Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 375: Joe Bidin' his time

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I mean Cubans support the embargos for a reason. Many of them are or are descended from refugees. It's not like it's just lol they hate cuba

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masterplum posted...

I mean Cubans support the embargos for a reason. Many of them are or are descended from refugees. It's not like it's just lol they hate cuba

it sounds like that's exactly what that is...

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masterplum posted...

I mean Cubans support the embargos for a reason. Many of them are or are descended from refugees. It's not like it's just lol they hate cuba

I hope you mean Cuban-Americans and aren't trying to say that most people living in Cuba support the US embargo. Because that should clue you in on the reason

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Obviously

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I mean, citizens in country doing bad thing hurt by embargo. News at 11. People living north Korea are starving, you guys want to remove sanctions from them?

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What did Cuba do that makes killing their citizens ok compared to North Korea, which actively states they want to kill other countries?

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I mean they weren't refugees for no reason

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they were also mostly refugees, or descended from refugees, 60 years ago

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Weird, there's no embargo on Saudi Arabia. You know, the country most of the 9/11 hijackers were from. Or the country that literally murdered an American Journalist. And has a LOT of human rights abuses.

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Dancedreamer posted...

Weird, there's no embargo on Saudi Arabia. You know, the country most of the 9/11 hijackers were from. Or the country that literally murdered an American Journalist. And has a LOT of human rights abuses.

A bit harder considering how dependant we are on OPEC oil. We should morally embargo china and Russia too but have similar problems

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NFUN posted...

they were also mostly refugees, or descended from refugees, 60 years ago

And Cuba is still a dictatorship like they were 60 years ago

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masterplum posted...

A bit harder considering how dependant we are on OPEC oil. We should morally embargo china and Russia too but have similar problems

So human rights abuses are okay as long as either:
A. They have something we need/want
or
B. We're the ones doing it.

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Dancedreamer posted...

So human rights abuses are okay as long as either:
A. They have something we need/want

That is exactly how power dynamics work yes. Otherwise it would be like when a teenager tries to embargo their parents which almost every teenager tries to do at some point

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masterplum posted...

And Cuba is still a dictatorship like they were 60 years ago

I mean, it's a bit hard to believe that the reason Cuba is embargoed is because it's a dictatorship considering:

a. The dictatorships we don't embargo.
b. The dictatorships that we installed, sometimes in place of democratic rule

I think it's a bit hard to argue that the embargo on Cuba is anything other than a Cold War/Red Scare relic. Especially given the Obama administration was in the process of thawing the relationship between the two countries over the course of both his terms and it was another one of Trump's capricious/spiteful actions that reverted it back.

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tbh the embargo on Cuba is just a long-standing "fuck you" towards a country with a history of absolutely embarrassing the US.

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masterplum posted...

We should morally embargo china and Russia too but have similar problems

the fuck

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masterplum posted...

I mean they weren't refugees for no reason

Its because they werent allowed to have 15 plantations, aww shucks guess it makes sense why they support embargos which kill their civilians.

Anyway, since were probably going to be talking about this a lot in the coming month(s), we should remember that the US government literally did the exact same trollfarm Russia did to us but for Cuba https://apnews.com/article/904a9a6a1bcd46cebfc14bea2ee30fdf

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Its because they werent allowed to have 15 plantations

I don't think you cross 100 miles of ocean in a makeshift raft for that.
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GuessMyUserName posted...

the fuck

Is it the country committing genoicide or the country that invaded another country for a warm water port that you think we shouldn't embargo

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kevwaffles posted...

I don't think you cross 100 miles of ocean in a makeshift raft for that.

Nah bro, don't you understand that owning a plantation should result in death and castro was doing the right thing? /s

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masterplum posted...

Is it the country committing genoicide or the country that invaded another country for a warm water port that you think we shouldn't embargo

Do you think embargos will stop them from doing these things, or is it just punishment for the sake of it?

Also what can Cuba do to be worthy of lifting the embargo and what do you think of how the UN repeatedly condemns the embargo and the US (and, weirdly, Isreal) just goes "nope lol"

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kevwaffles posted...

I don't think you cross 100 miles of ocean in a makeshift raft for that.

Not all of them, I was being flip, but its not a secret that a large portion of the Cuban exiles are formerly wealthy landowners.

Its literally a meme how many young Cubans complain about my grandparents had *insert ridiculous wealth* that was taken.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Not all of them, I was being flip, but its not a secret that a large portion of the Cuban exiles are formerly wealthy landowners.

Its literally a meme how many young Cubans complain about my grandparents had *insert ridiculous wealth* that was taken.

