Board 8 > i rank the WoW classes based on how much time i've played them

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banananor
11/08/20 9:39:55 PM
#1:


#12: Demon Hunter (12 hours, 43 minutes)
#11: Warlock (1 day, 16 hours, 38 minutes)
#10: Monk (3 days, 16 hours, 43 minutes)
#09: Rogue (4 days, 6 hours, 11 minutes)
#08: Priest (6 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes)
#07: Shaman (9 days, 7 hours, 16 minutes)
#06: Death Knight (13 days, 17 hours, 53 minutes)
#05: Hunter (13 days, 28 hours, 10 minutes)
#04: Druid (14 days, 22 hours, 33 minutes)
#03: Warrior (19 days, 14 hours, 9 minutes)
#02: Mage (27 days, 34 hours, 55 minutes)
#01: Paladin (118 days, 12 hours, 10 minutes)

AMA about WoW

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Anagram
11/08/20 11:00:51 PM
#2:


What class gets the most success in PUGs?

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GildedFool
11/08/20 11:06:08 PM
#3:


Anagram posted...
What class gets the most success in PUGs?
In dungeons? Rogue and it ain't close.

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banananor
11/09/20 12:13:37 AM
#4:


Anagram posted...
What class gets the most success in PUGs?
this is a good question, and one I could talk about for too long

the answer (as it is for any good question) is that it depends. it depends on how you define success- being desirable to groups? success in accomplishing your task? personal convenience? or something else? do you value lower stress roles? do you care more about the class's skill floor or skill ceiling? What level of intensity are you looking for?

in typical 5-man PvE content, being a tank instantly finds you groups and you're immediately in charge, for better or for worse. as GF implied, rogues do have an ability- "shroud of concealment"- that is uniquely useful to highly competent PUGs in the highest "mythic plus" tiers of content, but I'd still say that tanks have more success in general.

in raids, healers are always in demand- every group always has 2 dedicated tanks already

Other classes have their perks- but those go up and down from patch to patch.

I've played the game on and off since 2007, and little to no advice has been consistently true from TBC all the way through Shadowlands.

I'd say that ranged DPS usually has a better quality of life than melee dps, and "pure" dps classes are often better supported.

On the other hand- we're talking about PUGs. Paladins, hunters, mages, and rogues have the premier 'get of of fuckin dodge when the pug goes south' abilities in the game, in that order.

That's how I define success in PUGs

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azuarc
11/09/20 12:28:23 AM
#5:


Literally zero since they didn't exist at the time
T11. Demon Hunter
T11. Monk

Played to 20 once
10. Warlock
9. Warrior
8. Death Knight
7. Mage
6. Druid

Some little bit of experience
5. Paladin
4. Rogue
3. Shaman

ENORMOUS GULF

Characters I've leveled to 60 at least three times each, and played as my main at different points
2. Priest
1. Hunter

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banananor
11/09/20 12:40:09 AM
#6:


azuarc posted...
Literally zero since they didn't exist at the time
T11. Demon Hunter
T11. Monk
Both of those classes are worth playing. Demon Hunter in particular is a joy. I'm also partial to Brewmaster, and Windwalker has a couple of very satisfying buttons.

azuarc posted...
Characters I've leveled to 60 at least three times each, and played as my main at different points
2. Priest
1. Hunter
You have good taste. Which specs did you like, and when? Cataclysm-era Discipline and Survival are among my favorite MMO classes of all time

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foolm0r0n
11/09/20 12:59:10 AM
#7:


I only played in late vanilla up to end of BC

Classes I leveled from 0 to like 50:
Mage (mostly fire) >>>>>>>>>>>> Rogue (boring, don't even remember) > Paladin (blood elf) >>> Hunter (didn't get past like level 20)

Classes I only played at max level because I would log onto my friend's account to grind PvP cuz he only did PvE:
Warrior (slamlord) >>>>> Shaman (windfury)

Mage has the most fun balance of movement, positional abilities, and big risk/reward cast attacks so I liked it a lot. You could do a lot of optimizations and tricks to beat people who have way better gear than you. I really liked the Warrior too, so much burst DPS, but only because my friend got the best hammer and armor for him already. In general I played PvP way more than PvE, which is why I never actually leveled a character to max.

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LordoftheMorons
11/09/20 1:03:11 AM
#8:


I mained a warlock the whole time I played WoW (BC through the beginning of Legion, skipping Pandaria). I mostly played destro, but also a bit of demo. I did not enjoy what little experience I had with affliction.

I also had a druid at max level (mostly cat druid).

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azuarc
11/09/20 1:38:40 AM
#9:


banananor posted...
You have good taste. Which specs did you like, and when? Cataclysm-era Discipline and Survival are among my favorite MMO classes of all time

Priest: I prefer playing shadow, but it's not good for groups. Once I hit the "I'm at the level cap and I have to be a good little healer," I had a disc/holy hybrid. This was especially during vanilla/classic.

Hunter: Survival. Always survival. I even tried to play survival before 1.7, although that was awful and led to the one brief period where I specced marks instead. I've leveled so many hunters to cap, though, that I've had a chance to play with all the (pre-cata) builds. Up to a certain point, BM works best for that, but I find having a big red kitty doesn't usually make for good group play. When a group can actually appreciate the CC potential of a survival hunter, it's fantastic. Trap+trap+pet+sting means I can theoretically lock down 4 mobs without kiting.

