Wow. Even seeing Parasite did not prepare me for this one. Very glad to not have had it spoiled for me, I had visceral reactions to several of the reveals - plus Kim Hye-ja's screams are horrifying. Bong Joon-ho sure has a grim view of humanity, but is an absolute visual & storytelling genius.
I don't know if this was talked about, or if it was even up for interpretation, but since insecticide is known to cause lasting neurological problems in children, I wonder if the implication here is that the infanticide attempt actually caused or worsened the son's cognitive problems and ultimately led to the girl's death. That'd be so gutting.
Couldn't hardly ask for a better, darker start to this group.
9.5/10
EDIT
kateee posted...
for the spreadsheet i will be recording on a scale of 1-10 with no decimals
10 then
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azuarc wasn't even home. he was playing Magic the Gathering at his buddy's store, which is extremely easy to verify
This movie is very well put together. The performances are great, especially from the mother and Do-joon. It definitely captures the feeling of a mother who worries incessantly about her child, even ignoring the murder plot. Every lingering shot is very well put together to show this dynamic. It captures mundanity perfectly.
I didnt enjoy this movie at all. I dont think there was a single thing I enjoyed about anything. I didnt like the mother, I didnt like Do-joon, I didnt find any thrilling suspense, I wasnt engaged at all by finding out who really killed that girl, , for heping Do-joon, or for making mother feel better about the situation.
I didnt find anything interesting or compelling about the mother being a mother, or about Do-joons childlike incompetence. I didnt care about chasing the Benz driver and the golf scene, I didnt care about Do-joon out drinking, I didnt care about the murder, the cops lack of due diligence, the lawyer not giving a shit, the mothers investigation, mother watching Jin-tae bang a girl and then sneaking out. Jin-tae probably did murder somebody though.
Mom trying to kill Do-joon as a child was quite a twist that seemed kinda pointless.
The best scenes were the lawyers karaoke, Jin-taes monologue in the shadows, interrogating those schoolboys, the crazy granny, and Do-joons brain short circuiting after the act. But I still cant say I enjoyed any of them. It was a perfectly put together movie that I did not care about at all.
6/10.
Actually, there is one thing I liked. Jin-tae said theres three reasons for murder. Money, passion, and vengeance. Its shown MANY times that Do-joon will use violence as vengeance against people who insult him. So the result does have some set up. But I still dont really care about Do-joon. I had no sympathy for the mother before this reveal and so I definitely did not have sympathy in her descent into villainy.
Ive never watched a Korean film before, though Ive read a lot of manhwa. One interesting feeling is that, like the live action Japanese movies Ive watched, it felt very anime in the way it frames scenes to hold on a striking image, like how it shows Do-joons eye staring at mother when he remembers her murder attempt on him, or how it will make certain characters unusually distinguishable like the rice wine granny or the girl with the scar in her cheek. I watched the Grand Budapest Hotel recently and it goes out of its way to do this sort of thing, but I think western films dont do this much.
7/10 final rating.
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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
My goodness, I didn't expect anyone to want to be subjected to my generic taste in movies
I can give them some other week down the line. As Icon suspects, it would have been a tone shift from this week, but I think they would have been right along the lines of Kajllionaire, which looks like it might be winning this week. Though not as indie.
My Ranking:
Kajillionaire (2020) Sound of Metal (2019) Portrait of A Lady On Fire (2019) Blade Runner 2049 (2017)
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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
I do not like this movie. To me it feels less like a crime thriller and a lot more like a slice of life movie. The way that things just sort of seem to happen and how the emotional tone can turn on a dime says "look, isn't this like a real person's life but enhanced!" I've seen people compare Bong Joon-ho to Hitchcock, but this is no Vertigo. While it's a very deliberate and well-made movie, it's left rough and unvarnished on purpose as if to say "hey look at my work of art!" Hitchcock movies have structure and refinement to them, and Mother wants nothing to do with either of those things.
