Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 372: Greene New Deal

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Leafeon13N 04/27/21 6:29:09 AM #51:	ChaosTonyV4 posted... youre going to immediately ask what to do about Republicans, and my answer is fuck em, but thats not good enough. Also I'm not sure where you even come up with this tbh. We aren't even in a position to care about needing Republicans for 60 when we cant really get over 48 Dems for anything major at this points. I've never advocated for any policy for the purpose of appeasing Republicans. So I'm assuming this is just you running in your bitter circle fantasizing something dumb in your own head. They are literally a party of no policy except do nothing and enhance racism. Why the hell would i ever say do anything to appease them. Unless you are taking out of context statements from when it looked like the Senate was lost completely. I think i said something about hoping Biden can work with Republicans or literally nothing will get passed for 4 years. But that doesn't apply in a 50 50 world. So if that is what you got that from you have taken it wildly out of context. <cite>Leafeon13N posted [p:953275483] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>ChaosTonyV4 posted... </cite> <quote>youre going to immediately ask what to do about Republicans, and my answer is fuck em, but thats not good enough.</quote>Also I'm not sure where you even come up with this tbh. We aren't even in a position to care about needing Republicans for 60 when we cant really get over 48 Dems for anything major at this points. I've never advocated for any policy for the purpose of appeasing Republicans. So I'm assuming this is just you running in your bitter circle fantasizing something dumb in your own head. They are literally a party of no policy except do nothing and enhance racism. Why the hell would i ever say do anything to appease them. Unless you are taking out of context statements from when it looked like the Senate was lost completely. I think i said something about hoping Biden can work with Republicans or literally nothing will get passed for 4 years. But that doesn't apply in a 50 50 world. So if that is what you got that from you have taken it wildly out of context. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 9:18:21 AM #52:	red13n posted... Anyway you two missed the larger point. Which is that there are people on the far left tend to be really unfocused and don't have any idea of what they actually need to do to get any of the things they want, or even move towards the goalpost No you missed the point, and didnt even read Fumins post. Our plans literally require you guys not doing this (and collective action, but also this): red13n posted... So many times people on the left are "why didnt you do this" when the end result of "this" typically is a big shift to the right I just explained this. The Right doesnt consider backlash, they just do what needs to be done, and thats why they have a Supreme Court majority and will probably have one the rest of our lives. Youre basically asking people for specific steps to obtain their goals when anything we propose requires our allies to buy in. And they dont. red13n posted... you need to find some way to make your future seem appealing, and actually feed it into the masses. So many of our goals have broad support, and consistent appeal! If youre asking us to provide steps to get the Right to sign on, youre asking me to wring water from a stone. --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953278375] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>red13n posted... </cite> <quote>Anyway you two missed the larger point. Which is that there are people on the far left tend to be really unfocused and don't have any idea of what they actually need to do to get any of the things they want, or even move towards the goalpost</quote> No you missed the point, and didnt even read Fumins post. Our plans literally require you guys not doing this (and collective action, but also this): red13n posted... </cite> <quote>So many times people on the left are "why didnt you do this" when the end result of "this" typically is a big shift to the right</quote> I just explained this. The Right doesnt consider backlash, they just do what needs to be done, and thats why they have a Supreme Court majority and will probably have one the rest of our lives. Youre basically asking people for specific steps to obtain their goals when anything we propose requires our allies to buy in. And they dont. red13n posted... </cite> <quote>you need to find some way to make your future seem appealing, and actually feed it into the masses.</quote> So many of our goals have broad support, and consistent appeal! If youre asking us to provide steps to get the Right to sign on, youre asking me to wring water from a stone. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 9:29:44 AM #53:	Leafeon13N posted... I've never advocated for any policy for the purpose of appeasing Republicans. So I'm assuming this is just you running in your bitter circle fantasizing something dumb in your own head. My guy you did it. It was a Royal you in the sense that the people asking these questions always do it, but you did it regardless. The reason ol Twitter guy got frustrated is because we deal with this constantly. In the same way you know exactly what to expect when dealing with MAGA chuds, Ive encountered countless allies who INSIST Im on your side! but would rather nitpick my ideas and then blame ME for us not taking a step towards them, rather than contributing. --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953278676] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Leafeon13N posted... </cite> <quote>I've never advocated for any policy for the purpose of appeasing Republicans. So I'm assuming this is just you running in your bitter circle fantasizing something dumb in your own head.</quote> My guy you did it. It was a Royal you in the sense that the people asking these questions always do it, but you did it regardless. The reason ol Twitter guy got frustrated is because we deal with this constantly. In the same way you know exactly what to expect when dealing with MAGA chuds, Ive encountered countless allies who INSIST Im on your side! but would rather nitpick my ideas and then blame ME for us not taking a step towards them, rather than contributing. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 11:57:08 AM #54:	I was going to say something in the last topic when you mentioned that point, but I was busy and by the time I was available, it felt like it wouldn't benefit the conversation. But now I've gotta add one thing here. You've mentioned multiple times that the "Right" doesn't consider backlash, and that's true. However, the Right doesn't really experience "backlash". They might not win every time, but Trump won in 2016, the GOP picked up seats in the Senate in 2018, Trump managed to get 74 million votes in 2020/the GOP cut their House minority down to single digits/they held the Senate to a 50-50 split. The GOP, regardless of how heinous or awful they are, are always two years (at most) away from controlling our government, given that their only goal is to ensure nothing changes or works in our political system. They are regularly rewarded for their behavior because their voters are cultist-level of devoted, while the opposition VOTERS (not the politicians, but the VOTERS THEMSELVES) are not. And thus, we get fucked time and time again. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you want Democratic politicians to play politics like Republican politicians, then Democratic VOTERS need to VOTE like Republican voters. As it stands, when Democratic politicians attempt to play politics like Republicans, they get kneecapped on two fronts. From the fiscally-conservative majority (their moderate base), the voters feel like the politicians are no longer representing them and both parties have moved to the extremes and left them behind. From the progressive left (a minority, but still sizable portion of the party), they nitpick and complain about the policy not being good enough, and then subsequently don't turn out to vote. So, then the Dems lose for trying to push progressive policies (even if they're not as "extreme" as you'd like them to be"), and the government pushes further to the right by rewarding the GOP. Moving forward from there, the Dems get gunshy again, because they have no reason to believe that even moderately-progressive policies are what their voters actually want. I'm not going to put words into Red's mouth and try to interpret Red's argument, but it's not dissimilar from my own, so I'll say this is me speaking. Slightly less than half this country gladly and fervently supports the GOP. This is not about appealing to them (aside from MAYBE depressing their turnout by limiting the irrational fear they feel about a Democratic government), but rather acknowledging that anyone to the left of the current GOP base (so moderate Republicans, centrist Democrats, and progressives, among other groups) has an uphill battle to maintain any sort of power to affect change and enact policy. From my perspective, seeing a lot of progressive voices online, they often come across as very standoffish and arrogant. Policy discussions often just turn into "Just do it. The Dems should just do X, Y, and Z. A, B and C aren't good enough. X, Y and Z would be so simple." There's this mindset presented that progressives are just so smart and understand everything, and everyone should just go along with whatever they want, because they're just so much smarter than most people and it's for the unwashed masses' own good. Hell, look at this message you posted in this very topic: "I firmly believe there are more people that support those ideas than don't, but the apathy and media propaganda is strong enough to prevent them from coming together. My evidence is all the people in the Primary who said "Yeah I like everything Bernie stands for, but I think we need Joe to win"." To you, it couldn't possibly be that people just wanted Joe Biden more than Bernie. No, it had to be this mindset of "Bernie can't win, and