Board 8 > November PS+: Bugsnax (PS5), Shadow of War, Hollow Knight

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StealThisSheen
11/20/20 10:24:49 PM
#51:


Well, Undertale isn't side-scrolling. That's where his confusion came from. They really are nothing alike.

Hollow Knight's a side-scrolling Metroidvania.

Undertale is an RPG with a top-down (or whatever they call it) style like Earthbound.

Maybe you're confusing another game with Undertale?

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kevwaffles
11/20/20 10:49:11 PM
#52:


Probably Cave Story, cause that would actually make sense.

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MZero
11/21/20 12:16:22 AM
#53:


i think he might be confusing side-scrolling and 2D

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StealThisSheen
11/21/20 12:25:24 AM
#54:


MZero posted...
i think he might be confusing side-scrolling and 2D

Yeah but then that'd be like saying "Hollow Knight is similar to Undertale which is similar to Street Fighter 2"

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guffguy89
11/21/20 12:54:12 AM
#55:


ah ok, i'll admit I was wrong. I last played Undertale when it first came out, so it's been a while. In my mind, I remembered it as a 2D sidescroller. That's how I remembered it when I made that comment. My apologies to NFUn and Sheen.

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MZero
11/21/20 2:30:31 AM
#56:


StealThisSheen posted...
Yeah but then that'd be like saying "Hollow Knight is similar to Undertale which is similar to Street Fighter 2"

he didn't even say they were similar though, he said he doesn't usually play side-scrolling games so this isn't his cup of tea. Like if you said "I don't usually play anime games" that could apply to both Persona and BlazBlue despite the gameplay being completely different

It sounds like he just forgot what Undertale was like but that was my thinking

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StealThisSheen
11/21/20 3:06:40 AM
#57:


MZero posted...
he didn't even say they were similar though,

guffguy89 posted...
they are both considered sidescrollers, are they not? I felt like they were similar. They definitely aren't as polar opposite as you're so pompously and rather dramatically making it out to be.

He admitted he just forgot what Undertale was like so it was just a misunderstanding, but he did say they were similar.

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Lightning Strikes
11/21/20 10:15:17 AM
#58:


I finished the main story in Shadow of War, and, hoo boy...

Its not bad or even mediocre, but it may be one of the most disappointing sequels Ive ever played. Its quite good fun for the duration of the campaign, aside from a few not so good set pieces in the main story missions and the fact that they dont use the games systems as well as those in the first game. But the sieges are a fun addition and the expansions to the nemesis system are really good. Theres more variety in the world, enemies and missions. It should have been a clean improvement over the original.

What makes it do disappointing is the sheer preponderance of completely unnecessary faults that were easily avoidable by simple decisions. The worst example is easily the epilogue, where it expects you to grind through 20 siege missions (and the corresponding grinds to get enough good orcs) to get the true ending. I did not fo that, because thats ridiculous and mainly seems to exist to encourage you to buy microtransactions that are no longer in the game. I appreciate wanting a postgame, but this should have been a fifth of the length.

This even goes for smaller changes as well. Why is there a gear system now? It just adds busywork. Did it need so many extra collectibles? This even goes for the story, which is bad and disrespectful to the source material, but largely due to a handful of decisions that were totally avoidable. Why is Shelob a sexy humanoid woman? Why is that character a nazgul? Why does the ending happen the way it does rather than a much simpler solution that doesnt directly contradict the story this is a prequel to?

And the story is really a big issue here because they clearly want you to be invested and dedicate a lot of time to it. They also go very deep into the lore which makes the massive deviations much more jarring. The first games story was passable with some issues but they have ramped those issues way up and put more emphasis on the story itself. Talion goes from ok to one of the most dull protagonists I have ever seen. It goes from some issues with crowbarred characters and off timelines to absolutely blatant disregard for the source.

Shadow of Mordor was one of the best games that year, and probably one of the best early 2010s Ubisoft style open world games ever made. I still had fun with Shadow of War, but they had such an opportunity to make an even better game that they made some steps towards but ultimately squandered for next to no reason. So.., 6/10 I guess?