The story plays out in a way to make you think that Do-Joon must be innocent, that the Mother's quest to prove her child-like son is a good boy is correct. It does so by providing one red herring after another until revealing the truth: the lazy cops were right all along. Do-Joon is guilty and the eponymous Mother is even worse. When the police do finally come to the conclusion that they might have been wrong we've already learned they weren't, and now some other character we know only by name is to be convicted by the same broken system. The movie deliberately betrays the audience with its "mystery" and then points and laughs at the audience by telling them someone innocent really will be punished for the crime. Nothing is fair, and you're the villain for trying to defend someone you thought was innocent.
There is no satisfying resolution to this movie. Things just kind of happen, and we are to presume things will continue to just sort of happen after the film stops. No one has a comeuppance, no one really learns anything. None of the main characters are particularly likable, let alone redeemable. Nothing is changed, life just goes on. For what it wants to be, it's good. What it wants to be, is not. This movie isn't entertaining. It's not even really thought provoking. It seems only to be there to emotionally drain and defeat the viewer should they invest themselves in it. Some may call this movie "challenging," but from what I've seen I'd have to call it punishing.
I do not like this movie. To me it feels less like a crime thriller and a lot more like a slice of life movie. The way that things just sort of seem to happen and how the emotional tone can turn on a dime says "look, isn't this like a real person's life but enhanced!" I've seen people compare Bong Joon-ho to Hitchcock, but this is no Vertigo. While it's a very deliberate and well-made movie, it's left rough and unvarnished on purpose as if to say "hey look at my work of art!" Hitchcock movies have structure and refinement to them, and Mother wants nothing to do with either of those things.
The story plays out in a way to make you think that Do-Joon must be innocent, that the Mother's quest to prove her child-like son is a good boy is correct. It does so by providing one red herring after another until revealing the truth: the lazy cops were right all along. Do-Joon is guilty and the eponymous Mother is even worse. When the police do finally come to the conclusion that they might have been wrong we've already learned they weren't, and now some other character we know only by name is to be convicted by the same broken system. The movie deliberately betrays the audience with its "mystery" and then points and laughs at the audience by telling them someone innocent really will be punished for the crime. Nothing is fair, and you're the villain for trying to defend someone you thought was innocent.
There is no satisfying resolution to this movie. Things just kind of happen, and we are to presume things will continue to just sort of happen after the film stops. No one has a comeuppance, no one really learns anything. None of the main characters are particularly likable, let alone redeemable. Nothing is changed, life just goes on. For what it wants to be, it's good. What it wants to be, is not. This movie isn't entertaining. It's not even really thought provoking. It seems only to be there to emotionally drain and defeat the viewer should they invest themselves in it. Some may call this movie "challenging," but from what I've seen I'd have to call it punishing.
please vote for the next movie (post #84) by 3 PM Pacific Time today if you intend to. or reply with "No Vote" if you do not intend to.
also as mentioned before, i don't know whether you want me to keep you on the @ list for the weekly votes. i can make assumptions but if notifications are annoying or you'd rather just pop into the topic on your own occasionally, that's fine too.
if it's beyond next week, did you have a specific week in mind? i can just move you there and everybody else up a slot so we don't have to check every week.
yeah, if you have already seen the movie that was picked for that week, it's up to you if you want to rewatch it at that time. you can just give a rating and i can mark it in the spreadsheet regardless.
Nominate movies (if your turn that week) By: Thursday of that week, 8:00 P.M. EST/5:00 P.M. PST Vote By: Friday of that week, 8:00 P.M. EST/5:00 P.M. PST
I will typically send a reminder to whoever's turn it is that week on Wednesday but you can also check the order in the spreadsheet (second sheet).
Hmmmm... I may not understand the ranking. Not that I'm upset, it was my #2 after all. it looks very good!
Sound of Metal had 10 overall votes which was the most.
The ranking within individual votes are not taken into account unless there is a tie.
If you vote for any movie, regardless of where you rank it, you are saying that you're fine with watching it. So we end up going with the choice that the most number of people are fine with.
Sorry if I was unclear or anything. I hope everyone understood that from the start. If you think I made a mistake, let me know.
Hmmmm... I may not understand the ranking. Not that I'm upset, it was my #2 after all. it looks very good!