I want to vote for a winner." It's infuriating, because it feels like you're actively going out of your way to avoid ever formulating a winning strategy. Your constant refrain is "We're right, but the system/the media/the establishment screw us over." It couldn't possibly be that your ideas aren't nearly as popular as you believe them to be, and you do a poor job of marketing them to the moderate majority of the party, who need to be onboard since they outnumber you. Nope, you're doing NOTHING wrong, and it's just inevitable that you're gonna get screwed over by forces beyond your control. This brings me back to the politicians vs. voters point. Republican politicians can do whatever they want, whenever they want, because their voters will never punish them for that. If you want progressive policies pushed by the Democrats, then progressives need to turn out with the same cult-like devotion that the GOP gets every election. Right now, moderates are reliable for the Democrats, so they get catered to. And the party goes out of their way to push policy that is moderately progressive, but not so much so as to make those voters think the party has abandoned them. Meanwhile, it seems like progressives only ever want to kneecap the Democrats by saying their policies aren't good enough (when the only other option wants to reverse any and all progressive wins of the past century), while subsequently not turning out to vote, even when they have their preferred candidate (Bernie in two primaries) on the ballot. That's the message they're getting from progressives as it stands: that you want the party to cater to you instead of their base, without reliably supporting them and giving them a reason to think progressive policies might actually be popular. --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953283325] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>I was going to say something in the last topic when you mentioned that point, but I was busy and by the time I was available, it felt like it wouldn't benefit the conversation. But now I've gotta add one thing here. You've mentioned multiple times that the "Right" doesn't consider backlash, and that's true. However, the Right doesn't really experience "backlash". They might not win every time, but Trump won in 2016, the GOP picked up seats in the Senate in 2018, Trump managed to get 74 million votes in 2020/the GOP cut their House minority down to single digits/they held the Senate to a 50-50 split. The GOP, regardless of how heinous or awful they are, are always two years (at most) away from controlling our government, given that their only goal is to ensure nothing changes or works in our political system. They are regularly rewarded for their behavior because their voters are cultist-level of devoted, while the opposition VOTERS (not the politicians, but the VOTERS THEMSELVES) are not. And thus, we get fucked time and time again. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you want Democratic politicians to play politics like Republican politicians, then Democratic VOTERS need to VOTE like Republican voters. As it stands, when Democratic politicians attempt to play politics like Republicans, they get kneecapped on two fronts. From the fiscally-conservative majority (their moderate base), the voters feel like the politicians are no longer representing them and both parties have moved to the extremes and left them behind. From the progressive left (a minority, but still sizable portion of the party), they nitpick and complain about the policy not being good enough, and then subsequently don't turn out to vote. So, then the Dems lose for trying to push progressive policies (even if they're not as "extreme" as you'd like them to be"), and the government pushes further to the right by rewarding the GOP. Moving forward from there, the Dems get gunshy again, because they have no reason to believe that even moderately-progressive policies are what their voters actually want. I'm not going to put words into Red's mouth and try to interpret Red's argument, but it's not dissimilar from my own, so I'll say this is me speaking. Slightly less than half this country gladly and fervently supports the GOP. This is not about appealing to them (aside from MAYBE depressing their turnout by limiting the irrational fear they feel about a Democratic government), but rather acknowledging that anyone to the left of the current GOP base (so moderate Republicans, centrist Democrats, and progressives, among other groups) has an uphill battle to maintain any sort of power to affect change and enact policy. From my perspective, seeing a lot of progressive voices online, they often come across as very standoffish and arrogant. Policy discussions often just turn into "Just do it. The Dems should just do X, Y, and Z. A, B and C aren't good enough. X, Y and Z would be so simple." There's this mindset presented that progressives are just so smart and understand everything, and everyone should just go along with whatever they want, because they're just so much smarter than most people and it's for the unwashed masses' own good. Hell, look at this message you posted in this very topic: "I firmly believe there are more people that support those ideas than don't, but the apathy and media propaganda is strong enough to prevent them from coming together. My evidence is all the people in the Primary who said "Yeah I like everything Bernie stands for, but I think we need Joe to win"." To you, it couldn't possibly be that people just wanted Joe Biden more than Bernie. No, it had to be this mindset of "Bernie can't win, and I want to vote for a winner." It's infuriating, because it feels like you're actively going out of your way to avoid ever formulating a winning strategy. Your constant refrain is "We're right, but the system/the media/the establishment screw us over." It couldn't possibly be that your ideas aren't nearly as popular as you believe them to be, and you do a poor job of marketing them to the moderate majority of the party, who need to be onboard since they outnumber you. Nope, you're doing NOTHING wrong, and it's just inevitable that you're gonna get screwed over by forces beyond your control. This brings me back to the politicians vs. voters point. Republican politicians can do whatever they want, whenever they want, because their voters will never punish them for that. If you want progressive policies pushed by the Democrats, then progressives need to turn out with the same cult-like devotion that the GOP gets every election. Right now, moderates are reliable for the Democrats, so they get catered to. And the party goes out of their way to push policy that is moderately progressive, but not so much so as to make those voters think the party has abandoned them. Meanwhile, it seems like progressives only ever want to kneecap the Democrats by saying their policies aren't good enough (when the only other option wants to reverse any and all progressive wins of the past century), while subsequently not turning out to vote, even when they have their preferred candidate (Bernie in two primaries) on the ballot. That's the message they're getting from progressives as it stands: that you want the party to cater to you instead of their base, without reliably supporting them and giving them a reason to think progressive policies might actually be popular. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 04/27/21 12:07:37 PM #55:	Red, what is your actual theory of change right now if you don't believe in pressuring those in power? --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:953283655] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Red, what is your actual theory of change right now if you don't believe in pressuring those in power? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 12:39:41 PM #56:	Inviso posted... To you, it couldn't possibly be that people just wanted Joe Biden more than Bernie. No, it had to be this mindset of "Bernie can't win, and I want to vote for a winner." It's infuriating, because it feels like you're actively going out of your way to avoid ever formulating a winning strategy. Your constant refrain is "We're right, but the system/the media/the establishment screw us over." It couldn't possibly be that your ideas aren't nearly as popular as you believe them to be, and you do a poor job of marketing them to the moderate majority of the party, who need to be onboard since they outnumber you. Nope, you're doing NOTHING wrong, and it's just inevitable that you're gonna get screwed over by forces beyond your control. Dude, lmao before you went mask off you were one of those people literally saying you supported everything Bernie stood for but didnt support him because you didnt think hed win! It has nothing to do with arrogance, you people keep saying time and again that you agree with Bernies ideals, but you dont support him, and then when he lost you go well maybe people didnt agree with him as much you thought you arrogant idiots! Rock did this too! Red did a form of this. This isnt some unique personal attack Im focusing on you, your kind are a very common type of Democrat. Inviso posted... Meanwhile, it seems like progressives only ever want to kneecap the Democrats by saying their policies aren't good enough (when the only other option wants to reverse any and all progressive wins of the past century), while subsequently not turning out to vote, even when they have their preferred candidate (Bernie in two primaries) on the ballot. That's the message they're getting from progressives as it stands: that you want the party to cater to you instead of their base, without reliably supporting them and giving them a reason to think progressive policies might actually be popular. I mean this just say it all, doesnt it? Do you agree with progressive politics or not? Because if you dont, were not on the same team, and if you do, how is it on me if you dont show up to vote? --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953284866] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>To you, it couldn't possibly be that people just wanted Joe Biden more than Bernie. No, it had to be this mindset of "Bernie can't win, and I want to vote for a winner." It's infuriating, because it feels like you're actively going out of your way to avoid ever formulating a winning strategy. Your constant refrain is "We're right, but the system/the media/the establishment screw us over." It couldn't possibly be that your ideas aren't nearly as popular as you believe them to be, and you do a poor job of marketing them to the moderate majority of the party, who need to be onboard since they outnumber you. Nope, you're doing NOTHING wrong, and it's just inevitable that you're gonna get screwed over by forces beyond your control.