Board 8 > November PS+: Bugsnax (PS5), Shadow of War, Hollow Knight

(+) Yeah! (+)

Well, Undertale isn't side-scrolling. That's where his confusion came from. They really are nothing alike.

Hollow Knight's a side-scrolling Metroidvania.

Undertale is an RPG with a top-down (or whatever they call it) style like Earthbound.

Maybe you're confusing another game with Undertale?

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Probably Cave Story, cause that would actually make sense.

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i think he might be confusing side-scrolling and 2D

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MZero posted...

i think he might be confusing side-scrolling and 2D

Yeah but then that'd be like saying "Hollow Knight is similar to Undertale which is similar to Street Fighter 2"

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ah ok, i'll admit I was wrong. I last played Undertale when it first came out, so it's been a while. In my mind, I remembered it as a 2D sidescroller. That's how I remembered it when I made that comment. My apologies to NFUn and Sheen.

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StealThisSheen posted...

Yeah but then that'd be like saying "Hollow Knight is similar to Undertale which is similar to Street Fighter 2"

he didn't even say they were similar though, he said he doesn't usually play side-scrolling games so this isn't his cup of tea. Like if you said "I don't usually play anime games" that could apply to both Persona and BlazBlue despite the gameplay being completely different

It sounds like he just forgot what Undertale was like but that was my thinking

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MZero posted...

he didn't even say they were similar though,

guffguy89 posted...

they are both considered sidescrollers, are they not? I felt like they were similar. They definitely aren't as polar opposite as you're so pompously and rather dramatically making it out to be.

He admitted he just forgot what Undertale was like so it was just a misunderstanding, but he did say they were similar.

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I finished the main story in Shadow of War, and, hoo boy...

Its not bad or even mediocre, but it may be one of the most disappointing sequels Ive ever played. Its quite good fun for the duration of the campaign, aside from a few not so good set pieces in the main story missions and the fact that they dont use the games systems as well as those in the first game. But the sieges are a fun addition and the expansions to the nemesis system are really good. Theres more variety in the world, enemies and missions. It should have been a clean improvement over the original.

What makes it do disappointing is the sheer preponderance of completely unnecessary faults that were easily avoidable by simple decisions. The worst example is easily the epilogue, where it expects you to grind through 20 siege missions (and the corresponding grinds to get enough good orcs) to get the true ending. I did not fo that, because thats ridiculous and mainly seems to exist to encourage you to buy microtransactions that are no longer in the game. I appreciate wanting a postgame, but this should have been a fifth of the length.

This even goes for smaller changes as well. Why is there a gear system now? It just adds busywork. Did it need so many extra collectibles? This even goes for the story, which is bad and disrespectful to the source material, but largely due to a handful of decisions that were totally avoidable. Why is Shelob a sexy humanoid woman? Why is that character a nazgul? Why does the ending happen the way it does rather than a much simpler solution that doesnt directly contradict the story this is a prequel to?

And the story is really a big issue here because they clearly want you to be invested and dedicate a lot of time to it. They also go very deep into the lore which makes the massive deviations much more jarring. The first games story was passable with some issues but they have ramped those issues way up and put more emphasis on the story itself. Talion goes from ok to one of the most dull protagonists I have ever seen. It goes from some issues with crowbarred characters and off timelines to absolutely blatant disregard for the source.

Shadow of Mordor was one of the best games that year, and probably one of the best early 2010s Ubisoft style open world games ever made. I still had fun with Shadow of War, but they had such an opportunity to make an even better game that they made some steps towards but ultimately squandered for next to no reason. So.., 6/10 I guess?

Its decent, worth a go on PS+, but such a step down its really disappointing.

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Yeah I really don't understand how anyone can think that bloated PoS is "more of what you liked" from the first game or some kind of step up. Shadow of War is a mess.

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Part of the problem is that a lot of it is that. There are improvements and the core loop is fun. Its really easy to imagine a version of that game that cuts all of the excess material and has a few key changes being as good or better. But what they put out fell clearly short.