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Steiner
11/09/20 2:29:30 AM
#10:


azuarc posted...
banananor posted...
You have good taste. Which specs did you like, and when? Cataclysm-era Discipline and Survival are among my favorite MMO classes of all time

Priest: I prefer playing shadow, but it's not good for groups. Once I hit the "I'm at the level cap and I have to be a good little healer," I had a disc/holy hybrid. This was especially during vanilla/classic.


good news, shadow priest is currently the strongest dps spec in the game
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banananor
11/09/20 11:54:53 AM
#11:


foolm0r0n posted...
Mage has the most fun balance of movement, positional abilities, and big risk/reward cast attacks so I liked it a lot. You could do a lot of optimizations and tricks to beat people who have way better gear than you.
Everything you say about mages is true- they're so smooth. It feels like they design abilities for mages and then find excuses to give other classes a more awkward version. They're flavorful, functional, with many abilities but rarely complex for the sake of complexity. I leveled my first character being entirely envious of mages in battlegrounds, and once I actually played one I felt so overpowered. Completely destroyed everything except hunters. If you quit during BC you never got to experience the joy of Spellsteal. Now that's a yoink and a half.

foolm0r0n posted...
I really liked the Warrior too, so much burst DPS, but only because my friend got the best hammer and armor for him already. In general I played PvP way more than PvE, which is why I never actually leveled a character to max.
Warriors back in the day had a gargantuan toolkit that rewarded skill and gear excellently. I think that's still the case, but the ability pruning in WoD and changes to stat scaling have made it more reasonable.

I didn't play the class until wrath, and was mostly a Prot juggernaut/stunfactory, but as Arms is the forever recommended PvP spec. My favorite single moment in my history with the game is when I rocketed a flag across warsong gulch to win the game at the last possible moment using a series of Charge -> Intercept -> Intervene -> Charge combined with Spell Reflect, Disarm, Enrage, and Interrupts to keep myself moving

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You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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banananor
11/09/20 12:11:20 PM
#12:


LordoftheMorons posted...
I mained a warlock the whole time I played WoW (BC through the beginning of Legion, skipping Pandaria). I mostly played destro, but also a bit of demo. I did not enjoy what little experience I had with affliction.
I've come around on warlocks. Never been a huge fan of dot-management classes, but I respect those that execute them well.

Warlocks seem to get revamped every other expansion (which is a turn-off), but when destro or demonology are powerful I get pulled back in a little. I think chaos bolt has to create the biggest numbers in the game, and that's worth something. Demonology got robbed when demon hunters stole back metamorphosis, but I like the 'summon one billion demons' thing they've got going on right now.

LordoftheMorons posted...
I also had a druid at max level (mostly cat druid).
Oh, druids. I want to like that class so badly. On paper they're perfect! The only class that can fill all 4 roles (tank, healer, ranged dps, melee dps), the best farming perks (instant flight form) and coolest aesthetics (customizable animal and tree forms). Community sense of humor is the best. I enjoyed all 3 specs in wrath, but at some point it stopped clicking for me

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banananor
11/09/20 12:18:14 PM
#13:


Steiner posted...
good news, shadow priest is currently the strongest dps spec in the game
This man speaks the truth! Spriests are going to be top diggity dog for the next 6 months at least.

While we're here, have one of my favorite warrior/shadow priest videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRGDcwOxBzY


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CoolCly
11/09/20 12:18:30 PM
#14:


looks like a lot of paladin time

how do you feel about the class's fun to play value over the years? I know it became godlike in Wrath, not sure what it its like now.

I made one in Classic a week ago to level through the human zones since I've never played a Paladin OR those zones before the cataclysm. My buddy that has mained Paladin since Wrath at the highest level of content and can't wait to bench his Hand of Rag/Scarab Lord/Thunderfury Classic Warrior to play Paladin in Classic BC when it comes out rolled a new Paladin with me. We made it through Westfall.

We both agreed this Paladin levelling experience was the most boring experience in our entire WoW careers... and it apparently never gets better in Classic.

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banananor
11/09/20 2:09:06 PM
#15:


CoolCly posted...
how do you feel about the class's fun to play value over the years? I know it became godlike in Wrath, not sure what it its like now.
Very good question, and oh man, do I have mixed feelings about paladin.

In General: Do not play a paladin in classic/tbc. It's boring as shit. The main reason I did so was because my parents' internet was garbage and I needed a class that wouldn't instantly die to 800 ping. Heavy armor, self healing, few active abilities, powerful auto-attacks, bubble-hearth... there's the ticket. (there's an iconic tbc era official forum meme about it that i might look up later) My first attempt was to create a troll axethrower, but after i realized that wasn't possible I ended up settling on paladin.

Ret: I don't really care about ret. It was overpowered in early wrath, but once it was toned down, the silly rotation was still fun. Then cataclysm saddled it with an awkward combo point mechanic, which wasn't tuned for fun until WoD and it's been shaky since. The spec is still okay today, but it's not my cup of tea. Utility still feels too low/passive.

