Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 331: Borat to the Brain

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Corrik7
10/24/20 11:03:25 PM
#454:


https://mobile.twitter.com/Santucci/status/1320193657388044289

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UshiromiyaEva
10/24/20 11:13:16 PM
#455:


I've been keeping an eye out on the trending tabs due to my paranoia, and the only thing that's hit so far today is that Trump was on the campaign trail with what appears to be a Melania body double today?

Also it's not trending yet, but just saw that Pence's office appears to have a Covid spread. Who'da thunk!

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Hbthebattle
10/24/20 11:31:00 PM
#456:


Corrik7 posted...
So you agree he would have lost his base. That's why I said it didn't matter. He was done as soon as covid hit. Everyone in the world knew the economics were way too good for him to lose prior.
Showing that you're incompetent in the face of a crisis is a great way to lose elections (hopefully)

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Corrik7
10/25/20 12:24:45 AM
#457:


Hbthebattle posted...
Showing that you're incompetent in the face of a crisis is a great way to lose elections (hopefully)
He couldn't win the election once the pandemic hit. He probably would have won without it. It doesn't matter. We are here now. I just said it would have been interesting if there wasn't a pandemic this election for what would have happened. I thought New Hampshire was a guaranteed flip for Trump before the pandemic. Its a small state and wouldn't make up for losing a PA or such, but the election would have been interesting no doubt.

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Leafeon13N
10/25/20 12:31:47 AM
#458:


Corrik7 posted...
He couldn't win the election once the pandemic hit.
It is almost impossible for a president to lose favor in a national crisis.
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Corrik7
10/25/20 12:50:41 AM
#459:


Leafeon13N posted...
It is almost impossible for a president to lose favor in a national crisis.
There is literally no historical context for this. The only other pandemic of this magnitude was the spanish influenza, which was hidden from the public initially and was during WW1.

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Inviso
10/25/20 12:52:22 AM
#460:


Yeah. The general consensus is that it frightens voters to risk a change in the middle of a crisis. It's just that Trump (and the Republicans) have handled this pandemic is an utterly abysmal fashion, either by openly refusing to implement any sort of plan to combat the virus (because the optics of the economy is more important than human life), or refusing to pass a substantial relief bill for suffering Americans because ultimately, they don't want to spend that money and it's easy to blame the House Democrats despite Republican stonewalling across the board.

The real problem Trump has is that he's an incompetent conman who thinks that because President Obama handed him an upswinging economy, he's this brilliant politician. And worse than that, Trump's voters saw how sloppily he behaved in all aspects of the job for three years (not to mention the 2015-2016 campaign), yet constantly called Dems alarmists when we predicted EXACTLY how his dumb ass would react to a genuine crisis when the country wasn't running on autopilot for him anymore.

The Republicans are not acting out of character. This is not some bizarre and unexpected scenario in which they were just caught off-guard. Trump himself might be uniquely incompetent, and his penchant for tweeting nonsense to exacerbate bad situations doesn't help matters, but for the rest of the party, this is how they've been since the seventies. The pain that red states are feeling from COVID-19 or from the complete lack of care regarding a stimulus package? That's boilerplate for the GOP. It's just that for once, the Republican voters are feeling the negative effects of the party that they back and suddenly realize how the GOP is at actual governance.

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Leafeon13N
10/25/20 12:52:29 AM
#461:


Corrik7 posted...
here is literally no historical context for this.
There is plenty of historical context for national crisis.
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Corrik7
10/25/20 12:54:19 AM
#462:


Leafeon13N posted...
There is plenty of historical context for national crisis.
There is literally no context for a pandemic. Stop trying to move things around. It is dumb.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/03/trump-covid-1918-flu-struck-woodrow-wilson-pandemic/3607579001/

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Giggsalot
10/25/20 12:59:27 AM
#463:


The majority of world leaders have increased in approval during COVID, even in countries which have suffered bad outbreaks. Trump is a rare exception.

To claim that he could not have benefited from this is to completely ignore all evidence.

https://www.statista.com/chart/21437/coronavirus-and-leader-approval-ratings/
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/41/25429

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Corrik7
10/25/20 1:01:29 AM
#464:


Giggsalot posted...
The majority of world leaders have increased in approval during COVID, even in countries which have suffered bad outbreaks. Trump is a rare exception.

To claim that he could not have benefited from this is to completely ignore all evidence.

https://www.statista.com/chart/21437/coronavirus-and-leader-approval-ratings/
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/41/25429
Pandemic caused recession. Every single president but 1 in like 150 years or some shit has lost with a recession in their final 2 years their re-election.

I mean, this is not rocket science at all.

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red13n
10/25/20 1:03:19 AM
#465:


Corrik7 posted...
There is literally no context for a pandemic. Stop trying to move things around. It is dumb.

I didn't try to move anything around. I specified national crisis. You are trying to move the goalpost to something more specific.

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Grimlyn
10/25/20 1:03:20 AM
#466:


yeah COVID's been a pretty easy thing to score points on here outside of America -- provincial case but even Doug Ford was even able to make people forget what a sack of shit he is in the early days of the outbreak.

