Board 8 > Don't tell me what I can't do: a 10-year LOST retrospective/character ranking

(+) Yeah! (+)

Related, but they also do a shitty job making me feel Ben deserves any kind of redemption.

Like the dude honestly should have died and it's wild he didn't.

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Yeah of all the characters that survived the series, the one that baffled me most by far was Ben.

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#24. Jacob
<img src="http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/05/12/c1main.jacob.lost.jpg">

And alas, we get to the character who perhaps fell the most places in my rankings from my first watch-through to my second. Upon first viewing, I, like many others, saw Jacob as this ultra-intriguing, mysterious "final boss" of sorts who would explain all of the secrets of the Island. And like many, I was disappointed by the mishandling of his origin story and the unsatisfactory way things are left unresolved, but I never really attributed that to Jacob's character. Mark Pelligrino's performance was pretty great, and the journey of trying to uncover who Jacob is and what he's doing was a fun ride.

But then I watched LOST again, knowing how it all ends, and my perception of Jacob has shifted dramatically. I am not one of those people who needs every little plot point explained in detail--Twin Peaks is one of my all-time favorite shows, for fuck's sake. So the lack of resolution about many of the Island/Jacob mysteries isn't what irks me. What irks me is how full of shit and awful Jacob really is.

Despite being the "good" entity on the Island, Jacob is the driving force behind all of the death, destruction, and sadness that engulfs our main characters. In fact, if the twist at the end was that Jacob was actually the evil force all along, I would have been relatively pleased because all of his cumulative shittiness would have made a lot more sense!

But it's not only the fact that he's kind of a villain--complicated characters and gray areas are perfectly fine in a series like this. It's the fact that he is written as omnipotent yet impotent at the same time, willing his "candidates" to do his business for him in perhaps the most illogical manner imaginable. If he can see ten steps into the future, needing one character to discover something so that it starts a domino effect, why not just skip all of the interim steps? You and I know the answer to that (poor writing), but after watching this nonsense twice it just becomes frustrating filler. I may have placed him too high.

#23. Dr. Pierre Chang
<img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qdhH7E095yE/maxresdefault.jpg">

And now we're reached what I will dub the Dr. Chang Fodder Line. This is the line that I drew when making the list that separates "characters I generally like" from "characters I dislike or don't matter to me." This is the first demarcation, as there will be another line that separates "the heavily flawed characters I still like" group from the "only characters I actually like" group (but more on that when the time comes).

Dr. Chang is really a nothing character in the first few seasons until we catch up with the Dharma folks in the 1970s timeline. Here we get a glimpse into a more developed character--an ostensibly cold and hardass scientist who cares more about his work than his family, whom we later learn actually does prioritize his family first. It's a pretty common trope, but they pull it off well enough where it doesn't bother me too much.

But that's really it for Dr. Chang. I neither like him nor dislike him. He serves his purpose as effectively as needed. He is truly a net-zero on the show, and thus he is my fodder line.

Jacob sucks totally. Of all the characters who SHOULD have been a maguffin, it's this dude. I'm firmly of the mindset the show should've just been Ben v. Widmore and the supernatural stuff should've just been restricted to Hurley eps.

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colliding posted...

Jacob sucks totally. Of all the characters who SHOULD have been a maguffin, it's this dude. I'm firmly of the mindset the show should've just been Ben v. Widmore and the supernatural stuff should've just been restricted to Hurley eps.

I am actually fine with the supernatural if they executed it correctly. I'll have more on that for the Man in Black...

Jacob comes off staggeringly incompetent upon a second viewing. Like he didnt even tell Richard, his #2, about the Candidates or their importantance or well, anything really.

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wouldn't even rank chang

the only good part about jacob was when he told ben "what about you?" fucking hilarious. otherwise he's reaaaaal bad.
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ffmasterjose posted...

Jacob comes off staggeringly incompetent upon a second viewing. Like he didnt even tell Richard, his #2, about the Candidates or their importantance or well, anything really.

Yep, exactly. It seems like everything is chalked up to "well they have to make the decisions for themselves" but then he does virtually everything to ensure that they cannot escape their destiny. It's really inconsistent and half-assed.

GameStonk posted...

It's really inconsistent and half-assed.

Subtitle for the last season of Lost.

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I'll do some more tomorrow

Hearts gonna be broken

Oh no Artz is going down.

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bryans7 posted...

Oh no Artz is going down.

You mean Arnzt?

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Its obviously gonna be everyone's favorite season 6 Widmore flunky Zoe.

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Wow, I can't believe you're going to get rid of DJ Dan so soon!

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#22. Charles Widmore
<img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EZYBehUW5c8/maxresdefault.jpg">

Ah, Widmore. On one hand, he is an amazing supervillain who exhumed hundreds of bodies to stage the Flight 815 crash. On the other hand, he is an incompetent boob who hires geologists to stage a military coup on a magic island. To say he is an inconsistent presence on LOST is an understatement.

