Board 8 > MCU General 2: Hubcaptain America, Zemo and The Thunderbolts

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IfGodCouldDie
04/21/21 5:40:06 PM
#1:


Another General for the masses...

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bryans7
04/21/21 6:10:08 PM
#2:


Keep the Thunderbolts dream alive.

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BlackDra90n
04/21/21 6:20:32 PM
#3:


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UltimaterializerX
04/21/21 6:30:08 PM
#4:


You are now tracking this topic.

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Aecioo
04/21/21 7:57:42 PM
#5:


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UltimaterializerX
04/21/21 8:49:53 PM
#6:


Holy shit its Robert Redford. Also is the Asian counselor the same dude from The Dark Knight?

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UltimaterializerX
04/21/21 10:35:53 PM
#7:


Damn that movie was REALLY good.

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ChichiriMuyo
04/21/21 10:50:56 PM
#8:


Yeah, a lot of people hold up Winter Soldier as one of the best in the MCU, if not the best.

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ChichiriMuyo
04/21/21 10:55:53 PM
#9:


Oh, if you're watching them all in release order then GotG is next? What a pair of movies.

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Grand Kirby
04/21/21 11:06:19 PM
#10:


Love the comments on this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxkszitNWN8

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Pokalicious
04/21/21 11:13:02 PM
#11:


Tag

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Mr Lasastryke
04/22/21 4:21:53 AM
#12:


oh ya go my winter soldier

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UltimaterializerX
04/22/21 6:00:29 AM
#13:


ChichiriMuyo posted...
Oh, if you're watching them all in release order then GotG is next? What a pair of movies.
Yep.

I actually hated gotg when I watched it in theater but it grew on me a lot over the years.

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Waluigi1
04/22/21 6:05:27 PM
#14:


Taaag

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profDEADPOOL
04/22/21 6:37:06 PM
#15:


Tomorrow
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LeonhartFour
04/22/21 7:12:36 PM
#16:


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UltimaterializerX
04/22/21 9:34:17 PM
#17:


Quill is half celestial so why he needs to touch his friends at the end is still beyond me. Such a wonderful movie though, I cant believe there was a time I didnt like it

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BetrayedTangy
04/22/21 10:08:06 PM
#18:


UltimaterializerX posted...
Quill is half celestial so why he needs to touch his friends at the end is still beyond me. Such a wonderful movie though, I cant believe there was a time I didnt like it

His human side would've died instantly, so I think it's meant to serve as a middle ground.

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IfGodCouldDie
04/22/21 10:27:01 PM
#19:


Yea his human side was still very vulnerable to the stones power and his celestial side made sure he didn't disintegrate instantly.

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Aecioo
04/22/21 10:37:33 PM
#20:


Yeah I always took it as he was able to not immediately die because of his half celestial, but because he's half human he can't do it solo.

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IfGodCouldDie
04/23/21 12:25:41 AM
#21:


Question for everyone regarding the Dora Milaje, do you think Walker's interaction with them was supposed to make him seem like a racist? Specifically when he called their spears pointy sticks? My stance on the matter was that I could see why someone would assume that, but I felt it was just him being condescending because thats the direction he was being taken.

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MoogleKupo141
04/23/21 12:32:01 AM
#22:


he was just an asshole.

I dont think Walker is intended to be racist at all. Hes got enough issues already.
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Paratroopa1
04/23/21 12:58:11 AM
#23:


A random thought I had before the finale: It's interesting that the show has never suggested the idea of Bucky being then next Captain America, even though he would turn it down.

Obviously, that's not the way this story can go, just for the optics alone. Even if it made sense from the characters' perspectives to do this, we are not going to have a story about a black man giving up the role of Captain America to a white man, even if it's a white man who is qualified, deserving, and that we like very much. Isaiah Bradley presents the counter-argument for why Sam shouldn't be Captain America, but at the end of the day that is what this story is going to be. So yeah, Bucky can't be Captain America for this reason. And I presume that he doesn't want to be, anyway - it seems like he and Steve both discussed Sam being Steve's successor together, and that's what he's signed off on, so the job is Sam's.

