Current Events > Your opinion on fights you're supposed to lose in video games?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hate the idea? Think it's sometimes necessary for the plot?

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As long as I know I can't win. Fuck the Magic Emperor fight in Lunar SSS

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Yeah, as long as it's obvious I'm supposed to lose, I'm good with them. It's when it seems like I have a chance and waste items that they become a problem

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My favorite is when it seems like you're supposed to lose but no you weren't prepared. I cant think of an example off the top of my head but some jrpgs have this happen

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gmanthebest posted...

Yeah, as long as it's obvious I'm supposed to lose, I'm good with them. It's when it seems like I have a chance and waste items that they become a problem

This.

Bonus points if there's a way you can actually win and the game reflects that.

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In Resident Evil games anyway, it's the worst fucking mechanic ever.

You waste all your ammo trying to kill something that wasn't meant to die. Then when it finally wins you're left with nothing.

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gmanthebest posted...

Yeah, as long as it's obvious I'm supposed to lose, I'm good with them. It's when it seems like I have a chance and waste items that they become a problem

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I fucking hate it. Just do a cutscene if you're going to take away player agency anyway.

It's less obnoxious than a fight you need to win, and then "lose" in the following cutscene anyway.

i like them as much as i like QTEs and trail missions. in other words, not so much...

LeoRavus posted...

In Resident Evil games anyway, it's the worst fucking mechanic ever.

You waste all your ammo trying to kill something that wasn't meant to die. Then when it finally wins you're left with nothing.

Sooo much this. Nothing like burning through healing items, wondering why this enemy is so damned tough, dying finally and instead of a game over you get a cutscene and all the items/ammo you used are gone for nothing. That, is rage inducing.

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Don't have fights that you can get past by standing there and dying. Have a fight that you have to win, or at least survive, then fail to achieve whatever your objective is in a cutscene afterwards, so at least you don't unnecessarily waste resources on the fight.

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LeoRavus posted...

In Resident Evil games anyway, it's the worst fucking mechanic ever.

You waste all your ammo trying to kill something that wasn't meant to die. Then when it finally wins you're left with nothing.

sounds like you gotta git gud

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Dark_SilverX posted...

sounds like you gotta git gud

Or, you know, stop being deathly afraid of spoilers.

Like, if you're not supposed to win then at least split the difference. Those "deal 10% of their max health then cutscenes resume" style ones are just fine because you lose but have to actually do more than just afk till you die.

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I like having an option to win, like Gades 1 in Lufia 2

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The only time I can think of this game trope actually being cool was in Jedi Knight 2 when you fight Desann for the first time and get wrecked by him having full-strength force powers.

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They need to be like the first kratos fight in Tales of Symphonia. The difficulty is scaled way up, but it's not impossible to win.

The Yggdrasil fight immediately following is done fine as well because you only do 1 damage and it's fucking obvious when you take 2k per hit that you're not supposed to win, so you won't be wasting items.

It is funny though basically dying back to back in two "must lose" fights lmfao hahahah

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CinderLock posted...

My favorite is when it seems like you're supposed to lose but no you weren't prepared. I cant think of an example off the top of my head but some jrpgs have this happen

Golbez in FFIV 3D

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if Im going to lose because of the story, they should skip the fight and not give me the illusion that i could have a chance to 'win'

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Golden Sun's first "boss" fight with the villains was a neat scripted loss.

But I dislike boss fights where you kill the boss very easily then they whip around and 1-shot you for story purposes. Or you get their hp to a certain percent and they shout "ENOUGH" and hold you in place or some shit (looking at you, WoW).

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They should just be cutscenes. Ill never forget the one in Skies of Arcadia when they invade your island, I must have spent an hour fighting that silver haired bastard using all of my items.

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pegusus123456 posted...

This.

Bonus points if there's a way you can actually win and the game reflects that.

Suikoden 2 does this well.

When you fight Neclord it's immediately obvious you can't win, you can't do any damage and he hits hard.

But when you fight Rowd it looks like you're supposed to lose but you can definitely win, it's just very difficult. You even get a reward, though the story doesn't change.

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CinderLock posted...

My favorite is when it seems like you're supposed to lose but no you weren't prepared. I cant think of an example off the top of my head but some jrpgs have this happen

I was thinking this. There's been a few times where I'd go into a fight and the difficulty shot up ridiculously to the point where I'm thinking "Oh, I guess I'm supposed to lose this fight" only to get hit with a Game Over screen when I actually lose.

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They're kind of a waste of time, I agree with someone else, just make it a cutscene. I can tolerate it if it's obvious I'm supposed to lose, like I still have scrub powers and the enemy is like level 100 blowing up the world around me, but ones that tease you that you can win but you really can't are the worst.

It needs to be obvious that you can't win. Either use a special music, or make the boss just wipe everyone out faster than you can react.


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What's worse are the boss fights where you beat the actual fight but then immediately lose in the following cutscene

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Fine if it's obvious.

The Tales of Symphonia example listed above is probably my favorite take on that trope.

But also

Questionmarktarius posted...

It's less obnoxious than a fight you need to win, and then "lose" in the following cutscene anyway.

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It's one thing if you're supposed to lose the first fight and win the rematch -- like Mega Man X. It's another if the character is unbeatable.

Enemies who cannot be defeated (or cannot be hit) should not be a thing in video games. Full stop. If the story dictates that a character lose, make it a cutscene and not a boss fight.

pogo_rabid posted...

What's worse are the boss fights where you beat the actual fight but then immediately lose in the following cutscene

Yeah. At least go the FF9 route where after enough damage, you get crushed but at least still in battle.

The whole "win the battle but you lose anyways" is a horrible mechanic.
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gmanthebest posted...

Yeah, as long as it's obvious I'm supposed to lose, I'm good with them. It's when it seems like I have a chance and waste items that they become a problem

This to a T.

Although fights that you shouldn't but you do anyway feel amazing to play, especially if the cutscenes or w/e reflect that.

Looking at you Tenkaichi 3 Raditz, you shit.

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I like when you can actually win them, and it either changes the dialogue or cutscene a bit (you still lose, but it is a bit different), or when you get a special reward for beating them like a special/strong item or secret ending.

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They're fine as long as they do it via OHKO. Don't drag the fight on and have people waste time or items on something that can't be won.

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Lazy design, just like winning a fight/losing in cutscene. Only worthwhile one I can think of off the top of my head is Ocean Palace Lavos from CT, as with enough grind/prep you can win.

I'm fine with it they've made it sufficiently obvious that I'm supposed to lose, so i don't go and suffer for 30 minutes trying to win or using up all my good items.

The WORST though - and I really, REALLY hate this one - is when you clearly win the fight (enemy HP is zero, you dodged his attacks and wailed on him completely) - but you....lose in the cutscene. Such a cheap shot.

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The worst is playing one you're expecting you have to lose to, and you actually get a game over.

It's like, "oh, well...damn, okay then"

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I do not like them as the are a shitty gimmick that thankfully is not in many games. Do that shit in a cutscene, do not take away player agency.

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Irony posted...

As long as I know I can't win. Fuck the Magic Emperor fight in Lunar SSS

This.

I fought the soldiers at the end of Crisis Core for like an hour LMFAO.

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I am opposed
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annoying and unnecessary, but it's not a deal breaker


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gmanthebest posted...

Yeah, as long as it's obvious I'm supposed to lose, I'm good with them. It's when it seems like I have a chance and waste items that they become a problem

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It'd be fine if the "fight" was limited to very basic commands that don't deplete resources.

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