Board 8 > Nintendo lawyers creating another melee shitstorm

(+) Yeah! (+)

Kenri posted...

"It's impossible to be an asshole as long as everything you do is within your legal rights" is definitely a winning argument.

Nobody really said this. We're just debating how much of an asshole move it actually is.

In my case, I don't think it's as much of one as other people seem to think since

A. Nintendo was partnering with them to promote the event in the first place, so their name was directly attached.
B. Nintendo reached out to them and asked them not to use Slippi for it and they refused.

The fact the rest of the event could have continued on and it was only the Melee/Slippi portion Nintendo didn't want, and the fact Nintendo was even working with them to support it, makes me less sympathetic.

People are free to disagree, and that's cool.

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Also, I think bullet point A up there is the main sticking point, and it's not something I was aware of earlier.

If Nintendo was partnering with the event organizers to support it, then that more directly links them to the use of emulation/mods, which they likely wanted to avoid. It's likely why they've not shut down other tournaments that use Slippi.

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MawiIe posted...

Ok I'll give this a shot and argue with a lawyer over something I know little about. It's the B8 way.

The argument is usually made that if nintendo doesn't push back on emulation/modding/etc then nintendo can lose the right to push back in the future against all of these types of categories. As far as I can tell, these are basically copyright rules copy pasted 1/1 into categories that aren't actually copyright. No cooperation has yet to lose the power to (here's where I'll trip up and use the technical wrong legal term so please put the right one in when you read this) pursue action on emulation based on inaction. You could look at this as them playing it safe, which is exactly what they're doing. But there are lots of other things that could make nintendo lose copyright control over their products that nintendo doesn't guard as heavily and treat as militantly. (well nintendo actually does, as super smash bros on it's own is basically a showcase of "hey we still own literally all of this" but other major video game companies don't go this far, and I imagine without smash, nintendo wouldn't bother either.) Nintendo is basically on the front of "what should we do with media that we own but we want to resell but also we can't resell because we don't have the technology yet" so they get to basically make the rules deciding what they can and can't do legally. They're not at the whim of the law, they're making the law. They're the viacom or disney of video games, so saying "that's just the way the law works! Shrug!" is dishonest. The law works whatever way they want it to work because at the end of the day it's going to be an incredibly wealthy company going to sue some neckbeard who owns 34 copies of pokemon but copy number 25 is a rom.

This whole argument that if they don't do it now they won't be able to later does not apply to copyright law. That's in reference to Trademark law which is a whole different beast. There's literally no reason they *have* to do this right now, they're doing it because they are choosing to

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seems like the rational response to this would be to withdraw your ongoing sponsorship and let the community so passionate about your game that they did some cool shit and developed rollback tech for your two decade old game

and then shove everyone shouting "it's their legal right!" into a locker

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In reference to the above two posts, if they were an official partner then all they had to do was drop their sponsorship. Issuing a C&D is the nuclear option

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RikkuAlmighty posted...

Ok what are the issues pray tell

I'll provide a tldr of the rest of my post here. Didn't think this needed to be pointed out, but in retrospect, considering the other posts here, I guess that makes sense. tldr: nintendo isn't harmed by allowing this tournament to be held, nor does it benefit from stopping it. that's bad

RikkuAlmighty posted...

It's better than "but we want to do this and you're not letting us hmph!"

burden of proof, man. the status quo is letting people do things, and this example is just a statement of said standard. that vapid proclamation absolutely trumps "this is legal so they should do this" in the battle of strawmen, and it at least addresses the moral argument which is what anybody here actually cares about.

you earlier explicitly said that this isn't anti-consumer, it's just business... as if they're mutually exclusive at all. you can't reasonably say that these people are impugning on the ability for Nintendo to make money off of their product. The game is almost 20 years old. It hasn't been sold in over a decade. People holding this tournament emphatically does not discourage people from buying their new game, or any other product Nintendo offers. Profiting off of a product you aren't licensed to is wrong, but that's not the issue here--other tournaments exist, it's just the usage of Slippi that's evidentially the issue. The fact of the matter is that Nintendo are being assholes about doing this, with no harm being perpetuated upon them for allowing the tournament to run... and if this is, in fact, a reasonable move under copyright law, then that law is wrong for incentivizing them, and the problem lies there. Don't be like... I had a situation prepared, but then I realized I have a very good actual example. Don't be like this asshole in their first two points
https://twitter.com/AlexMooreActor/status/1295024740093001736

Obviously this is just in regards to Melee, which, by their announcement, is why it was blocked.

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Well, dropping the sponsorship so close to the event probably doesn't accomplish much, they've already done their part for the most part.

Also there's probably a level of pettiness stemming from the organizers refusing their request not to use Slippi, which is silly, yeah

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Not using slippi is basically equivalent to not having a tournament, because this cost money to enter, and any competitive integrity goes completely out the window without Slippi. It is such a big jump in lag reduction that nobody would ever spend money to participate in an event that wasn't using it.