Holy: Good since the creation of beacon of light (wotlk), and absolutely terrific since WoD. The niche of single/dual target healing, combined with good cooldowns and decent throughput and spot raid healing is extremely satisfying to me. There was a time when I'd say I was as good as any other non-professional paladin player in the world. My personal nadir was the period from the end of cataclysm to... I think maybe mists? Whatever period it was that they gave us "Holy Radiance"- a boring spammy AoE spell, sometimes with a HoT- to help us keep up in lame LFR. It didn't feel like paladin healing to me. I used to be envious of priest healers, but they've given paladins so many new toys over the years that I can't complain.

Protection: It's been up and down. Always functional. I think it's in a good spot now. Peak was probably Legion, but it hasn't sunk far since then. Nowadays I prefer leveling and questing as prot over ret- I feel invincible, can pull as many mobs as I want, and don't get dazed when punched in the butt. Gets me from point A to point B at the fastest possible mounted speed.

Overall, the class is always great in dungeons + raids. Healing is always solid in PvP. The class is always functional if boring while questing. The class respects your attention- it doesn't try to distract you with 500 balls to juggle when you'd rather be focusing on the fight and the rest of your team.

Tier lists will always go up and down, but for the last ten years paladins have always had a passing grade in tanking and healing. Rets can roll around in their wheelchairs for all I care.

I main paladin because I love both tanking and healing, love instant queues for any content, and love being good at what I do. When adding everything together paladin usually has the most fun combo of both roles. If there existed a half entertaining shockadin ranged dps spec i might not have ever leveled another class

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You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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turbopuns3
11/09/20 2:24:38 PM
#16:


100 Thousand Million Hours:

-Priest

First character to level cap, always maxed out level each expansion but never really played deeply beyond that

-Hunter

Briefly held main status immediately following launch of Cataclysm. Grinded heroics and first tier raid content and the only time I ever (briefly) took Arena seriously (feral was so broken):

-Druid

Had a level cap alt at some point during or after LK:

-Warrior
-Rogue

Leveled to at least 60 at least once

-Mage
-Paladin
-Shaman
-Death Knight (lol)

Maxed out around 30:

-Warlock

Literally never played:

-Demon Hunter
-Monk

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Peridiam
11/09/20 3:51:06 PM
#17:


My playtime ranked:

  1. Priest (vanilla main)
  2. Hunter (wotlk/cata main)
  3. Paladin (tbc main)
  4. Monk (mop/bfa main)
  5. Demon Hunter (legion main)
  6. Rogue (wod treasure/rep grinds)
  7. Shaman
  8. Druid
  9. Mage
  10. Warlock
  11. Warrior
  12. Death Knight
7-12 are pretty much interchangeable.

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banananor
11/09/20 5:02:07 PM
#18:


turbopuns3 posted...
100 Thousand Million Hours:

-Priest
Priests are glorious and were the bar other healing classes aimed for in all content

Do you have a favorite spec or expansion?

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banananor
11/09/20 5:04:03 PM
#19:


Peridiam posted...
My playtime ranked:

Priest (vanilla main)
Hunter (wotlk/cata main)
Paladin (tbc main)
Monk (mop/bfa main)
Demon Hunter (legion main)
Rogue (wod treasure/rep grinds)
It's neat that you're able to swap around. Do you have nostalgia for any of them?

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turbopuns3
11/09/20 7:34:41 PM
#20:


banananor posted...
Priests are glorious and were the bar other healing classes aimed for in all content

Do you have a favorite spec or expansion?

Priest wasn't my first, so I didn't experience any endgame content with the class until Wrath, which is my answer. I would've been mid-60s when Northrend launched, and that was when I chose to just make my priest my main over my hunter, and I never looked back.

Raiding as holy is really where my heart lies with the priest. Naxx and Ulduar specifically are my greatest memories of WoW. The timing was good because I was in college but not yet of drinking age, so yeah. Dorm life.

But man, I loved grinding battlegrounds as disc. I had stopped regularly raiding by ICC time but I was constantly carrying groups in AB. I never had elite arena gear or anything but I would get all the best pieces you could with honor and rep or whatever, so basically a world-smasher compared to people without resilience. Oh and Strand of the Ancients. I loved that BG actually. I remember being really proud of getting the achievement for defending without losing any walls before they nerfed it to not be nearly impossible for the horde to accomplish.

There is something to be said for shadow, though. Shadow is how I level and sometimes I would go through phases where I would just farm dungeons or pvp as shadow for a while for the fun of it. It's just flat out fun to play in any situation, basically. Once they gave shadow the dispersion ability, coupled with the glyph to make fade remove movement impairing effects...fun fun times.
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Peridiam
11/10/20 3:55:58 PM
#21:


banananor posted...
It's neat that you're able to swap around. Do you have nostalgia for any of them?
Mostly Priest since that was when I played WoW the most. Raiding vanilla Naxx in that first month was something else. I really enjoyed Holy, getting Benediction, the BWL runs too. Doing PUGs and knowing I was one of the best priests on the server and would try to challenge myself with weak groups to see how much I could keep people up as we ran through Scholo/Strat/UBRS/etc.

Seeing how Shadow is looking good for Shadowlands I may pickup Priest again.

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Peridiam
11/10/20 3:59:49 PM
#22:


That said playing Demon Hunter has probably been the most fun I've had in WoW. And it's mostly because of double jump and glide. Since I play so casually now, it's a total game changer for how much content I can do by myself, even just exploring the zones (before flying unlocks).