At the end of the day, Widmore really just wants to regain control of the Island. And he is a pretty solid bad guy when that's all it is. But digging further, it becomes readily apparent that he is quite underdeveloped. Why exactly does he care about being the top boss on some primordial rock, especially when he is presumably a billionaire in the "real world"? We're given almost no backstory for him other than the fact that he was in the military, and later became the leader of the Hostiles. We know little about his desires, his motivations other than "me want Island again."

And you know what? It's serviceable enough. Like all too many characters on this list, he'd probably rank a tad higher if not for season 6, in which he comes to one of the most hilariously underwhelming and forgettable ends of anyone on the show, let alone one of the primary antagonists.

#21. Richard Alpert
<img src="https://i.redd.it/sz258p55qxe11.jpg">

Let me post two descriptions of the same person to see if you can see if there is a correlation:

1. This character is the most transparent example of the writers making shit up as they go out of anyone on the show
2. This character fell more spots from my first watch-through to my second than anyone else on the list

Can you see how these statements are related? They both describe Richard/Ricardus, one of the quintessential examples of how full of shit the creators were/are, but also one of the coolest and most interesting presences on the show before you realize this fact. The first appearances of Richard imply that he's just a high-level Other--but a special one at that because we see him recruiting Juliet off of the Island. Now how did he get there?? A really great mystery. And soon we find out something else about Richard: he apparently never ages! Another feature that makes him one of the more fascinating people on the show.

But as we get deeper into season 5 and 6, we realize that the writers had absolutely no clue how to explain these events without completely throwing away all logical plausibility. Richard Alpert, nexus to omniscient Island God Jacob, seems absolutely bewildered and confused when Locke and co. begin time-traveling back and know who he is (despite the fact that he is fucking immortal and knows the Island is magical). Richard Alpert, all-knowing and all-seeing sage who is constantly visited by time-traveling bands of men and seems to fast-travel himself, can never seem to remember the fact that this happens to him all the time, and acts like a total idiot whenever it occurs again. And to attempt to make up for their half-assed character development, we are "treated" to one of the most boring episodes in the series, Ab Aeterno, in an unnecessary explanation of his backstory.

Richard, when left taciturn and shrouded in mystery, is a really amazing representative of the wonder of the Island (and the show), and is truly one of the best side characters we have. Ricardus, when fully fleshed out, is a confused dumbass who comes with more plot holes than your average Nolan movie.*

*I love Christopher Nolan and I jest for fun.

oof

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A Richard Alpert write-up with no mention of eyeliner. How did you do it.

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hey man, I don't judge people based on their looks (except for hunk daddy Frank Lapidus ^_^)

I like Widmore and Richard, but man is Jacob bad (particularly in Across the Sea, by far the worst episode of the show)

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Widmore is kind of laughable in hindsight. I remember it being so flaccid in Season 6 with him, but I couldn't even tell you what actually happened to him in Season 6 at all. I just remember so much disappointment from it.

But Richard is weird. Because it absolutely feels like everyone laughed and then said "Hahaha, Richard doesn't age at all because of the shitty make-up work," and then people did as they usually did and went "So what if it's really BECAUSE he can't age?"

And then it felt like the writers just leaned into that because it was a stupid fan theory based on a bad wig or whatever it was? Like, more than anything else in Lost, I distinctly remember it feeling like something they just tacked on after the fact.

That said, Nestor Carbonell is an amazing actor. He's brilliant in Bates Motel. I really enjoyed the character throughout the series. I'd probably rank him higher still, but I'm not going to complain too much. It's such a bizarre choice they made with the character.

Am I crazy and remembering this timeline of events wrong? Because I swear that's how this played out in fan circles and then the writers.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Am I crazy and remembering this timeline of events wrong? Because I swear that's how this played out in fan circles and then the writers.

I was not watching live until season 5 so I cannot confirm, but that is hilarious (and completely believable) if true.

The contrast between Richard's earlier appearances and his appearances after the writers decided he was immortal is so astoundingly different that he seems like an entirely different character.

I don't remember the exact timeline of when they established that he was immortal but it seems plausible that it was a retroactive decision by the writers. Carbonell was supposed to be on a new CBS show which probably would have meant he couldn't be on Lost anymore, but then the show got canceled due to the writers' strike.

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WazzupGenius00 posted...

I don't remember the exact timeline of when they established that he was immortal but it seems plausible that it was a retroactive decision by the writers. Carbonell was supposed to be on a new CBS show which probably would have meant he couldn't be on Lost anymore, but then the show got canceled due to the writers' strike.

Cane, I think? Something with Jimmy Smits.

