Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 376: Pigs in Space

(+) Yeah! (+)

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Those people already definitely know the GOP wants to defund schools and give that money to the cops lol, the accusation is feckless

Tony, I get that you're idealistic and all, but I'm sorry to have to break this to you...

The majority of people in America would much rather shut down all public schools than eliminate every police department. People in this country and fucking stupid and selfish, and a functioning school system is far less important to a random individual than a functioning police department.

You and I understand. We at least grasp the idea that a rising tide raises all boats, and having more well-educated students means a more intelligent and effective work force across all fields (particularly the ones like medicine or the law, which require a great deal of intellect). We grasp that police budgets are bloated and dedicated to the wrong things, and they're especially ineffective once your melanin levels reach a certain point. But most Americans are not us. Most Americans are fucking idiots. And unfortunately, they hold a lot more political power than we do.

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Yeah I had long given up on student loan forgiveness happening. To many people complain and thr Dems are to scared of backlash and dont care enough about the issue.

It seemed like as soon as there was a push to do it the popularity of doing so dropped.

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/mstratford/status/1420422062431215621?s=21

AUGHHHHHHHH

Holy shit Pelosi is so bad at messaging, she should never be allowed to address the public or the media

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Yeah. Forgiving student loans is dumb. That was the worst explanation of why ever

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masterplum posted...

Yeah. Forgiving student loans is dumb. That was the worst explanation of why ever

yeah why would we ever want a better-educated populace and workforce, that's just dumb as fuck LMOA

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Inviso posted...

The majority of people in America would much rather shut down all public schools than eliminate every police department.

I'm really tired of this bad faith interpretation of police reform that Democrats are using here and you keep buying into. This is why I specifically said it wasn't about the slogan but about electoral strategy. They are intentionally trying to create animosity between the activist left and the moderate base of the party. They say that this is to convince moderates and conservatives but the only people who are going to believe them are diehard dems already! No one else could possibly fall for this!

If we must, I'll illustrate from a policy perspective. Police abolitionists are not trying to Thanos snap police out of existence without warning. There are popular major police reform ideas that both defund activists and moderates can agree on. Democrats do not run on these policies or try to sell them to the base. Instead they insist on running denial campaigns that no one could possibly believe. Why?

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Inviso posted...

Tony, I get that you're idealistic and all, but I'm sorry to have to break this to you...

The majority of people in America would much rather shut down all public schools than eliminate every police department. People in this country and f***ing stupid and selfish, and a functioning school system is far less important to a random individual than a functioning police department.

What are you breaking to me exactly? Where did I say something contrary to any of this/what are you responding to?

The topic is Democrats running a campaign to accuse Republicans of actually wanting to defund the police.

Who does this convince? Are there really people out there who care enough about police for it to influence their vote but ALSO are somehow totally unaware of Republican support for police funding? It just doesnt make sense.

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/mstratford/status/1420422062431215621?s=21

AUGHHHHHHHH

As someone who was lucky enough to pay off his student loans in six months, and someone who would see their taxes increase if student debt was cancelled, I can still say that Im 100% in favor of cancelling student debt. I know Im supposed to be against it because its not fair to me, but oh well.

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We're paying taxes to go to wars I disagree with. I don't think we should be funding Israel. But somehow I manage to go on with it anyway, because I'm not a selfish piece of human waste who cares more about money than policy.

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Dancedreamer posted...

We're paying taxes to go to wars I disagree with. I don't think we should be funding Israel. But somehow I manage to go on with it anyway, because I'm not a selfish piece of human waste who cares more about money than policy.

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Christ alive, Nancy Pelosi is such a piece of shit. Not only is she fucking lying about Biden not having that power, but then she continues to try justifying why we shouldn't cancel it.

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Cancelling student debt is just a middle class tax break. I would rather funnel the money into helping the actual poor

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Funny how she leaves out:

"Suppose at this point your child decided not to go to college because they don't want to be knee deep in debt. Now that debt can be canceled, and they don't have to worry about it. They can get an education, which can in turn lead to them getting a better job."