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Is it just Slippi or is it mods in general that Nintendo takes offense to? Vanilla SSBM obviously doesn't have online support. If Nintendo is saying no to all mods then the tournament can't run at all, right?
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if nintendo was sponsoring this tournament but asked them not to use slippi, isn't that basically the equivalent of them requiring the event to be in person during the pandemic?


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MawiIe posted...

if nintendo was sponsoring this tournament but asked them not to use slippi, isn't that basically the equivalent of them requiring the event to be in person during the pandemic?

The event also had an Ultimate tournament, so I assume Nintendo expected the Melee portion to not happen since they originally canceled that part of it but then decided to do it via Slippi.

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MawiIe posted...

if nintendo was sponsoring this tournament but asked them not to use slippi, isn't that basically the equivalent of them requiring the event to be in person during the pandemic?

No, it would be requiring them to cancel the SSBM tournament.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Nobody really said this. We're just debating how much of an asshole move it actually is.

In my case, I don't think it's as much of one as other people seem to think since

A. Nintendo was partnering with them to promote the event in the first place, so their name was directly attached.
B. Nintendo reached out to them and asked them not to use Slippi for it and they refused.

The fact the rest of the event could have continued on and it was only the Melee/Slippi portion Nintendo didn't want, and the fact Nintendo was even working with them to support it, makes me less sympathetic.

People are free to disagree, and that's cool.

If A is true it's even more fuckin absurd that they shut it down

And B is already an asshole move (on Nintendo's part obv) in and of itself

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StealThisSheen posted...

The event also had an Ultimate tournament, so I assume Nintendo expected the Melee portion to not happen since they originally canceled that part of it but then decided to do it via Slippi.

This fact right here to me seems the crux of the argument. Regardless of how crappy it is for nintendo do this, it also doesn't seem on the level to get nintendo to sponsor it, then after the fact go "oh btw we're using this software you don't like" and not expect pushback. If the problem lies in the fact that the tourney would've had to be cancelled because the organizers were not forthcoming with nintendo, that seems just as much a consequence the organizers should have to bear as it does nintendo being pretty petty about this.

In other words, nintendo is absolutely being dumb, but the organizers were ALSO being dumb if they intentionally tried to get one over on nintendo.
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StealThisSheen posted...

The fact the rest of the event could have continued on and it was only the Melee/Slippi portion Nintendo didn't want, and the fact Nintendo was even working with them to support it, makes me less sympathetic.

This treats Melee and Ultimate like they're the same game. Part of the hype for Big House was that it was looking to be the biggest Netplay tournament since the pandemic started.

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"illegally copied versions of the game"

lmao everyone entering a Melee tournament has purchased the game and probably still owns the disc, who cares

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MZero posted...

"illegally copied versions of the game"

lmao everyone entering a Melee tournament has purchased the game and probably still owns the disc, who cares

it isn't like they can legally buy the game anyway !! !

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I mean you can legally buy the game but not in any way that benefits Nintendo
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Just wanted to take a moment after reading a few posts in this topic to ask a question I didn't think I would have to ask.

NOBODY actually thinks that there's a chance that Nintendo will rerelease Melee, right? Nobody here is that naive? Melee HD is not a realistic dream to have, Nintendo has zero interest whatsoever in such a product.

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To be fair Super Smash Bros. was released on the virtual console so there is always a chance if Nintendo ever goes that route again.

But yeah, the Super Smash Bros. series is made where a remaster/remake is illogical. It would be like hoping they would remake Mario Kart 64, it makes no sense since they might as well make a new game.

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As if Nintendo wouldn't do a Smash Bros. Anniversary release with the 64, Melee, and Brawl games at $60 with virtually no changes made to it.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

As if Nintendo wouldn't do a Smash Bros. Anniversary release with the 64, Melee, and Brawl games at $60 with virtually no changes made to it.

This I would say is not an imposibility, though still VERY unlikely. No chance whatsoever any official version of "Melee with online" is ever released.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Just wanted to take a moment after reading a few posts in this topic to ask a question I didn't think I would have to ask.

NOBODY actually thinks that there's a chance that Nintendo will rerelease Melee, right? Nobody here is that naive? Melee HD is not a realistic dream to have, Nintendo has zero interest whatsoever in such a product.

adoy. Thats why its a load of bullshit they continue to stifle Melee. No one cares if you dont support the scene (even though other developers would kill for a fanbase half as passionate) but just let us play your fucking game.

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This thread pretty much sums up how I feel about it: https://twitter.com/Dacidbro/status/1329524352971198464

No idea why any adult would be carrying water for this corporation that doesn't give a damn about anything except its own profits.

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https://mobile.twitter.com/HugS86/status/1329545121344327680

Its infuriating how Nintendo consistently acts like theyre trying to extend an olive branch to the competitive community when in reality theyve done nothing but hinder us. Slapping their logo on a few tournaments here and there does nothing except make the streamers play their stupid fucking Splatoon 2 ads. Leave us alone you nazis youll never stop me from wavelanding on platforms between stocks

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I would imagine this is just to avoid precedent, though I'm sure there are some counter examples or whatever.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

This I would say is not an imposibility, though still VERY unlikely. No chance whatsoever any official version of "Melee with online" is ever released.

