Board 8 > Final Fantasy Record Keeper Topic 53: lolbio... is actually good now?!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Here's why you're being dumb about this-- Minwu can't even have higher damage on a theoretical level with what you're giving him.

Minwu average damage per turn in awakening mode using Holyja is
19999x10 (199990)
+0.5x19999x5 (49997.5)
+0.25x19999x5 (24998.75)

274986.25 per turn

Rem average damage per turn in sync mode is
19999x12 (239988)
+0.35x19999x6 (41997.9)

281985.9 per turn

I'm comparing a fully dived Minwu vs a fully dived Rem, and Minwu clears faster with what I have in both.

You are not so your observations are meaningless to this discussion. You also don't have Minwu's Awakening at Rank 8 like I do. You probably also have Rem's Sync at level 2+. I only have it at level 1 because I don't want to devote a scroll of honing to it.

Like I can put Curaja on Rem's slot 1 and she'll do terrible damage too. That's not relevant to anything.

All I'm saying is with what I have, Minwu is better, so stop saying I'm picking him out of bias-- I have tried both. The math supports it and the observations support it-- Minwu clears around 5 turns quicker on average. They won't with you because you're not going to dump 7 honing scrolls into him and you're not going to give him Holy VIII. And that's fine! But I'm picking the strongest damage option for my team-- the reason Rem is higher tier in general tier lists is because of longer fights, not speedrunning labyrinth-- Minwu is actually pretty close to on par, possibly better than her for labyrinth. In this particular case, particularly when Minwu has more highly honed soul breaks, he clears faster. That's all there is to it.

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I will say calling someone dumb when he has cleared two levels of content more than you isn't very savvy. I haven't weighed in because I appreciate a good lopen argument but maybe call someone dumb when you are on his level. You have the tech!


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Creating a team to autorun labyrinths efficiently and banging your head on a high level boss are totally different things to put effort into.

I don't care how good at the game he is or how much time he puts into beating bosses-- he is being dumb because he's claiming my team is faster by using Rem instead of Minwu when I have done both and the math and observations both support that Minwu would be faster and he's trying to say I'm lying when he's using a weaker Minwu than me (and probably a stronger Rem than I have)

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I will say having just read this all you are being dumb because if you put in the work your rem would be better but you are arguing with imperfect tools. It's like yeah maybe your minwu does more, but that's a damming of your overall setup not the guy who has cleared all the content.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I will say having just read this all you are being dumb because if you put in the work your rem would be better but you are arguing with imperfect tools. It's like yeah maybe your minwu does more, but that's a damming of your overall setup not the guy who has cleared all the content.

Well the difference that he's not seeing is that Rem is still better for content where you don't kill it in two turns. And that's why she's tiered so much higher. This use case matters little for tier lists, but it's one Minwu has an inherent advantage in due to his damage being more frontloaded.

I mean I've put in all the work I can put into Rem aside from giving her honing scrolls which isn't worth it so yeah it's not really that.

I use them both for magicite content so it's not really an either/or situation there

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More importantly why haven't you done holy weak wodin my man. Like, you got the tech and it is shiny

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Doing Wodins takes time. Despite what my posting in here implies I'm busy with my new company and such.

That being said Holy Wodin is probably the easiest to do now that I have super slick Fusoya to go with my Rem and Minwu so I probably will give him a try soon.

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I feel ya. I am going to start doing wodins this week. I have so much tech just been busy with other projects. I have been told rem and minwu solo everything so this should be good.

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I doubt 1 extra hit is going to let Minwu get a no boss action win or two turn kill a boss like Rem can. Even if he gets a 4x cast the boss still has about 35% HP left, Rosa, Fusoya, Arc and Mog can't finish that off before the boss takes action and Wodin comes back unless all 3 of their dualcast lmrs activate, and Minwu's ATB bar is still replenishing before the boss takes action and Wodin comes out. Rem's ATB boosts lets her act before the boss does on turn 3 skipping animations and clearing faster. It's not about damage/dualcast because that's a moot point if both characters are capping/ near capping, and until Minwu's DAASB comes out he's not two turning a d350 even with good RNG.

