead of overall physical biology?

Secondly there are trans individuals who do not show these brain differences between individuals before HRT. Are they faking? Should brain scans be required before sex reassignment is allowed?

Thirdly trans individuals express the behaviors of the opposite sex based on local culture in relation to behavior seen as masculine/feminine based on those cultures.

https://open.maricopa.edu/culturepsychology/chapter/stereotypes-and-gender-roles/

If transsexualism was universal in its expression cross culture as many behavior are between biological sex, consistent in the observed differences in the brain, detectable BEFORE puberty like inter-sexed individuals are observable in the womb based on their chromosomal signature, AAAAND the vast majority of individuals in this category all expressed a desire to transition or personal view of themselves as being the opposite sex then one could make the scientific claim of genetic determinism towards sexual biology existing outside our established knowledge of dimorphic xx/xy chromosomal split.

As all research stands evidence points to transexualism being a combination of psychological factors and cultural interpretation of expected gendered behavior being the primary cause behind these individuals personal struggles with accepting their physical bodies. Current brain studies are inconsistent in methodology and findings to prove gendered brains while denying human brain plasticity and environmental impact on brain development.

At most these studies are helpful in determining the degree which dysmorphia affects the individuals suffering from body image rejection the same as many other equally common body rejection disorders which preset atypical brain pattern development.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

And gender isn't a feeling. Feeling something doesn't influence reality

Feeling, "what they know to be correct", whatever, you know what I meant.

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helIy posted...

i think i'm going to side with the edu link, and not some biased blog post lmao.

It's not even a real university.
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I wonder if people like ReturnofFa or helly even read through these supposedly scientific "facts" and not just the headlines. Usually what happens is people posts link to a number of articles that agree with their opinion and calling it a day. It would be much more convincing if people started explaining in their own words why they're right or quickly explain the science behind it, then and only then throwing in their sources afterwards.

"Proof" is specific to math and has a very specific usage, to go and say "It's proven" is adding a burding of proof and I read through these articles by ReturnofFa without seeing anything even resembling scientific proof. We all know that there are people who honestly are convinced that they're the gender they think they are but this area is still relatively new and things are still being discovered as we learn more.

We still don't know enough about the human brain to understand the thought processes down to exact results, otherwise we would be able to predict with a 100% success rate what number a given person is thinking about merely by scanning the brain in realtime.
What we CAN do and have done is observing the chromsomes in cells to determine the sex / gender of mammals and yes there are most exceptions to this when mutations happen just as there is with pretty much any part of a human / animal

Unfortunately there's no way to say these things without get insta-banned without any proper reason or the slightest explaination
Yet personally attacking other people seems to go completely unpunished because they're being "nice", so nice that they call other people literally brain dead quote:

Notschmendrake posted...

ITT, sexual dimorphism is not a thing

let me guess, you idiots are also anti vax and think the earth is flat, right? Did you all vote for trump too?

And no I'm not American so I didn't even get the chance to vote for Trump and even if I was, what the hell is that kind of ludicrous assumption even to begin with?

I was gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and wait a bit to see when he was going to get moderated but that hasn't happened. To be honest I don't care as I support freedom of speech but yeah I guess I'm a bit salty cause it seems to be favouring only one viewpoint, which is kinda odd.
It is however lovely to see where the moderators stand on this and this post probably wont last 10 min cause I myself have been very "hateful"

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Yes, I do read the studies I post, thank you very much. Let's stick to the content, not to personal jabs.

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bulbinking posted...

They all say the same thing.

Firstly our methods of defining female and male brain are flawed.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2021.705106/full

This is the result of using science to prove philosophy. Theres several flaws with the approach of claiming brain similarities to common conditions in the opposite gender = proof that sex is a social construct.

They focus on the studies that support their findings ONLY while ignoring others.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28972892/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21195418/

Science is important in defining objective terms and labels for cross examination and referencing in regards to our physical world.

There are absolutely instances where atypical brain differences are observed in trans individuals, however these findings are not consistent, and antigender activists use these findings to try proving a negative.

Plus there are people who do not identify as trans with these brain abnormalities. Are they in denial? Do we begin assigning gender based on brain scans instead of overall physical biology?

Secondly there are trans individuals who do not show these brain differences between individuals before HRT. Are they faking? Should brain scans be required before sex reassignment is allowed?

