Poll of the Day > The debate on "offensive" computing terms

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html

Now the organization is tackling an even thornier issue: getting rid of computer engineering terms that evoke racist history, like master and slave and whitelist and blacklist.

I can see how certain terms may evoke the history of the nomenclature.

terms like Whitelist and Blacklist, what will they change next things like "White Magic" and "Black Magic" for gaming?

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Master and Slave is not offensive. The term describes exactly what the device does; the Master gives the commands and the Slave follows. If you think it is offensive, you had better talk with the large group of people with certain sexual fetishes next.

I also see no problem with whitelist or blacklist.

People need to grow up and stop seeing offence in everything.

Ho boy, my workplace had a whole talk about this a few weeks ago lmao

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All of those terms were used this semester in my school lol

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wtf? NYT just gets stupider and stupider. Instead of paywalling, they need a real wall around their site so nobody reads that garbage.


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joemodda posted...

Ho boy, my workplace had a whole talk about this a few weeks ago lmao

so did mine, and we have a very diverse LGBTQ, ethnic development team and they basically said they would rather keep the terminology the same and felt it was over sensitive for no reason.

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Dmess85 posted...

for no reason.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. They're probably manufacturing this "controversy" for profit and to make themselves feel more important. Those are reasons. They're not very good reasons, but they're reasons. XD

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oh god that "debate" is only debatable if you're an absolute lunatic with zero knowledge about world history

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master slave relations existed before human cultivars existed

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Lokarin posted...

master slave relations existed before human cultivars existed

no no it's completely blm related, you qanon

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This is ridiculous, those words aren't offensive in and of themselves. Context of the words matter more than the words themselves

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Yep, stuff like this is why Im waiting for the day they demand that the name of Boba Fetts ship be changed.

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(edit: lol I guess gamefaqs doesn't have the female emoji supported)

We moved our code over to use allowlist/exceptionlist, and primary/replica instead of some places we had master/replica.

Not a big deal.

I don't really think that makes much of an impact on anything, but we also did this when BLM was very prominent along with education seminars (with professional third parties trained to lead them), a bunch of donation and donation matching, and encouraging people to take time off to protest if they wanted to. So there was that too.

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kukukupo posted...

Master and Slave is not offensive. The term describes exactly what the device does; the Master gives the commands and the Slave follows. If you think it is offensive, you had better talk with the large group of people with certain sexual fetishes next.

this dude is just walking around part of society with this stupid shit just floating around up in his head

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Zeus posted...

wtf? NYT just gets stupider and stupider. Instead of paywalling, they need a real wall around their site so nobody reads that garbage.

Because they're reporting on something an unrelated group is doing?
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The more you pander to the crazies (on either extreme), the more they are emboldened to push for ever more radical bs.

Nothing wrong w/ the "master and slave" terminology in computing, it's an accurate description of the devices. It has nothing to do w/ people.

...I'm actually surprised the woke crowd hasn't gone after BDSM groups/media...

streamofthesky posted...

...I'm actually surprised the woke crowd hasn't gone after BDSM groups/media...

of course someone with such a tenuous grasp of the situation would be confused at nuance

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agesboy posted...

of course someone with such a tenuous grasp of the situation would be confused at nuance

of course someone with such a tenuous grasp of history would buy into the NYT's argument

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I know this isn't quite related to computing, but I remember getting banned from a Pokmon Discord server for talking about HM slaves (aka a Pokmon whose only purpose is to have HM moves for story progression). That particular moderator argued that the term "slave" was offensive, while I argued it wasn't because it's been a fanon term for decades.

The point I'm trying to make is that people are getting too soft.

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MegaBlastoise15 posted...

The point I'm trying to make is that people are getting too soft.

Yeah you do sound pretty wound up over words

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MegaBlastoise15 posted...

I know this isn't quite related to computing, but I remember getting banned from a Pokmon Discord server for talking about HM slaves (aka a Pokmon whose only purpose is to have HM moves for story progression). That particular moderator argued that the term "slave" was offensive, while I argued it wasn't because it's been a fanon term for decades.

The point I'm trying to make is that people are getting too soft.

Trying to change a word that I use to describe an aspect of a childrens video game is TOO MUCH WORK

by the way people are just too weak nowadays

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How long before SW is racist for having Jedi Masters?

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the word master by itself is not bad, it's when it's paired with slave that it evokes specifically... well... slavery

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Muscles posted...

How long before SW is racist for having Jedi Masters?

nobody said terms are racist they are just saying maybe they can think about using other terms in the workplace

stop overreacting so damn much

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I put about 5 seconds of thought into that and no emotional investment. I'm pretty sure my reaction was very tame.

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Muscles posted...

I put about 5 seconds of thought into that and no emotional investment. I'm pretty sure my reaction was very tame.

well it was fucking stupid and makes you seem childish

no one is saying you cant use the words. But there is a real issue historically with language surrounding the word white being portrayed as positive and the word black being associated with negative and undesirable things.

Even if you dont agree, seeing language like that regularly used in the workplace can make some people feel shitty and build resentment. Words like master and slave have their own unique definitions but when youre using them regularly in the US in the workplace you can see how some people might start to feel uneasy about them given our countrys history.