I feel it is a game that is lucky that it came out the same year as Mass Effect Andromeda and Battlefront 2, otherwise it might have done a most disappointing game clean sweep.

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I feel like those were the Giant Bomb top 3 for that category that year, unless I'm remembering wrong.

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My disappointment actually made me go and listen to the Shadow of War bits of that category! The third was Need for Speed... Payback I think? Narrowly eliminating Shadow of War. Which is the right choice for them, though I think Shadow of War was probably disappointing to more people in general.

Also I forgot to mention: visually this game is barely improved over the first game, which was essentially a PS3/360 game. So it creates this weird disconnect of an old looking game with HDR.

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I should listen to that segment again as well. Just wonderful how much they tear into Andromeda. Only game to ever win Most Dissapointing AND Worst Game!

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Were you playing unpatched or something? They shortened the Shadow Wars bit with a patch around the time they took out the microtransactions. Went from 20 sieges to 5 IIRC, I went back to the game at that point and was done in like two hours.

Oh, I actually didnt realise that and stopped early. I guess I should finish it then.

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My numbers may be slightly off but I know it's a lot shorter. I couldn't be bothered to finish the original Shadow Wars, it was too much, but the patched version was fine.

They extremely different games in like, almost every way...

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Yeah, MZero kind of got it right on the money there. My initial post wasnt saying they were identical games, it was more of, this is the closest game I can think of. I mean, I've never really played a Metroidverse game so that's probably why. I think NFUN misconstrued my post as saying that they were extremely similar games, and I suddenly found myself in a defensive position to a point I wasn't even really trying to make. It didn't help that I was misremembering that Undertale was a sidescroller when it wasnt.

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i just honestly didn't see how they were similar at all except that they had "rooms", which is like, extremely common

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I still think you were confusing Undertale with Cave Story.
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NFUN posted...

i just honestly didn't see how they were similar at all except that they had "rooms", which is like, extremely common

It's like, if the only games you've played are GTA, Witcher 3, Fallout, Call of Duty, and Undertale, then I can see why you'd say HK is closer to Undertale

I'm guessing he mostly plays 3D games and that's why he was thinking Undertale was a side-scroller

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MZero posted...

It's like, if the only games you've played are GTA, Witcher 3, Fallout, Call of Duty, and Undertale, then I can see why you'd say HK is closer to Undertale

And if the only movies you've watched are 12 Angry Men, Cats, and Iron Man, every movie is a Marvel movie. Sure, Memento is closer to Iron Man than it is to the others, but that doesn't mean the comparison makes any sense. He remembered Undertale as was something completely different to what it was. This analogy isn't useful

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He just misremembered, I don't think it's worth analysing any more than that. The important thing here is that everybody agrees Hollow Knight is awesome.

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NFUN posted...

And if the only movies you've watched are 12 Angry Men, Cats, and Iron Man, every movie is a Marvel movie. Sure, Memento is closer to Iron Man than it is to the others, but that doesn't mean the comparison makes any sense. He remembered Undertale as was something completely different to what it was. This analogy isn't useful

The comparison made sense from his perspective. It sounds like he's used to 3D models/worlds, and Undertale and Hollow Knight are both 2D so yes they are similar to him. The fact that you're so hung up on this and acting like they have literally nothing in common is weird tbh, especially after he already said he was wrong

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MZero posted...

The comparison made sense from his perspective. It sounds like he's used to 3D models/worlds, and Undertale and Hollow Knight are both 2D so yes they are similar to him. The fact that you're so hung up on this and acting like they have literally nothing in common is weird tbh, especially after he already said he was wrong

I'm not hung up on his mistake. I'm hung on you defending his mistake as reasonable from his perspective, especially after he already said he was wrong and misremembered what it was

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NFUN posted...

I'm not hung up on his mistake. I'm hung on you defending his mistake as reasonable from his perspective, especially after he already said he was wrong and misremembered what it was

my bad, I misread your post and thought you were doubling down rather than just explaining why you said what you did. So I was wrong to say you're hung up on it

also I've never played Undertale I just felt bad for him

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It makes sense no?

