Poll of the Day > Mandatory quarantine camps being set up in New Zealand!

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Gamerz4Justice
10/30/20 6:27:50 PM
#1:


Finally a country is taking the right steps by setting up mandatory quarantine camps. I made a topic several months ago saying how important it would be to have these type of safety camps set up to stop this extremely deadly virus and most of you scoffed at it. I cant wait for Biden to be elected next week, so hopefully these types of camps are brought here and we can finally win this war against the coronavirus.
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Ogurisama
10/30/20 6:30:35 PM
#2:


I thought New Zealand has been doing this for months already
They have the lowest community spread rate in the world I believe

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adjl
10/30/20 6:32:09 PM
#3:


I feel like commandeering a hotel would be more economical than building a whole camp, but the basic concept is sound. Can't have people breaking self-isolation mandates if you lock them in, after all.

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Gamerz4Justice
10/30/20 6:32:39 PM
#4:


Ogurisama posted...
I thought New Zealand has been doing this for months already
They have the lowest community spread rate in the world I believe
I just found out about them today. Just goes to show how much Trump has suppressed the news so people dont get to see how to truly stop this virus.
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zebatov
10/30/20 6:33:03 PM
#5:


Extremely deadly? News to me.

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Gamerz4Justice
10/30/20 6:40:07 PM
#6:


zebatov posted...
Extremely deadly? News to me.
Over a million people have died from the coronavirus and the true numbers are probably much higher than that. So yeah, its extremely deadly. Get your troll nonsense out of my topic.
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zebatov
10/30/20 6:41:13 PM
#7:


Sorry, but a high-90s survival-rate isnt extremely deadly.

A King Cobra bite is extremely deadly, for comparison. Like, you will die within half-an-hour if you dont receive an anti-venom.

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Noop_Noop
10/30/20 6:50:05 PM
#8:


i just got done with managed isolation and they let me do it in my townhouse

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Hop103
10/30/20 6:51:32 PM
#9:


Ogurisama posted...
I thought New Zealand has been doing this for months already
They have the lowest community spread rate in the world I believe


This is more about authoritarian leaders oppressing the populace with these lockdowns in Europe and New Zealand, those places have no checks and balances to keep their governments from going off the rails, which is why there is so much chaos going on.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
10/30/20 6:52:42 PM
#10:


I thought we were opposed to forcing people into camps.

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Jen0125
10/30/20 6:54:27 PM
#11:


South Korea does something similar. They have hotels designated for mandatory 2 week quarantine when you enter the country.

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Hop103
10/30/20 6:57:32 PM
#12:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I thought we were opposed to forcing people into camps.


There are lots of crazy, dictator loving people, mostly from Europe who think this is ok. They should stop supporting the EU and any other crazy politicians who go this far, this is worse than NYC.
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adjl
10/30/20 11:02:25 PM
#13:


zebatov posted...
Sorry, but a high-90s survival-rate isnt extremely deadly.

it's about as deadly as you can get while still being this easily transmissible. Much higher, and people die too quickly to spread it to other people (basically what happened with the Black Plague), plus people do much more to stop the spread, ultimately limiting its ability to affect large numbers of people. Ebola was much deadlier, but ultimately killed far fewer people during its 2014 outbreak (~11,000 over two years, out of ~28,000 cases) because it wasn't able to spread.

Covid's very much a perfect storm in the balance it strikes between virulence and lethality. The case fatality rate isn't very high, but it spreads incredibly easily, such that its low mortality rate is still more than enough for it to rack up a huge body count.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I thought we were opposed to forcing people into camps.

Provided it's for a reasonable length of time, living conditions are acceptable, and there's a concrete, justifiable reason for doing it, I don't really see it as a problem. Isolating for two weeks upon entering the region is what any responsible, law-abiding person would be doing anyway, so it's not going to change their experience by much. It just makes the irresponsible, non-compliant people easier to deal with, limiting their ability to endanger the public.

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likehelly
10/30/20 11:05:11 PM
#14:


zebatov posted...
Sorry, but a high-90s survival-rate isnt extremely deadly.