Unless they've been doing some prolific breeding, I don't think descendants of plantation owners have enough numbers to write off the hardships of people you would take much more seriously in any other situation.
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kevwaffles posted...

Unless they've been doing some prolific breeding, I don't think descendants of plantation owners have enough numbers to write off the hardships of people you would take much more seriously in any other situation.

There were 200,000 of them, thats not nothing.


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Some good old fashioned political hardball. Texas Democrats might have learned something from when Republicans did the same thing in Oregon not too long ago

https://twitter.com/JessicaHuseman/status/1414623570395807744?s=19

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

There were 200,000 of them, thats not nothing.

Wait, are you counting everyone in the initial wave of Cuban emigration as a plantation owner? Because that's the only way I can see you coming up with any measurable number for that period.
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kevwaffles posted...

Wait, are you counting everyone in the initial wave of Cuban emigration as a plantation owner? Because that's the only way I can see you coming up with any measurable number for that period.

Im counting them as wealthy, and thats who constituted the initial wave.

If you want to argue plantation owner is incorrect/broad, yes sure, fine, it wasnt meant to be literal.

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masterplum posted...

That is exactly how power dynamics work yes. Otherwise it would be like when a teenager tries to embargo their parents which almost every teenager tries to do at some point

My point is that if you only embargo countries that don't have something you need, you aren't really doing it for any altruistic reasons. You're doing it for political reasons, and it's time we stop pretending otherwise. Nobody cares about cuban refugees. They care about political power over Cuba. If Cuba suddenly had a TON of oil, everyone would gladly look the other way. Just like people look the other way toward our own human rights violations, including our own politicians.

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Dancedreamer posted...

My point is that if you only embargo countries that don't have something you need, you aren't really doing it for any altruistic reasons. You're doing it for political reasons, and it's time we stop pretending otherwise. Nobody cares about cuban refugees. They care about political power over Cuba. If Cuba suddenly had a TON of oil, everyone would gladly look the other way. Just like people look the other way toward our own human rights violations, including our own politicians.

.... Duh?

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Finally we have arrived at "US hegemony is inherently good"

Great job

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Some good old fashioned political hardball. Texas Democrats might have learned something from when Republicans did the same thing in Oregon not too long ago

https://twitter.com/JessicaHuseman/status/1414623570395807744?s=19

About time.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Im counting them as wealthy, and thats who constituted the initial wave.

If you want to argue plantation owner is incorrect/broad, yes sure, fine, it wasnt meant to be literal.

So were the rest of them just non-land owning venture capitalists then? Not sure where all this wealth would be coming from.
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kevwaffles posted...

So were the rest of them just non-land owning venture capitalists then? Not sure where all this wealth would be coming from.

lol what exactly are you arguing here? They were literally called golden exiles because of their wealth.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

lol what exactly are you arguing here? They were literally called golden exiles because of their wealth, I genuinely dont know what youre trying to accomplish.

Honestly? I was seeing if you would ever back down any from spewing rhetoric to demonize an entire group of people with a history of being oppressed that don't agree with your politics.

Turns out the answer is no.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Oh yeah I worded that sentence weird.

I meant the subject of Cuba in general. To put it another way, I think ending the embargo would solve some problems other people want to blame on something else.

You should get over your weird obsession of getting me to admit to some minutiae without starting the discussion by acknowledging were looking at a situation from two completely separate angles.

Heres my point of view, others are welcome to chime in:

Point 1: The Cuban Revolution caused hundreds of thousands of anti-Castro, wealthy Cubans to flee Cuba. This is a historical fact. When I demonized an entire group of people whove been oppressed, Im referring exactly to these people, and their descendants who are still anti-Cuba

Point 2: The embargo has had a massive and verifiable downward impact on the health and safety of the Cuban people. This has caused many people to emigrate post the first wave. I do not hold any illwill towards their emigration, but if they get to the US and turn around and say embargo good, then wow, I disagree with them. What a shock.

Point 3: In spite of the embargo and the manynow public knowledgecovert actions such as Operation Peter Pan, Operation Mongoose, etc, Cuba has still managed to create world-leading medical and educational advances.

Final thesis: I think the embargo is bad and all people in Cuba will live better lives without it. Those support of it are bad people.

Now please respond.

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kevwaffles posted...

Honestly? I was seeing if you would ever back down any from spewing rhetoric to demonize an entire group of people with a history of being oppressed that don't agree with your politics.

Turns out the answer is no.

You're right, that's exactly what Tony is doing here and he's definitely the one who looks ridiculous right now.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Those support it are bad people.

My response is that at some point you should learn that someone having an opinion or two you don't agree with doesn't automatically make them a bad person, even if they're actually wrong.