</quote> Dude, lmao before you went mask off you were one of those people literally saying you supported everything Bernie stood for but didnt support him because you didnt think hed win! It has nothing to do with arrogance, you people keep saying time and again that you agree with Bernies ideals, but you dont support him, and then when he lost you go well maybe people didnt agree with him as much you thought you arrogant idiots! Rock did this too! Red did a form of this. This isnt some unique personal attack Im focusing on you, your kind are a very common type of Democrat. Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>Meanwhile, it seems like progressives only ever want to kneecap the Democrats by saying their policies aren't good enough (when the only other option wants to reverse any and all progressive wins of the past century), while subsequently not turning out to vote, even when they have their preferred candidate (Bernie in two primaries) on the ballot. That's the message they're getting from progressives as it stands: that you want the party to cater to you instead of their base, without reliably supporting them and giving them a reason to think progressive policies might actually be popular.</quote> I mean this just say it all, doesnt it? Do you agree with progressive politics or not? Because if you dont, were not on the same team, and if you do, how is it on me if you dont show up to vote? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 12:45:21 PM #57:	I DO support what Bernie stands for, and I voted for him in the primary! The majority of the party did not, however. In fact, they coalesced around Biden because moderates are more popular than progressives at this time. Basically, if you want to uphold your morals and say "I won't stand for anything less than the exact policies I want", then fine. That's up to you and that's your decision. But don't turn around and get pissy when the Democrats don't then push for the policies that you didn't turn out to vote for en masse. They're under zero obligation to appeal to voters that can't be arsed to vote for them and let them know "Hey, we want the things you're doing." It's no different than how Republicans make ZERO effort to appeal to minority groups with their policies, because they're relying almost entirely on a white voter base. Why alienate the people who are voting for you in order to appeal to people who aren't? --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953285102] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>I DO support what Bernie stands for, and I voted for him in the primary! The majority of the party did not, however. In fact, they coalesced around Biden because moderates are more popular than progressives at this time. Basically, if you want to uphold your morals and say "I won't stand for anything less than the exact policies I want", then fine. That's up to you and that's your decision. But don't turn around and get pissy when the Democrats don't then push for the policies that you didn't turn out to vote for en masse. They're under zero obligation to appeal to voters that can't be arsed to vote for them and let them know "Hey, we want the things you're doing." It's no different than how Republicans make ZERO effort to appeal to minority groups with their policies, because they're relying almost entirely on a white voter base. Why alienate the people who are voting for you in order to appeal to people who aren't? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DoomTheGyarados 04/27/21 12:46:40 PM #58:	Inviso posted... I DO support what Bernie stands for, and I voted for him in the primary! The majority of the party did not, however. In fact, they coalesced around Biden because moderates are more popular than progressives at this time. Basically, if you want to uphold your morals and say "I won't stand for anything less than the exact policies I want", then fine. That's up to you and that's your decision. But don't turn around and get pissy when the Democrats don't then push for the policies that you didn't turn out to vote for en masse. They're under zero obligation to appeal to voters that can't be arsed to vote for them and let them know "Hey, we want the things you're doing." It's no different than how Republicans make ZERO effort to appeal to minority groups with their policies, because they're relying almost entirely on a white voter base. Why alienate the people who are voting for you in order to appeal to people who aren't? We compromised on 15 dollars an hour. We want 23. We are trying. --- Sir Chris Doom The Kanto Saga - Animated Series - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH4wNFCrLM <cite>DoomTheGyarados posted [p:953285150] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>I DO support what Bernie stands for, and I voted for him in the primary! The majority of the party did not, however. In fact, they coalesced around Biden because moderates are more popular than progressives at this time. Basically, if you want to uphold your morals and say "I won't stand for anything less than the exact policies I want", then fine. That's up to you and that's your decision. But don't turn around and get pissy when the Democrats don't then push for the policies that you didn't turn out to vote for en masse. They're under zero obligation to appeal to voters that can't be arsed to vote for them and let them know "Hey, we want the things you're doing." It's no different than how Republicans make ZERO effort to appeal to minority groups with their policies, because they're relying almost entirely on a white voter base. Why alienate the people who are voting for you in order to appeal to people who aren't?</quote> We compromised on 15 dollars an hour. We want 23. We are trying. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 12:48:46 PM #59:	I also love the idea that its up to the Left to convince Democrats to support us, but if we dont vote Democrat (and thus, Republicans win), thats ALSO our fault. Meanwhile, when Democrats actually do promise us specific policy to entice us and then dont deliver, were not allowed to be mad. Absolutely absurd you think were arrogant when you sit there and straight-up say were not allowed to disagree with you. Please actually read my post this time. --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953285215] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>I also love the idea that its up to the Left to convince Democrats to support us, but if we dont vote Democrat (and thus, Republicans win), thats ALSO our fault. Meanwhile, when Democrats actually do promise us specific policy to entice us and then dont deliver, were not allowed to be mad. Absolutely absurd you think were arrogant when you sit there and straight-up say were not allowed to disagree with you. Please actually read my post this time. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DoomTheGyarados 04/27/21 12:49:44 PM #60:	If it helps I will say inviso is the crazy one this time. I know I get on you a lot but you are right here --- Sir Chris Doom The Kanto Saga - Animated Series - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH4wNFCrLM <cite>DoomTheGyarados posted [p:953285243] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>If it helps I will say inviso is the crazy one this time. I know I get on you a lot but you are right here </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 12:50:16 PM #61:	Inviso posted... They're under zero obligation to appeal to voters that can't be arsed to vote for them and let them know "Hey, we want the things you're doing." Hey thats fine as long as you admit Democrats are solely to blame die for 2016. --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953285262] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>They're under zero obligation to appeal to voters that can't be arsed to vote for them and let them know "Hey, we want the things you're doing."</quote> Hey thats fine as long as you admit Democrats are solely to blame die for 2016. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 12:50:25 PM #62:	ChaosTonyV4 posted... I also love the idea that its up to the Left to convince Democrats to support us, but if we dont vote Democrat (and thus, Republicans win), thats ALSO our fault. Meanwhile, when Democrats actually do promise us specific policy to entice us and then dont deliver, were not allowed to be mad. Absolutely absurd you think were arrogant when you sit there and straight-up say were not allowed to disagree with you. Please actually read my post this time. Do you ACTUALLY want progressive policies to be implemented? Yes or no? --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953285269] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>ChaosTonyV4 posted... </cite> <quote>I also love the idea that its up to the Left to convince Democrats to support us, but if we dont vote Democrat (and thus, Republicans win), thats ALSO our fault. Meanwhile, when Democrats actually do promise us specific policy to entice us and then dont deliver, were not allowed to be mad. Absolutely absurd you think were arrogant when you sit there and straight-up say were not allowed to disagree with you. Please actually read my post this time.</quote> Do you ACTUALLY want progressive policies to be implemented? Yes or no? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 12:51:20 PM #63:	Inviso posted... Do you ACTUALLY want progressive policies to be implemented? Yes or no? Why are you asking ME this? --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953285304] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>Do you ACTUALLY want progressive policies to be implemented? Yes or no?