Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 372: Greene New Deal

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Leafeon13N posted...

One of the biggesr reasons to be pro weed is that they are less harmful than cigarettes. Taje your trash take elsewhere.

My trash is right at home in this garbage argument

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And Tony, are you asking me to quote you not making a concession? As in are you asking me to quote something you didn't say? Do you see why that might be difficult?
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https://www.publichealthlawcenter.org/sites/default/files/resources/tclc-fdacitizenpetition-menthol-2013.pdf

Here's the petition in question.

Basically, flavored cigarettes (except menthol) were banned over 10 years ago, but menthol and flavored cigars were left untouched, so a citizen's petition was filed to basically complete the ban. The FDA was ordered by a court to respond, and they took as long as they possibly could, even getting a 90 day extension (Which ends today), to consider arguments and research, and have decided today to grant the petition.

This isn't some random Biden initiative of trying to look like he's helping minorities or anything, it started far before him.

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Ban mixing drinks with alcohol because it makes alcohol tastier so people are more likely to drink it.

Banning the sale of menthol cigarettes will reduce the amount of new people who will become addicted to cigarettes.

It will creates a MEASURABLE reduction in cigarette related death.

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The fear that this will be used as a pretext for police to target minorities for minor offenses? I can see that as a reasonable fear to have. Police have proven that if given the free reign they will use minor infractions to target minorities. But the response to that fear should not be to oppose an objectively good policy change, but to rather keep the conversation of such pretext interactions alive and support police reform that will reduce the ability of officers to use such infractions as justification for a racially targeted interaction.

Tony you are taking a reasonable fear in an unreasonable direction.

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kevwaffles posted...

Not that I'm sure how calling out my posting habits is an acceptable thing for you to do by your standards.

By my standards? Unless I think Im one of the next posts, I try to quote everything I respond to to avoid confusion.

Im asking you to quote what talking point I abandoned, or explainanything. The very first comment I made where I said my position still stands, so its basically you arguing with a strawman and me trying to argue with THAT, and its impossible and not fun.


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StealThisSheen posted...

This isn't some random Biden initiative of trying to look like he's helping minorities or anything, it started far before him.

so what you're saying is

thanks obama

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And as easy as it is to go "Look, even the ACLU is against it," the African American Tobacco Control Leadership Council is one of the petition signees, so an objective stance on that matter can't really be taken.

EDIT: And even they don't think the ban is bad itself, just the potential police response. It's like FFD said. Let's not just immediately hate something objectively good, when we should instead just take it as further reason and call to push for police reform.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

kevwaffles posted...

Not that I'm sure how calling out my posting habits is an acceptable thing for you to do by your standards.

By my standards? Unless I think Im one of the next posts, I try to quote everything I respond to to avoid confusion.

Im asking you to quote what talking point I abandoned, or explainanything. The very first comment I made where I said my position still stands, so its basically you arguing with a strawman and me trying to argue with THAT, and its impossible and not fun.

kevwaffles posted...

And Tony, are you asking me to quote you not making a concession? As in are you asking me to quote something you didn't say? Do you see why that might be difficult?

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My use of the ACLU is defense from accusations by people like Kev, Ushi, and Red like Im some crazy person for thinking its racially imbalanced.


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Ban all cigarettes

Ban all guns

Anyone that puts us closer to those end goals is a win

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The ACLU and the African American Tobacco Control Leadership Council have entirely different purposes as organizations, how is that even related? One is specifically an advocacy group that wants to ban flavored tobacco products, and the other is a group that wants to protect individual civil liberties.

I don't even agree that the policy is good, let alone objectively so, though, so definitely not going to see eye to eye with people here. And I definitely don't accept the idea that "continue advocating for police reform" is a good enough reason to handwave away the negative consequences that will happen until police reform is enacted.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

My use of the ACLU is defense from accusations by people like Kev, Ushi, and Red like Im some crazy person for thinking its racially imbalanced.

Now who's accusing people of things they didn't say?

Also I think you might be hyper fixating on the part about abandoning arguments. I will happily concede that you might not have done that, but that was only just a theory as to how the hell you think you've made any concessions in the conversation. Or damn near ever. That was really the crux of the point.
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StealThisSheen posted...

So, just to be clear, you don't have an issue with the concept of menthol cigarettes, which is to make smoking easier so people are more likely to get addicted young instead of stopping early because of a negative experience?

That's how the tobacco companies use them in a predatory way but no I don't have a problem with flavored cigarettes existing beyond that.

I mean, do you feel the same way about like Smirnoff Ice and Mike's Hard Lemonade and the hard seltzer trend? We flavor alcohol all the time to reduce the hard taste and I'm sure a lot of young people get into drinking through that. It's just less addictive.

But if you have a problem with the actual addictive element why not target that instead of the flavoring?

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Okay, so remember that Gaetz story?

The Daily Beast obtained drafts of confession letters written by Gaetz's "wingman" who was angling for a pardon at the end of the Trump presidency stating that he (the wingman) and Gaetz paid for sex with an underaged girl. They also obtained Signal messages between Greenberg (the wingman) and Roger Stone discussing the matter - including payment of $250k in bitcoin for the pardon (because even though the messages were set to disappear, they took screenshots)

https://twitter.com/MEPFuller/status/1387927418036498437

https://www.thedailybeast.com/joel-greenberg-letter-written-for-roger-stone-says-matt-gaetz-paid-for-sex-with-minor

Also, the claim Greenberg makes is they "confronted" her when they found out she was 17... and then months after her 18th birthday, started contacting her again.