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Inviso
10/25/20 1:03:34 AM
#467:


Corrik7 posted...
Pandemic caused recession. Every single president but 1 in like 150 years or some shit has lost with a recession in their final 2 years their re-election.

I mean, this is not rocket science at all.

Oh so now it's the recession that fucked Trump, and not the pandemic that he was completely unprepared for and treated like a non-issue (thus causing the recession). Didn't you just tell Red to stop trying to move things around?

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Corrik7
10/25/20 1:06:05 AM
#468:


red13n posted...
I didn't try to move anything around. I specified national crisis. You are trying to move the goalpost to something more specific.
This is a pandemic. It has no comparison. You keep repeating something without merit. You keep using a vague ass term that has no bearing. That even said depressions and recessions are national crises so you are still wrong.

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Giggsalot
10/25/20 1:07:22 AM
#469:


Corrik7 posted...
Pandemic caused recession. Every single president but 1 in like 150 years or some shit has lost with a recession in their final 2 years their re-election.

I mean, this is not rocket science at all.
I mean, Europe has also entered a crazy recession this year and their leaders don't seem to be suffering for it (bar Johnson, who took a similar approach to Trump and has also fallen in favorability). Maybe you can argue that American voters somehow prioritize the economy more heavily, but I'd want to see some evidence for that.

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Corrik7
10/25/20 1:08:19 AM
#470:


Inviso posted...
Oh so now it's the recession that fucked Trump, and not the pandemic that he was completely unprepared for and treated like a non-issue (thus causing the recession). Didn't you just tell Red to stop trying to move things around?
The pandemic caused the recession. Where the fuck have you been? Lol. I swear you people amaze me at times.

I said without the pandemic, Trump would have won. Pretty much everyone agreed Trump likely had it in the bag due to the economy prior. Even most of you agreed with that. Are you seriously so vain that you can't admit that because you feel it cheapens a democratic victory? Lol.

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Corrik7
10/25/20 1:10:28 AM
#471:


Giggsalot posted...
I mean, Europe has also entered a crazy recession this year and their leaders don't seem to be suffering for it (bar Johnson, who took a similar approach to Trump and has also fallen in favorability). Maybe you can argue that American voters somehow prioritize the economy more heavily, but I'd want to see some evidence for that.
Europe isn't America. Presidents with recessions almost never win re-election.

https://www.newsweek.com/heres-all-presidents-re-elected-during-recessions-1493467

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Inviso
10/25/20 1:13:36 AM
#472:


Corrik7 posted...
The pandemic caused the recession. Where the fuck have you been? Lol. I swear you people amaze me at times.

I said without the pandemic, Trump would have won. Pretty much everyone agreed Trump likely had it in the bag due to the economy prior. Even most of you agreed with that. Are you seriously so vain that you can't admit that because you feel it cheapens a democratic victory? Lol.

I mean, the guy was still historically unpopular and wouldn't be running against Hillary Clinton this year. The Dems had a blue wave in 2018 in direct response to how shitty he was in his first two years. I'm not saying it was a sure thing that Biden would win, but given that Trump has no real accomplishments to cite in his favor, I don't see why you think he'd have it in the bag.

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ChaosTonyV4
10/25/20 1:14:03 AM
#473:


Corrik7 posted...
The pandemic caused the recession. Where the f*** have you been? Lol. I swear you people amaze me at times.

The total forced shutdown of the economy without a corresponding stimulus caused the recession, not the pandemic itself.

Trump could have demanded a massive stimulus bill and absolutely dumpstered Biden, and you know this is true because it's the entire reason you're not voting for him.

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Inviso
10/25/20 1:16:33 AM
#474:


For a direct comparison, look at Bush with 9/11. Our nation was attacked by terrorists, and no one blamed Bush for it. (In retrospect, he fucked things up by ignoring intelligence briefings, but we didn't know that at the time.) For a man who had been in office less than a year (and whose election was plagued with a contentious result), his approval rating boosted to the highest peak in recorded history. Bush behaved like a president should in a crisis.

His approval peaked again (though not nearly as high) when we invaded Iraq, because it was a sign of him projecting strength and showing America's perceived enemies that he would protect us. This is why Dems have been so terrified of Trump starting a war to try and get that rally-around-the-flag effect...because it has worked in the past. In fact, all of this led to the incumbent party scoring a rare victory in the 2002 midterm elections, gaining seats in both the House AND Senate. And then they did that AGAIN in 2004.

Bush knew how to respond to a crisis. Trump did not. All Trump cared about was the stock market numbers looking good, so he made a multitude of bad decisions that worsened then inevitable recession. It's his own fault that the recession happened, or at least happened to the degree at which we're suffering now. A competent leader could've at least spun that straw into copper, if not gold.

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red sox 777
10/25/20 1:40:33 AM
#475:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
The total forced shutdown of the economy without a corresponding stimulus caused the recession, not the pandemic itself.

Trump could have demanded a massive stimulus bill and absolutely dumpstered Biden, and you know this is true because it's the entire reason you're not voting for him.