Its decent, worth a go on PS+, but such a step down its really disappointing.

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UshiromiyaEva
11/21/20 10:20:22 AM
#59:


Yeah I really don't understand how anyone can think that bloated PoS is "more of what you liked" from the first game or some kind of step up. Shadow of War is a mess.

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Lightning Strikes
11/21/20 11:28:21 AM
#60:


Part of the problem is that a lot of it is that. There are improvements and the core loop is fun. Its really easy to imagine a version of that game that cuts all of the excess material and has a few key changes being as good or better. But what they put out fell clearly short.

I feel it is a game that is lucky that it came out the same year as Mass Effect Andromeda and Battlefront 2, otherwise it might have done a most disappointing game clean sweep.

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UshiromiyaEva
11/21/20 12:23:30 PM
#61:


I feel like those were the Giant Bomb top 3 for that category that year, unless I'm remembering wrong.

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Lightning Strikes
11/21/20 12:49:13 PM
#62:


My disappointment actually made me go and listen to the Shadow of War bits of that category! The third was Need for Speed... Payback I think? Narrowly eliminating Shadow of War. Which is the right choice for them, though I think Shadow of War was probably disappointing to more people in general.

Also I forgot to mention: visually this game is barely improved over the first game, which was essentially a PS3/360 game. So it creates this weird disconnect of an old looking game with HDR.

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UshiromiyaEva
11/21/20 12:53:05 PM
#63:


I should listen to that segment again as well. Just wonderful how much they tear into Andromeda. Only game to ever win Most Dissapointing AND Worst Game!

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Murphiroth
11/21/20 12:58:30 PM
#64:


Were you playing unpatched or something? They shortened the Shadow Wars bit with a patch around the time they took out the microtransactions. Went from 20 sieges to 5 IIRC, I went back to the game at that point and was done in like two hours.
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Lightning Strikes
11/21/20 2:48:40 PM
#65:


Oh, I actually didnt realise that and stopped early. I guess I should finish it then.

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Murphiroth
11/21/20 2:56:18 PM
#66:


My numbers may be slightly off but I know it's a lot shorter. I couldn't be bothered to finish the original Shadow Wars, it was too much, but the patched version was fine.
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Waluigi1
11/21/20 4:55:39 PM
#67:


They extremely different games in like, almost every way...

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guffguy89
11/21/20 5:49:17 PM
#68:


Yeah, MZero kind of got it right on the money there. My initial post wasnt saying they were identical games, it was more of, this is the closest game I can think of. I mean, I've never really played a Metroidverse game so that's probably why. I think NFUN misconstrued my post as saying that they were extremely similar games, and I suddenly found myself in a defensive position to a point I wasn't even really trying to make. It didn't help that I was misremembering that Undertale was a sidescroller when it wasnt.

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NFUN
11/21/20 5:58:14 PM
#69:


i just honestly didn't see how they were similar at all except that they had "rooms", which is like, extremely common

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kevwaffles
11/21/20 7:41:39 PM
#70:


I still think you were confusing Undertale with Cave Story.
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MZero
11/21/20 8:56:47 PM
#71:


NFUN posted...
i just honestly didn't see how they were similar at all except that they had "rooms", which is like, extremely common

It's like, if the only games you've played are GTA, Witcher 3, Fallout, Call of Duty, and Undertale, then I can see why you'd say HK is closer to Undertale

I'm guessing he mostly plays 3D games and that's why he was thinking Undertale was a side-scroller

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NFUN
11/21/20 9:02:54 PM
#72:


MZero posted...
It's like, if the only games you've played are GTA, Witcher 3, Fallout, Call of Duty, and Undertale, then I can see why you'd say HK is closer to Undertale
And if the only movies you've watched are 12 Angry Men, Cats, and Iron Man, every movie is a Marvel movie. Sure, Memento is closer to Iron Man than it is to the others, but that doesn't mean the comparison makes any sense. He remembered Undertale as was something completely different to what it was. This analogy isn't useful

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andylt
11/21/20 9:38:23 PM
#73:


He just misremembered, I don't think it's worth analysing any more than that. The important thing here is that everybody agrees Hollow Knight is awesome.