Lopen posted...

I'm comparing a fully dived Minwu vs a fully dived Rem, and Minwu clears faster with what I have in both.

Technically they're not fully dived because you haven't beaten their realm's dragonking and don't have the weakness+ damage board (and camaraderie if you chose to bring Hilda or Deuce)

Lopen posted...

You probably also have Rem's Sync at level 2+.

Nope!



Sure it'd be nice to be ranked higher but I don't want her getting too fast. I like to squeeze out Wodin with Arc or Rosa before she finishes casting her sync so I can leave it on auto during Wodin's entry animation. No way am I wasting scrolls on sync, you need to use them for good awakenings you want two uses of, and entry damage is pointless now with bosses being so bulky you mostly use them to build chain during the 5 second wall on Bahamut and Nexus bosses nowadays.

Also I'm not saying you're lying but you're misinformed about Minwu being better because as Chris said you have imperfect tools, these aren't gacha upgrades anyone can fight Wodin and Bahamut ( Dark magic weak Wodin and 2/T-0 Bahamut are some of the easiest of their kin) and they're been here for over half a year now. A lot of the remaining community has already beaten a Wodin/Dragonking already and we already have the next tier of superbosses after them (and in Japan starting with Nexus Alexander there will be a higher difficulty version of the same boss, and previous Nexus bosses will get updated higher difficulties as well) The last Dreambreaker was 6 months ago and they've already been powercrept by dyads and syncs being more common so you really should have moved on to Wodin and Bahamut by now (especially since you're missing realm/elemental tickets and scrolls by procrastinating on them from campaigns.)

And isn't that the main point of doing labyrinths? To get those hero artifacts to help beat nexus superbosses?

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Listen dude you're just wrong here. I'm giving you the numbers. I'm giving you the team composition. I'm giving you the data I find when I do labyrinth. Rem having more weakness damage doesn't make all the difference in the world as she's generally not having trouble capping on my team. Minwu having much higher AASB entry damage is what matters. Minwu having more damage per turn matters, Minwu AASB CT being lower than Rem's Sync CT is what matters. The rest of my team likely contributing more damage when I'm not fielding Mog is what matters. What's more is you've provided your team's clear time and it's barely faster than mine despite my imperfect tools.

Rem's higher ATB speed simply isn't allowing her to gain more casts fast enough, so yes the advantage goes to the guy who is doing 45k more out of the gate with soul break entry and is doing +50k average on every turn. I don't need to fudge the numbers for this to be the case. I gave you what happens literally turn by turn-- because of Minwu's higher upfront damage means the enemy is usually literally dead before the third cast and Minwu gets 2 casts before Rem gets 3, and she needs 3 on my team-- and would need it even if she had weakness damage +500%.

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That's another issue why aren't you using Mog? Didn't you say you have his awakening 1? That basically covers the haste and damage boost and if you need to heal as back up his dance covers that. None of the enemies outside of the gravity attacks are all that threatening, you're wasting turns with the dyad, glints and chain when those character can just keep attacking under Mog. Even if you need a patsy for full auto just use Orran and Onion Knight since they outspeed Mog and Rem and can attack with holyja and aren't bothered with fatigue.

You don't need 3 sync casts with Rem, I kill bosses with 2 or even 1 sync cast. If you need 3 casts with her despite her capping you're doing something wrong.

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*takes notes for my own gameplay*

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Oh I also forgot Iris is faster than Mog and Rem so you can use her over Onion Knight since she has a dualcast white magic LMR.

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

1 sync cast

If you're getting her to kill stuff with 1 sync cast you are misreporting your times because you should be killing enemies at much faster than 1:15.

I'm also not sure where your damage is actually coming from. What is your team composition let's see it.

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Yeah my old times were off, I had passion salsa in slot 1 instead of holyja on Mog. I've been tweaking it to try and make it faster.

Team is

Mog
Arc
Rosa
Rem
Fusoya in that order.