I just wish Biden would say that. Like just say that to her. He'd get a LOT of points from me if he did (but sadly I suspect he won't)

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masterplum posted...

Cancelling student debt is just a middle class tax break. I would rather funnel the money into helping the actual poor

https://i.imgur.com/ZqHKMT3.gif

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The idea that you can't do multiple things is how you convince people to do nothing instead.

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Not_an_Owl posted...

https://i.imgur.com/ZqHKMT3.gif

Because you spend political capital every time you do anything and this isn't a dictatorship

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Funny how the middle class and poor both get fucked a lot

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Dancedreamer posted...

Funny how she leaves out:

"Suppose at this point your child decided not to go to college because they don't want to be knee deep in debt. Now that debt can be canceled, and they don't have to worry about it. They can get an education, which can in turn lead to them getting a better job."

I just wish Biden would say that. Like just say that to her. He'd get a LOT of points from me if he did (but sadly I suspect he won't)

Biden has been talking about how he doesn't want to do anything with student debt only after he got elected. Nothing is happening with student debt until next election where Dems can pretend they give a fuck for votes again.

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And our other choice is

*dumpster on fire*

Great

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The idea that "political capital" is a finite resource that gets spent makes zero sense. You gain goodwill with voters by doing things for them. You gain goodwill with politicians you need to support you by offering them something in return. It's only because we have so many politicians where the "something in return" happens to be "doing nothing at all."

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masterplum posted...

Because you spend political capital every time you do anything and this isn't a dictatorship

Like a family of 4 spending $300 on groceries and then going on vacation, Dems love to load up on political capital by promising things, winning elections based on those promises, and then never even trying to follow through.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

The idea that "political capital" is a finite resource that gets spent makes zero sense. You gain goodwill with voters by doing things for them. You gain goodwill with politicians you need to support you by offering them something in return. It's only because we have so many politicians where the "something in return" happens to be "doing nothing at all."

It's easy to not do anything when you can just say "Look at all the evil shit the other side is going to do."

I think the next election is going to feature a lot of demoralized people not bothering to vote again, because they can't frenzy people into voting again.

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Mind you everyone should still vote because this shit is still much better than cartoon villainy. Even if sad

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/mstratford/status/1420422062431215621?s=21

AUGHHHHHHHH

Lmfao literally spouting right wing talking points

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Mind you everyone should still vote because this shit is still much better than cartoon villainy. Even if sad

Is it sad Im guaranteed to vote for this nonsense every year for the rest of my life because the alternative is impossibly and significantly worse in every single way?

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Is it sad Im guaranteed to vote for this nonsense every year for the rest of my life because the alternative is impossibly and significantly worse in every single way?

I try to find other joys in life. I suggest one piece

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It's a lot of why I've stepped back from politics a lot since Biden was elected.

Yeah, it's better. It's not making things so much worse. But there's still assholes in charge who barely give a fuck.

And there's nothing I can do about it but keep getting angry that the non-evil party is just grossly apathetic.

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https://twitter.com/mannyfidel/status/1362136883225051138

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Mind you everyone should still vote because this shit is still much better than cartoon villainy. Even if sad

Yeah, it's important to stop the dumpster fire party from destroying everything. I've given up on the idea though that if Dems keep winning elections, eventually the right will move to the left. No. At this point I realize they'll only keep moving further right. I suspect in 8 years, we'll have a Republican presidential candidate who's views are basically the american taliban.

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Don't forget about primaries tho!

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DeepsPraw posted...

https://twitter.com/mannyfidel/status/1362136883225051138

Yeah, I get it. For me it's about mental health, and getting worked up about real issues that there can be no tangible change in while this party just shrugs their shoulders is not good for me. It's not good for a lot of people either.

