Board 8 > Avatar vs. The Force Awakens: Which movie has aged worse?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I go with Star Wars here. If it wasn't for lingering prequel hate I think TFA would be even more condemned than it already is.

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Avatar because it actually seemed good when it came out.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

I go with Star Wars here.

Shocking

The only things that have aged worse than Avatar are LMS Star Wars topics

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trdl23 posted...

Avatar because it actually seemed good when it came out.

exactly this
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TFA was fine when it came out and is still fine now. Certain people are just starting to retroactively hate it because Disney fucked up the rest of the trilogy.

TFA could have been a flawed, but perfectly serviceable start to a great trilogy. That we didnt get that is not the fault of the first movie.

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Even Black Turtle has more gimmicks than LMS.

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Are all those Avatar sequels still coming out?

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redrocket posted...

TFA was fine when it came out and is still fine now. Certain people are just starting to retroactively hate it because Disney fucked up the rest of the trilogy.

TFA could have been a flawed, but perfectly serviceable start to a great trilogy. That we didnt get that is not the fault of the first movie.

I've seen the phrase in a lot of contexts now. "perfectly serviceable" means nothing more than "not outright repulsive"
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redrocket posted...

TFA was fine when it came out and is still fine now. Certain people are just starting to retroactively hate it because Disney fucked up the rest of the trilogy.

TFA could have been a flawed, but perfectly serviceable start to a great trilogy. That we didnt get that is not the fault of the first movie.

I'm not even necessarily sure if it's that. I think there were lots of people who hated the sequel trilogy from day one and they only really started to become noticeable when TLJ came out. I also asked the question more in terms of how both these movies were huge events when they came out that people don't really talk about anymore.

Even then, much of the reason TFA was so big at the time was because it was the first live-action theatrical Star Wars film since the much-mocked prequel trilogy. In a time where Star Wars has become just another Disney cash cow it's a little difficult for TFA to have much of an identity.

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NFUN posted...

I've seen the phrase in a lot of contexts now. "perfectly serviceable" means nothing more than "not outright repulsive"

No

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i don't think either movie has aged badly, actually. i didn't like avatar when it came out either, so i don't think "it's aged badly" is necessarily its problem.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...
I also asked the question more in terms of how both these movies were huge events when they came out that people don't really talk about anymore.

Well, think about it like this. A big part of the reason people arent talking about TFA is because its been overshadowed by all the drama related to its sequels. Avatar doesnt have all that baggage, and yet people have still forgotten it.

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redrocket posted...

TFA was fine when it came out and is still fine now. Certain people are just starting to retroactively hate it because Disney fucked up the rest of the trilogy.

TFA could have been a flawed, but perfectly serviceable start to a great trilogy. That we didnt get that is not the fault of the first movie.

When talking in terms of whether something has aged well, I think the fate of the trilogy is absolutely relevant.

People gave TFA a lot of passes on mediocrity because "it's setting up for something good" and so the fact that it didn't actually set up for anything worth watching is important. What makes it worse in TFA's case is that the trilogy hardly even has continuity because of changing directors wanting to do their own thing-- you can pretty much just watch TLJ and Skywalker as standalone movies with TFA being completely irrelevant at this point.

There are hundreds of thousands of movies in existence at this point. TFA doesn't really do much particularly wrong but it doesn't really do much right either. The answer at one point to "why would you bother to watch watch TFA?" was "so we'd be able to watch the later films in the trilogy and be able to follow them" and now that you know you're leading into two bad movies there's pretty much no reason to watch it, because you shouldn't watch any of them.

It's not offensive but you should have higher standards for watching movies than that.

So in many regards it has absolutely aged poorly. I'd definitely call Avatar the film that's more worth watching these days.

(The only other reason it's worth watching is as a conversation piece, but it's lost a lot of appeal there too because the sequels didn't deliver and outright wiped out a lot of the pieces that TFA set up-- Avatar has it beat in that regard at that point as well)

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trdl23 posted...

Avatar because it actually seemed good when it came out.

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The hype around Avatar was how good it looked in 3D. Of course it was going to age poorly.

The sequels made TFA a joke, but it still has the aesthetics of Star Wars, which is the most important part of Star Wars. I say TFA wins easily.

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It's crazy how Disney World/Disneyland's best attraction is based on Avatar, and really, a huge portion of the park...and it still hasn't got a sequel yet.

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It hasn't gotten a sequel because James Cameron does whatever he wants. Including going and ruining his own Terminator series in the meantime.

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So you have officially gone from being unhealthily obsessed with Other M to Sequel Trilogy huh. Good to know.

I'm mostly just amazed at the intensity of the backlash towards it. Considering the similar uproar over the 2020 election, by this point there's a greater likelihood that anyone who hates TLJ is a bigot than there is that anyone who likes it is an SJW, unless anyone who isn't a bigot or anti-progressive is automatically an SJW.

I don't think Rey is a good character, but I'd still say labelling her a Mary Sue is kind of sexist just because of how much she doesn't fit the original definition. People just use that term to refer to any heroine they don't like nowadays. It would be more accurate to call Bella from Twilight a Mary Sue. Anyway Rey completely fails at everything she sets out to accomplish in TLJ yet she's still a Mary Sue. Because...she's strong with the Force for "no reason", in a setting where lots of people have magical powers without explanation? What is this?