Start with Mog awakening 1 then Rem sync, Arc uses Wodin or his glint+ depending if the boss is tanky or resists holy like Chaos, if that happens Rosa uses Wodin then I go auto during Wodin's animation. If I feel like going a little faster I turn off auto for a sec and use Mog's glint+ to shorten the cast time. Boss is pelted with holy magic, sometimes if Rem and couple characters dual cast the fight ends before Mog gets his third turn.

If I wanted to make a full auto team though I'd have Orran, Iris, Mog, Rem and Fusoya. Orran would use wall, Iris uses Wodin, Mog uses Awakening 1, Rem uses sync, fusoya HA, Orran would probably have Allegro con Moto and Mog and Iris would use holyja. Orran can also use Holyja but that would mean one of the 3 would have to use 5* holy. (it'd be nice to make use of that weakness damage boost dragonking board on Orran though.)

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Mog

is that ffxiii 2 mog or something else?

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Mog from FF6, the party member. He's arguably the most valuable support in the game right now with his awakenings.

Also I'm trying the Iris/Orran full auto party and Rem with a dualcast still killed Nidhogg before he could act. That's my girl!

So far only Marrilith, Alexander, Iron Giant and Atmos lasts more than 3 Rem turns (and that's because of Atmos's slowga) And that point Wodin finishes them off (that must be some hell of a damage reduction since Wodin did 98000 damage) If I'm on full auto and still not seeing Wodin's follow up most of the time I must be doing something right, heh.

Also I'm surprised Iris caps/near caps with holyja considering she's not a (legit) dps.

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IV: 1/3, Decil USB

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I got Pecil dyad!!! Finally my luck has turned around!



I should try for a better time on Bahamut and Armor Construct with this later!


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So I tried changing my team to be closer to your theory of just blast as quickly as possible screw chain. I think it helped a lot with clear time.

I tried the following two setups

Mog (RM meter)
Rem (RM meter)
Fusoya (RM haste)
Minwu (RM haste)
Yuna (+30% weakness damage)

And then the same thing with Rem and Minwu swapped (Minwu using Awakening with meter, Rem in slot 4 with Haste). The results of both team comps were near identical, and the more important thing for speed was in the other edits (getting Hope out for Mog and blast blast). Here are the results.

Rem Sync

Fusoya - Fabula Guardian
Minwu - Alexander (VI)
Mog - Wind Rhapsody
Yuna - Yearning Prayer
Fusoya - Engage Arcane Dyad
Rem - Saintly Huntcraft
Mog - Holyja
Minwu - Holy VIII
Yuna - For the Calm
Rem - Dagger Dia
Alexander - Holy Luster
Fusoya - Bless
Mog - Holyja
Minwu - Holy VIII
Rem - Dagger Dia (usually ends here, have seen Holyja -> Sending be the end though)
Yuna - The Sending (Yuna finishes every enemy here aside from the boss. Running Rem without chain her lack of magia/etc made a big difference in her dps against tankier targets)
Fusoya - Bless
Mog - Holyja
Alexander - Holy Luster
Rem - Dagger Dia
Minwu - Holy VIII
Yuna - The Sending

Minwu Awakening

Fusoya - Fabula Guardian
Rem - Alexander (VI)
Mog - Wind Rhapsody
Minwu - Seal of Mysidia
Yuna - Yearning Prayer
Fusoya - Engage Arcane Dyad
Mog - Holyja
Rem - Siphon Sphere
Yuna - For the Calm
Minwu - Holy VIII
Alexander - Holy Luster
Fusoya - Bless (usually ends here)
Mog - Holyja
Rem - Siphon Sphere
Yuna - The Sending (Yuna finishes most every enemy with this)
Minwu - Holy VIII (Minwu super overkills if not-- did not see turns past this aside from the boss)
Fusoya - Bless
Mog - Holyja
Rem - Siphon Sphere
Alexander - Holy Luster
Yuna - The Sending
Minwu - Holy VIII

So basically I would say Minwu is very slightly better for my team currently. If I had Wodin and his 99999 follow-up it would be more decisive.