</quote> Why are you asking ME this? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Xeybozn 04/27/21 12:51:35 PM #64:	DoomTheGyarados posted... We compromised on 15 dollars an hour. We want 23. Who is this "we"? I haven't seen any large group arguing for $23/hr. Not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious where that number comes from. --- Congrats to 2020 GotD Guru champ azuarc! <cite>Xeybozn posted [p:953285315] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>DoomTheGyarados posted...</cite> <quote>We compromised on 15 dollars an hour. We want 23.</quote> Who is this "we"? I haven't seen any large group arguing for $23/hr. Not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious where that number comes from.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 12:52:01 PM #65:	ChaosTonyV4 posted... Why are you asking ME this? Because I genuinely can't tell, given your complete aversion to any sort of strategy that might accomplish your goals. --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953285331] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>ChaosTonyV4 posted... </cite> <quote>Why are you asking ME this?</quote> Because I genuinely can't tell, given your complete aversion to any sort of strategy that might accomplish your goals. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DoomTheGyarados 04/27/21 12:53:50 PM #66:	Xeybozn posted... Who is this "we"? I haven't seen any large group arguing for $23/hr. Not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious where that number comes from. Progressive circles in general cite this number if wages kept up with productivity ie workers got the same share of a company's productivity as they did half a century ago. The compromise to the table position is 15, but people abuse people like Bernie really just asking for something fair to knock it down even past that. --- Sir Chris Doom The Kanto Saga - Animated Series - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH4wNFCrLM <cite>DoomTheGyarados posted [p:953285406] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Xeybozn posted... </cite> <quote>Who is this "we"? I haven't seen any large group arguing for $23/hr. Not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious where that number comes from.</quote> Progressive circles in general cite this number if wages kept up with productivity ie workers got the same share of a company's productivity as they did half a century ago. The compromise to the table position is 15, but people abuse people like Bernie really just asking for something fair to knock it down even past that. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DoomTheGyarados 04/27/21 12:55:31 PM #67:	Inviso posted... Because I genuinely can't tell, given your complete aversion to any sort of strategy that might accomplish your goals. Btw during this argument several people have died due to not having Healthcare in America. But tell me more about Tony dooming this country. Tony shouldn't have to be responsible for saving America and being frustrated with people who let people die every day is pretty reasonable. --- Sir Chris Doom The Kanto Saga - Animated Series - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH4wNFCrLM <cite>DoomTheGyarados posted [p:953285476] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>Because I genuinely can't tell, given your complete aversion to any sort of strategy that might accomplish your goals.</quote> Btw during this argument several people have died due to not having Healthcare in America. But tell me more about Tony dooming this country. Tony shouldn't have to be responsible for saving America and being frustrated with people who let people die every day is pretty reasonable. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 12:56:34 PM #68:	Inviso posted... Because I genuinely can't tell, given your complete aversion to any sort of strategy that might accomplish your goals. lmao whos arrogant? I dont believe my goals are possible without class solidarity, YOU think our supposedly shared goals arent happening because people like ME arent trying. Your genuine lack of respect for the Left has warped your view of politics where you both think its our fault AND we dont actually want to do things YOU say you want. Its absurd. --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953285509] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>Because I genuinely can't tell, given your complete aversion to any sort of strategy that might accomplish your goals.</quote> lmao whos arrogant? I dont believe my goals are possible without class solidarity, YOU think our supposedly shared goals arent happening because people like ME arent trying. Your genuine lack of respect for the Left has warped your view of politics where you both think its our fault AND we dont actually want to do things YOU say you want. Its absurd. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Suprak the Stud 04/27/21 1:02:07 PM #69:	Xeybozn posted... Who is this "we"? I haven't seen any large group arguing for $23/hr. Not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious where that number comes from. AOC amongst others. 15 was the number set up like a decade ago so there is a chunk of us that would like that to increase with actual purchasing power. Chriss argument about productivity is also a salient one imo. --- Moops? "I thought you were making up diseases? That's spontaneous dental hydroplosion." <cite>Suprak the Stud posted [p:953285711] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Xeybozn posted... </cite> <quote>Who is this "we"? I haven't seen any large group arguing for $23/hr. Not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious where that number comes from.</quote> AOC amongst others. 15 was the number set up like a decade ago so there is a chunk of us that would like that to increase with actual purchasing power. Chriss argument about productivity is also a salient one imo. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Suprak the Stud 04/27/21 1:04:36 PM #70:	I wont get into the specifics of this argument, but Tony is absolutely right that there is a large chunk of democrats that like to both blame progressives for scaring off moderate dems with their policy ideas but also go well you dont have any solutions anyway and it is driving me a little nuts. Again, not saying that is what is happening here but Ive run into that argument a disappointing number of times. --- Moops? "I thought you were making up diseases? That's spontaneous dental hydroplosion." <cite>Suprak the Stud posted [p:953285786] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>I wont get into the specifics of this argument, but Tony is absolutely right that there is a large chunk of democrats that like to both blame progressives for scaring off moderate dems with their policy ideas but also go well you dont have any solutions anyway and it is driving me a little nuts. Again, not saying that is what is happening here but Ive run into that argument a disappointing number of times. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
PrivateBiscuit1 04/27/21 1:14:56 PM #71:	Is it that time again for the left to blame progressives on something again? --- I stream sometimes. Check it out! www.twitch.tv/heroicbiz/ <cite>PrivateBiscuit1 posted [p:953286161] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Is it that time again for the left to blame progressives on something again? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 1:17:25 PM #72:	ChaosTonyV4 posted... lmao whos arrogant? I dont believe my goals are possible without class solidarity, YOU think our supposedly shared goals arent happening because people like ME arent trying. Your genuine lack of respect for the Left has warped your view of politics where you both think its our fault AND we dont actually want to do things YOU say you want. Its absurd. I don't believe your goals are possible without accepting the fact that we exist under a two-party political system, and one party is a fucking doomsday cult that wants to wipe out any semblance of progressive thought before moving on to any semblance of moderate thought. And so long as one side will back their party in lock step, and the other side has to deal with in-fighting (and while I get annoyed at progressives for this on the board or on Twitter, when I'm with moderates in-person, I get just as frustrated when they complain about AOC, or Bernie, or free college tuition) that inevitably depresses voter turnout and leads to the cult taking power back. I just want everyone who is not Republican to fucking toe the line. Progressives, if you think we can do better than whatever minimum wage increase was on the table, oh well. Fucking go with the Democrats because it's still better than the GOP. Moderates, if you don't think it's fair that kids get free college tuition after you had to pay your way through college, oh well. Fucking go with the Democrats because it's still better than the GOP. I'm sorry, but whatever idealism I once had towards America died over the course of the 2016/2018/2020 elections. I no longer believe that being morally right and righteous is good enough, if your ideals can be easily stymied and defeated by irrational actors on the other side. The Democrats need to fucking cult up like the GOP and vote together in lockstep. That's the only winning strategy that I see. Just keep fucking voting Democrat and stop letting the Overton window shift to the right. That's the issue. We've shifted so far to the right that basic, moderately-progressive policies are viewed as too extreme for a good portion of the non-GOP population. And that's a big goddamn problem. It's not something that's going to be solved in one big, sweeping movement. It's going to take time and it's going to take constant vigilance. The GOP never have to re-evaluate their strategy because they consistently win on a platform of doing nothing. Their voters reward that. If we beat them and proved that their voters don't matter as much, and that they need to fucking diversify their base, then made we can drag them kicking and screaming back towards the center. And once the other option is actually reasonable, maybe progressive policies will become more acceptable. Maybe minority groups won't have to worry every election whether their rights will be stripped away. --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953286255] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>ChaosTonyV4 posted... </cite> <quote>lmao whos arrogant? I dont believe my goals are possible without class solidarity, YOU think our supposedly shared goals arent happening because people like ME arent trying. Your genuine lack of respect for the Left has warped your view of politics where you both think its our fault AND we dont actually want to do things YOU say you want. Its absurd.