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Considering the similar uproar over the 2020 election, by this point there's a greater likelihood that anyone who hates TLJ is a bigot than there is that anyone who likes it is an SJW, unless anyone who isn't a bigot or anti-progressive is automatically an SJW.

Sometimes I think you're some sort of advanced AI that madlibs his way through posts about certain topics by filling in the blanks with charged buzzwords

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Lopen posted...

Sometimes I think you're some sort of advanced AI that madlibs his way through posts about certain topics by filling in the blanks with charged buzzwords

If by "advanced AI" you mean "circa 2004 chatbot"
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Oh heavens no. You must be thinking of the Full Throttle Bot.

Circa 2004 Chatbots are far too responsive to those who engage them. This is something far more than that. Threading the fine line between non-sequitur and relevant discussion, the LMS bot (if he is indeed AI) is a true marvel of modern engineering that keeps us guessing.

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Lopen posted...

Oh heavens no. You must be thinking of the Full Throttle Bot.

Circa 2004 Chatbots are far too responsive to those who engage them. This is something far more than that. Threading the fine line between non-sequitur and relevant discussion, the LMS bot (if he is indeed AI) is a true marvel of modern engineering that keeps us guessing.

I buy it. So he's either a version of GPT that's just nearly reached sentience, or a chatbot from 1997 programmed by a freshman computer science student. Wouldn't be surprised if it was either

anyway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUbp68V3mhM
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Thank god you guys don't buy into the political crap!

I personally didn't even know TFA got considerable amounts of hate until I started frequenting anti-progressive circles. Ugh.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Thank god you guys don't buy into the political crap!

I personally didn't even know TFA got considerable amounts of hate until I started frequenting anti-progressive circles. Ugh.

You know you could just...

...stop frequenting those circles.


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I kinda agree to LMS's point. Politics has really become kinda 1:1 to pop culture, including Star Wars but also including a whole lot of other things too. It's really easy to sorta divide things on political lines and Youtube Video Essays are encouraged to buy into those things to get more clicks and, thus, more money.

I do, however, think it's funny that LMS recognizes all of this and yet continues to perpetuate this viewpoint.

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redrocket posted...

You know you could just...

...stop frequenting those circles.

yes, stop that

anyway, I was kind of taken in by Avatar when I first watched it, but it really doesn't seem so great anymore.

Also yeah visuals were supposedly the big selling point at the time so that's going to age poorly
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i remember arguing with realo about avatar when it had just come out. realo claimed that in the future, avatar would be regarded as one of the greatest movies of all time, in the same league as citizen kane. i said that that could never happen because unlike citizen kane, avatar's main appeal was its visuals and that appeal was going to wear off in some years.

as usual, lasa was right

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Both were very pretty when they came out and also very dull imo. While I believe Lopen has great points, TFA wasn't good to begin with either and has problems of its own. I think Avatar has aged worse because I ultimately don't believe that even if TFA had good and continuous sequels, it'd excuse it. It's just that we were more focused on being hyped and coming up with theories at the time than look at its glaring flaws.

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I guess I see Avatar being regarded as a notable movie in the future, even if "in the same league as citizen kane" is completely ridiculous the effects were revolutionary for the time and it left quite a footprint on pop culture for a while, so it'll still be something to watch in a historical sense. Also even if the plot isn't anything new, the setting is at least an original setting rather than part of dozens of movie franchise.

TFA on the other hand will be more and more of a footnote the further we get away from Rise of Skywalker. The plot being hugely derivative of A New Hope will pretty much kill any lasting appeal that wasn't already extinguished by the director power struggles and disappointment.

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yeah, i'm not saying avatar is not a notable movie, i just didn't agree with realo's line of reasoning. it's more like mlis's la voyage dans la lune (i also brought up that example in the debate at the time) than citizen kane. it's an important movie and an amazing technical achievement but it doesn't belong in a "greatest movies of all time" conversation.

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Yeah not saying you weren't just wanted to elaborate on why I think history will show Avatar as the "better aged" of the two and your post kinda brought up a future perspective thing that I think matters.

I guess at this point I'm partially arguing "will age worse" than "has aged worse" though. Once LMS moves onto another topic then you know Ep 7-9 talk is long enough dead that it's definitely a matter of has than will.

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TFA is still good if you ignore the sequels. Yeah it was made better by speculating on theories and such but even without that, it has everything you want from Star Wars. It's just a good mix of formula, old characters, and twists.

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Avatar was a mess and TFA was flawed but good. They haven't aged much.

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XIII_rocks posted...

yes, stop that

anyway, I was kind of taken in by Avatar when I first watched it, but it really doesn't seem so great anymore.

Also yeah visuals were supposedly the big selling point at the time so that's going to age poorly

I cancelled my YT subscription to Midnight's Edge a while back for precisely that reason. I only watch those kinds of videos whenever they pop up on my suggested feed, and more often than not I barely make it a few minutes in before I just turn them off.