Or, to put it another way, you didn't have to attack Cuban Americans for your point to be right.
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kevwaffles posted...

My response is that at some point you should learn that someone having an opinion or two you don't agree with doesn't automatically make them a bad person, even if they're actually wrong.

Or, to put it another way, you didn't have to attack Cuban Americans for your point to be right.

p sure he's pointing out the "i got mine" attitude we all hate, not them having views he disagrees with

notice how he's talking about expats who suffered and hated the embargo while living there, not your average neocon

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NFUN posted...

p sure he's pointing out the "i got mine" attitude we all hate, not them having views he disagrees with

notice how he's talking about expats who suffered and hated the embargo while living there, not your average neocon

There's a word for taking something like a meme and applying it to everyone in a group. It's called a stereotype.

Do you honestly think every ex-pat who opposes thawing relations does so because they hate their ex-countrymen? They fear what will happen long-term if we no longer consider them refugees from a hostile regime. Personally I think that fear is misplaced, but it's not like this country hasn't been party to worse.
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kevwaffles posted...

There's a word for taking something like a meme and applying it to everyone in a group. It's called a stereotype.

Do you honestly think every ex-pat who opposes thawing relations does so because they hate their ex-countrymen? They fear what will happen long-term if we no longer consider them refugees from a hostile regime. Personally I think that fear is misplaced, but it's not like this country hasn't been party to worse.

Yes I am stereotyping everyone who thinks an embargo that causes death and misery is good as a bad person.

As for your second paragraph, no, I do not think they hate their countrymen, and I never said they did. Hate has nothing to do with it! They care more about punishing the Communist government than the well-being of their countrymenits not like your state intentions are great either?

Also the underlined part is so weird to me, is the US the country youre referring to? Because my entire point is that the US is party to a lot of Cubas woes?


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Yes I am stereotyping everyone who thinks an embargo that causes death and misery is good as a bad person.

No, you're dismissing actual fear by labelling them as all rich assholes because you don't actually have an ounce of compassion for anyone "out of line".
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kevwaffles posted...

No, you're dismissing actual fear by labelling them as all rich assholes because you don't actually have an ounce of compassion for anyone "out of line".

Literally everyone else knows exactly what Im saying, why are you struggling here?

Wheres your compassion for the victims of the embargo my guy?? How do the Cuban exiles actually BENEFIT from this thing causing poverty and death in Cuba? Come ON

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Tony's right.

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Read the part of my post you didn't quote, ass
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I literally said from the start I didn't think you'd get much pushback on ending the embargo. I was wrong, but clearly I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT PART.
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kevwaffles posted...

Read the part of my post you didn't quote, ass

kevwaffles posted...

They fear what will happen long-term if we no longer consider them refugees from a hostile regime.

This? I mean I quoted it I just didnt respond to it because why does their fear of Cuba being treated peacefully overrule the lives of civilians IN Cuba?

Any Cuban exile can become an American resident:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Adjustment_Act
What exactly is the fear? Theyll be stripped of residency and sent back, where the now not-embargoed Cuba will punish them? Even though multiple times since the Revolution, Cuba has legally allowed its citizens to emigrate?

I really need to know.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Any Cuban exile can become an American resident:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Adjustment_Act
What exactly is the fear? Theyll be stripped of residency and sent back, where the now not-embargoed Cuba will punish them? Even though multiple times since the Revolution, Cuba has legally allowed its citizens to emigrate?

I really need to know.

Exactly. That is the fear. Refugee status ending and facing persecution. I've stated I think they're wrong. You clearly think they're wrong. But that doesn't mean they don't fear it and it doesn't make them bad people.

Also seeing you of all people going with "a country did a good thing a few times" as a reason to dismiss them ever doing something bad later on is jarring.
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LMAO

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1414920040521023489

Trump on Kavanaugh: "Where would he be without me? I saved his life. He wouldn't even be in a law firm. Who would have had him? Nobody. Totally disgraced. Only I saved him."

While my first reaction is to laugh at the naked corruption and stupidity here ("Who would have had him?" Us, the American people, because the man was a federal judge.) it really should be a bigger deal given how plain and blunt the corrupt transactional motives are laid bare.

Extra lmao in the article for "I don't want anything ... but I am very disappointed in him, in his rulings." Once again acting like saying "I don't want anything" are magic words that mean his very obvious transactional approach to literally everything isn't just that and he's totally in the clear.

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I am legitimately wondering whether he actually convinced himself Kavanaugh didn't have a job before the Supreme Court.
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Amusingly I imagine that will pressure Kavanaugh to become less politically biased as a rebuff to those comments.

Trump is willing to burn everything to the ground for himself.


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