I can give my recs this week
I think it just ended up with more votes/higher ranking.
I'm starting to think my tastes are going to be very different than most of B8s, but at least I'll watch stuff I wouldn't ever watch otherwise.
Abacus has finished Mother (2009)
I was not a fan! ChiChirimuyo said a lot of what I had thought of it. Except the thing I liked most about the movie was there wasn't any comeuppance/learning. I feel like it doesn't happen often in moves. Other than that, I just found it pretty boring.
Rating: 5/10
Will try to watch Sound of Metal this weekend, but may be next week before I can start it.
Ohhh, somehow I thought that only the top vote matters and if ties happen you'll look at peoples secondary choices etc.
I think the way you did it is fine and easy
ViolentAbacus posted...
Abacus has finished Mother (2009)
I was not a fan! ChiChirimuyo said a lot of what I had thought of it. Except the thing I liked most about the movie was there wasn't any comeuppance/learning. I feel like it doesn't happen often in moves. Other than that, I just found it pretty boring.
This is an interesting point. Neither mother nor Do-joon have really much self awareness at all... and they go on like that, just existing as they are and as they always have been.
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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
My first thought was to talk about Joe and the one note element his character brought to the table so... the guy has one note. He has but one note. No one can listen to his one note because anyone who can still hear is told to kindly gtfo. I really liked this movie, in spite of or to spite Joe. Fuck Joe. Fuck him up his stupid ass.
Watched Sound of Metal. I liked the premise of "musician deals with hearing loss", but I felt like a lot of the story was just missing. I get why Ruben wanted to get the implants, but early in the movie it seemed like actually getting them would be a challenge. But no, he gets the money fairly easily and gets the operation done almost immediately after. If it was that easy the whole time, why didn't he just do that in the first place? It was weird to see him grow so much, then suddenly decide "No, this sucks and I can't live this way" without much explanation. It just seemed way too quick somehow.
As mentioned before, I had never heard about this movie. LOL! Went in thinking it was about heavy metal or maybe a musical, I wasnt far off.
Solid performance from Riz Ahmed and also from the deaf cult leader, even though he was a complete asshole at the end, turning his back because youre not one of us anymore. I was afraid it was going to go the religious route of how God helps one overcome all, but it ended up being a very realistic take on someone going deaf. This movie is very relatable to me. I have a bad hip that has kept me from running for about 4 years now and when my doctor told me that I wouldnt be able to run again even after surgery I was completely devastated. A lot of my favorite hobbies require me to run and it took me awhile to cope with my disability and accept it.
I did have some issues with the pacing. Rubens trials of learning how to be deaf seemed instantaneous, but I assume it took him some time to learn sign language. In one scene hes smashing in a bagel and then the next hes happy and playing with the children. The editing was kinda weird and probably wouldve helped to communicate to the audience how long time has passed. I also thought he was gonna hit it off with that one deaf teacher lady. When he got the implants, I fully expected it to be unsuccessful, but the end results turned out to be very black mirror eerie the way his hearing aids work, but not really. That was very interesting and I dont know if I couldve went on as long as he did before ditching it. Be careful what you wish for!
After getting the procedure and begging for money from deaf cult leader, how was he able to stay at a motel for a month or fly to Paris afterwards? The ending was a little predictable but it was effective. He found serenity. I hope he goes back and gets with the deaf teacher lady.
Rating: 7/10
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dilateDChemist Last minute changes killed my bracket - still would've got destroyed by azuarc
he was a complete asshole at the end, turning his back because youre not one of us anymore.
That kind of attitude towards people who try to cure their deafness isn't uncommon in the Deaf community in real life. The guy is an asshole, but it's not unrealistic. ---
Wow. Even seeing Parasite did not prepare me for this one. Very glad to not have had it spoiled for me, I had visceral reactions to several of the reveals - plus Kim Hye-ja's screams are horrifying. Bong Joon-ho sure has a grim view of humanity, but is an absolute visual & storytelling genius.