</quote> I don't believe your goals are possible without accepting the fact that we exist under a two-party political system, and one party is a fucking doomsday cult that wants to wipe out any semblance of progressive thought before moving on to any semblance of moderate thought. And so long as one side will back their party in lock step, and the other side has to deal with in-fighting (and while I get annoyed at progressives for this on the board or on Twitter, when I'm with moderates in-person, I get just as frustrated when they complain about AOC, or Bernie, or free college tuition) that inevitably depresses voter turnout and leads to the cult taking power back. I just want everyone who is not Republican to fucking toe the line. Progressives, if you think we can do better than whatever minimum wage increase was on the table, oh well. Fucking go with the Democrats because it's still better than the GOP. Moderates, if you don't think it's fair that kids get free college tuition after you had to pay your way through college, oh well. Fucking go with the Democrats because it's still better than the GOP. I'm sorry, but whatever idealism I once had towards America died over the course of the 2016/2018/2020 elections. I no longer believe that being morally right and righteous is good enough, if your ideals can be easily stymied and defeated by irrational actors on the other side. The Democrats need to fucking cult up like the GOP and vote together in lockstep. That's the only winning strategy that I see. Just keep fucking voting Democrat and stop letting the Overton window shift to the right. That's the issue. We've shifted so far to the right that basic, moderately-progressive policies are viewed as too extreme for a good portion of the non-GOP population. And that's a big goddamn problem. It's not something that's going to be solved in one big, sweeping movement. It's going to take time and it's going to take constant vigilance. The GOP never have to re-evaluate their strategy because they consistently win on a platform of doing nothing. Their voters reward that. If we beat them and proved that their voters don't matter as much, and that they need to fucking diversify their base, then made we can drag them kicking and screaming back towards the center. And once the other option is actually reasonable, maybe progressive policies will become more acceptable. Maybe minority groups won't have to worry every election whether their rights will be stripped away. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 1:25:25 PM #73:	DoomTheGyarados posted... Btw during this argument several people have died due to not having Healthcare in America. But tell me more about Tony dooming this country. Tony shouldn't have to be responsible for saving America and being frustrated with people who let people die every day is pretty reasonable. Our country's healthcare system sucks. And yet the voters punish anyone who makes an effort to fix it. Hillary Clinton got demonized for attempting to make healthcare a priority as First Lady, and that led to thirty years of smearing and an eventual loss to Donald Fucking Trump. The Democrats burned every last drop of political capital they had in the wake of Obama's massive 2008 victory, to pass the ACA, and that led to a blowout loss of the House in 2010 and a decade of Republican legislative control. In 2016 and 2020, Bernie's biggest and most prominent policy was medicare for all, and voters just didn't turn out to vote for him. It fucking sucks. I get that. It really fucking sucks, especially for those of you who have a personal stake in the matter. I won't say 'us' because the closest I've had to an issue with our healthcare system is turning 26 and still being unable to find a stable job with a Masters' degree, which led to spiraling depression and fear about what I'd do without health insurance once I was pushed off my parents' plan. And that sucks. It's all fucking terrible, and healthcare SHOULD be a human right. But for whatever stupid and selfish reason, this country fights against the concept with every fiber of their collective being. And if the strategy isn't working, then SOMETHING needs to change to MAYBE gain some traction. It NEEDS to happen, because America fucking sucks and needs to be catered to in a very specific fashion because our population is stupid and self-centered. --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953286544] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>DoomTheGyarados posted... </cite> <quote>Btw during this argument several people have died due to not having Healthcare in America. But tell me more about Tony dooming this country. Tony shouldn't have to be responsible for saving America and being frustrated with people who let people die every day is pretty reasonable.</quote> Our country's healthcare system sucks. And yet the voters punish anyone who makes an effort to fix it. Hillary Clinton got demonized for attempting to make healthcare a priority as First Lady, and that led to thirty years of smearing and an eventual loss to Donald Fucking Trump. The Democrats burned every last drop of political capital they had in the wake of Obama's massive 2008 victory, to pass the ACA, and that led to a blowout loss of the House in 2010 and a decade of Republican legislative control. In 2016 and 2020, Bernie's biggest and most prominent policy was medicare for all, and voters just didn't turn out to vote for him. It fucking sucks. I get that. It really fucking sucks, especially for those of you who have a personal stake in the matter. I won't say 'us' because the closest I've had to an issue with our healthcare system is turning 26 and still being unable to find a stable job with a Masters' degree, which led to spiraling depression and fear about what I'd do without health insurance once I was pushed off my parents' plan. And that sucks. It's all fucking terrible, and healthcare SHOULD be a human right. But for whatever stupid and selfish reason, this country fights against the concept with every fiber of their collective being. And if the strategy isn't working, then SOMETHING needs to change to MAYBE gain some traction. It NEEDS to happen, because America fucking sucks and needs to be catered to in a very specific fashion because our population is stupid and self-centered. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leafeon13N 04/27/21 1:28:00 PM #74:	HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Red, what is your actual theory of change right now if you don't believe in pressuring those in power? The hell are you talking about? I never said dont pressure those in power here. <cite>Leafeon13N posted [p:953286641] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>Red, what is your actual theory of change right now if you don't believe in pressuring those in power?</quote>The hell are you talking about? I never said dont pressure those in power here. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
PrivateBiscuit1 04/27/21 1:31:44 PM #75:	Inviso posted... Our country's healthcare system sucks. And yet the voters punish anyone who makes an effort to fix it. Hillary Clinton got demonized for attempting to make healthcare a priority as First Lady, and that led to thirty years of smearing and an eventual loss to Donald Fucking Trump. lmao imagine championing Hillary Clinton for her healthcare policy and acting like she was unfairly smeared when she completely sold out to the healthcare corporations she previously tried to fight against. Hillary got smeared because she ended up having zero convictions that went outside her own interests. --- I stream sometimes. Check it out! www.twitch.tv/heroicbiz/ <cite>PrivateBiscuit1 posted [p:953286798] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>Our country's healthcare system sucks. And yet the voters punish anyone who makes an effort to fix it. Hillary Clinton got demonized for attempting to make healthcare a priority as First Lady, and that led to thirty years of smearing and an eventual loss to Donald Fucking Trump.</quote>lmao imagine championing Hillary Clinton for her healthcare policy and acting like she was unfairly smeared when she completely sold out to the healthcare corporations she previously tried to fight against. Hillary got smeared because she ended up having zero convictions that went outside her own interests. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 04/27/21 1:34:05 PM #76:	Inviso you're always arguing that Democrats need more electoral victories but manage to go on this weird tangent where it's only the fault of progressives that the normal dems lose. You consistently ascribe more power to the voters than the political party that has all the power and resources and fails at political strategy. You're never going to get anywhere arguing with Tony as long as you believe that because it is a fundamental disagreement. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:953286884] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso you're always arguing that Democrats need more electoral victories but manage to go on this weird tangent where it's only the fault of progressives that the normal dems lose. You consistently ascribe more power to the voters than the political party that has all the power and resources and fails at political strategy. You're never going to get anywhere arguing with Tony as long as you believe that because it is a fundamental disagreement. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 1:44:03 PM #77:	HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Inviso you're always arguing that Democrats need more electoral victories but manage to go on this weird tangent where it's only the fault of progressives that the normal dems lose. You consistently ascribe more power to the voters than the political party that has all the power and resources and fails at political strategy. You're never going to get anywhere arguing with Tony as long as you believe that because it is a fundamental disagreement. The initial comment that led to me making my post was that the GOP succeeds because they never worry about backlash. My response is that the GOP never worry about backlash because their voters will reward them no matter what they do, by virtue of being not-Democrats. If GOP voters punished their politicians for being fucking terrible at their jobs, perhaps the GOP wouldn't be in a position where they can maintain as much power as they do, consistently, by ignoring any potential backlash to their decisions. It's a fundamental difference in the make-up of the two parties' electorates, and you're right, I don't think Tony and I will ever see eye-to-eye on that fact. --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953287269] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>Inviso you're always arguing that Democrats need more electoral victories but manage to go on this weird tangent where it's only the fault of progressives that the normal dems lose. You consistently ascribe more power to the voters than the political party that has all the power and resources and fails at political strategy. You're never going to get anywhere arguing with Tony as long as you believe that because it is a fundamental disagreement.</quote> The initial comment that led to me making my post was that the GOP succeeds because they never worry about backlash. My response is that the GOP never worry about backlash because their voters will reward them no matter what they do, by virtue of being not-Democrats. If GOP voters punished their politicians for being fucking terrible at their jobs, perhaps the GOP wouldn't be in a position where they can maintain as much power as they do, consistently, by ignoring any potential backlash to their decisions. It's a fundamental difference in the make-up of the two parties' electorates, and you're right, I don't think Tony and I will ever see eye-to-eye on that fact. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 04/27/21 1:45:12 PM #78:	Leafeon13N posted... The hell are you talking about? I never said dont pressure those in power here. I meant for getting past Manchin since you seem to imply trying to push him around won't work but I might be applying your specific stance on him and the checks too broadly. My bad. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:953287306] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Leafeon13N posted... </cite> <quote>The hell are you talking about? I never said dont pressure those in power here.</quote> I meant for getting past Manchin since you seem to imply trying to push him around won't work but I might be applying your specific stance on him and the checks too broadly. My bad. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dancedreamer 04/27/21 1:46:31 PM #79:	Inviso posted... The initial comment that led to me making my post was that the GOP succeeds because they never worry about backlash. My response is that the GOP never worry about backlash because their voters will reward them no matter what they do, by virtue of being not-Democrats. If GOP voters punished their politicians for being fucking terrible at their jobs, perhaps the GOP wouldn't be in a position where they can maintain as much power as they do, consistently, by ignoring any potential backlash to their decisions. It's a fundamental difference in the make-up of the two parties' electorates, and you're right, I don't think Tony and I will ever see eye-to-eye on that fact. Did you ever think the GOP got the way it did because their voters don't punish their politicians for being bad at their jobs? --- This isn't funny Dean, the voice says I'm almost out of minutes! ~Alexandra <cite>Dancedreamer posted [p:953287351] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>The initial comment that led to me making my post was that the GOP succeeds because they never worry about backlash. My response is that the GOP never worry about backlash because their voters will reward them no matter what they do, by virtue of being not-Democrats. If GOP voters punished their politicians for being fucking terrible at their jobs, perhaps the GOP wouldn't be in a position where they can maintain as much power as they do, consistently, by ignoring any potential backlash to their decisions. It's a fundamental difference in the make-up of the two parties' electorates, and you're right, I don't think Tony and I will ever see eye-to-eye on that fact.</quote> Did you ever think the GOP got the way it did because their voters don't punish their politicians for being bad at their jobs? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 04/27/21 1:47:44 PM #80:	Inviso posted... The initial comment that led to me making my post was that the GOP succeeds because they never worry about backlash. My response is that the GOP never worry about backlash because their voters will reward them no matter what they do, by virtue of being not-Democrats. If GOP voters punished their politicians for being fucking terrible at their jobs, perhaps the GOP wouldn't be in a position where they can maintain as much power as they do, consistently, by ignoring any potential backlash to their decisions. It's a fundamental difference in the make-up of the two parties' electorates, and you're right, I don't think Tony and I will ever see eye-to-eye on that fact. Yeah but the REASON GOP voters stick together this way is that because the GOP has spent enormous time and money doing outreach and building political machinery and importantly having messages that WORK. Democrats do not have anything remotely on that level. Voter tendencies did not materialize out of nowhere and they are not immutable, you always act like there is nothing to be done about it. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:953287410] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Inviso posted... </cite> <quote>The initial comment that led to me making my post was that the GOP succeeds because they never worry about backlash. My response is that the GOP never worry about backlash because their voters will reward them no matter what they do, by virtue of being not-Democrats. If GOP voters punished their politicians for being fucking terrible at their jobs, perhaps the GOP wouldn't be in a position where they can maintain as much power as they do, consistently, by ignoring any potential backlash to their decisions. It's a fundamental difference in the make-up of the two parties' electorates, and you're right, I don't think Tony and I will ever see eye-to-eye on that fact.</quote> Yeah but the REASON GOP voters stick together this way is that because the GOP has spent enormous time and money doing outreach and building political machinery and importantly having messages that WORK. Democrats do not have anything remotely on that level. Voter tendencies did not materialize out of nowhere and they are not immutable, you always act like there is nothing to be done about it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leafeon13N 04/27/21 1:47:50 PM #81:	ChaosTonyV4 posted... Dude, lmao before you went mask off you were one of those people literally saying you supported everything Bernie stood for but didnt support him because you didnt think hed win! It has nothing to do with arrogance, you people keep saying time and again that you agree with Bernies ideals, but you dont support him, and then when he lost you go well maybe people didnt agree with him as much you thought you arrogant idiots! Rock did this too! Red did a form of this. This isnt some unique personal attack Im focusing on you, your kind are a very common type of Democrat. Wait I've never done this. My concern with Bernie not winning was that he had a poor campaign focus. Nothing to do with policy. He already had young voters in his pockets but it was rare that they made direct, focused inroads to the older population. And this had nothing to do with my personal feelings, it was just a big reason i noticed that he didn't make a lot of inroads from 2016 that he needed to win. The only thing i didn't support him for in 2020 was that I was really looking for a younger candidate because 2024 was also in the back of my mind. Its not like i was looking for a young moderate or anything either. <cite>Leafeon13N posted [p:953287414] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>ChaosTonyV4 posted... </cite> <quote> Dude, lmao before you went mask off you were one of those people literally saying you supported everything Bernie stood for but didnt support him because you didnt think hed win! It has nothing to do with arrogance, you people keep saying time and again that you agree with Bernies ideals, but you dont support him, and then when he lost you go well maybe people didnt agree with him as much you thought you arrogant idiots! Rock did this too! Red did a form of this. This isnt some unique personal attack Im focusing on you, your kind are a very common type of Democrat.</quote>Wait I've never done this. My concern with Bernie not winning was that he had a poor campaign focus. Nothing to do with policy. He already had young voters in his pockets but it was rare that they made direct, focused inroads to the older population. And this had nothing to do with my personal feelings, it was just a big reason i noticed that he didn't make a lot of inroads from 2016 that he needed to win. The only thing i didn't support him for in 2020 was that I was really looking for a younger candidate because 2024 was also in the back of my mind. Its not like i was looking for a young moderate or anything either. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leafeon13N 04/27/21 1:51:28 PM #82:	HeroDelTiempo17 posted... I meant for getting past Manchin since you seem to imply trying to push him around won't work but I might be applying your specific stance on him and the checks too broadly. My bad. Pressure the fuck out of him, hell pressure Dems to burn him to the fucking ground because hes a shitter. Just dont play with peoples lives over your blood feud. "Hurt people to show up Manchin" is where my line in the sand is drawn. <cite>Leafeon13N posted [p:953287542] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote> I meant for getting past Manchin since you seem to imply trying to push him around won't work but I might be applying your specific stance on him and the checks too broadly. My bad.</quote>Pressure the fuck out of him, hell pressure Dems to burn him to the fucking ground because hes a shitter. Just dont play with peoples lives over your blood feud. "Hurt people to show up Manchin" is where my line in the sand is drawn. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Espeon 04/27/21 1:55:10 PM #83:	Dancedreamer posted... Did you ever think the GOP got the way it did because their voters don't punish their politicians for being bad at their jobs? yes, thats exactly my point. --- Inviso's Most Adorabl-est Eeveelution Ever https://imgur.com/SSw6M9E <cite>Espeon posted [p:953287690] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Dancedreamer posted... </cite> <quote>Did you ever think the GOP got the way it did because their voters don't punish their politicians for being bad at their jobs?</quote> yes, thats exactly my point. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leafeon13N 04/27/21 1:57:25 PM #84:	Also in a broader sense i was equally annoyed at both wings of the Democratic party for the old guy thing. The best chance at not letting this new somehow even more racist Trump party win in 2024 is having a strong incumbent and betting on a couple dudes in their 80s to be good to go for a presidential campaign still doesn't sit well to me. <cite>Leafeon13N posted [p:953287772] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Also in a broader sense i was equally annoyed at both wings of the Democratic party for the old guy thing. The best chance at not letting this new somehow even more racist Trump party win in 2024 is having a strong incumbent and betting on a couple dudes in their 80s to be good to go for a presidential campaign still doesn't sit well to me. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 2:03:47 PM #85:	https://twitter.com/nycpddea/status/1386812200774508547?s=21 For some reason an NYPD detective got absolutely clobbered /s by a small stick by some random dude. I have no idea whats going on here, but the insinuation that emboldened criminals realize there are no consequences in our city is a pretty scary thing for the New York City Police Union to say. --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953287996] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>https://twitter.com/nycpddea/status/1386812200774508547?s=21 For some reason an NYPD detective got absolutely clobbered /s by a small stick by some random dude. I have no idea whats going on here, but the insinuation that emboldened criminals realize there are no consequences in our city is a pretty scary thing for the New York City Police Union to say. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Espeon 04/27/21 2:04:00 PM #86:	HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Yeah but the REASON GOP voters stick together this way is that because the GOP has spent enormous time and money doing outreach and building political machinery and importantly having messages that WORK. Democrats do not have anything remotely on that level. Voter tendencies did not materialize out of nowhere and they are not immutable, you always act like there is nothing to be done about it. Thats partly true, I will admit. But again, I think part of the problem goes back to the voters themselves. Republicans are susceptible to right-wing talk radio, FOX News, conspiracy theories, etc. There really isnt a Democratic equivalent to any of that. Left-wing talk radio doesnt inspire fanaticism, or even much of an audience. The same with MSNBC. As a result, the GOP has to do a lot less work campaigning (especially since regular wins give them the chance to further unbalance the board via state legislatures and the courts), and can focus their message down to Dems bad. Dems cant get away with that shit. --- Inviso's Most Adorabl-est Eeveelution Ever https://imgur.com/SSw6M9E <cite>Espeon posted [p:953288010] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>Yeah but the REASON GOP voters stick together this way is that because the GOP has spent enormous time and money doing outreach and building political machinery and importantly having messages that WORK. Democrats do not have anything remotely on that level. Voter tendencies did not materialize out of nowhere and they are not immutable, you always act like there is nothing to be done about it.</quote> Thats partly true, I will admit. But again, I think part of the problem goes back to the voters themselves. Republicans are susceptible to right-wing talk radio, FOX News, conspiracy theories, etc. There really isnt a Democratic equivalent to any of that. Left-wing talk radio doesnt inspire fanaticism, or even much of an audience. The same with MSNBC. As a result, the GOP has to do a lot less work campaigning (especially since regular wins give them the chance to further unbalance the board via state legislatures and the courts), and can focus their message down to Dems bad. Dems cant get away with that shit. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosTonyV4 04/27/21 2:05:32 PM #87:	Espeon posted... Thats partly true, I will admit. But again, I think part of the problem goes back to the voters themselves. Republicans are susceptible to right-wing talk radio, FOX News, conspiracy theories, etc. There really isnt a Democratic equivalent to any of that. Left-wing talk radio doesnt inspire fanaticism, or even much of an audience. The same with MSNBC. As a result, the GOP has to do a lot less work campaigning (especially since regular wins give them the chance to further unbalance the board via state legislatures and the courts), and can focus their message down to Dems bad. Dems cant get away with that s*. It absolutely exists, her name is Jen Psaki. --- Phantom Dust. "I'll just wait for time to prove me right again." - Vlado <cite>ChaosTonyV4 posted [p:953288061] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Espeon posted... </cite> <quote>Thats partly true, I will admit. But again, I think part of the problem goes back to the voters themselves. Republicans are susceptible to right-wing talk radio, FOX News, conspiracy theories, etc. There really isnt a Democratic equivalent to any of that. Left-wing talk radio doesnt inspire fanaticism, or even much of an audience. The same with MSNBC. As a result, the GOP has to do a lot less work campaigning (especially since regular wins give them the chance to further unbalance the board via state legislatures and the courts), and can focus their message down to Dems bad. Dems cant get away with that s*.</quote> It absolutely exists, her name is Jen Psaki. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Inviso 04/27/21 2:07:11 PM #88:	ChaosTonyV4 posted... It absolutely exists, her name is Jen Psaki. Jen Psaki inspires you to vote Democrat unequivocally? Shoot, get that woman on television more often! --- Touch fuzzy. Get fuzzier. Inviso <cite>Inviso posted [p:953288110] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>ChaosTonyV4 posted... </cite> <quote>It absolutely exists, her name is Jen Psaki.</quote> Jen Psaki inspires you to vote Democrat unequivocally? Shoot, get that woman on television more often! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 04/27/21 2:15:11 PM #89:	Espeon posted... Republicans are susceptible to right-wing talk radio, FOX News, conspiracy theories, etc. There really isnt a Democratic equivalent to any of that. Democratic voters are also susceptible to propaganda, but the Democrats are really bad at producing it. Espeon posted... As a result, the GOP has to do a lot less work campaigning (especially since regular wins give them the chance to further unbalance the board via state legislatures and the courts) You have a point about the structural problems but I also don't think the GOP is doing less work campaigning. I think they are legitimately better at it. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:953288365] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Espeon posted... </cite> <quote>Republicans are susceptible to right-wing talk radio, FOX News, conspiracy theories, etc. There really isnt a Democratic equivalent to any of that.</quote> Democratic voters are also susceptible to propaganda, but the Democrats are really bad at producing it. Espeon posted... </cite> <quote>As a result, the GOP has to do a lot less work campaigning (especially since regular wins give them the chance to further unbalance the board via state legislatures and the courts)</quote> You have a point about the structural problems but I also don't think the GOP is doing less work campaigning. I think they are legitimately better at it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HashtagSEP 04/27/21 2:17:59 PM #90:	ChaosTonyV4 posted... https://twitter.com/nycpddea/status/1386812200774508547?s=21 For some reason an NYPD detective got absolutely clobbered /s by a small stick by some random dude. I have no idea whats going on here, but the insinuation that emboldened criminals realize there are no consequences in our city is a pretty scary thing for the New York City Police Union to say. This is the most staged thing ever and I'm insulted that they didn't try to do a better job of making it not look like a middle school class project. Also I woke up with an ingrown toenail and I'm pretty sure it's because of you progressives and I heard we were blaming you today so --- #SEP #Awesome #Excellent #Greatness #SteveNash #VitaminWater #SmellingLikeTheVault #Pigeon #Sexy #ActuallyAVeryIntelligentVelociraptor #Heel #CoolSpot #EndOfSig <cite>HashtagSEP posted [p:953288455] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>ChaosTonyV4 posted... </cite> <quote>https://twitter.com/nycpddea/status/1386812200774508547?s=21 For some reason an NYPD detective got absolutely clobbered /s by a small stick by some random dude. I have no idea whats going on here, but the insinuation that emboldened criminals realize there are no consequences in our city is a pretty scary thing for the New York City Police Union to say.