Vengeance DH during Legion was a blast.

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azuarc
11/10/20 4:07:46 PM
#23:


Seems like we have a bunch of priest-hunter players.

Priestess of the Moon when?

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CoolCly
11/11/20 12:01:18 AM
#24:


Aight, here we go

#13 Demon Hunter 0 Days 2 Hours 54 Minutes
#12 Paladin 0 Days 7 Hours 38 Minutes
#11 Monk 0 Days 10 Hours 15 Minutes
#10 Death Knight 1 Days 13 Hours 39 Minutes
#9 Hunter 3 Days 0 Hours 37 Minutes
#8 Bank 9 Days 22 Hours 6 Minutes (cash money)
#7 Druid 10 Days 6 Hours 3 Minutes (BC alt)
#6 Warlock 11 Days 23 Hours 58 Minutes (Cata alt)
#5 Shaman 18 Days 2 Hours 26 Minutes (Classic alt)
#4 Mage 40 Days 8 Hours 54 Minutes (Classic Main, Cata alt)
#3 Priest 105 Days 6 Hours 17 Minutes (BC Main, WotLK, Cata, MoP alt )
#2 Rogue 141 Days 19 Hours 24 Minutes (Cata / MoP Main, Legion/BfA....Main I guess)
#1 Warrior 157 Days 5 Hours 54 Minutes (Vanilla / WotLK Main, BC, Cata / MoP alt)

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CoolCly
11/11/20 12:31:00 AM
#25:


Character list also:



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Commodore
11/11/20 2:49:32 AM
#26:


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CoolCly
11/11/20 4:09:10 AM
#27:


it's exceptionally skilled at holding things, and mailing things, and talking to the auctioneers

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MoogleKupo141
11/11/20 5:36:21 AM
#28:


I have a Draenei elemental Shaman I played a million hours on and then dont know... I think I level boosted a Goblin Hunter (?) to 80 or whatever during Draenor and played that some. Thats probably my second most played.

I may be done with the game forever though. I completely skipped the last expansion for the first time ever because it sounded like a bummer and Im just not sure Ill ever go back... but part of me is sad to abandon my main dude since Ive spent so much time with him.
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TotallyNotMI
11/11/20 8:29:59 AM
#29:


Feral Druid / Fire Mage were my mains.

I miss it.

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banananor
11/11/20 12:39:21 PM
#30:


turbopuns3 posted...
But man, I loved grinding battlegrounds as disc.
Disc PvP was pretty amazing. I honestly don't keep up with things much anymore, but I assume it still is

Haven't spent much time with it since they transformed disc from 'the bubble spec' to the 'punch to heal' spec. Penance and PW:S are the 2 most satisfying healing spells in the game tho

turbopuns3 posted...
Oh and Strand of the Ancients. I loved that BG actually. I remember being really proud of getting the achievement for defending without losing any walls before they nerfed it to not be nearly impossible for the horde to accomplish.
dam son, iirc that bg was ridiculously imbalanced in favor of the alliance

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banananor
11/11/20 12:45:00 PM
#31:


oh, and i'm absolutely nostalgic for the naxx/ulduar time period in wrath.

that felt like about the time when the game was really executing on its potential and things were coming together in terms of gameplay, lore, etc

not my top expansion, but pretty high up there when i'm wearing my red goggles

CoolCly posted...
Character list also:
Mannoroth and K'J are historically pretty serious servers iirc. Did you push PvE or PvP content?

And do you recommend classic?

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You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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turbopuns3
11/11/20 12:49:37 PM
#32:


Strand wasn't necessarily balanced against horde in terms of winning and losing, but the achievement for defending without losing a wall was busted because they originally had it so that alliance went on offense first every time as opposed to randomness. So alliance could get a quick offensive victory in 3-4 minutes and only have to hold off horde for that duration to get the achievement. But horde couldn't shorten their defensive round in that way so you had to hold them at the beach for a full 10 minutes.
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banananor
11/11/20 12:52:04 PM
#33:


MoogleKupo141 posted...
I have a Draenei elemental Shaman I played a million hours on and then dont know... I think I level boosted a Goblin Hunter (?) to 80 or whatever during Draenor and played that some. Thats probably my second most played.
Elemental shaman has contenders for my favorite spell sound and visual effects in the game. Those instant-cast guaranteed-crit Lava Burps aren't the absolute biggest numbers in the game (chaos bolt takes the honor), but they're close and man does that sound rock. Plus, at some point they updated lightning bolt to actually clap like thunder and look like lightning. sometimes the little things are nice

not to mention, executing that thundershock knockback on eye of the storm's flag is a unique experience. I've never feared a character's silhouette more than those crystal shoulderpads from the shaman pvp set in wrath

I may be done with the game forever though. I completely skipped the last expansion for the first time ever because it sounded like a bummer and Im just not sure Ill ever go back... but part of me is sad to abandon my main dude since Ive spent so much time with him.
Yeah, I honestly can't recommend coming back. It had been a bit under 2 years for me- I logged in for the free weekend to get these /played numbers and test out the new classes. Yes, I do recognize that this thread is counterproductive

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You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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turbopuns3
11/11/20 12:53:38 PM
#34:


banananor posted...
oh, and i'm absolutely nostalgic for the naxx/ulduar time period in wrath.