But Bucky was the closest person to Steve, he's a super soldier who can easily wield the shield at its full potential, he's directionless in his life and wants to make amends, etc etc - there's a lot of reasons why he would be a good Captain America! I'm just surprised the story never even brings it up at all, if only to dismiss the possibility.
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profDEADPOOL
04/23/21 1:03:49 AM
#24:


I feel like there was an implicit dismissal of that happening when Steve gave the shield to Sam over Bucky. It doesn't need to be explicit imo.

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FFDragon
04/23/21 1:43:53 AM
#25:


Bucky would be a terrible Captain America.

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Paratroopa1
04/23/21 4:40:50 AM
#26:


Eh all right, sure, that was whatever. Didn't like it.
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Lightning Strikes
04/23/21 5:13:39 AM
#27:


Havent seen the finale yet so Ill get out of here but I just wanted to quickly address this:

IfGodCouldDie posted...
Question for everyone regarding the Dora Milaje, do you think Walker's interaction with them was supposed to make him seem like a racist? Specifically when he called their spears pointy sticks? My stance on the matter was that I could see why someone would assume that, but I felt it was just him being condescending because thats the direction he was being taken.

I think that it is deliberately meant to evoke racism, sexism, and xenophobia, but in a subtler way. Walkers main issue is people being above or equal to him specifically. As long as hes on top, he doesnt care. When people stand up to him or beat him, you get the hints of discrimination.

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ninkendo
04/23/21 5:26:26 AM
#28:


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IfGodCouldDie
04/23/21 5:52:42 AM
#29:


Lightning Strikes posted...
I think that it is deliberately meant to evoke racism, sexism, and xenophobia, but in a subtler way. Walkers main issue is people being above or equal to him specifically. As long as hes on top, he doesnt care. When people stand up to him or beat him, you get the hints of discrimination.
I think that's a fair insight to the scene.

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MoogleKupo141
04/23/21 5:55:40 AM
#30:


rip Batroc ;_;
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bryans7
04/23/21 7:55:11 AM
#31:


MoogleKupo141 posted...
rip Batroc ;_;

We can never have anything beautiful.

I should have realized Sharon would be the Power Broker since the episode she comes back is called 'Power Broker'.

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tcaz2
04/23/21 12:46:45 PM
#32:


So can we all agree that Karli was the worst part of the show by a long shot?

Because my god I did not care about her from beginning til end. They tried to make her death be sad and its just like, ooooh no the crazy zealot murderer died welp. At least we got a pretty good scene out of it afterward, though.
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RikkuAlmighty
04/23/21 12:50:36 PM
#33:


tcaz2 posted...
So can we all agree that Karli was the worst part of the show by a long shot?

Because my god I did not care about her from beginning til end. They tried to make her death be sad and its just like, ooooh no the crazy zealot murderer died welp. At least we got a pretty good scene out of it afterward, though.
Hear, hear.

Solid final episode. The show was good all the way through but yeah, Karli was just bad. But we can't expect everything to be Wandavision good, and if Falcon/WS is the more average baseline, it's pretty good eatin' for superhero fans

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GuessMyUserName
04/23/21 1:48:27 PM
#34:


I agree that Karli sucked but Captain Falcon carrying her body felt more like it was for the sympathizers watching in-universe than for us.

ps lol captain falcon

Honestly I can't really say if I liked WV more than this, I feel WV had further highs and lows but F&WS was a very consistent, solid show.

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Not_an_Owl
04/23/21 2:24:31 PM
#35:


Final thoughts: Man, what an uneven show. The action sequences are great, the quipping is well-done, the idea of the plot is interesting. What really lets it all down is the writing and characterization - they clearly wanted to make a morally gray show where every character is easy to both sympathize and disagree with, but the problem is the writing had absolutely no subtlety to it at all.