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Personally I'd go with dualcast white magic Record Materia on Fusoya to give a 45% chance of dualcasting. More imperils means Rem does more damage on entry.

Did you try Orran & Iris as wall/magicite patsy's? Feels like a waste if Fusoya is wasting his first turn instant cast on wall when he could be landing an imperil.

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Instacast wall is nice because that slot isn't wasting time casting wall-- I need to have two slots use Wall + Alexander for the pure auto to work and it can't be Mog and it can't be the main DPS and I think Yuna rushing into her AASB is the most useful other option (but I'm not sure-- AASB entry on her is trash when fatigued). The whole reason I have Fusoya with Haste RM is so he can use his instacast on that and I think it's the right decision.

What I'm not sure of is if his Dyad is still worth using without start Meter. Another bless might be better for the damage.

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Dumb question, where do you get the core Historia Soul 4 (thing you need to break level 99 on the historia crystal)?

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Orran has an IC3 LMR so he'll always go first with instant wall, Iris has a higher speed stat than Mog to use magicite so Mog, Rem and Fusoya can start their carnage. If you get imperils early Mog and Iris will cap/near cap with holyja (could be Dragonking weakness damage though) Also no Mog quickcast glint+? With Mog AASB1 + Allegro + glint+ the second turn for Fusoya, Rem and Iris will be near instant cast, letting Rem quickly get a third turn before magicite does a follow up.

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Kaxon posted...

Dumb question, where do you get the core Historia Soul 4 (thing you need to break level 99 on the historia crystal)?

It's not out yet, not till Core Bahamut comes out.

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Oh thanks. In that case I have enough tails to max out all my crystals and I'll have enough for that one by the time core bahamut is out.

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There's going to be a mission soon for Dr Mog's Homework to level a HC with Rat Tails. I don't know what the rewards are, but if you still can, it's probably better to keep one HC not maxed right now.

Aw crap, too late. :( I sure hope the reward isn't mythril.

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Orran has an IC3 LMR so he'll always go first with instant wall, Iris has a higher speed stat than Mog to use magicite so Mog, Rem and Fusoya can start their carnage. If you get imperils early Mog and Iris will cap/near cap with holyja (could be Dragonking weakness damage though) Also no Mog quickcast glint+? With Mog AASB1 + Allegro + glint+ the second turn for Fusoya, Rem and Iris will be near instant cast, letting Rem quickly get a third turn before magicite does a follow up.

Listen homie I know you have your heart set on me bending the knee and using Rem as primary DPS but I still know you're wrong here as Minwu and Rem take their first three turns at the same time due to quicker CT on Minwu AASB and fights are usually over before cast 3 in cap break (and a lot more often with Minwu at that-- double the chance to triple+ cast matters)

Because I haste into my magicite cast the follow up comes out faster anyway so not really interested in beating it popping out. It's plenty fast enough at this point. Been beating that dude you've been talking about beating before he gets an action before he gets an action too so yeah more optimization is going to have minimal returns

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Why not use both minwu and rem for maximum dps

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I am but only one can start with a soul break and Minwu seems the right pick there with AASB level 8

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I just hit 500 mythril! What's everyone's pulling plans for fest? For me b1 and b3 and Bio banner are the ones I'm most interested in. Edge's dyad would be really nice since he's useful on so many teams.

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I'm at 340 mythril. I plan 150 mythril on the bio banners for sure, though I don't know which one quite yet; I need Quistis SeeD uniform.

I might skip the main fest banners, but I haven't really looked closely enough at the banners to be sure.

How do you get so much mythril

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I just haven't spent any since the last fest. 3 months of daily logins and doing all the content gives you somewhere around 550-600.

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I have 115 mythril right now. I'm considering pulls on 3, 5, and/or bio; not positive what I'll do exactly. I'm also probably gonna do the two AASB draws so I'll only be able to do like two or three pulls across those banners.

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Scrappymatt10 posted...

How do you get so much mythril

As Kaxon notes we get around 150-200 per month from various sources (login bonuses, daily/monthly missions, events, new content). As a new player you have over 1000 mythril to obtain from the realm/record dungeons etc.