Like Pelosi just came out and lied to our fucking faces that Biden can't cancel student debt and then started giving us the right wing answer for why we can't possibly excuse any money now. What the hell are you supposed to do with that?

Like I was very vocal about police in here for a while. When's the last time they've been talking about making changes with police now that Biden is in office? They don't care. I can keep talking about it until I'm blue in the face and it won't change anything.

I can start ramping up again for 2022, but it's not a fight to make things better, it's a fight to keep them in the same disastrous conditions.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Mind you everyone should still vote because this shit is still much better than cartoon villainy. Even if sad

Dancedreamer posted...

Yeah, it's important to stop the dumpster fire party from destroying everything.

Reductively speaking, voting for Joe has still somehow brought us to the right of Obama, even after the Dems specifically promised us things Bernie proposed.

At a certain point if we keep eating shit, theyre going to keep serving us shit. This Pelosi saying literal Libertarian talking points shit has fully black-pilled me.

I think I might be done.

Dancedreamer posted...

I've given up on the idea though that if Dems keep winning elections, eventually the right will move to the left. No. At this point I realize they'll only keep moving further right. I suspect in 8 years, we'll have a Republican presidential candidate who's views are basically the american taliban.

Like this is totally true, and Blue-no-matter-who isnt stopping this. We fucking WON and theyre still repeating right wing shit to tell us JK!

Until Dems learn how to do things, were totally fucked.


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

At a certain point if we keep eating shit, theyre going to keep serving us shit. This Pelosi saying literal Libertarian talking points shit has fully black-pilled me.

Yeah, cause 2016 really taught the Dems a lesson! They sure learned.

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Video games and one piece for me. What a life

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Dancedreamer posted...

Yeah, cause 2016 really taught the Dems a lesson! They sure learned.

On one hand 2016 gave us the resistance, as opposed to Dems now, blissfully unaware (or apathetic) that were sliding off the cliff?

Maybe next time someone with a vision and the will to follow-through will run, who knows?

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I mean, if we're going down the nihilism route, let's be super real. Civilization ends in the next 50 years anyway due to climate change, and every country on the planet refuses to acknowledge that, so does any of this really matter? I mean, it matters for the kids who will grow up until a global warming hellscape, but at least shareholders will be happy!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Reductively speaking

Just now?!
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Maybe next time someone with a vision and the will to follow-through will run, who knows?

I mean does it matter for the primaries, when our centrists will tell us how much we need to run a centrist because only they have the ability to beat the big bad Republicans and we can't take a risk because people don't actually like Progressive policies.

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Yeah, the Dems lost seats in the House in 2020, barely managed to get a 50/50 Senate split due to a pair of runoffs in Georgia, and won the presidency by fewer votes than Trump did in 2016, despite winning a massive electoral vote margin. But sure, the Dems got a massive mandate to pull the country hard to the left. Okay.

You know why the GOP win? Because they suffer no consequences for their actions. Every election, even if the Dems temporarily get a majority, it's only two years before people complain about the Dems not doing enough and either the House or the Senate or the Presidency swing back. And the GOP know this. They literally don't need to run on anything other than "Dems bad", and they'll win again, sooner rather than later. That's why the right doesn't need to change right now. They can keep moving further and further right, and further normalizing radical right-wing ideas, and it won't matter because they'll just win again in 204 years regardless. Given that our political system is fucking WILDLY unbalanced in favor of the GOP (and therefore the country's conservative majority), Dems need to hold power for a more sustained period of time to accomplish any sort of meaningful change anymore. That's just how things are. You don't like it, change the hearts and minds of the moderate majority of voters in the Democratic Party, who you seem more than content to bitch about by trashing their proxies in Congress and the White House, rather than retooling your message to appeal to them.

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Blaziken posted...

You don't like it, change the hearts and minds of the moderate majority of voters in the Democratic Party, who you seem more than content to bitch about by trashing their proxies in Congress and the White House, rather than retooling your message to appeal to them.

what evidence do you have that "retooling the message" is effective in making moderates change their minds?