</quote> This is the most staged thing ever and I'm insulted that they didn't try to do a better job of making it not look like a middle school class project. Also I woke up with an ingrown toenail and I'm pretty sure it's because of you progressives and I heard we were blaming you today so </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Espeon 04/27/21 2:21:14 PM #91:	HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Democratic voters are also susceptible to propaganda, but the Democrats are really bad at producing it. You have a point about the structural problems but I also don't think the GOP is doing less work campaigning. I think they are legitimately better at it. Im referring to those psychological studies people did about the differences between Dems and Reps. GOP voters are more susceptible to fear-based and negative advertisements. And that benefits them because its much easier to tear someone else DOWN than to build yourself up. --- Inviso's Most Adorabl-est Eeveelution Ever https://imgur.com/SSw6M9E <cite>Espeon posted [p:953288570] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>Democratic voters are also susceptible to propaganda, but the Democrats are really bad at producing it. You have a point about the structural problems but I also don't think the GOP is doing less work campaigning. I think they are legitimately better at it.</quote> Im referring to those psychological studies people did about the differences between Dems and Reps. GOP voters are more susceptible to fear-based and negative advertisements. And that benefits them because its much easier to tear someone else DOWN than to build yourself up. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GuessMyUserName 04/27/21 2:22:27 PM #92:	oh my god that video can not be real ahahaha --- I request affiliated many pipes. Been a bad girl, I know I am. And I'm so hot, I need a fan. I don't want a boy, I need a man. <cite>GuessMyUserName posted [p:953288602] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>oh my god that video can not be real ahahaha </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
masterplum 04/27/21 2:26:57 PM #93:	#WhyWereTheyFilming --- https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdWiElvIQAAQpBt.jpg <cite>masterplum posted [p:953288755] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>#WhyWereTheyFilming </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leafeon13N 04/27/21 2:46:06 PM #94:	The big difference in cable news is that the typical left wing networks are ratings driven, fox news is message driven. CNN or whatever will happily burn the left if they think it'll drive ratings. Fox News will just a story about Hillary if they fear their message is threatened by a bigger story. <cite>Leafeon13N posted [p:953289441] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>The big difference in cable news is that the typical left wing networks are ratings driven, fox news is message driven. CNN or whatever will happily burn the left if they think it'll drive ratings. Fox News will just a story about Hillary if they fear their message is threatened by a bigger story. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
xp1337 04/27/21 2:52:43 PM #95:	Speaking of Fox News, what's going on over there right now... https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1386837979453399049 Tucker telling his audience to harass people who wear masks outside, and that if they see children wearing masks the response should be no different than if you saw a child being abused and you should "call the police immediately, contact child protective services." ...Honestly, my gut reaction to this beyond absolute disgust was that... could this actually pass by Fox's legal department? This feels like crossing a line even for them. ~~~ And speaking of the minimum wage: https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1387036879514607616 Biden has ordered that the minimum wage for all Americans under federal contract be raised to $15/hour and to have it be indexed to inflation going further. --- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? <cite>xp1337 posted [p:953289699] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>Speaking of Fox News, what's going on over there right now... https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1386837979453399049 Tucker telling his audience to harass people who wear masks outside, and that if they see children wearing masks the response should be no different than if you saw a child being abused and you should "call the police immediately, contact child protective services." ...Honestly, my gut reaction to this beyond absolute disgust was that... could this actually pass by Fox's legal department? This feels like crossing a line even for them. ~~~ And speaking of the minimum wage: https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1387036879514607616 Biden has ordered that the minimum wage for all Americans under federal contract be raised to $15/hour and to have it be indexed to inflation going further. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GuessMyUserName 04/27/21 2:58:21 PM #96:	holy fuck that absolutely has to be actionable good god --- I request affiliated many pipes. Been a bad girl, I know I am. And I'm so hot, I need a fan. I don't want a boy, I need a man. <cite>GuessMyUserName posted [p:953289884] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>holy fuck that absolutely has to be actionable good god </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
fuming 04/27/21 3:00:00 PM #97:	I don't think the narrative that the GOP doesn't have to try because its voters are fanatics is incorrect. Just look at some folks in this topic, they were typical GOP voters and voted for Biden. In addition, the progressives attempts at unseating the establishment Democrats has been much less successful and gotten much less traction than the Tea Party was able to shake up the GOP, leading eventually to not just the overthrow of many of the old neocon GOP politicians but culminating in a president, Trump, who defeated all the old guard like Jeb!, etc. Bernie, however, was unable to unseat the establishment Democrats and the Squad is very minor in influence compared to the Tea Party influx. The Greens always underperform the Libertarians, as well. If anything the information shows that Democratic voters are if anything more cult-like and in lock step in support of the establishment of their party than the GOP is. Look at the effect that the establishment coalescing around Biden after South Carolina had on voters. People got the message, and got in line. They wanted to win with team blue as a group, not to overthrow team blue like the GOP did with the Tea Party. <cite>fuming posted [p:953289949] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>I don't think the narrative that the GOP doesn't have to try because its voters are fanatics is incorrect. Just look at some folks in this topic, they were typical GOP voters and voted for Biden. In addition, the progressives attempts at unseating the establishment Democrats has been much less successful and gotten much less traction than the Tea Party was able to shake up the GOP, leading eventually to not just the overthrow of many of the old neocon GOP politicians but culminating in a president, Trump, who defeated all the old guard like Jeb!, etc. Bernie, however, was unable to unseat the establishment Democrats and the Squad is very minor in influence compared to the Tea Party influx. The Greens always underperform the Libertarians, as well. If anything the information shows that Democratic voters are if anything more cult-like and in lock step in support of the establishment of their party than the GOP is. Look at the effect that the establishment coalescing around Biden after South Carolina had on voters. People got the message, and got in line. They wanted to win with team blue as a group, not to overthrow team blue like the GOP did with the Tea Party. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leafeon13N 04/27/21 3:00:25 PM #98:	GuessMyUserName posted... holy fuck that absolutely has to be actionable good god Nope no one takes his show seriously not a real news show his viewers know hes being facetious so the courts cant do anything. <cite>Leafeon13N posted [p:953289965] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>GuessMyUserName posted... </cite> <quote>holy fuck that absolutely has to be actionable good god</quote>Nope no one takes his show seriously not a real news show his viewers know hes being facetious so the courts cant do anything. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GuessMyUserName 04/27/21 3:04:57 PM #99:	wild that defence actually worked despite Tucker saying on air that it's a news show and there's literally nothing promoting it otherwise --- I request affiliated many pipes. Been a bad girl, I know I am. And I'm so hot, I need a fan. I don't want a boy, I need a man. <cite>GuessMyUserName posted [p:953290138] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>wild that defence actually worked despite Tucker saying on air that it's a news show and there's literally nothing promoting it otherwise </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Peace___Frog 04/27/21 3:44:50 PM #100:	I feel like explicitly calling for violence, with the shades removed in this manner, surely can't even pass the "it's comedy" defense --- ~Peaf~ <cite>Peace___Frog posted [p:953291635] in Politics C... [t:79420969]...</cite> <quote>I feel like explicitly calling for violence, with the shades removed in this manner, surely can't even pass the "it's comedy" defense </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 372: Greene New Deal (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 372: Greene New Deal