I don't know if this was talked about, or if it was even up for interpretation, but since insecticide is known to cause lasting neurological problems in children, I wonder if the implication here is that the infanticide attempt actually caused or worsened the son's cognitive problems and ultimately led to the girl's death. That'd be so gutting.
yeah, i've seen that theory before. her shame would probably be amplified when she found out what really happened in that case. she was adamant enough that he didn't do it in the first place that she showed up to the funeral, specifically to tell the people there that her son was innocent.
some shot stuff
there's like 3 shots of flowing?/trickling? liquid - first with the urine at the bus stop, water at the house and blood at the junk collector's. does it mean anything? i don't know.
i think probably one of the most memorable shots is when Do-Joon is looking at his mother with his eye covered because of the fight he was in earlier and then when he drops the line about her trying to kill him, he uncovers the eye and shows the bruising mirroring the "reveal" of the truth
Ruben: *Gets $40000+ surgery* Doctor: *Adjusts three times* Ruben: "It's still bad." Doctor: "LOL Oh well go out and get used to it I guess I dunno, thanks for the cash bye"
Riz Ahmed was great here, deserves a ton of praise for sure. However, the film was rather lackluster overall. The most powerful content came from the beginning, seeing Ruben's raw reactions to the initial hearing loss was extremely emotional. It reminded me of when I first experienced tinnitus and I searched desperately for a sound I couldn't place, and it kept me up all night in tears. Olivia Cooke has one hell of an effective sad, worried face too. Unfortunately, when they split and it was just Ruben on the ranch in the deaf community, the film prefers to settle for these rote, surface-level montages that zoom past what should be Ruben's most challenging and aversive phase. No one on the ranch has strong characterization and we don't even see their reactions to Ruben leaving or getting the implants. It feels strangely lazy when put up against the nuanced first act. It was really distracting how Ruben's surgery was given no attention either, with doctor's almost seeming dismissive of Ruben's complaints when in reality I'm sure their would be a lot more care and testing that would go in to it. Going to back to things I liked, I always enjoyed hearing ambiance from the perspective of Ruben, sound design is strong here. Ruben learning to embrace the silence was also good from a character perspective if predictable. While it had its moments and especially a strong beginning, I don't think this is a film that will be sticking with me too much unfortunately.
Also, no effect on my rating here, but I was hoping this was going to have some killer metal soundtrack or something! Just a minor nitpick from me, probably wouldn't have even fit in the film well.
I have never actually seen The Sound of Music so I don't know if there are supposed to be any references but I'm pretty sure the guy did spin around in the grass once
From the first scene I figured this would be Whiplash for metal, turns out it's a cautionary tale about earplugs and hearing aids. I don't think I saw this guy using earplugs at all, even the Whiplash kid had them! And then of course the ironic twist, the sound of metal is the hearing aids which apparently make the world sound like a robot factory. I know the doctor halfheartedly explained that the implant wasn't so perfect early on and Ruben didn't want to hear it (ba dum ch) but you'd think the deaf community leader would have been even more direct about how disappointing the results are considering he was trying to dissuade Ruben from the procedure. It's like he forgot the strongest argument against them is that they fucking suck.
I couldn't tell what the movie was really saying about religion. The deaf community is associated with the christian church early on but the leader teaches what seems like more of a buddhist nirvana lesson. Ruben makes clear that he wants nothing to do with organized religion, and then at the end what finally prompts his acceptance of stillness is the awful clanging of the church's metal bell through metal ears, the mocking crash cymbal of institutional worship splintered by instruments of institutional transhumanist grifting from which the only salvation is sweet silence
I didn't have problems with the pacing but I can see how it would have been nice to show more of a struggle to integrate and learn sign language, there's a not-quite-montage where he does the alphabet a couple times and makes a solid joke at dinner and all the sudden he's the most popular guy. But I think the movie hit all its emotional beats well and in that sense I liked that it shifted into a genuine feel-good mode instead of languishing in the agony of deafness for too long. Pairing him with the kids early worked well since their cheery attitudes could immediately humble the specific despair of being youthfully deaf. Riz Ahmed did a good job showing the character changes. Lots of good feels from the community aspect
Overall would not want to lose hearing and I hope those implants are at least forward-compatible 7/10 ---
Movie definitely isn't an advertisement for cochlear implants. Not sure how accurately they're portrayed here since when I tried looking up information about what things sound like using one of them, the responses ran the entire gamut from 'yeah, sounds about right' to 'fuck no'.