A King Cobra bite is extremely deadly, for comparison. Like, you will die within half-an-hour if you dont receive an anti-venom.
how many people die from a cobra bite per year vs how many people die from covid per month

the higher number means one is deadlier.


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Unbridled9
10/30/20 11:21:12 PM
#15:


Corona virus isn't deadly, but it is INFECTIOUS. That's the problem. If it could be easily contained and could only be spread by contaminated drinking water (as a hypothetical example) but nothing else about it changed this virus wouldn't even be worth reporting. If the virus has a 1% chance of being lethal then it's not really TOO big a concern if you catch it (especially if it requires other things to get to that 1%), but if you have, say, 1,000,000 cases that's 10,000 dead!

The real problem is that our pathetic brains are really bad when it comes to large numbers, scale, and the like. We hear a number like '1,000,000 dead worldwide' and imagine people keeling over in streets while ignoring the 30,000,000 recovered or the fact that the world population is 7,800,000,000.

Even if Coronavirus was 10 times as deadly as it is now it wouldn't be enough to drop the world population by .1. Even when you scale it up and assume EVERYBODY in the world catches it you're still looking at barely a dent in the global population.

The problem isn't it's lethality. The problem is that it spreads so easily and a person can be a spreader without realizing it.

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wolfy42
10/30/20 11:24:46 PM
#16:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I thought we were opposed to forcing people into camps.


Parents have been doing it to their kids for decades every summer.

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papercup
10/30/20 11:26:22 PM
#17:


Unbridled9 posted...
Corona virus isn't deadly,

Tell that to the 1.2 million+ dead

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Unbridled9
10/30/20 11:28:26 PM
#18:


papercup posted...
Tell that to the 1.2 million+ dead

Sure. It's not deadly. It's infectious. I don't see what's hard to grasp about that.

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Jen0125
10/30/20 11:29:13 PM
#19:


Unbridled9 posted...
Sure. It's not deadly. It's infectious. I don't see what's hard to grasp about that.

If it was just infectious and not deadly people wouldn't be dying from it.

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Unbridled9
10/30/20 11:32:42 PM
#20:


Jen0125 posted...
If it was just infectious and not deadly people wouldn't be dying from it.

No. I didn't say that. I didn't say it couldn't kill people at all. I said it's danger came from it's high infection rate. That means it's relatively small lethality rate gets applied to millions of people; of which some will eventually get those few unlucky rolls and die.

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wolfy42
10/30/20 11:37:20 PM
#21:


I believe if you are under 40 your chances of dying from covid are around the same as rolling 3 18's when creating a character.

I've rolled 4 in the past though, so yeah.

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zebatov
10/30/20 11:40:48 PM
#22:


likehelly posted...
how many people die from a cobra bite per year vs how many people die from covid per month

the higher number means one is deadlier.

I view it based on survivability. 150,000 people die every day, mostly due to cardiovascular disease. Its a bad virus, but I dont consider it especially deadly.


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Unbridled9
10/30/20 11:41:00 PM
#23:


Think of it like this. If you played D&D and could only miss a foe on a nat 1 there's still that small chance you'll miss. That doesn't mean your +20 sword is suddenly worthless garbage. Just that you missed. You fight enough battles and the number of times you miss WILL go up. Fight enough and eventually you'll miss 1,000,000 times even if you only miss on a nat 1. The problem isn't that the GM is throwing legendary dragons at you, but tiny goblins that can only hit on a nat 20 for scratch damage but there's MILLIONS of them! Eventually you'll not only miss 1,000,000 times but the goblins will get enough nat 20's to take you down even if, individually, the odds of them killing you is pathetically small.

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SKARDAVNELNATE
10/31/20 12:22:52 AM
#24:


adjl posted...
Provided it's for a reasonable length of time, living conditions are acceptable, and there's a concrete, justifiable reason for doing it, I don't really see it as a problem.
Right, because the other times this has happened in history they were up front about the poor living conditions and flimsy rationale for the camps to exist from the onset.