Under=Cave
Tale=Story

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In an alternate world Quote would be a Mii Gunner costume in Smash and Moonsong would get the love Megalovania has.

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Quote would have never been the most popular character. The closest equivalent would be Balrog I guess?
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we're back to early 2016 I see

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Wait a minute here. First off, thanks Mzero for defending me. Everything you said is exactly how it is. I mostly play 3D platformers like the games you listed. I don't really play 2D indie games. So quite literally, the closest thing I've played to Hollow Knight is Undertale.

The only thing wrong that I am admitting to is that Undertale wasnt a sidescroller, but rather a top down. Personally those two movesets could be argued as being close to one another, but thats neither here nor there.

I do think that you are hung up on this NFUN, and are still over exaggerating the situation. If I never play 2d indie games except for Undertale and Hollow Knight (aside from retro gaming), then of course I'm going to say that that's the closest thing I've played to Hollow Knight. I hold firm that you are a very smug person NFUN, that's just a personal opinion from seeing your interactions on this board. So with the vast intellect that you obviously feel you have, I'm struggling to see why you can't understand this on that basis alone. I could say they're both dungeon crawlers with goofy npcs scattered throughout, but I'm sure you could say that about a lot of games. But I don't even need to argue that point. They are both 2D indie games. It's not like I just compared FFVII to clash of clans.

I admit that Hollow Knight and Undertale are different games. But that just goes to show how little I have played any game like Hollow Knight before. Your continued insistence that it's incomprehensible that I could equate those two in any way is just senseless and asinine.

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"Sidescroller" and "Dungeon crawler" are gameplay genres. You're using terms you don't understand. They're 2D games with rooms, no more similar on this basis than Hollow Knight is to FF6 or LTTP, other games you certainly are at least somewhat familiar with for being on this board.

I could compare indie rock to atonal instrumental death metal and say that they're similar in that they have guitars, but even if I only listen to smooth jazz it's not really a comparison to yields useful information.

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They're really not comparable other than both being indie games. Not sure why you keep doubling down on this lol. Also go play more indie games wtf.

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NFUN posted...

"Sidescroller" and "Dungeon crawler" are gameplay genres. You're using terms you don't understand. They're 2D games with rooms, no more similar on this basis than Hollow Knight is to FF6 or LTTP, other games you certainly are at least somewhat familiar with for being on this board.

I could compare indie rock to atonal instrumental death metal and say that they're similar in that they have guitars, but even if I only listen to smooth jazz it's not really a comparison to yields useful information.

Once again, you are over-exaggerating the situation. That is what I am calling you out on. My initial claim was not that they are identical games (a point you have been arguing against since the beginning). It was that the closest game I've played to Hollow Knight was Undertale. Apparenly that statement alone is so inconceivable to you that you just can't let it go.

I just find it funny that with your vast gaming intellect that you obviously have, you can't find any more similarities between those two games other than that they "have rooms." I thought you were an intelligent gamer. If pressed, couldn't you make a better argument than that? I know I could. And apparently you are so much smarter, so...I don't understand your problem.

For what it's worth, here's an article on a gaming website listing Undertale as a top 10 similar game to Hollow Knight....I know, it was a bit petty for me to look that up. But it goes to show that I'm not alone in that thought process:

https://www.thegamer.com/hollow-knight-similar-games/

Look, let me summarize this here. It's fine that you think that Hollow Knight and Undertale are very different games. I'm sure there are a lot of games that are more similar to Hollow Knight than Undertale ever will be. I just havent played them.

What's not okay is your irrational fixation that it's incomprehensible for someone to say they havent played a game like Hollow Knight since Undertale. You are over exagerrating the point, and they have enough in common where your hang up on this is just making you look foolish.


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Doesn't seem like you guys are talkin' 'bout Bugsnax.