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kevwaffles posted...

Just now?!

Shhhh.

Blaziken posted...

Yeah, the Dems lost seats in the House in 2020, barely managed to get a 50/50 Senate split due to a pair of runoffs in Georgia, and won the presidency by fewer votes than Trump did in 2016, despite winning a massive electoral vote margin. But sure, the Dems got a massive mandate to pull the country hard to the left. Okay.

I didnt ask for hard left, I asked for not right and/or doing the things they specifically ran on.

Blaziken posted...

You know why the GOP win? Because they suffer no consequences for their actions.

Objectively incorrect, they win because they dont just talk the talk, when they get power they literally DO the awful shit they promised. The only thing that ever stops them is laws and procedure, they NEVER consider the political capital, they just DO what they said they would.

Blaziken posted...

That's just how things are. You don't like it, change the hearts and minds of the moderate majority of voters in the Democratic Party, who you seem more than content to b**** about by trashing their proxies in Congress and the White House, rather than retooling your message to appeal to them.

lol you dont get it both ways.

Inviso posted...

You and I understand. We at least grasp the idea that a rising tide raises all boats, and having more well-educated students means a more intelligent and effective work force across all fields (particularly the ones like medicine or the law, which require a great deal of intellect). We grasp that police budgets are bloated and dedicated to the wrong things, and they're especially ineffective once your melanin levels reach a certain point. But most Americans are not us. Most Americans are f***ing idiots. And unfortunately, they hold a lot more political power than we do.

It cant be both MY fault for not convincing people WHILE you and I agree but its the fucking idiots who are to blame.

The correct answer is that progressive policy is popular, Democrats run on progressive policies that draw votes, and then they dont DO the shit.

Sorry, but Im not playing this game again. Joe (and Pelosi, et al) have a play clock until the refs kick them off the field, its time for them to score the points, not me.


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Blaziken posted...

You don't like it, change the hearts and minds of the moderate majority of voters in the Democratic Party, who you seem more than content to bitch about by trashing their proxies in Congress and the White House, rather than retooling your message to appeal to them.

Ahh yes, blaming progressives. The only play in the moderate dems playbook. "You just haven't won us over yet!" Well, when do they start winning us over? They keep making promises, then get surprised when a lot of us decide "Hey, if they aren't going to keep their promises, maybe we won't show up!" and blame us for losing, when it's THEIR fault they're losing. They aren't winning the hearts and minds of people. They're just using money from special interests like they always do, and enjoying being Republican-Lite by doing absolutely fuck-all. We have every right to trash these people when they make promises, and then don't even BEGIN to keep them. If someone doesn't think every American should have health insurance, and they think it's okay for people to be in enormous debt just to get a college education -- which is practically a necessity these days -- then I'm not sure those people have hearts to change to begin with.

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60% of the country approves of legalizing marijuana, politicians won't do it. Is this the voters fault? Do we need to change more hearts and minds? Medical marijuana has a 90% approval rate, but is still federally illegal. Still too low?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Video games and one piece for me. What a life

Woo!

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Inviso is not a student of history. Equal rights was less popular at its passing than many progressive policies now.

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Progressive policies are super popular. They just don't get passed because our government is a joke.

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The joke being the lobbyists pay them to make sure they don't pass.

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Reminder that Pelosi is saying right wing rhetoric because she is a right wing politician from a right wing political party.

If the Democrats wanted to shift the Republicans to the left they would try moving to the left themselves. It is more likely that the Republicans move towards them to bridge the gap a bit than magically end up in the same space the Democrats already occupy.

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Lightning Strikes posted...