Sam sympathizes with the Flag Smashers' ideals but disagrees with their methods, and in his every attempt to talk Karli down he just looks hopelessly naive. His idealism sort of pays off when he dresses down the GRC folks at the end, but his entire speech felt more like it was written to be read and not heard, if that makes sense - some of the word choice just feels awkward.

Walker spends the first four episodes motivated solely by his own pride and insecurity, then abruptly left-turns in the final two to being driven by revenge, except in the last few sequences he somehow puts aside his pride and doesn't even challenge Sam becoming Captain America? That strikes me as out of character given as recently as episode 5 he was still insisting that he was Captain America.

Karli oscillates wildly between "idealistic wooby freedom fighter who's in way over her head" to "bloodthirsty murderous terrorist" with absolutely no middle ground. Her apparent schizophrenia makes Sam's attempts to talk her down look completely ridiculous. It's a shame, because I thought her actress did a good job emoting with her face and driving home the inner feelings of the character, from wide-eyed anxiety to steely determination. Really for her plotline and characterization to make sense the show needed another episode or two showing how the GRC was hurting the refugee communities, rather than just saying "GRC bad".

Honestly the only two characters the show handled well were Bucky and Isiah. Both had relatable, understandable arcs and meaningful character development, though a lot of the Isiah scenes suffered from the show's overall lack of subtlety. I applaud Marvel for being willing to tackle race issues in America in such a straightforward manner, but the writing had all the nuance of a brick to the head. All too often it felt like what should have been subtext was just made into text, and the final result felt clumsy.

Overall the show gets a 6/10 from me, probably won't rewatch anytime soon but don't regret the time I spent on it.

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Pokalicious
04/23/21 2:32:31 PM
#36:


Not_an_Owl posted...
Honestly the only two characters the show handled well were Bucky and Isiah.
I liked Bucky and Zemo the best.

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Not_an_Owl
04/23/21 2:35:59 PM
#37:


Yeah I remembered Zemo right after I hit Post. Zemo was a delight.

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tcaz2
04/23/21 4:30:08 PM
#38:


I thought it was great how they handled the Walker situation and that it was clear he had an internal conflict between revenge vs being a hero with both sides fueled by his inferiority complex he developed trying to live up to being Captain America.

Most of it wasn't stated outright but it was a good bit of 'show, don't tell' that was pretty obvious IMO.
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GuessMyUserName
04/23/21 4:52:16 PM
#39:


Walker choosing to be a hero instead of continuing to take every selfish option available was great. Yes he's not fit to be Captain America, but that's the kind of hero he wishes he could be, and I'm glad he didn't succumb to his desire for vengeance this time.

Plus this wasn't a visceral heat of the moment situation immediately following the death of his partner, he *should* be less susceptible to his rage here.

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XIII_rocks
04/23/21 5:00:37 PM
#40:


Good show, Wandavision was better

Sam's speech was fine and well-intentioned but went on too long and became repetitive

Good action. Like the suit
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UltimaterializerX
04/23/21 5:08:27 PM
#41:


BetrayedTangy posted...
His human side would've died instantly, so I think it's meant to serve as a middle ground.

IfGodCouldDie posted...
Yea his human side was still very vulnerable to the stones power and his celestial side made sure he didn't disintegrate instantly.

Aecioo posted...
Yeah I always took it as he was able to not immediately die because of his half celestial, but because he's half human he can't do it solo.
Right, but why does his friends touching him matter?

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Aecioo
04/23/21 5:12:47 PM
#42:


The Collector earlier in the film explained how if an individual wasn't strong enough they would group together to spread its power enough through them

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Paratroopa1
04/23/21 5:16:07 PM
#43:


Yeah, slept on it, I just didn't really feel anything for this show at all aside from Bucky and Isaiah Bradley who I really liked. Karli Morgenthau was a character who I WANTED to like, I actually liked her acting, but the script had absolutely no idea what to do with her. John Walker is kind of an interesting character, I guess, but I didn't really feel anything for him in the end (and what was with the scenes with him and his wife and that one random character whose name I don't remember?). I honestly just don't like Zemo like everyone else seems to.