that felt like about the time when the game was really executing on its potential and things were coming together in terms of gameplay, lore, etc

Yep. Achievements were the new hotness, death knights were the first new class added to the game, challenge modes for raids became a solidified thing, Dungeon Finder added (hoo boy talk about a game changer...and it was still a positive at that time...), heirlooms, the list goes on...glyphs too...
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azuarc
11/11/20 3:37:00 PM
#35:


Disagree strongly. Beginning of Wrath was what pushed me away from the game. Naxx was a recycled dungeon. Once you cleared the outdoor zones, the instances were a waste of time because gearing for Naxx was pointless. The dungeon finder absolutely ruined the game for anyone who wanted to run instances unless you were a healer or a tank. I loved the outdoor questing in Northrend, but after that point, Lich King was pretty terrible. We'd be waiting months for an actual raid besides two one-off encounters, and when it hit, I didn't care for Ulduar. It'd be over a year before we got another *real* raid, unless you count whatever TGT was, but I'd already quit the game by that point.

I basically shifted my entire gameplay toward a new character that was intended to acquire one achievement every day, just to see how long I could keep up the streak, because I didn't have anything else worth doing.

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CoolCly
11/11/20 4:02:42 PM
#36:


banananor posted...
Mannoroth and K'J are historically pretty serious servers iirc. Did you push PvE or PvP content?


PVE!

My best friend and I ran our own guild on Mannoroth called Immoral Victory in Naxx25 then joined another guild called Oblivion in Ulduar. Then we tried Immoral Victory again in Cata's first tier, and then in Firelands transferred to Kil'Jaeden and joined The Flying Hellfish. When that died in MoP we joined Roadrunners on the same server. I wonder if there's somewhere that records progress for guilds over the years.

Ulduar and Firelands were the bomb. My favourite two tiers for sure.

Mannoroth has a special place in my heart. It's famous for being the server the Illegal Danish video was made, based on a real guild on the server called the Forbidden Donut. The well dressed Tauren in red at Club Thrall at the end of the video was especially well known in the server, named Menchi. You could always find him dancing in his same red outfit as in Club Thrall. He had his mainstay spots like the arches to the flight pad in Dalaran, but it was always fun to run into him in some remote spot and find him dancing. When WotLK came out, I got to Agmar's Hammer in the Dragonblight for the first time and there, out front of the Inn, would be level 73 Menchi dancing away. I never actually saw him questing... i guess he just danced his way to 80.

I remember one time we somehow got him to come to a Malygos run, and he promptly died. The azure drake mount dropped so we gave it to him. Good times.


---
The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
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CoolCly
11/11/20 4:32:44 PM
#37:


As for Classic - it is a lot of fun. It's not nearly as painful as I was expecting - most quality of life issues that they fixed later are really not that much of a problem, and often add to the experience.

I'm strongly of the belief that removing too much friction from doing things in a game makes the experience a lot less satisfying. When I play WoW now, I feel no sense of progression or accomplishment in anything, and I feel like that in a lot of games. The social aspect is often missing because you just join a group and then leave it as soon as you are done, the other players might as well have been bots. Character progression is like a constant IV drip of points and marginal gear upgrades. world quests just giving you the same gear again but slightly higher item level infuriates me. My favourite part of the game is seeing "oh, that sick piece of gear can be obtained by killing that boss / completing that quest / maxing out that rep / crafting / making a darkmoon deck etc etc, I'll work towards that and feel satisfied when I get it!" and that's not how I feel playing retail wow at all now. Classic WoW was really good about that, even if there is a lot of junk gear that isn't used for anything at all.

So much of classic holds up. The classes are actually fairly well balanced (though some specs are unplayable). The art all holds up. The zones are honestly all beautifully crafted. I enjoy walking around these zones more than the zones they make today, honestly.

The gameplay and mechanics are all relatively easy. If you've played wow at a decent level then anything in Classic will seem easy. But that kinda makes sense - it was made at the time for what players were used to, and Blizzard has been adding more and more challenging ideas and mechanics over time. Players get used to those mechanics and so harder mechanics come next. When you go back to Classic... it's pretty easy. The only difficult part is if *everyone else* in the group can do the mechanics... which can be problem. Somehow, I think the average skill of the Classic player is rather low compared to many actively playing retail. So sometimes a group can struggle from that. But it is what it is.

The social aspect is important. You actually do have to look for groups in trade chat and its valuable to keep track of good healers and tanks to do groups with later. But you kinda have to put in your own work here. If you treat it like retail and every group is disposable, then you won't make any friends and might have a tough time getting groups. Like many, I think the Dungeon and Raid Finders have destroyed the social aspect of WoW of meeting new people, and Classic brings that back, but it only really goes as far as you are willing to take it. If you join a guild and make friends you could have a pretty good experience.