It was well-made, had great pacing, and held my interest throughout, but it left a bitter taste in my mouth. The characters were all unlikeable and the resolution is very, uhh, convenient and a bit unsatisfying. Something that I don't regret watching but I don't plan on rewatching.
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Into the woods, but mind the past... Into the woods, but mind the future!
i think probably one of the most memorable shots is when Do-Joon is looking at his mother with his eye covered because of the fight he was in earlier and then when he drops the line about her trying to kill him, he uncovers the eye and shows the bruising mirroring the "reveal" of the truth
Yeah that was a powerful moment - there's an intense silence to it that makes the mother's scream even more jarring
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azuarc wasn't even home. he was playing Magic the Gathering at his buddy's store, which is extremely easy to verify
i was honestly terrified in the beginning act where Ruben first starts to experience his hearing loss and you hear all the muffled noises from his point of view. losing a sense you're so accustomed to is an experience i've thought about but hopefully will never experience. i recently (like 3 weeks ago) was made aware of Riz Ahmed in Four Lions and he is great here as well. really showing the mounting frustration/anger and slow realization of the absolute powerlessness you feel when life throws you one of those curve balls.
Joe's work that he writes for Ruben on the whiteboard is to "learn how to be deaf" and at the start we can see his reluctance because of the denial that he's "not really like them" i.e. not completely deaf and he's still holding on to that hope of getting the implants and returning to normalcy. and then he has a moment with that kid on the slide where i think it's either that the kid was also not completely deaf and could somewhat hear the rhythmic banging on the slide or was feeling the vibrations and mimicking him but it triggers a phase where he decides to assimilate more with the community. i see the comments about the pacing/wishing it showed more of the process after this scene but i guess i didn't feel it as much. the next scene shows him signing and conversing with other people so i'm guessing a somewhat significant amount of time had passed since it seemed like he was at a comfortable level with the language.
so i always watch movies with subtitles but decided to turn them off for this movie during one of the early scenes where the sound becomes distant and muffled. but i saw that apparently, the filmmakers intended for the film to be viewed with subtitles and it was shown that way in festivals? i did notice that early on, even with the subtitle option turned off, the sign language was never being subbed but after the scene with the kid on the slide, the signing starts being subtitled mirroring Ruben's own understanding. reminded me of The Tribe where everything is signed but there are no subtitles at all.
it seems like the effectiveness of cochlear implants is like most things where it varies from person to person but i do wonder how many of the cases end up like Ruben's where it may be preferable to the individual to just not hear anything at all. Joe's reaction to the news of Ruben's surgery makes sense to me because he had started believing that Ruben was committed to staying with the deaf community (talking about future prospects of working with his organization/the kids) but he saw the surgery as Ruben's "relapse" moment and he felt he would be a negative influence to the rest of the community. although i am curious how much Joe actually believed Ruben was fully committed since I'm assuming he locked the door to his room with Internet access because he figured Ruben was sneaking into it. maybe he let himself believe and felt that much more affected by the "betrayal". Maybe for a short while, Ruben himself believed it. Like after the conversation with Joe about the future job, he looks up Lou and then sells off all his stuff to get the money for the surgery like the conversation reminded him what he originally wanted. If you compare his scenes with the member who got the tattoo, their initial discussion is entirely signed between them but when they're on the RV after he's decided about the surgery, he's speaking a lot more with minimal signing like he's giving up what he learned there and preparing to go back to his old life.
I'm noticing some comments about the pacing of this movie, and I gotta disagree with the consensus here. I think it worked in the movies favour and reinforced Ruben's characterization. He's a recovering addict, and this movie frames many of his actions in that light. When he first gets his diagnosis, what does he do? Deny its severity, hide it from Lou, and disregards his well-being so he can play a gig. This movie is less focused on the why's, which I get might rub up against more detail-oriented people, but it didn't bother me. Ruben still thinks like an addict, looking for a quick fix. He's thinking in the moment, and so is the movie.