Sam's speech at the end, honest to god, you could supercut it with one of the rants from the end of a Neil Breen film and I don't know if I'd be able to tell the difference. I found it honestly kind of laughable. I feel like the feel-good optimism of the superhero narrative falls apart when it gets too close to real-world politics - the whole thing just felt so laughably neoliberal to me in its breathless naivete (although, arguably, the moral of the story is that the threat of violence against politicians actually works in achieving goals, but I DON'T think that's what they intended). I feel like this whole story got off too easy by just having Sam make a nice speech that mostly fixed everything - it set up a really complicated problem and offered a simple solution and I just don't feel satisfied with it.

So I dunno. Didn't really like most of the characters or the writing. The best episodes were the first two and the fifth and its slower, character driven stuff. I DO really like the central tension of Sam's reluctance to take up the mantle of Captain America and how his race ties into that, and I think the show makes some astute observations and handles the issue with some degree of subtlety even if it has to get less subtle towards the end to make sure you got the message. But even in the first episode alone I was picking up on the idea of Sam's internal conflict of being a black Captain America and I think they handled it pretty well up through and including that first Isaiah Bradley scene.

But yeah, I don't know, I feel like the whole thing built up to a boring anticlimax where they didn't really know how to fix any of the problems and they didn't even know what they were TRYING to do with the Flag Smashers and they just kind of ended up with mealy-mouthed platitudes at the end.

Wandavision ranks as my #2 favorite MCU thing behind Endgame - this is probably a bottom 5 MCU thing for me. So, the Disney+ miniseries have been an interesting mixed bag so far! I look forward to Loki being right smack dab in the middle. That said, I didn't think Falcon and the Winter Soldier was a complete waste of my time or anything, it was a worthwhile watch.
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GranzonEx
04/23/21 5:50:09 PM
#44:


I didn't care for Karli because no matter how you slice it she was in the wrong.

People shouldn't lose all their stuff because they got snapped and then reverse snapped. The people that was spared the snap is not entitled to anything, even if they were homeless before the snap.

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bryans7
04/23/21 6:01:57 PM
#45:


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Waluigi1
04/23/21 6:08:14 PM
#46:


It was alright. The action was great.

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HanOfTheNekos
04/23/21 7:44:53 PM
#47:


With two miniseries down, I think the running trend so far is 'missed potential'. FAWS was more consistent, but writing let down a few characters (perhaps an extra episode or two would have helped). WV wasn't completely sure what its overarching plan was. I don't know if I could pick one over the other - I suppose FAWS was less disappointing but provided

If all shows are like this, then it'll be fine because it's just typical Marvel fare, but one hopes they'll learn and improve. Loki looks really promising, so hopefully it breaks the mold. I'm not sure they'll ever get to a high like what DD was, but it'd be nice if they pushed for something like that.

Alternatively, they just really need to explode these shows and keep them all interconnected. I can deal with a lot of standard shows if they provide a fun overarching canon to explore.

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RyoCaliente
04/23/21 7:48:20 PM
#48:


Man, Daredevil is so underrated imo. The first season was good and nothing more. Season two was boring and season three was just a rethread of season one.

I liked the action in this episode. I wanna forget everything that happened between the French dude shooting down smoke grenades and Sam landing in front of the senators because it was Bad ("you remind me of myself when I was younger" ughhhhhhhhhhhhh). Sam's speech was solid but did go on too long. Actually curious what they'll do with Walker considering he seemed to make a good turn at the end but seems to be in the employ of bad people.

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Leonhart4
04/23/21 7:49:17 PM
#49:


I have high hopes for Loki, but that might be just because I love Tom Hiddleston.

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HanOfTheNekos
04/23/21 7:50:13 PM
#50:


Season 1 of DD is probably the best quality of an MCU thing next to Winter Soldier.

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