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before we keep going at this... you know I'm not StealThisSheen, right? like, read back on the conversations on this (including your original post that started this)

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Just read through and haven't changed much in my opinion. Already admitted that I misspoke about it being a side-scroller. Maybe if I would have just said "2D indie" initially instead of side-scroller this whole thing could've been avoided?

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guffguy89 posted...

Just read through and haven't changed much in my opinion. Already admitted that I misspoke about it being a side-scroller. Maybe if I would have just said "2D indie" initially instead of side-scroller this whole thing could've been avoided?

yes. I'll make a new movie analogy: You can compare Casablanca with Star Wars, and it may make sense from your perspective if you only watch Miyazaki, but you probably want to qualify your comparison if you don't want people to be very confused

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Dude, your movie a music analogies are not compatible and are starting to make you look foolish. They are both 2d indie games that share similar environments and quirky npcs. They are closer than what you are making them out to be. This is exactly what I'm talking about in that you are overexagerrating. You are playing right into that point with these dumb, exaggerated, and incompatible analogies. I guess you're going to ignore that link I sent as well. Or the fact that someone like MZero was fully capable of understanding the initial point i was trying to make..something you are apparently incapable of comprehending.

I'm not letting this go. You are overexagerrating and I wont stop until you admit it or shut up.

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guffguy89 posted...

You are overexagerrating

welcome to NFUN

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guffguy89 posted...

Dude, your movie a music analogies are not compatible and are starting to make you look foolish. They are both 2d indie games that share similar environments and quirky npcs. They are closer than what you are making them out to be. This is exactly what I'm talking about in that you are overexagerrating. You are playing right into that point with these dumb, exaggerated, and incompatible analogies.

And Sharknado and Mr. Smith are both well-known live action movies that take place on Earth and have drama as a core fixture of the movie. Undertale and Hollow Knight have completely different gameplay. They have very different graphics. They have very different music. They share some similarities, but most are superficial, and as a basis of meaningful comparison, it is misleading to say that they're similar. The most similar to what you played, fine, which is why I had stopped arguing with you when you had initially explained. But properly similar in a way people would intuit? Literally nobody else here thinks it is

And no shit I'm exaggerating. That's the entire point of an analogy, to demonstrate the core of an argument in the most obvious and readily-grasped terms. If you want a more "grounded" example in the other direction, Sharknado and Jaws, then. You can point out all the similarities you want. There's some inherent disconnect there

guffguy89 posted...

I guess you're going to ignore that link I sent as well

Did you even read it?

"Undertale is also a change in gameplay as its an RPG, but one that breaks the mold. It too created a huge fan base online due to this subversion of the genre along with it feeling like the cult classic, EarthBound."

"So, since the sequel, Hollow Knight: Silksong, probably won't be coming out this year, here are some games to play in the meantime. They all have a common theme to Hollow Knight whether they are Metroidvanias, indie games, have great art, or star bugs. Dark Souls is a somewhat obvious, bonus plug."

Undertale is like Hollow Knight in that it "broke the mold" and it's an indie game. It's specious. The link is garbage for these purposes

guffguy89 posted...

Or the fact that someone like MZero was fully capable of understanding the initial point i was trying to make..something you are apparently incapable of comprehending.

He used the analogy "It's like, if the only games you've played are GTA, Witcher 3, Fallout, Call of Duty, and Undertale, then I can see why you'd say HK is closer to Undertale". At best, that's damning with faint praise, and functionally, it's no more generous than my analogies. If the only movies you've watched are My Neighbor Totoro, Spirited Away, Howl's Moving Castle and Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, what might Sharknado look most like...? The only real difference is the attitude. "It's understandable to make this comparison that isn't informative" vs "It isn't helpful to make this comparison that isn't informative"

I haven't actually watched any Miyazaki movies but I imagine none of them have any real similarities to Sharnado at all

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Ooh, a good reply. I'm going to have to think about this response a bit. I think we are actually close to coming to terms, it's just a bit of semantics at this point possibly.