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adjl
10/31/20 12:24:01 PM
#25:


zebatov posted...
I view it based on survivability. 150,000 people die every day, mostly due to cardiovascular disease. Its a bad virus, but I dont consider it especially deadly.

The ultimate question is "is this dangerous enough to warrant doing something about it?", which mostly boils down to considering what will happen if something isn't done. King Cobra bites have a high mortality rate, but said bites are rare enough that all you really need to mitigate that risk is to put up some signage and make sure ambulances carry some antivenom in areas where they're more common. Most people infected with Covid won't die, no, but that doesn't mean it's not going to kill a ton of people if it's allowed to infect people freely. Again, see Ebola: Mortality rate of nearly 50%, but it killed less than 1% of what Covid has already managed in a third of the time (presuming everyone - including China - has presented accurate death numbers instead of understating them to look better).

Put differently, I've been playing Disgaea 5 a lot recently, and one of the most effective ways to farm in endgame content is to use an ability from the Sage class that has a 50% chance to hit everything on the map for a relatively small amount of damage. This can be paired with a passive ability that grants a 30% chance to instantly kill any enemy hit whose speed stat is lower than the caster's (which is pretty easy to set up), working out to a 15% chance to instantly kill each enemy. That's not very high, and at the same level of progression, it's very easy to build a character that can do enough damage to be guaranteed to one-shot them individually. One-shotting a map full of enemies individually, however, will take many characters' worth of inputs and several turns. If you build the Sage to cast this spell multiple times in one turn, however (I believe you can get up to 7 in one turn if you rely on two other units' buffs), you can clear the map in 1-2 turns with no difficulty. Having only a 15% chance to kill each enemy doesn't matter when I'm rolling that chance dozens of times per input. I kill much more efficiently that way than by relying on higher mortality rates that operate on a smaller scale (it gets even better when you don't need to rely on the 30% chance because you can do enough damage to one-shot them anyway, so you're relying on the 50% chance instead of 15%).

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Right, because the other times this has happened in history they were up front about the poor living conditions and flimsy rationale for the camps to exist from the onset.

People are spending two weeks in them, then being released. The rationale is well understood by everyone in the world (and far from flimsy; quarantining visitors is about the only way to really keep a pandemic this infectious under control), and if living conditions are poor, there's ample opportunity for the people who have lived in the camps for two weeks to make those conditions public.

Now, if people start being imprisoned for more than the stated isolation time, or a country starts enforcing unjustifiably long isolation periods, or concerns arise about people being censored when they try to speak out about camp conditions? Then we've got a problem. But until then, there's nothing wrong with the fundamental idea of using camps to control an ongoing public health emergency.

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LinkPizza
10/31/20 12:43:24 PM
#26:


Id rather not spend time in one... Sounds kind of horrible... So, Ill just skip that...
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adjl
10/31/20 1:08:14 PM
#27:


LinkPizza posted...
Id rather not spend time in one... Sounds kind of horrible... So, Ill just skip that...

Realistically, if there's an ongoing public health crisis that might necessitate something like this, you probably shouldn't be travelling such that you might end up needing to stay in one.

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Ogurisama
10/31/20 1:13:35 PM
#28:


Death rate would be higher if people werent hospitalized
And if you allow it to run to without people covid protocols, hospitals will fill up pass capacity and people will be dying at home, increasing the death rate by a lot.

Also, even young people need to worry about it, even if not for the death, but post covid syndrome, which can cause breathing issues, heart arrhythmias, brain damage, and other things.

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SKARDAVNELNATE
10/31/20 1:28:53 PM
#29:


adjl posted...
The rationale is well understood by everyone in the world
I'm sure everyone had an understanding of why people were being rounded up the previous times as well. The issue was whether everyone agreed with it.

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adjl
10/31/20 1:36:22 PM
#30:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I'm sure everyone had an understanding of why people were being rounded up the previous times as well. The issue was whether everyone agreed with it.

Do you disagree that keeping people in camps for their two-week isolation period is going to be more effective than simply telling them to isolate and hoping they listen? Do you disagree that an isolation period for anyone entering a region (especially one with no ongoing community spread) is a reasonable and effective way to prevent further outbreaks? Do you disagree that the experience is going to be pretty much the same for the responsible, law-abiding people (presuming reasonable living conditions) as if they were left to isolate voluntarily, meaning the only people adversely affected are the non-compliant people who would need to be taken into custody anyway?