Oh, that's what I meant by no changes.

They put in the least amount of effort into the Super Mario 3D Anniversary thing. They aren't ever giving Melee online support. And lord, have you seen the support they've given to even the latest Smash online? Bare minimum, still. Even if they put effort into giving Melee online, it won't be as good as Slippi or whatever, guaranteed.

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I want to see a Melee HD/Remastered that fixes all the glitches and bugs that the competitive community has built their lives around just so I can sit back and enjoy the inevitable meltdown that would follow.

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Waluigi1 posted...

I want to see a Melee HD/Remastered that fixes all the glitches and bugs that the competitive community has built their lives around just so I can sit back and enjoy the inevitable meltdown that would follow.

As someone who hasn't played Melee in over a decade: what's up with people like you? Do you enjoy jerking off to other people's imagined misery or something?

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For me, I'm in the camp of "Melee players need to move on" when it comes to EVO main stage or whatever equivalent will exist of that next year, as that's supposed to be for modern games. But for any other tournament, there's nothing wrong with it. People play older games all the time at tournaments.

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Eh I think games in EVO mostly 'move on' because interest in a specific fighting game naturally plummets over the years. The ones that stand the test of time are the outliers, and during EVO Melee was usually Top 3 in views I think, beating out many other newer games. Although company sponsorships is the main reason EVO exists so in that sense Melee might not be right for it.

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KamikazePotato posted...

As someone who hasn't played Melee in over a decade: what's up with people like you? Do you enjoy jerking off to other people's imagined misery or something?

As someone whose usually on his side of the fence but can only speak from personal experience, it's because so many prominent defenders of Melee are insufferable jackasses who treat other people like they're total morons for not bowing down to Melee. Obviously that's not the entire fandom, but it's enough of them and they're very loud. Melee is God, everyone who doesn't follow Melee is just a sellout to the man.

Melee is the MAGA of fighting games.

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I subscribe to schadenfreude in some cases, and that happening to the Melee fanbase would be one such instance.

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Okay, I showed entirely too much restraint in this topic because we were all shitting on Nintendo, but I am now just going to say it.

Smash players are very smelly.

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KamikazePotato posted...

As someone who hasn't played Melee in over a decade: what's up with people like you? Do you enjoy jerking off to other people's imagined misery or something?

That is kinda what I implied lol.

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They hated Jesus, MJ, and Kanye too

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Are we not supposed to hate Kanye??

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Youre not supposed to do anything but a large percentage of detractors will definitely change their minds about Kanye in the next 10-20 years

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MysticBrohan posted...

Youre not supposed to do anything but a large percentage of detractors will definitely change their minds about Kanye in the next 10-20 years

What are you implying exactly?

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That a lot of people like to pick on an easy target but with more time, distance, and perspective theyll see the net good hes brought/GOAT discography

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MysticBrohan posted...

That a lot of people like to pick on an easy target but with more time, distance, and perspective theyll see the net good hes brought/GOAT discography

Speaking of MAGA...I doubt that severely.

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yeah maybe not but they should

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

As someone whose usually on his side of the fence but can only speak from personal experience, it's because so many prominent defenders of Melee are insufferable jackasses who treat other people like they're total morons for not bowing down to Melee. Obviously that's not the entire fandom, but it's enough of them and they're very loud. Melee is God, everyone who doesn't follow Melee is just a sellout to the man.

Melee is the MAGA of fighting games.

so you hate Undertale too right

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Undertale fandom has calmed down to an absurd degree over the last few years since release.

Melee fans still at it since 2001.

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I'd like Smash players more if they bathed regularly tbh.

There's nothing unfair about that statement.

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I was probably the only melee player in my region that competed in all of the games, most fans do definitely like one or the other. I quit attending tournaments around the time ultimate came out though and I hear that one has more overlap so maybe it's better now. Regardless there's some merit to the fact that nintendo probably makes very little money on their new products from the melee scene.

That said I don't think that this makes this any less of a bad look. The smart thing to do was drop their association from the tournament; this was only going to cause negative press for them in any scenario.

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Okay to be fair Smash fans are no doubt worse than the usual fanbase

Still think this is really dumb from Nintendo, there's zero reason for them to do this and it only hurts PR

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I'm still angrier at Melee for ruining 2015 Games than Undertale

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The Smash fanbase is... something else, but to be fair they've been specifically engineered to be like that. Nintendo absolutely feeds into the neverending hype-reveal-hype cycle that has them never ever satisfied, and honestly the fanbase being annoying is irrelevant to a corporation pulling this kind of **** again.

It's not like Nintendo is gonna leave it at Melee too, they're making a very intentional shift away from the pro-consumer practices they at least pretended to have for a few years, and it's gonna have consequences far beyond Smash.

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You can dislike the general state of the Smash fanbase while also thinking this is a dogshit move by Nintendo.

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