Ab Aeterno (a.k.a. the much heralded Wrestling With Angels episode) was excellent and the best part of Season 6.

Like, Alpert sits at 20 on my list for all the reasons mentioned. He's a mysterious character who gets both more complex and more dumb with age. I'm also contemplating now how so many problems on Lost are defined by arbitrary rules that end up ignored or broken. The exact compass direction to reach the island, that if you talk with smokey you can never defeat him, everything with Jacob.

Maybe the Swan Hatch was an experiment after all! Pressing the numbers in does work and save the world every 108 minutes, but that doesn't mean every dumb rule there is needs to actually be followed.

*foams at mouth remembering the stupid candidate shit and the lighthouse and Eloise's pendulum and graugfahfyzhyd*

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Richard Alpert was definitely the moment the showrunners threw off the covers and flatly admitted that they read the fan theories and actively tried to both subvert and play along with expectations

just awful

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richard was always enjoyable on screen and that's enough for me. he wouldn't rank super-high or anything but he's fun.

widmore is mostly just a non-factor by the end, yeah. there was never really going to be a satisfying ending with him.
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GameStonk posted...

I was not watching live until season 5 so I cannot confirm, but that is hilarious (and completely believable) if true.

God, it's almost unfair you watched that way.

Without the 6 seasons of fan speculation you don't get the utter disappointment of it all and the maddening amount of effort that people went into trying to analyze these characters and such.

And then the crushing realization when we slowly realized "Oh wait they aren't actually as clever as we all thought they were and we did a lot of speculation based on shit they didn't actually plan out."

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Yeah, I caught the tail end of the fandom speculation as I was binging on ABC.com (one of the first places you could legally stream!). I can only imagine the full extent of it.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Without the 6 seasons of fan speculation you don't get the utter disappointment of it all and the maddening amount of effort that people went into trying to analyze these characters and such.

Don't forget how they super hyped an episode with MAJOR REVELATIONS for weeks and then we got... Jack's tattoos.

You can blow through that in a binge and be whatever about it, but in real time? Hurts so bad.

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I mean, I know ABC has to hype shit.

But ABC marketing is evil for those times. lol

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Aw but the fan speculation was half the fun! Lost really pioneered that kind of TV genre, trying to figure things out and working up theories (and memes) with the community was great, no matter how it ended up.

Although the Stranger in a Strange Land promo is still ridiculous. What even were the other two mysteries 'revealed', did we ever find out definitively?

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andylt posted...

Aw but the fan speculation was half the fun! Lost really pioneered that kind of TV genre, trying to figure things out and working up theories (and memes) with the community was great, no matter how it ended up.

Twin Peaks says hey

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I guess I mean in the Internet era, with wikis and forums for predictions etc.

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This piece just dropped, havent read it yet: an oral history of the finale.
https://www.vulture.com/amp/article/lost-series-finale-oral-history-the-end.html

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#20. Danielle Rousseau
<img src="https://media.comicbook.com/2021/01/mira-furlan-1253528.jpeg">

Rousseau is naturally iconic for being the first one* to show us that the Flight 815 characters are not alone on the Island. For those watching in real-time (or going in blind), this is quite the revelation. It's hard to imagine in retrospect, but LOST really did start out as kind of a traditional castaway narrative: a bunch of strangers, each with unique pasts, crash land on an Island and must band together to survive. A pretty simple story--until we first hear that ominous French recording playing in a loop. That is, for me, where the show really became something more special and unique, so Rousseau will always have a place in my heart for the role she played there.

Outside of that initial reveal and back-and-forth with Sayid, however, Rousseau really doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. She appears here and there as the crazy jungle woman; and by the time her backstory is revealed, she is just one of many random people who found herself on the Island. Not that this is her fault, really, but it does go to show you how the writers bloated too much of the "mystery" elements where even someone as ostensibly interesting as Rousseau loses her unique intrigue by the end of the series.

*yes, technically we meet Ethan first, but we don't know he wasn't on the plane right away

WazzupGenius00 posted...

This piece just dropped, havent read it yet: an oral history of the finale.
https://www.vulture.com/amp/article/lost-series-finale-oral-history-the-end.html

ooh this looks interesting

WazzupGenius00 posted...

This piece just dropped, havent read it yet: an oral history of the finale.
https://www.vulture.com/amp/article/lost-series-finale-oral-history-the-end.html

Ugh, I'm already getting defensively angry.

"Despite accusations from critics that Lindelof, Cuse, and the rest of the writers were just making up Lost as they went along, the seeds for certain elements and imagery that would appear in the finale started to be planted as early as season one."

I don't think there's much disagreement that the final episode of the show contained resolutions and elements to things established very early on in the narrative, bookending the entire show. Those plans were thought about and in place as touchstones to get towards.