Thirdly trans individuals express the behaviors of the opposite sex based on local culture in relation to behavior seen as masculine/feminine based on those cultures.

https://open.maricopa.edu/culturepsychology/chapter/stereotypes-and-gender-roles/

If transsexualism was universal in its expression cross culture as many behavior are between biological sex, consistent in the observed differences in the brain, detectable BEFORE puberty like inter-sexed individuals are observable in the womb based on their chromosomal signature, AAAAND the vast majority of individuals in this category all expressed a desire to transition or personal view of themselves as being the opposite sex then one could make the scientific claim of genetic determinism towards sexual biology existing outside our established knowledge of dimorphic xx/xy chromosomal split.

As all research stands evidence points to transexualism being a combination of psychological factors and cultural interpretation of expected gendered behavior being the primary cause behind these individuals personal struggles with accepting their physical bodies. Current brain studies are inconsistent in methodology and findings to prove gendered brains while denying human brain plasticity and environmental impact on brain development.

At most these studies are helpful in determining the degree which dysmorphia affects the individuals suffering from body image rejection the same as many other equally common body rejection disorders which preset atypical brain pattern development.

First link is an article, not a study. It is very technical, and does NOT indicate anything upholding your point of view.

Both of the study links you provided have very, very small sample sizes.

With the third bit you posted (that I highlighted); you create your own conclusion from another article. Nothing inside the article argues against the existence of trans individuals. You are extrapolating your own personal feelings from these.

Really don't understand how you think that arguing for trans existence someone refutes brain plasticity. Who the hell said that? Nobody.

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If Arv punched her would that be considered male on female assault

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Sexual dimorphism is not the same thing as transgenderism at all

Why are some people so willfully ignorant and hateful

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Krow_Incarnate posted...

Since we're asking stupid questions, why have weight divisions either?

Because not having weight divisions has historically lead to uninteresting competition and an increased risk of injury.

Your turn.


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bulbinking posted...

Plus there are people who do not identify as trans with these brain abnormalities. Are they in denial? Do we begin assigning gender based on brain scans instead of overall physical biology?

You could always ask them how they feel about their gender and treat them accordingly. That seems like an absurdly complex, difficult approach compared to conducting exhaustive brain scans and measurements of hormones, but there might be some merit to it.

Perhaps a slight oversimplification, but the basic gist of it remains valid: If people feel wrong forcing themselves to behave like the gender their genitals suggest they are, what other measurements matter? You can point out that you don't see a neuroanatomical basis for those feelings all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they're there, nor does it change the fact that they're going to be happier if you respect them.

Just let trans people's doctors guide them through the process of figuring out their identity. If transitioning helps them, let them transition. If it doesn't, let their doctor figure out what will. Lay people attacking that isn't going to help anyone, and in fact is only going to result in more aggressive promotion of transitioning because people feel the need to defend against it. As time goes on, we'll develop a better understanding of where gender dysmorphia comes from and improve our ability to predict whether or not transitioning is appropriate, but neither you nor any other armchair psychologist are going to make that happen any faster by denying the disorder's validity.

In the mean time, what science does definitively show us is that trans people's suicide risk is significantly lower for each aspect of their life in which they're accepted as their target gender, so maybe just do that.

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It's really weird being accused of 'not reading' the studies I share, and then people share 'studies' that either aren't studies, or they're nowhere near as comprehensive as the studies I posted.

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I have a question for the "in their own league" people

When has separate but equal ever worked?

*waits for someone to say men and women sports divide despite huge gaps in pay, media exposure, and overall funding*

So many serious problems right now and this is the shit they are fired up about

pathetic

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IronBornCorps posted...

*waits for someone to say men and women sports divide despite huge gaps in pay, media exposure, and overall funding*

Are suggesting men and women play in one unified league?

hungrymike posted...

Are suggesting men and women play in one unified league?

I'll give you a hint to help you figure out why that wasn't a particularly clever response: The phrase "separate but equal" has two adjectives in it.

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divided by weight classes in certain sports, why not?

Are you telling me Venus and Serena Williams have a significant physical disadvantage in Tennis? Amanda Nunes vs. Frankie Edgar would probably be a good fight. Pro Wrestling is pro wrestling. I think there is plenty of Football/Soccer players who could do well on the men's teams.