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agesboy posted...

the word master by itself is not bad, it's when it's paired with slave that it evokes specifically... well... slavery

I didn't realize modern houses had "slave rooms"
And yet, the campaign to change the name from "master bedroom" persists.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-real-estate-industry-may-finally-be-abandoning-master-bedrooms-after-years-of-discussion-2020-08-05

To many, the phrase master bedroom is associated with slavery and evokes imagery of violence against people of color.
Its a repetitive reminder of slavery and plantations, Donnell Williams, president of the National Association of Real Estate Brokers, said. I dont feel that its proper, and Im glad someone brought it up.
The origins of the phrase do not appear to come from the era of slavery. In fact, the term was first used in 1925, according to Merriam-Webster. Real-estate brokerage Trelora meanwhile cites the earliest known reference to a master bedroom as appearing in a 1926 Sears advertisement for a pre-fabricated home.
Back in 1995, under the Clinton administration, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development ruled that use of the term master bedroom was not considered discriminatory under the Fair Housing Act.
And some peoples objections to the phrase dont stem from concerns about its racial implications. One definition of the word master is a male head of household, according to Merriam-Webster. Based on the discussion that took place, more members viewed the terms as sexist than racist, although some did view them as racist, the Houston Association of Realtors noted in discussion of the name change. Others didnt personally view them as sexist or racist but believed we should change the terms for anyone else who might find them objectionable. The consensus was that Primary describes the rooms equally as well as Master while avoiding any possible misperceptions.

A lot of this shit has no basis in actual history or facts, and is just about being easily "triggered" by even the slightest perceived (not actual) micro aggression.

I thought "master/slave" was replaced by "primary/secondary" years ago in computers anyway. It's hardly new.

The master bedroom thing is something I've heard more recently though and I often see "primary bedroom" when seeing real estate listings.

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if an industry wants to avoid misunderstandings by changing a term to something harmless after years of discussion, let them

stop being offended by this

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Mead posted...

But there is a real issue historically with language surrounding the word white being portrayed as positive and the word black being associated with negative and undesirable things.

I don't see an issue with that, black is associated with negative things because of our fear of the dark. Black was an "evil" color before the concept of race

Hell white people are tan and black people are brown so equating the symbolism of white/black as good/bad with white people/black people being good/bad is just stupid

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Dmess85 posted...

so did mine, and we have a very diverse LGBTQ, ethnic development team and they basically said they would rather keep the terminology the same and felt it was over sensitive for no reason.

which is okay

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Muscles posted...

I don't see an issue with that

you dont say?!

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I'm not sure why anyone would think the symbolism of white=good/black=bad has anything to do race.

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Muscles posted...

I'm not sure why anyone would think the symbolism of white=good/black=bad has anything to do race.

well I guess nobody ever bothered to teach you any American history

or you refused to learn

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I'm not sure what that has to do with American history, those associations were around before America, or even the idea of race

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and connotations evolve, just like language does

nothing in culture or language are static

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Muscles posted...

I'm not sure what that has to do with American history, those associations were around before America, or even the idea of race

youre just embracing willful ignorance at this point

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agesboy posted...

the word master by itself is not bad, it's when it's paired with slave that it evokes specifically... well... slavery

this is how i feel about it too, personally. i really don't want to use master/slave or whitelist/blacklist and im glad people are moving away from them.

'master' in the context of a git master branch never bothered me because the other branches aren't really like 'slaves' at all. but I'm fine moving to main anyway -- master might bother other people and main is a better name anyways

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Whitelist/blacklist I could maybe see, but I'm not really convinced. But master/slave, no, it describes the dynamic between two devices.

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i mean, can you not maybe see why using that terminology would make someone uncomfortable

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papercup posted...

But master/slave, no, it describes the dynamic between two devices.

far from the only words that could be used though, and for obvious reasons slavery is reviled in our country

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We'll change the terminology to.

Daddy

and

Little ButtBoy

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ReturnOfFa posted...

We'll change the terminology to.

Daddy

and

Little ButtBoy

ive been saying for years we should call them dom and sub

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PunishedOni posted...

ive been saying for years we should call them dom and sub

like dominatrix and submissive?

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Dmess85 posted...

like dominatrix and submissive?

yea

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Mead posted...

youre just embracing willful ignorance at this point

I know what you are saying, I think it's just silly. Like if the racist meaning for those words were around 1st I could see why it would be an issue but people have been associating black with evil and white with good for a long ass time and had nothing to do with race

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Muscles posted...

people have been associating black with evil and white with good for a long ass time and had nothing to do with race

arguable, but you cant act like the last 500 years or so simply didnt happen

it isnt a big deal to just encourage people to change the terms they use a little bit

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conservative arguments to this kind of thing always boil down to "oh yeah? well im unable to learn new words. checkmate liberals"

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Mead posted...

arguable, but you cant act like the last 500 years or so simply didnt happen

it isnt a big deal to just encourage people to change the terms they use a little bit

If someone adds a racial connotation to it then yeah, I agree that it's wrong, but don't tell me that you can't tell the difference between the 2 based on the context

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Zachnorn posted...

I thought "master/slave" was replaced by "primary/secondary" years ago in computers anyway. It's hardly new.

No, because primary and secondary are already a thing. There can be primary slave and secondary master. Conversation would take about 300 times longer than necessary once it starts to mimic some Abbott and Costello skit.