That's my biggest regret in classic. Instead of rolling with some real life friends, I chose to roll on a server with a 5 person group of extremely high level raiders (top 100 guild mythic raiders). These guys are the top of their game and they know it... and they are pretty dismissive of players they think aren't very good. I just played exclusively with them during levelling and at the end game dungeon stage, and then 3 of them quit. So I never really made any friends during that early part of the game and didn't end up in a guild. The 1 remaining guy had a connection with someone in a guild, so we joined that guild. The people in this guild (except for a couple really good players that are basically holding the entire guilds hand through everything) are not very good, and I don't particularly enjoy hanging around with them, so that hasn't been a good experience. The 1 remaining guy is *especially* contemptuous of bad players so he hates these people, but won't leave because of that connection he has here. So basically I feel like I should have cut myself loose from these guys long ago and gone my own way and found a group of people that I like to play with. That's kind of the whole point after all - Classic is a great way to forge those social connections, and I didn't do that here.

But I'm pretty much done with Classic at this point. I don't really want to keep playing it so I'm not going to try finding a new guild. I'm debating on if I want to do BC. It's very likely I will play when BC comes out somewhere fresh, since the launch of an expansion is always the best part of WoW and I love the initial gearing process. I might even take a week off work and go hard for a little while. I'm doubtful I'll commit to raiding throughout all of the tiers though - I honestly just don't care enough to commit that time every week for months or years. I cleared MC and BWL a ton of times and did AQ40 one time and I'm just good on that now.

---
The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
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turbopuns3
11/11/20 4:37:42 PM
#38:


azuarc posted...
Naxx was a recycled dungeon.

I mean, fair, but it was still a new experience for 99% of players at the time, so eh.

azuarc posted...
Once you cleared the outdoor zones, the instances were a waste of time because gearing for Naxx was pointless.

What do you mean that gearing for Naxx was pointless? That feels like a really broad stroke and it's not clear what point you are trying to make.

azuarc posted...
The dungeon finder absolutely ruined the game for anyone who wanted to run instances unless you were a healer or a tank.

I recall a very different experience when Dungeon Finder released. I know the problems it caused ultimately but when it was new the only downside I can think of was players would die in a dungeon and not know how to run their ghost back to the instance because they hadn't ever walked there before (but that wouldn't really manifest as an issue until time had passed.)

azuarc posted...
We'd be waiting months for an actual raid besides two one-off encounters, and when it hit, I didn't care for Ulduar.

Repeating the point about Naxx I guess. And as for Maly, the hate on that encounter often felt misplaced and curmudgeon-y to me. And Sarth 3D was a neat challenge.

As for just not likinf Ulduar, I mean that's a take. I think it's like top 3 most beloved raids in the history of the game so shrug
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banananor
11/11/20 5:01:11 PM
#39:


azuarc posted...
Disagree strongly. Beginning of Wrath was what pushed me away from the game. Naxx was a recycled dungeon. Once you cleared the outdoor zones, the instances were a waste of time because gearing for Naxx was pointless. The dungeon finder absolutely ruined the game for anyone who wanted to run instances unless you were a healer or a tank. I loved the outdoor questing in Northrend, but after that point, Lich King was pretty terrible. We'd be waiting months for an actual raid besides two one-off encounters, and when it hit, I didn't care for Ulduar. It'd be over a year before we got another *real* raid, unless you count whatever TGT was, but I'd already quit the game by that point.
Wrath certainly had its weaknesses, and while I'm nostalgic for it I certainly wouldn't call it the best. But it's respectably close.

Naxx 2.0 and Trial of the Crusader were both disappointing as 'ultimate' raids, but they were excellent, and perhaps even ideal as stepping-stone or introductory raids.

I'll even defend Naxx further- something less than 2% of the playerbase had even stepped foot into Naxx 1.0 in vanilla. It was an ultra hardcore raid released mere months before the burning crusade invalidated everything with hellfire peninsula greens.

A total of 23 guilds had killed Kel'thuzad 1.0. For literally everyone else, Naxx 2.0 was a fantastic experience. Yes, after Hellfire greens had made raiders salty, they went in the opposite direction for wrath. If you were a super hardcore TBC raider, you could use your legendary warglaives in the first tier of Wrath. And that, evidently, made a separate group of raiders salty.

If you wanted an excuse to gear up in dungeons you could aim for an Immortal run- that was certainly one of the most nerve-wracking raids in the history of wow

Some of this is up to personal taste, but Ulduar is considered by the community to be the best raid of its time, and Icecrown Citadel was also considered fairly good. Those patches, with those stepping stones, either from Naxx --> Ulduar, or Trial --> Icecrown, were halcyon times for the game.

Yes, Trial was brief, had no trash, and some of the fights were rather straightforward. But that's what you want in last tier's raid.

The first real mistake of Wrath was Trial's 4-lockout system that seemed almost intentionally designed to create burnout. I took a break then, too, and came back once ICC was released. The second real mistake of Wrath was that Blizzard didn't give Ulduar time to breathe, and released the next tier (Trial) too quickly. This meant many people didn't see much of Ulduar, and the gap between ToC and ICC was too long.

Basically, if it wasn't for the mishandling of ToC, wrath would have been much closer to the running for best expansion of the game

As an addendum, I think the Dungeon Finder was a great feature. I understand nostalgia, but nothing sucked more than spamming the chat channels for 45 minutes to find a group, hoofing it to the dungeon, then having the tank disconnect after the first boss. LFG changed the game in a way that made it less prone to producing EVE-online-esque dramatic tales, but better for actual players who weren't guild officers

LFR, on the other hand, went too far. But that's a topic for another time

Lastly... don't forget about wintergrasp! That was a great idea and well executed

---
You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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azuarc
11/11/20 5:01:52 PM
#40:


turbopuns3 posted...
What do you mean that gearing for Naxx was pointless? That feels like a really broad stroke and it's not clear what point you are trying to make.