Concerning your analogies, where I think they are wrong is that you're saying I watch a lot of some specific genre and then am trying to compare the rest of them. Like, I watch a lot of anime, and nothing else, and now am trying to compare The Notebook to Avengers Endgame. In reality, it's the opposite. If we are to use the analogy. I watch all the other genres except anime. Let's say I watched an anime show in 2016. Then just recently watched another anime show in 2020. What if I were to say "I havent seen anime show A since anime show B"? Well, anime fans out there may have some complaints with that. "Those shows are nothing alike, blah blah blah." Well I never initially stated they were, I just said that's the last anime I watched!

/NFUN: "And no shit I'm exaggerating. That's the entire point of an analogy, to demonstrate the core of an argument in the most obvious and readily-grasped terms. If you want a more "grounded" example in the other direction, Sharknado and Jaws, then. You can point out all the similarities you want. There's some inherent disconnect there"/

That's actually a perfect example. If Jaws was the last shark movie I've seen, and I comment on a Sharknado topic that "I havent seen a shark movie like this since Jaws," I wouldnt expect anyway to come out saying, "???? How! Those are nothing alike. I literally cannot think of any way they are alike except they have water in them." It just seems like an unnecessary reaction to that statement.

As for the article. I did read it. I think it stil says something to the fact that he thought of Undertale when thinking of similar games to Hollow Knight, but I get what you're saying about it. All I'm saying is at least they have similar motifs. They involve a main character going on a quest or adventure or whatever through an unknown area, meeting weird, quirky npcs along the way. I know a lot of games are like that, but it's not like I'm trying to compare Grand Tourismo with Kingdom Hearts.

And that brings me to a final point in this comment. I was never trying to make a helpful comparison/similar recommendation or anything like that. I was just saying that Undertale was the last game like HK that I could think of. I've tried to explain how I've never really played Metroidvanias and how not being a Nintendo or PC gamer makes it easy to avoid those kind of games. If you find that embarrassing on my part, then so be it, but it should most definitely be understandable. And I still hold fast that the whole reaction on your part, not just the movie analogies, is a bit of a overeaction. They just arent as different as your making them out to be.

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well good. glad that's settled. there can't possibly be anything else said about this topic.

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Honestly at this point I'd be shocked if anyone outside of me and NFUN are actually reading this. :D

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guffguy89 posted...

And that brings me to a final point in this comment. I was never trying to make a helpful comparison/similar recommendation or anything like that. I was just saying that Undertale was the last game like HK that I could think of. I've tried to explain how I've never really played Metroidvanias and how not being a Nintendo or PC gamer makes it easy to avoid those kind of games. If you find that embarrassing on my part, then so be it, but it should most definitely be understandable. And I still hold fast that the whole reaction on your part, not just the movie analogies, is a bit of a overeaction. They just arent as different as your making them out to be.

We can agree to disagree on whether they're similar, but please look back at my reactions. I expressed confusion that you compared them, I clarified what my confusion was about because you were unsure what I meant, I reiterated that I was confused about how you meant that they were similar, and then MZero started his things with me and things went downhill from there. I wasn't making a big deal about it. Sheen was the one was who arguing about it until I got roped back in

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Fair enough. I have a bad addiction to debating stupid pointless things, and this looks like a good opportunity to end things peacefully.

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guffguy89 posted...

I have a bad addiction to debating stupid pointless things

same. but maybe next time don't repeatedly comment how smug i seem to be in general. just point out if i'm being condescending

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yeah, I was going to edit my previous post to apologize for that, but since you brought it up, I'll do that now. I don't usually do personal attacks when I debate. Or I try not to anyway. I crossed the line several times during our back and forth while you kept yourself pretty much in check in that regard. So I do apologize for making some barbs that I shouldn't have.

I did feel a little hint of condescension throughout though ;D

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Oh people are reading

They just think you're both dumb

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I definitely gave up on reading this and therefore am not in a position to declare who is or is not dumb at this time.
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