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MZero
11/21/20 11:07:23 PM
#74:


NFUN posted...
And if the only movies you've watched are 12 Angry Men, Cats, and Iron Man, every movie is a Marvel movie. Sure, Memento is closer to Iron Man than it is to the others, but that doesn't mean the comparison makes any sense. He remembered Undertale as was something completely different to what it was. This analogy isn't useful

The comparison made sense from his perspective. It sounds like he's used to 3D models/worlds, and Undertale and Hollow Knight are both 2D so yes they are similar to him. The fact that you're so hung up on this and acting like they have literally nothing in common is weird tbh, especially after he already said he was wrong

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NFUN
11/21/20 11:13:18 PM
#75:


MZero posted...
The comparison made sense from his perspective. It sounds like he's used to 3D models/worlds, and Undertale and Hollow Knight are both 2D so yes they are similar to him. The fact that you're so hung up on this and acting like they have literally nothing in common is weird tbh, especially after he already said he was wrong
I'm not hung up on his mistake. I'm hung on you defending his mistake as reasonable from his perspective, especially after he already said he was wrong and misremembered what it was

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MZero
11/22/20 4:26:46 AM
#76:


NFUN posted...
I'm not hung up on his mistake. I'm hung on you defending his mistake as reasonable from his perspective, especially after he already said he was wrong and misremembered what it was

my bad, I misread your post and thought you were doubling down rather than just explaining why you said what you did. So I was wrong to say you're hung up on it

also I've never played Undertale I just felt bad for him

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Lightning Strikes
11/22/20 11:11:04 AM
#77:


It makes sense no?

Under=Cave
Tale=Story

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andylt
11/22/20 11:23:46 AM
#78:


In an alternate world Quote would be a Mii Gunner costume in Smash and Moonsong would get the love Megalovania has.

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kevwaffles
11/22/20 3:47:28 PM
#79:


Quote would have never been the most popular character. The closest equivalent would be Balrog I guess?
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NFUN
11/22/20 3:49:53 PM
#80:


we're back to early 2016 I see

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guffguy89
11/24/20 12:28:35 AM
#81:


Wait a minute here. First off, thanks Mzero for defending me. Everything you said is exactly how it is. I mostly play 3D platformers like the games you listed. I don't really play 2D indie games. So quite literally, the closest thing I've played to Hollow Knight is Undertale.

The only thing wrong that I am admitting to is that Undertale wasnt a sidescroller, but rather a top down. Personally those two movesets could be argued as being close to one another, but thats neither here nor there.

I do think that you are hung up on this NFUN, and are still over exaggerating the situation. If I never play 2d indie games except for Undertale and Hollow Knight (aside from retro gaming), then of course I'm going to say that that's the closest thing I've played to Hollow Knight. I hold firm that you are a very smug person NFUN, that's just a personal opinion from seeing your interactions on this board. So with the vast intellect that you obviously feel you have, I'm struggling to see why you can't understand this on that basis alone. I could say they're both dungeon crawlers with goofy npcs scattered throughout, but I'm sure you could say that about a lot of games. But I don't even need to argue that point. They are both 2D indie games. It's not like I just compared FFVII to clash of clans.

I admit that Hollow Knight and Undertale are different games. But that just goes to show how little I have played any game like Hollow Knight before. Your continued insistence that it's incomprehensible that I could equate those two in any way is just senseless and asinine.

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NFUN
11/24/20 9:13:59 AM
#82:


"Sidescroller" and "Dungeon crawler" are gameplay genres. You're using terms you don't understand. They're 2D games with rooms, no more similar on this basis than Hollow Knight is to FF6 or LTTP, other games you certainly are at least somewhat familiar with for being on this board.

I could compare indie rock to atonal instrumental death metal and say that they're similar in that they have guitars, but even if I only listen to smooth jazz it's not really a comparison to yields useful information.

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