There was no actual single reason for people to support Brexit. At the end of the day the reason a popular Brexit deal was impossible was the fact that everybody who wanted Brexit had a different idea of what it meant. You cant look at it and say well, immigration because less than a third of Brexit voters listed immigration as a top issue. This is the only way it was able to succeed - Brexit was never defined, do it could get a large coalition of people who wanted different things. It was a range from protectionists to globalists to liberals to communists voting for it. The end result is a deal which almost everyone hates as nobodys issues were fully addressed leave or remain. And of course it is much longer term damage than nearly anything a President can do.

Now contrast that with Trump, who was very clear about what he wanted to do. Voting coalition-wise it was the same group that always voted Republican by-and-large, and his policy platform was just the extension of what Republicans have been drifting towards for decades, which is fascism. It is telling that everyone in the UK hates Trump, even hardcore Brexiteers view him unfavourably and for a time his approval ratings there were worse than Putins, so Id say his sentiment was very unpopular.

I'd like to push back on this a bit. On its face, I see where you're coming from with this. However, 2016 postmortems contradict it. Trump was indeed extremely upfront about how awful he was and what brand of awfulness he would bring, you and I agree on that. However, impossibly, or depressingly predictably, it was shown that a fair number of "swing voters" thought Trump was not only a moderate Republican but the more moderate candidate in the race! There very much was the same kind of wishcasting one's own desires into the vessel of Trump's 2016 candidacy that you describe for Brexit (which again was pretty straightforward in what it was and understanding its obvious consequences wasn't exactly a difficult lift.)

In this way they aren't entirely dissimilar. Whether it's Brexit supporters just blatantly lying about NIH funding or Trump making empty statements about healthcare or social security leading some to think "Oh, he's not like other Republicans!" I'll certainly grant you that Brexit was more abstract than a presidential election and that certainly made it easier to do that but you're wrong if you don't think a similar phenomenon was occurring in 2016 with Trump. All the after-action, "Oh I thought the campaign stuff was just theater and he'd get serious after he won," or "I was tricked!" anecdotes speak to that as well. There's some Hanlon's Razor stuff going on in both and I do think there's more to the malice argument with Trump's election than with Brexit for sure though.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The point isnt about the phrase, its that literally who is this for?

If youre a diehard cop supporter, youre not going to all of a sudden think the defund the police goals are actually from the Republicans.

If youre NOT a fan of the cops, this is the Dems going Look its the GOP who want to defund them, obviously we want to fund them even more.

What type of person is this for?

Short Answer: (Mostly white) suburbanites.

Longer Answer: The realignment affected by Trump in 2016-present supercharged rural, low-education voters for the GOP but alienated the suburbs which had been GOP-friendly (and indeed a key component for their 2010 gerrymandering and why it started showing serious cracks in 2018) as they fled Trump for the Dems in droves because of him. These kinds of voters are very pro-police because they generally live in privilege and see the police as their friends and heroes. Defund was shown to be a salient line of attack for the GOP with these voters (and others, including some minority communities as crazy as that may sound) so this kind of tactic is meant more to reassure these suburbia voters that they aren't Defund but are fellow police supporters.

Said suburban voters tend to have a higher turnout rate and since many of them only came over fleeing from Trump's GOP in the past 4-5 years they're afraid that if GOP propaganda can sink in with them (and they almost assuredly still have lingering connections to that sphere having come from there) they might just run back to the GOP again.

Taking all this together, it wouldn't surprise me if this is cynically the electorally "correct" move regardless of how dumb and wrong on policy I believe it to be. Like you wonder who could be dumb enough to fall for it but 1. I think the purpose is more to show that Dems are not for defunding and are in fact for increasing funding for police than it is to seriously convince anyone Republicans are the real defunders and 2. Voters really are dumb, refer to my above on how so many voters thought Trump was the moderate in 2016, etc. so like... it might work on more people than you'd think.

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Also, I know it may seem ridiculous to try to create cracks in the alliance between the police and the GOP, but it wasn't too long ago when you could have said the same about the GOP and the military being one of their sacred cows, and we're starting to see the beginning of a conflict there, at least with the military leadership.

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