It was everything getting to that finale that came out of nowhere and went nowhere!!! The Temple, The Lighthouse, The Candidates, The Well, The Sideways, The Rules, The Claire, The Sayid, The Convenient Plot Armor is Actual In-Universe Lampshaded Convenient Plot Armor, et cetera et cetera et cetera.

Why does Lost give me such bubble bursting need to flood?


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Trying to think about the appropriate character writeup to discuss the "flash sideways." I have a lot of thoughts on that as it is probably the most enraging aspect of the show for me.

as much as I dislike season 6 the "flash sideways" aspect never bothered me. I called it being the afterlife early on and thought it was ok. the on-island stuff is god awful though.

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colliding posted...

as much as I dislike season 6 the "flash sideways" aspect never bothered me. I called it being the afterlife early on and thought it was ok. the on-island stuff is god awful though.

I don't mind so much the reveal of it, but just the build up. Mystery for mystery sake became like... like... tartar buildup. Lost forgot how to floss.

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sideways sucked and was pointless padding

EXCEPT for perhaps the single best line in the season (and in the running for the entire series)

I make good eggs

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Sideways were quite literally a waste of our time and were no materially different than a dream sequence

GameStonk posted...

Sideways were quite literally a waste of our time and were no materially different than a dream sequence

This is where I was on the whole thing.

It was the most pointless addition so they could do an up their own ass happy ending that barely even made sense. Like none of it mattered. Any of it. So, so very stupid, and completely irrelevant to the rest of the series.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

This is where I was on the whole thing.

It was the most pointless addition so they could do an up their own ass happy ending that barely even made sense. Like none of it mattered. Any of it. So, so very stupid, and completely irrelevant to the rest of the series.

You could make an argument that the sideways reality connected to the actual show events when Desmond went into the light, but yeah it's still infuriating that they had no effect on the present-time situation.

i don't think an afterlife mystery is a bad idea in theory

execution felt terrible though
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I'm still of the opinion that in season 1 when everyone was guessing some sort of purgatory explanation that it might have gotten too close to their initial ideas. They came out hard against it, but may have just been forced to pivot. And S6 was the remnants of those initial ideas when they no longer had to keep people on a string.

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#19. Sun-Hwa Kwon
<img src="https://home.adelphi.edu/~je16953/kim_l.jpg">

Man, LOST really did Sun dirty. After being one of the few characters who truly improved over the course of the first 4 seasons (by virtue of letting her communicate with other people), I was really starting to warm up to Sun. She was pretty well developed and, after she got pregnant, actually had some real stakes in the storyline. If she didn't get off the Island before the second trimester, she was toast. And then she does, and her husband is left behind. Compelling stuff!

And then seasons 5 and 6 come along, and no one really knew what to do with her. She was probably the only character other than Ben who had a legitimate reason to want to return to the Island, yet she is also one of the most reluctant to do so. And when she finally relents after learning Jin was still alive, we are treated to about 25 episodes (literally) of Sun wandering around doing the "Where's my husbundt?" meme, and kind of being there.

But then comes the part that I, and so many others, loathe perhaps more than any other in the show. She is finally reunited with Jin and shows him a picture of their baby, alive and well in the real world. Jin is overjoyed. Seems like a really good setup for a dramatic decision, right?

Well, no. Sun and Jin are killed off not one episode later in a slow and horrific manner. Sun is trapped, and despite dedicating a scene to their daughter, neither Sun nor Jin tell the other that their daughter needs a fucking parent--and they both choose to drown together instead of escaping. It is a mind-numbingly stupid twist that takes a multiseason arc and completely flushes it down the toilet. Sun's entire existence in the show becomes purposeless and ruins what otherwise could have been one of the few solid female characters.

"Sun is such an alcoholic. She's always asking for gin."

It was also ridiculous what they did with her through the final two seasons. That death was so maddeningly stupid. STUPID. It's one of those moments where they removed all logic and sense so we could have another "feels" moment, when all you're doing is left with a feeling that these people suck and were so unbearably selfish.

How did you not have Jin leave the island after that? Like, Sun came back to bring him home so he could be with his daughter. How is it not more touching of a scene for Sun to be all "Our daughter needs her father now." Like, Sun goes through so much (and if I remember right, some not-so-good stuff) to get Jin back. It only makes sense that Jin escapes to make good on everything Sun went through and give us what probably would have been the most feel good escape from the island of anyone. It was really THAT easy. I don't know how they made such an obvious mistake. I don't know how they overlooked this. I don't know how they failed such an obvious set up and pay off to a storyline.

It was so bad that LOST superfan Jimmy Kimmel who always had nothing but good things to say about the show was talking to someone on his show and was like "Okay, but why did nobody go back to be a parent? Now this girl is orphaned." And they were just like buuuuuuh...?

Just terrible.

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perfect sun write-up. agreed on everything 100%

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