Women athletes never get the opportunity to display they are comparable to the men. "Men" and "Women" are not two homologous physical forms that everyone fits into, fact, period.

IronBornCorps posted...

Pro Wrestling is pro wrestling.

Eh, as much as pro wrestling does involve no small degree of athleticism (though not enough to warrant gender segregation), the fact that it's pure showmanship means gender segregation is more a matter of appealing to the audience's expectations as anything to do with actual athletics. That runs smack into the "guys shouldn't beat up women" brand of sexism pretty much immediately (which is also driving the transphobic hate here), which cuts down on the number of people that will enjoy watching it.

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IronBornCorps posted...

divided by weight classes in certain sports, why not?

So u want to separate by weight class? When has separate but equal ever worked?
IronBornCorps posted...

I have a question for the "in their own league" people

When has separate but equal ever worked?

Why can't the audience's expectations be challenged or changed without outrage? That's all the counter argument against trans athletics is.

A widely held belief based on generations of bias science that there is only type A and type B, and that type A is superior to type B in all aspects.

IronBornCorps posted...

Are you telling me Venus and Serena Williams have a significant physical disadvantage in Tennis?

thats obviously not the best controlled example, but its an established event. Even the sisters themselves ahead of time limited their ability to make players outside the top 200.

The whole argument against transgendered individuals fighting in combat sports seems odd to me because if theres a willing competitor then why not let the fight? Eventually youll either see that they do have an advantage, in which case that will have to be addressed, or they wont have one.

IronBornCorps posted...

That's all the counter argument against trans athletics is.

Nah, it's "women's sports are a waste of time if you can identify who will win everything every time."
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Nah, it's "women's sports are a waste of time if you can identify who will win everything every time."

But theres not real proof that they will win everything every time That seems more like assumption
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Cacciato posted...

The whole argument against transgendered individuals fighting in combat sports seems odd to me because if theres a willing competitor then why not let the fight? Eventually youll either see that they do have an advantage, in which case that will have to be addressed, or they wont have one.

Pretty much. As the regulations currently stand, there doesn't seem to be an advantage, so there's no need to adjust them. If one emerges (one way or the other), the regulations can be adjusted as needed.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Nah, it's "women's sports are a waste of time if you can identify who will win everything every time."

but that isn't the case lmao

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IronBornCorps posted...

Why can't the audience's expectations be challenged or changed without outrage? That's all the counter argument against trans athletics is.

A widely held belief based on generations of bias science that there is only type A and type B, and that type A is superior to type B in all aspects.

Exactly. This is obviously refutable, and it's strange we can't have a respectable discussion about it. There are ALWAYS outliers to averages.

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I just want to point out before leaving this topic for good, that's it's not transgenderism or transgendered.

Gender Dysphoria (soon to be Gender Incongruence) is a medical diagnosis that is not required for a transgender person to have.

Transgender or trans, is an adjective that a person can use to describe their gender.

IronBornCorps posted...

Why can't the audience's expectations be challenged or changed without outrage?

*Shrug* No reason, really. I just think it's a slightly different scenario when it's performance and narratives on the line instead of athletics. Outrage is always going to be dumb (sportsball isn't serious enough to ever get genuinely outraged over), but in the case of sportsball, there are objective-ish claims about fairness and whatnot that can be empirically dismantled. For a performance, it's just a matter of "this isn't the show I want to see," which is a lot harder to change people's minds on because it's completely subjective and unfalsifiable.

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Unfortunately there's no way to say these things without get insta-banned without any proper reason or the slightest explaination
Yet personally attacking other people seems to go completely unpunished because they're being "nice"

Exactly. Ive been silenced twice now. One message was deleted and labelled hate speech under violation category offensive, and my other message was deleted shortly after being posted without any further explanation.

The messages were deleted anonymously so theres no possibility to reach out to the responsible moderator and ask for any sort of clarification as to why and how my messages were offensive or hateful.

Ive been a member since 2005, and as far as I remember, Ive never had any problems posting without getting warned or being suspended.

This topic is still, oddly enough, open for discussion yet its abundantly clear that youre only allowed to have a certain viewpoint and/or agree with this viewpoint.

*cries I'm being silenced in a four paragraph post without any substance or actual contribution to the subject*

Red04 posted...