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good lordy god

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KamikazePotato posted...

Ban all cigarettes

Ban all guns

Anyone that puts us closer to those end goals is a win

Ban all alcohol
Ban high fructose corn syrup
Ban having children out of wedlock
Ban liberal arts majors
Ban owning vehicles if public transportation is available
Ban setting your thermostat below 76 degrees in the summer

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Ban Ulti

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masterplum posted...

Ban all alcohol
Ban high fructose corn syrup

I don't drink much and have a corn allergy, let's heckin' go (kidding, mostly)

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PerfectChaosZ posted...

Ban mixing drinks with alcohol because it makes alcohol tastier so people are more likely to drink it.

A lot of people probably support that too. They just know that alcohol is too popular to get away with it.

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Yesmar_ posted...

A lot of people probably support that too. They just know that alcohol is too popular to get away with it.

Which is exactly the point people are making. They are banning menthol because the people it's popular with are poor minorities so they can do it anyways

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As an aside, cocktails are basically an invention of Prohibition, or at least became much more prevalent then. The liquor itself became way worse due to trying to distill it faster and having worse setups in the first place, ergo cocktails to drink the new inferior liquor.
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kevwaffles posted...

As an aside, cocktails are basically an invention of Prohibition, or at least became much more prevalent then. The liquor itself became way worse due to trying to distill it faster and having worse setups in the first place, ergo cocktails to drink the new inferior liquor.

Have any interesting source for this?

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Not off hand. I think it's something I heard during a distillery tour.
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Cocktails definitely existed before prohibition. The old fashioned (the original cocktail) and the martini are examples of pre-prohibition cocktails. It's true that they did become more prevalent due to prohibition though.

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Maybe the term was penned then? Something in my brain wanted to phrase it that way, though you're definitely correct.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/manchin-dc-statehood-amendment/2021/04/30/39fab2ae-a9dd-11eb-8d25-7b30e74923ea_story.html

Eat shit Manchin youre trash.

His argument is that it requires a Constitutional Amendment to be added as a state.

Since when, motherfucker?

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Manchin doesn't want DC to be a state because then he stops being the only senator that matters

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Abolish the Senate.

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Manchin's the kid that just realized having a younger sibling would mean he has to share his toys

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Abolish the Senate.

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Just get rid of him.

Would be better to have the minority.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Just get rid of him.

Would be better to have the minority.

It really wouldn't.

We don't need McConnell to fuck the judiciary up even more than he has already.

But yes I want to slam my head into a wall repeatedly while screaming at this stupidity.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Just get rid of him.

Would be better to have the minority.

Okay this is straight-up not true. Without Manchin Biden has no cabinet, and that hamstrings efforts to get absolutely anything of value done. Plus Manchin is far easier to talk into actually doing anything useful than any Republican would be.

Like I'm as much a Manchin hater as anybody and even I can admit he has value just because of how the Senate works. Replacing him with a Republican (and this is West Virginia we're talking about, if you replace him you're getting an R) makes everything worse.

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Manchin is the worst democratic senator

but he is still a democratic senator


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It just baffles be that the dude thinks being an insufferable obstructionist asshole is going to win him re-election. He isn't getting re-elected either way.

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You don't have to reconfirm the Cabinet for a second term, do you? Like that seems so irrelevant (historically) that I wouldn't have ever considered it.
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kevwaffles posted...

You don't have to reconfirm the Cabinet for a second term, do you? Like that seems so irrelevant (historically) that I wouldn't have ever considered it.

I don't believe so, no.

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I have an odd theory about Joe Manchin: He knows that he probably isn't getting re-elected, but he's loud about blocking things the left really wants largely because they wouldn't pass anyway. Manchin stating his views in public like this means he gets all the hate from the left, while other senators can keep their opposition private.

Of course, this wouldn't necessarily mean Manchin doesn't believe all the stuff he says. He's just willing to be very loud about it to protect other Democrats who agree with him.
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That theory is awful.

Do not excuse Manchin from being a trash human.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Manchin is the worst democratic senator

but he is still a democratic senator

I think I actually dislike Feinstein and Sinema more based on the what sort of senator could we have metric.

But yeah hes trash but at least Biden has a cabinet and we got the relief bill through.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

That theory is awful.

Do not excuse Manchin from being a trash human.

You're missing the point. Manchin sucks, but he's also being a giant distraction so nobody notices how much other senators also suck.
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Xeybozn posted...

You're missing the point. Manchin sucks, but he's also being a giant distraction so nobody notices how much other senators also suck.

Yeah but I don't think it's a conscious choice at all. I think he just sucks.

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No manchin means dems have minorities on all the committees

You would both get nothing done and not force republicans to make it obvious nothing was getting done

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Very disappointing from Manchin.

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Real question: what has Manchin supported since Biden took office?

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masterplum posted...

No manchin means dems have minorities on all the committees

You would both get nothing done and not force republicans to make it obvious nothing was getting done

Yeah this is way more baffling than our last discussion


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I mean Manchin opposes stuff like a stubborn child but it seems more for show than anything. Certainly better than not having him at all.

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