I walked into Naxx with random greens from questing, and no need to do much of anything other than show up. I'm fine with the "show up and raid" part, but there should have been some incentive to get dungeon blues first. I think only one tight group that included our MT ran instances. As a hunter, the most important fight for me to know was Nerub'anken (or whatever he was called) and I'd mastered that fight in vanilla, even though I seem to recall there was something different in LK-era Naxx...maybe Aspect of the Pack mechanics? Whatever it was, there was no friction transitioning into Naxx and I was basically carried through the rest as long as I stood where I needed to.

turbopuns3 posted...
I recall a very different experience when Dungeon Finder released. I know the problems it caused ultimately but when it was new the only downside I can think of was players would die in a dungeon and not know how to run their ghost back to the instance because they hadn't ever walked there before (but that wouldn't really manifest as an issue until time had passed.)

I didn't care for the dungeon finder when it was introduced in BC, but I also didn't care for the new design paradigm of "make everything like Scarlet Monastery" that Blizzard adopted. LK deviated from that a little, but I never got to find out because I literally never got to join a dungeon group. Unless I went out of my way to actively recruit people the old-fashioned way -- and people rarely wanted to build a group around a hunter -- I was stuck outside sitting in the queue. If I waited to get to the front of the queue, something would happen with some prima donna healer or clueless tank or w/e and the rest of us would be stuck without. This wasn't nearly as bad in BC because people hadn't acclimated to it yet, and it also didn't go like with launch. But by LK's release, those problems were manifold.

turbopuns3 posted...
Repeating the point about Naxx I guess. And as for Maly, the hate on that encounter often felt misplaced and curmudgeon-y to me. And Sarth 3D was a neat challenge.

As for just not likinf Ulduar, I mean that's a take. I think it's like top 3 most beloved raids in the history of the game so shrug

I didn't hate Maly. It just couldn't carry raiding expectations by itself. It was basically the new Onyxia.

Ulduar, yeah, I know other people feel differently, but I was so put-off by the game at that point that I already had one foot out the door, and then the very first encounter was some bullshit vehicle encounter that forced us to completely abandon our entire user interface in favor of some clunky crap that never really made any sense to me because I joined the raid the second week they were running it. We eventually cleared up to Yogg, but my heart wasn't in it any more. Ulduar's probably perfectly fine, but it simply came down too late. It would be like getting Blackwing's Lair, but Molten Core was replaced with a second version of Blackwing Depths. And then there was no Ahn'qiraj, but some day way down the line you got Naxx and it was amazing if you were still around to enjoy it.

---
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banananor
11/11/20 5:11:51 PM
#41:


azuarc posted...
I walked into Naxx with random greens from questing
Do I dare mention that people being carried has happened for the entire lifetime of the game? I think it was an even more common occurrence in vanilla/BC

azuarc posted...
I didn't care for the dungeon finder when it was introduced in BC
Your memory is failing you! The dungeon finder wasn't introduced until late wrath- patch 3.3.0, Icecrown Citadel

Your experience of Ulduar is valid. It sounds like you personally didn't have a great time in WotLK, just because of where your life was, what your expectations for the game were, and the timing of when you were playing. I do the same thing- there have been some good expansions I just wasn't that into, and some crummier expansions that I had a blast in because my friends were active and engaged

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You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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banananor
11/11/20 5:14:36 PM
#42:


Regardless, you just happened to hit one of those mildly contentious wow-related topics i enjoy debating every once in a while

i knew a lot of people who loved vanilla above all else, and then others who loved tbc above all else. those people i think tried to take off for aion, which i haven't checked in on for a while

if i had to pick as hopefully objectively as possible a 'best expansion', it would probably be legion

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You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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turbopuns3
11/11/20 6:48:07 PM
#43:


Actually if I'm being honest with myself, Cataclysm was my favorite and I just regret not staying more deeply involved with the game during that time so I tend to think of Wrath first due to immense levels of nostalgia.
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azuarc
11/11/20 7:30:14 PM
#44:


banananor posted...
Your experience of Ulduar is valid. It sounds like you personally didn't have a great time in WotLK, just because of where your life was, what your expectations for the game were, and the timing of when you were playing.

Generally accurate. Had little to do with my personal life and more to do with my class and my position within the guild and simply how long wow had been going at that point. When what you're doing takes a sudden verve from clearing Hyjal and learning Sunwell to doing nothing for six months other than one instance each week that we quickly had on farm, that interest needs to be replaced by something. The outdoors of Lich King was amazing compared to what came before, but it's a lot like where I'm at now in Genshin Impact -- the overworld's donezo. I can only do daily quests for so long.

Anyway, thank you for respecting my position.