I love how this movie is shot. It goes to great lengths to show us Ruben's perspective, and uses close-ups and audio distortion to show us how isolated he is from the world. It reminded me a little of another 2020 movies, First Cow, another movie that isolates its leads to emphasize their relationship to each other. Where they differ is the actual composition of shots - First Cow is shot in 4:3 to force you to ignore the lush surroundings and give all your attention to the leads. At the beginning of the movie I thought that might work here too, but as the movie progressed I thought about why this movie was shot the way it was, and what effect it had. I think the director made the right choice, because while we do need those moments like Ruben in total near-total darkness at a gig, or in an interview with Joe where Joe is speaking to him out of frame, we also get those moments of Ruben interacting with children, or that second time he's speaking with Joe on a translator, and how it shows him slowly coming to accept his new life. The inverse of this was at Lou's father's birthday party, where we have a wide shot of him lost in the background, looking completely out of place. This wouldn't work with another camera.
The last few scenes of this movie are so heartbreaking. You get that one-two punch of Ruben losing his life and his love, and it hurts to watch. You already know where the movie is heading, because we've seen how Ruben's implant isn't the cure-all he thought it would be as he's trying to search through the noise, but it still stings when he hears Lou and her father play their song and all we get is a discordant mess. Then we have him reuniting with his lover for their first moment alone, and the words shared between them hang for just a moment too long, like the rhythm is off, like it's two lovers meeting again after they've moved on from their lives. Then we see Lou start to scratch her arm again after Ruben shares his plan to resume touring. Ahhhhh, it's so well done.
Anyway, I thought this movie was great. There's a lot to love and think about. It's both emotionally affecting and confident in form. 9/10
There were a few times during the movie that I was anticipating an annoying plot clich, e.g. Ruben has relationship with the deaf teacher, Lou cheats on him while in Paris. But the screenplay completely navigated around all these pitfalls. Instead I ended up completely engrossed the entire time - definitely no issues with the pacing for me.
I thought the characterization of Ruben was a total success. He was portrayed as someone with an addictive personality that, even after seemingly finding comfort in his new deaf life, ended up "relapsing" in an effort to pull-together his past life instead.
Acting-wise I knew Ahmed would kill it since I loved him in my recent watching of The Night Of. And I don't know who Paul Raci is, but I thought he was incredible. Especially great was his final scene with Ahmed.
He's a recovering addict, and this movie frames many of his actions in that light. When he first gets his diagnosis, what does he do? Deny its severity, hide it from Lou, and disregards his well-being so he can play a gig.
early on, he mentions to his sponsor (i'm assuming) that Lou had him call because he had a cigarette which he considers an overreaction because of the circumstances. If Lou, who's seen him during the recovery process felt like that even one cigarette was reason for concern, it suggests to me he may perhaps be more prone to relapsing, that he's shown in the past. like some in recovery might still regularly smoke as a replacement, coping mechanism, etc. whereas some know that even the smallest thing could lead to relapse so they stay away from everything.
Outside of a few, rare exceptions that I wouldn't expect anyone to nominate to begin with, I'll continue to vote for anything I've yet to see.
I think Arrival is absolutely fantastic, I love sci-fi to begin with and Arrival is the exact kind of sci-fi that I really enjoy. So, I can't say I'd be too upset to watch it again.
Vote for any and all movies you would be interested in seeing for the next week (~Jan. 15th, NA). The movie with the most overall votes wins. You may rank your votes from most preferred to least (do not rank movies you would not vote for) so I don't have to @ you back in case of a tie. If you do not intend to vote and are fine with whatever wins, please reply with "No Vote" so there is as little of a waiting period as possible. If you list multiple movies in your vote but you are not ranking them, please include "Not Ranked" along with your vote. Please vote by Friday, Jan. 15th, 8:00 P.M. EST/5:00 P.M. PST
Knives Out (2019) Arrival (2016) In Bruges (2008) What We Do in the Shadows (2014) Baby Driver (2017)