To say nothing of the fact that my statement was in response to you saying that people running these camps are not always upfront about their rationales, which the universal understanding of the rationale here does completely rebut and moving on to questions of agreement is very much moving the goalposts.

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Jen0125
10/31/20 1:39:16 PM
#31:


Are people just upset that they're designated camps instead of hotels? What's the difference between mandatory quarantine in a hotel vs a compound set up for it?

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Unbridled9
10/31/20 1:45:22 PM
#32:


Jen0125 posted...
Are people just upset that they're designated camps instead of hotels? What's the difference between mandatory quarantine in a hotel vs a compound set up for it?

Camps are usually low-quality, set up in haste, with little privacy, people crammed together, and terrible conditions even at the best of times. At best you'll get something only marginally better than a prison cell. More likely you'll be looking at something akin to a refugee camp.

And, quite frankly, no matter the quality of the camp, it's going to be a bad look for the government. Placing it's civilians in camps instead of hotels where they'd have hot water, privacy, some comfort, and the hotels are largely deserted anyways for now. It just does NOT look good.

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adjl
10/31/20 1:52:28 PM
#33:


Again, I do feel like commandeering a hotel would probably be more sensible than building any kind of camp or compound. You've already got the infrastructure in place to deliver entertainment and food to people, as well as plumbing and the like. Why reinvent the wheel?

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Jen0125
10/31/20 1:53:24 PM
#34:


Do we even know what these facilities look like?

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Unbridled9
10/31/20 2:01:09 PM
#35:


Jen0125 posted...
Do we even know what these facilities look like?

The only thing I was able to find is an allusion to 1984 so no. Not at the moment. But if we were to look at similar camps constructed worldwide we'd probably get an idea. The ones I've seen are basically refugee camps and/or camping tent cities.

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DeltaBladeX
10/31/20 2:40:43 PM
#36:


Hi, I'm a kiwi that might be a bit behind on the news, but I at least know some stuff happening here

Mandatory quarantine - Yup. All travellers end up in hotels for minimum two weeks, are tested, etc. All current cases in New Zealand are controlled in this method.

Camps - News to me. We have been putting people into hotels. Hotels are already there and can handle the numbers we are letting in.

Now, if this was happening, I can only guess it has to do with the damn fishing companies. Not hiring locals (my brother tried and got told nothing was available), then bring in a load of Russian and Ukrainian people to do it since they will take under NZ minimum wage. The spike of infected from that was the largest in NZ since the original uncontrolled outbreak. I'm pretty sure they all went to hotels as well, considering that was several days ago while this is the first I'veheard if camps, but if they plan to try more of that, I have no clue how many people they would be trying to bring.
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DirtBasedSoap
10/31/20 2:49:03 PM
#37:


i am super skeptical of putting people in mandatory camps. Especially for a virus with a survival rate of like 99% lol

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DeltaBladeX
10/31/20 3:01:10 PM
#38:


So, did a quick Google, and nothing except mentions of certain Americans claiming it. Can't find a single damn thing about anything of the such actually happening.

So yeah, I'm betting we are continuing with the hotels we already have, not building some camps.

DirtBasedSoap posted...
Especially for a virus with a survival rate of like 99% lol

High spread, other serious health issues and likely to increase death rates if services are unavailable? You bet we make quarantine mandatory. And it seems to work quite well at keeping people uninfected.
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SunWuKung420
10/31/20 3:08:14 PM
#39:


Schmen would have gone to one and told us all about it since he supposedly moved there.

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adjl
10/31/20 3:14:54 PM
#40:


DirtBasedSoap posted...
Especially for a virus with a survival rate of like 99% lol

Again, a virus that infects a million people with a 1% mortality rate is more dangerous than a virus that infects ten people with a 100% mortality rate. Mortality rate for individual cases is not the only stat worth considering in managing public health.