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banananor
11/11/20 8:27:33 PM
#45:


azuarc posted...
Generally accurate. Had little to do with my personal life and more to do with my class and my position within the guild and simply how long wow had been going at that point. When what you're doing takes a sudden verve from clearing Hyjal and learning Sunwell to doing nothing for six months other than one instance each week that we quickly had on farm, that interest needs to be replaced by something.
Makes sense, and I hadn't thought of it that way before. there were clearly growing pains at blizzard trying to create content that could satisfy both the ultra-skilled and the newbies. It took a few more xpacs for them to settle on today's four difficulty settings: LFR -> flex normal -> flex heroic -> static mythic

turbopuns3 posted...
Actually if I'm being honest with myself, Cataclysm was my favorite and I just regret not staying more deeply involved with the game during that time so I tend to think of Wrath first due to immense levels of nostalgia.
Cataclysm had its good parts.

Class design was bold and experimental, and new mechanics ranged from fantastic (hunter) to okay (paladin). Every class received cool new toys without forcing us to run out of keybinds (in MoP it got to be too much). The relative homogeneity of classes was novel. The low-level questing experience was cleaned up, and raid fight mechanics continued to improve incrementally. This expansion was probably when I PvPed the most and leveled the most alts from scratch, because it was fun. Firelands was a satisfying raid, and I'm nostalgic for BWD because I raided with friends.

There were quite a few downsides.

Because so much dev time was spent revamping the low-level experience, leveling from 80 to 85 was long, repetitive, linear, and frankly unfun. Max-level world/solo content was nonexistent- it was replaced by grinding 5-player dungeons over and over and over again. Lore in general and Deathwing himself wee massive disappointments. The 1-60 revamp had questionable aspects to it as well, but I won't get into that. The Zul'Agains were okay but not what we needed.

Blizzard had issues with difficulty settings at first, this time designing for the skillful players. Max-level dungeons were tuned for hardcore raiders with decent gear and coordinated ability use. Less experienced players banged their heads against the wall for a few weeks, saw there was nothing else in the game world for them to do, and unsubscribed. Cataclysm has the dubious honor of being the first expansion in which subscription numbers dropped

All of this could have been forgiven.... if not for Dragon Soul- the worst raid ever created- and the sloppy introduction of LFR. I've mentioned before that LFR killed class design for a few expansions. It took 3 more for blizzard to get it right

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Steiner
11/12/20 7:20:28 AM
#46:


banananor posted...
All of this could have been forgiven.... if not for Dragon Soul- the worst raid ever created- and the sloppy introduction of LFR. I've mentioned before that LFR killed class design for a few expansions. It took 3 more for blizzard to get it right

can you elaborate on this point?

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turbopuns3
11/12/20 8:44:02 AM
#47:


I was just so damn excited by the new old world paired with the massive expansion of race/class combinations that came with it. Despite maining my priest all through Wrath, I immediately created a troll druid day 1 of Cata and didn't even log into my priest until I'd maxed out my druid and started grinding heroic 5 mans.

And I LOVED the difficulty of the initial 5 man heroics in Cata. People actually died in dungeons and had to coordinate. Good stuff.

Dual specialization, at last, too.
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DoomTheGyarados
11/12/20 9:44:48 AM
#48:


Let's see what mine looks like.

# 2 Hunter - 71 days, 15 hours, 52 minutes
# 1 Shaman - 620 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes

I'll stop there <_<


---
Sir Chris
Doom The Kanto Saga - Animated Series - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH4wNFCrLM
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banananor
11/12/20 12:58:52 PM
#49:


Steiner posted...
can you elaborate on this point?
absolutely. i'll preface this by saying i'm being a little melodramatic

short version- LFR motivated Blizzard to put every class on perfect parity and ability to carry a "stacked" raid. A raid is "stacked" when most/every player in a role in the raid was the same class. As a result of this, some of my favorite classes/specs suddenly lost what made them specialized or unique

longer version- LFR was designed to be extremely easy, but you also had to take into consideration that ~40% of the raid was going to be AFK, ungeared, and/or unskilled by design. Every class had to potentially provide everything

every dps had to have an interrupt, a speed boost, a stun, a 90 second dps cooldown, a 180 second dps cooldown, a "combo point builder", a "combo point spender", a "survive one nuke" ability, and a spammable AoE attack. Cleave specialists were gone, burst dps specialists were neutered, support dps specialists were gone, 'execute' dps was gone.

every healer had to have a 180 second healing cooldown, a dispel, a mana efficient heal, a fast heal, a high throughput heal, and a spammable AoE heal. most importantly the AoE heal. Every healing class was now going to spam their AoE heal 80% of the time if they cared about performance. tank healing specialists were neutered, melee group healers were neutered, spot healers were neutered, and shield healers were gone

It started getting better in Warlords of Draenor, when 'flexible raid sizes' and 20-man mythics were introduced, lowering the reliance on LFR. It wasn't truly fixed until Legion, when the new and improved Group Finder and cross-realm raiding made LFR functionally obsolete. The designers were finally free to focus on class fantasy rather than functional symmetry.

I'm also just a sucker for teamwork and complementary playstyles, especially when healing. And the LFR era was a mediocre time for healers

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You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured.
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banananor
11/12/20 1:03:38 PM
#50:


DoomTheGyarados posted...
Let's see what mine looks like.

# 2 Hunter - 71 days, 15 hours, 52 minutes
# 1 Shaman - 620 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes

I'll stop there <_<
My man! Those were the kind of numbers I was expecting when I checked mine, to be honest. I suppose I lag because I dropped out for some content lulls/bad patches. What was your favorite time period?


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