This topic is still, oddly enough, open for discussion yet its abundantly clear that youre only allowed to have a certain viewpoint and/or agree with this viewpoint.

maybe try having a viewpoint that isnt just transphobic hate and bigotry

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IronBornCorps posted...

*cries I'm being silenced in a four paragraph post without any substance or actual contribution to the subject*

Werent you supposed to leave this topic for good?
Also, Ive contributed plenty to this topic, but I cant repost it without mods immediately deleting it for hate. But thats fine Im not sure if youd be be able to comprehend it anyway, honestly.

MMA is the kind of sport where you tell me a fighter crushed in the other fighters skull and I find it difficult to be outraged. That isn't necessarily the point but it is a combat sport, so...it happens.

argonautweakend posted...

MMA is the kind of sport where you tell me a fighter crushed in the other fighters skull and I find it difficult to be outraged. That isn't necessarily the point but it is a combat sport, so...it happens.

Pretty much. That's not to say weight classes and similar divisions shouldn't exist to reduce the risk of major injuries occurring, but you're never going to eliminate them entirely, and a handful of examples don't indicate a problem that needs to be fixed. People clutching their pearls and screaming "Fallon Fox fractured a woman's skull!" are just desperate for a reason to hate on her for being trans, given that the actual injury was an orbital fracture (which is about as much a "fractured skull" as a broken nose is) and that's a relatively common MMA injury (what with all the face punching going on). If long-term data suggests a higher injury rate for cis women fighting trans women, that's a problem that warrants some regulatory adjustments (and vice versa, actually), but single examples are not indicative of a broader problem.

Red04 posted...

Also, Ive contributed plenty to this topic, but I cant repost it without mods immediately deleting it for hate.

Perhaps you should try contributing something other than blatant transphobia?

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Red04 posted...

Also, Ive contributed plenty to this topic, but I cant repost it without mods immediately deleting it for hate.

your lack of self reflection is astounding

pathetic, but also astounding

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Red04 posted...

Exactly. Ive been silenced twice now. One message was deleted and labelled hate speech under violation category offensive, and my other message was deleted shortly after being posted without any further explanation.

The messages were deleted anonymously so theres no possibility to reach out to the responsible moderator and ask for any sort of clarification as to why and how my messages were offensive or hateful.

Ive been a member since 2005, and as far as I remember, Ive never had any problems posting without getting warned or being suspended.

This topic is still, oddly enough, open for discussion yet its abundantly clear that youre only allowed to have a certain viewpoint and/or agree with this viewpoint.

Maybe you voiced your POV in a derogatory way? I can't see it, so what do you think? Do you think it was a certain word? A specific phrase? Can you post a link to your views? You point to your belief in 'biology at birth', but the majority of science now agrees that transitioning from one gender to another can be very beneficial for individuals identifying as trans. Brain scans show inherent similarities to their desired gender. I've already posted a ton of links that people like to toss aside, but they constitute a great many studies. One person tried to refute it so far with opposing studies, but most of them were just articles, and the two studies had extremely small sample sizes.

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Red04 posted...

Also, Ive contributed plenty to this topic, but I cant repost it without mods immediately deleting it for hate.

If what you said was hateful in any way, then it would be deleted. So, if you statements could be consider transphobic or something, that would warrant deletion
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ReturnOfFa posted...

Maybe you voiced your POV in a derogatory way? I can't see it, so what do you think?

Good question because you never know how individual mods perceive and judge a text I suppose.

My posts were written with a critical perspective but not disrespectful and certainly not hateful.
I know there are rules and I know there are lines you shouldnt cross yet this topic is (still) open for discussion about something controversial that is meant to be debated. If nothing else, look at the poll results.

If only mods could reach out or send a quick message to clarify hey, this is not ok because this or that, Im fine with that.

Red04 posted...

but not disrespectful and certainly not hateful.

to you.

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Red04 posted...

I know there are rules and I know there are lines you shouldnt cross yet this topic is (still) open for discussion about something controversial that is meant to be debated.

That just means you have to be careful with what you say
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LinkPizza posted...

That just means you have to be careful with what you say

Yes and generally speaking, managing to balance that while also staying true to yourself and what you believe.

joemodda posted...

Men are simply better both in sports and at being women

https://tinyurl.com/4pbkjev2

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That's an unfair fight.

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