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you could just not watch them at all

maybe do something else in general other than watch YouTube videos about movies
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In any case, I've decided that the people who viciously hate on the sequel trilogy are the equivalent of the "stop having fun" guys in gaming.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

In any case, I've decided that the people who viciously hate on the sequel trilogy are the equivalent of the "stop having fun" guys in gaming.

The utter lack of self-awareness in this post is staggering

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Well maybe he is proudly a stop having fun guy

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Well he says "the people" as if he is not among their number but perhaps he's turned the corner!

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Who wouldn't want to be a man of "the people" though, right?

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Can ANYONE name a single character from the movie Avatar?

https://youtu.be/kxp1IBK1OPI?t=6

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there's jake

and uh...

zoe saldana

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To be fair I can't name any characters in a lot of single entry movies, and of those I can I'm lucky to get more than one name. I tend to remember roles and actors more than the characters. Like (don't laugh) I, Robot is probably top 10 movie of all time and I've seen it many times. Off the top of my head I remember Sonny by name. Then the other characters in my head are Will Smith, the awkward scientist girl, the old scientist that gets killed, Will Smith's grandma, the badass police chief that shotguns robots, the annoying kid who drives around, and the AI that controls the building. Like I know the cast well, but names? If I tried really hard I could probably name half of them (Will Smith, scientist girl, and evil AI names on the tip of my tongue) but man it's hard. I think Will Smith's character is named Detective Spooner?

How about Groundhog Day, another of my favorites that is one of my most watched movies of all time. I remember Phil and Ned because they yell each other's names a lot but the heck if I remember the main girl's name or much of anyone else's. But I remember roles in the movie.

You really need to be part of a series or have a really strong main character to have easily named characters. Or have a bunch of people talking about the movie nonstop I guess.

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Lopen posted...

To be fair I can't name any characters in a lot of single entry movies, and of those I can I'm lucky to get more than one name. I tend to remember roles and actors more than the characters. Like (don't laugh) I, Robot is probably top 10 movie of all time and I've seen it many times. Off the top of my head I remember Sonny by name. Then the other characters in my head are Will Smith, the awkward scientist girl, the old scientist that gets killed, Will Smith's grandma, the badass police chief that shotguns robots, the annoying kid who drives around, and the AI that controls the building. Like I know the cast well, but names? If I tried really hard I could probably name half of them (Will Smith, scientist girl, and evil AI names on the tip of my tongue) but man it's hard. I think Will Smith's character is named Detective Spooner?

How about Groundhog Day, another of my favorites that is one of my most watched movies of all time. I remember Phil and Ned because they yell each other's names a lot but the heck if I remember the main girl's name or much of anyone else's. But I remember roles in the movie.

You really need to be part of a series or have a really strong main character to have easily named characters. Or have a bunch of people talking about the movie nonstop I guess.

all of this is true but i also think this isn't the point the video is making. you might not remember will smith's name in i, robot but you still remember will smith because he's one of the most charming actors of all time. sam worthington is... uh... not. all of the characters in avatar are a bunch of nothing.

and in fairness, the girl in groundhog day is also nothing. that movie is great is because bill murray is so great.

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Eh I clearly remember the main jarhead army guy, the blue girl, and Ellen Ripley as the scientist girl the jarhead doesn't listen to

Not great characters (as evidenced by not being able to tell you a single thing about the blue girl beyond her being blue) but you know.

Editor's note: Just remembered Sigourney Weaver's actual name before posting. Alien better movie than Avatar confirmed.

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i remember andie macdowell's name because i had just watched four weddings and a funeral before the first (and only) time i saw groundhog day

i want to say her character's name is rita
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Lopen posted...

Eh I clearly remember the main jarhead army guy, the blue girl, and Ellen Ripley as the scientist girl the jarhead doesn't listen to

Not great characters (as evidenced by not being able to tell you a single thing about the blue girl beyond her being blue) but you know.

Editor's note: Just remembered Sigourney Weaver's actual name before posting. Alien better movie than Avatar confirmed.

i remember that those characters exist but i don't remember anything about them. that's the difference between them and will smith's character in i, robot. even if i don't know his name, i totally remember his personality.

in avatar, i'll make an exception for evil military guy - he was at least somewhat memorable because he was such a ridiculous caricature. pretty much drawing a blank on the others, though.

sigourney weaver is a legendary actress and i don't even remember what SHE was like in this movie >_>

edit: so uh yeah, i think you already got my point, given your "i can't tell you a single thing about the blue girl" line.

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Yeah. Fair enough. I just think "can you name the characters" is a bit of a loaded question all things considered is all I was getting at. Not necessarily a fault of Avatar that I don't know their names.

But yeah I mean it's not a good movie don't get me wrong. It's just not terrible I guess. More about the world setting than the characters I think.

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i mean, "well i don't even know the names of main characters in my favorite movies so it's not avatar's fault that i don't know the names of the characters" is a weirdly specific thing to attack this video for.

i do know the names of the main characters in my favorite movies and i can't remember any of the names in avatar (aside from jake), so i'd say their point is pretty valid!

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