One thing you should try to do is clear as many of the weekly event missions as you can since that mythril is time-limited (and the other resources you get will be very useful for you as well).

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III: 1/3, Aria LMR2

Also one of my mythril mysteriously disappeared... ugh, guess I must have misclicked something dumb. Hopefully it was inventory space and not something extra dumb like stamina or fatigue or something!

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Lopen posted...

Listen homie I know you have your heart set on me bending the knee and using Rem as primary DPS but I still know you're wrong here as Minwu and Rem take their first three turns at the same time due to quicker CT on Minwu AASB and fights are usually over before cast 3 in cap break (and a lot more often with Minwu at that-- double the chance to triple+ cast matters)

Not from what I've tried with Minwu in my Orran/Iris auto team today, I swapped him with Rem and he was still slower every fight, never beat Wodin, and rarely got a no boss action win. I think you're severely overrating the awakening cast time reduction especially with Mog's awakening quickcast Rem gets her sync going quickly anyway letting her go turbo ATB, and his dualcast odds as well because Minwu does crap out sometimes by only doing two casts letting the fight drag out to 4 turns letting Wodin clean up, while only bulky, shell users or Type-0 bosses last more than 3 turns with Rem.

Lopen posted...

Because I haste into my magicite cast the follow up comes out faster anyway so not really interested in beating it popping out. It's plenty fast enough at this point. Been beating that dude you've been talking about beating before he gets an action before he gets an action too so yeah more optimization is going to have minimal returns

Still seems like a waste to use haste RM on characters, especially on bulkier bosses when that won't have long term effect and Mog is pretty fast already even without haste. And if I gave Iris a haste RM she would outspeed Orran and end up slow casting wall, then I'd have to use Lightning or Orlandeau over Orran and I'd rather not use a character hindered by fatigue. Plus I'd rather have Fusoya imperil turn 1 so the rest of my party can take advantage of the Dragonking weakness damage boost.

Besides even if it's minimal why wouldn't you want to go as fast as possible? These are long tedious slogs so the faster they're over with the better IMO, even if it's a bit.

I'm not really excited over Fest Banners much anymore to be honest. I think I prefer more focused banners at this point since all we have left for superbosses is Nexus ones so I'd rather focus on a banner that is more set to upcoming Nexus bosses or Bahamuts I haven't beaten yet. Or I can just dream select as well since old awakenings and syncs are still Nexus viable. Edge dyad is tempting I'll admit though.

I think I'd rather pull on the next FF11 Banner, it looks really good and the only dupe I have is Lion's sync, and that realm has the hardest bahamut so any help is welcome!

I also got Arc USB dupe on LotR, bleh.

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Not from what I've tried with Minwu in my Orran/Iris auto team today

You don't have Holy VIII your data is invalid period I'm not sure why you don't read the dps stats I gave you

Then the level 8 Awakening lets him keep up with Rem until turn 3 so yeah

I'm just saying look at my turn progression look at the math, no reason to look at Rem with my loadout. Sorry you can't process because rank S

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And you don't have Wodin gear/Dragonking boards so your data is invalid as well, sorry you're 6 months behind because... I dunno I guess you're scared of them. You have characters with multiple cap breaks so why the hold up? And if you're not going to fight them why are you even bothering with labyrinths? Hero gear powercreeps Dreambreakers to the point most current players have sub30'd like half of them. Heck it's arguable Wodin is basically powercrept by hero gear.

Besides I don't need to waste scrolls/sapphires on Minwu, but eventually you're going to have beat Wodin or you'll basically have nothing to do because stronger bosses than him will keep coming. And I still don't see how an extra hit is going to make the difference, if both of the them kill in 3 turns Rem's going to get those 3 turns faster than Minwu, simple as that. And I've never seen Minwu ever kill a 350 in 1 cast like Rem has.

Also wouldn't it be a monkey paw if you dupe'd Rem's sync with a grab bag ticket during the fest?