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BlazeAndBlade
10/31/20 3:20:26 PM
#41:


don't forget you can re catch the virus. it's not a 1 time thing where you catch it once and never again

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acesxhigh
10/31/20 3:43:42 PM
#42:


BlazeAndBlade posted...
don't forget you can re catch the virus. it's not a 1 time thing where you catch it once and never again
this hasn't been proven
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DirtBasedSoap
10/31/20 3:48:50 PM
#43:


adjl posted...
Again, a virus that infects a million people with a 1% mortality rate is more dangerous than a virus that infects ten people with a 100% mortality rate. Mortality rate for individual cases is not the only stat worth considering in managing public health.
soon there will only be 99% of us left

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adjl
10/31/20 4:18:32 PM
#44:


DirtBasedSoap posted...
soon there will only be 99% of us left

If we're taking that attitude, then why bother fighting against anything? No threat to human life is going to kill more than a couple percent of the global population, after all.

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DirtBasedSoap
10/31/20 4:39:49 PM
#45:


Im just joking. I know its serious =\

Too many idiots not following protocols.

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Lokarin
10/31/20 4:42:44 PM
#46:


adjl posted...
If we're taking that attitude, then why bother fighting against anything? No threat to human life is going to kill more than a couple percent of the global population, after all.

Death realism statistics are kinda hard to swallow.

We should do everything we can to stop covid, not because of its relative danger, but because it is stoppable... like, at all.

I mean, if we get down to just the numbers... covid in the US has taken out about half as many as smoking has (so far), so one line of reasoning might be that smoking must be tackled twice as hard........ but life ain't work like that

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adjl
10/31/20 4:42:59 PM
#47:


Oh, okay. It's so hard to tell these days.

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adjl
10/31/20 4:50:49 PM
#48:


Lokarin posted...
I mean, if we get down to just the numbers... covid in the US has taken out about half as many as smoking has (so far), so one line of reasoning might be that smoking must be tackled twice as hard........ but life ain't work like that

The thing with smoking, though, is that that is primarily personal risk. You can limit second-hand smoke exposure to cut down on public health risk, and provide education and age restrictions to help ensure that people are making informed, competent choices, but at the end of the day, you can't stop people from making stupid decisions like that if they're really so brain-dead as to think that smoking is a good idea. Basically everything that can be done to reduce smoking rates is already being done (although second-hand smoke could still be cut down further, such as requiring smokers to tie plastic bags around their heads before lighting up, and that would likely indirectly reduce smoking rates), and all that's left is a cultural shift that will have to happen naturally instead of being forced by anything top-down.

It's also worth noting that you're comparing both stats after measures have been taken to reduce them, so the whole "work twice as hard" thing isn't quite accurate.

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Lokarin
10/31/20 4:51:44 PM
#49:


adjl posted...


It's also worth noting that you're comparing both stats after measures have been taken to reduce them, so the whole "work twice as hard" thing isn't quite accurate.


That's one of the flaws with statistics, unfortunately

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SKARDAVNELNATE
10/31/20 7:56:58 PM
#50:


adjl posted...
Do you disagree that keeping people in camps for their two-week isolation period is going to be more effective than simply telling them to isolate and hoping they listen?
Yes.

adjl posted...
Do you disagree that an isolation period for anyone entering a region (especially one with no ongoing community spread) is a reasonable and effective way to prevent further outbreaks?
Yes.

adjl posted...
Do you disagree that the experience is going to be pretty much the same for the responsible, law-abiding people (presuming reasonable living conditions) as if they were left to isolate voluntarily, meaning the only people adversely affected are the non-compliant people who would need to be taken into custody anyway?
Yes.

Jen0125 posted...
What's the difference between mandatory quarantine in a hotel vs a compound set up for it?
Camps bring to mind images of people milling about a fenced in area with armed guards.
Hotels suggest indoor plumbing, doors with locks on them, room cleaning, and food delivered to your room.

adjl posted...
Again, I do feel like commandeering a hotel would probably be more sensible than building any kind of camp or compound.
I'm opposed to seizing property just as I'm opposed to seizing people.

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