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Besides I don't need to waste scrolls/sapphires on Minwu

The difference here is as far as I can tell Lopen doesn't care how you run labyrinth, you're the one trying to convince him to change his strats. Who cares how he runs it, it works for him and you guys have been arguing about this for days...

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Having no event on Thursday is weird, especially since fest hasn't started yet. I'm definitely impatient for it to get here!

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Wish they'd bump up the FFV event from next week. I want Dorgann's HA for Kalavinka Striker already!

Man I almost sub30'd FF4 Bahamut with a team of Pecil, Rosa, Edward, Fusoya and Edge. Pecil's dyad helps get through phase 2 but unfortunately he can't break King's rage even with max chain, holy damage boost from his sync command and 6 imperils from Fusoya. Bummer! Have to use smoldering flames to break king's rage I suppose. Wish I had something else for Fusoya to use too in phase 2 to get rid of some historia souls, sucks his USB isn't in the Record Laboratory.

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If you have Mog AASB1, Pecil should be able to break 20k on the +70% turn. If you get lucky with your w-cast, that's 3 layers of King's Rage.

I really should give FFIV Bahamut another try one of these days. I got to 86% before I had Mog AASB, trying to brute-force him with Cait AASB.

I have Mog awakening 1, but I was going with Edward since this team isn't bothered by full break and Mog doesn't boost mind outside of his awakening 1 and USB.

I guess that can work with Pecil's sync command 1 doing 3 hits and saving the historia crystal's second cast for phase 3. I'll try it tomorrow, I gotta go to bed.

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I'm not saying anything about you needing to use Minwu though?

Having a 6% more weakness damage wouldn't change that either. It's about number of turns over time and expected number of dualcasts over time

It's okay for one character with more resources devoted to it to be better than another higher ranked one that's why the game is good

No amount of foot stamping and tier waggling is going to change clear time reality for the stuff I have for each.

I'm sorry you're upset about this

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It really does not matter that much guys, just use whichever one you feel is better for the current situation

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II: 1/3, Scott GSB

ugh

Phys AASB draw:
3/11: Fang AASB (dupe), Leo AASB1, Kain AASB2

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Lopen posted...

Having a 6% more weakness damage wouldn't change that either. It's about number of turns over time and expected number of dualcasts over time

It's not just that, it's Wodin too. Having him over a 5* magicite is going to give you a significant stat boost, and his holy seal and 65 mind gauntlet will boost damage as well. When I use Rem she does 7000 per hit with her sync entry on d350 fodder, that's nearly as much as your r8 Minwu awakening entry is doing, while your Rem is only doing 4000 per hit on entry because you lack Wodin gear. On top of that there's going to be empower element level 18 magicite shards in season 2 labyrinths, the holy one comes out in January I think. With that stuff I presume r8 Minwu is capping/near capping at that point and the damage advantage isn't that significant anymore thus Rem's ATB speed advantage being more valuable.

Also I tried Mog against FF4 Bahamut and I don't think I can get a sub30 with him, it takes longer to get out of phase 1 since only Rubicante is benefiting from awakening 2 and I want to save Awakening 1 for phase 2. I tried Cait Sith and I did have better success but I'm still in the 33-36 clear range. So I went back to Edward and Rubicante over Fusoya since Edge does more damage than Pecil despite Rubicante getting bothered by phase 3 Full Break. Edward doesn't boost damage as much as Cait but the benefit of getting hit 4 times in phase 2 for more meter seems to be decisive. Fastest way I found is to use Pecil's dyad in phase 1 when Bahamut is still squishy, save two bars on Edge for phase 2, save meter on Rubicante until phase 2, use Pecil's sync near the end of phase 1, and save the meter for his dyad trigger 2 in phase 2, and use Rubicante's dyad trigger 2 in phase 3 to do 1 King's rage break and give the party instant cast, use Pecil's LBO and hope for dualcasts.

I got so close one time, just under two seconds-



Really wish I had Rubi's awakening 2 or sync, he caps in phase 2 with his awakening, and his sync has piercing hits.

Also great news in Japan, Cloud finally has a dress wardrobe record!



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