We can't really stop the recession with government spending alone. All those businesses closed, didn't they? Government spending is just borrowing from our future selves. It can shield us from the consequences of the recession but it can't stop the losses of production from happening.

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LordoftheMorons
10/25/20 2:19:06 AM
#476:


Amazingly, he keeps finding ways to be even more of a piece of shit than before

https://twitter.com/Craig_A_Spencer/status/1320201969223553024

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LordoftheMorons
10/25/20 2:25:06 AM
#477:


Also up to 5 people in the Pence outbreak:

https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/1320219253258289152

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LinkMarioSamus
10/25/20 5:20:03 AM
#478:


Inviso posted...
I mean, the guy was still historically unpopular and wouldn't be running against Hillary Clinton this year. The Dems had a blue wave in 2018 in direct response to how shitty he was in his first two years. I'm not saying it was a sure thing that Biden would win, but given that Trump has no real accomplishments to cite in his favor, I don't see why you think he'd have it in the bag.

This plus all the race riots would probably happen anyway. I do get the feeling that Trump's popularity would take a downswing this year regardless as a result, although whether it would be enough for him to lose the election is quite a question (especially given it might not even be enough for him to lose the election anyway, although I only say this to play devil's advocate).

I agree that Trump has no real accomplishments to cite in his favor, but it's a little funny given his supporters claim nonsense like him having accomplished more in 47 months than Biden did in 47 years.

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LinkMarioSamus
10/25/20 5:23:12 AM
#479:


Inviso posted...
For a direct comparison, look at Bush with 9/11. Our nation was attacked by terrorists, and no one blamed Bush for it. (In retrospect, he fucked things up by ignoring intelligence briefings, but we didn't know that at the time.) For a man who had been in office less than a year (and whose election was plagued with a contentious result), his approval rating boosted to the highest peak in recorded history. Bush behaved like a president should in a crisis.

His approval peaked again (though not nearly as high) when we invaded Iraq, because it was a sign of him projecting strength and showing America's perceived enemies that he would protect us. This is why Dems have been so terrified of Trump starting a war to try and get that rally-around-the-flag effect...because it has worked in the past. In fact, all of this led to the incumbent party scoring a rare victory in the 2002 midterm elections, gaining seats in both the House AND Senate. And then they did that AGAIN in 2004.

Bush knew how to respond to a crisis. Trump did not. All Trump cared about was the stock market numbers looking good, so he made a multitude of bad decisions that worsened then inevitable recession. It's his own fault that the recession happened, or at least happened to the degree at which we're suffering now. A competent leader could've at least spun that straw into copper, if not gold.

The Trump administration has actually made me appreciate Bush in hindsight, since Bush at least stood for SOMETHING, even if I didn't agree with it. All Trump does is put words in peoples' mouths. It's like people expected him to be brought down to earth by the general political atmosphere, but if anything Trump got even worse. He absorbed all the worst aspects of politicians and yet people still claim he's "real" just because he's more blatant about it? I don't get this.

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red13n
10/25/20 5:28:19 AM
#480:


LinkMarioSamus posted...
The Trump administration has actually made me appreciate Bush in hindsight, since Bush at least stood for SOMETHING, even if I didn't agree with it. All Trump does is put words in peoples' mouths. It's like people expected him to be brought down to earth by the general political atmosphere, but if anything Trump got even worse. He absorbed all the worst aspects of politicians and yet people still claim he's "real" just because he's more blatant about it? I don't get this.

It basically comes down to the fact that Trump is not a leader. Hell hes barely a businessman. The dude is just a marketer. He knows how to attach a brand to things.

He knows how to tell people what he thinks they want to hear and surrounds himself with people that will tell him what he wants to hear.

The only thing he knows is how to build an image and anything that goes against that image he will attempt to tear down.

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RaidenGarai
10/25/20 5:50:59 AM
#481:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Amazingly, he keeps finding ways to be even more of a piece of shit than before

https://twitter.com/Craig_A_Spencer/status/1320201969223553024
Im torn on this. Its not the frontline workers who would benefit, its the people running the doctors offices and hospitals that are fraudulently billing claims. I do believe 100% that there are a ton of false claims out there with a Covid diagnosis so the doctors and hospitals get paid more/faster though. The company I work for was covering all Covid testing and treatment earlier in the year (as far as I know they still are, but I wouldnt be surprised if that quietly stopped either). Someone slapping a Covid diagnosis isnt how positive tests are counted as far as Im aware (please correct me if Im wrong!)

The fraud piece with Covid-19 is very interesting. I dont think well know just how bad it was for months, or maybe even years from now. I work in my companies fraud investigation unit, but Im focused on the Dental side of the business. This is one of the few times I wished I was back on the Medical end, they probably have a lot of really interesting stuff going on right now.

If anyone wants to follow up on fraud related to this, the site below should be updated as new schemes are discovered.

https://oig.hhs.gov/coronavirus/fraud-alert-covid19.asp


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StealThisSheen
10/25/20 6:18:35 AM
#482:


I mean, what Trump says there doesn't even make sense.

"If somebody's sick with a heart problem, and they die of covid, they say they died of a heart problem."

THAT is the incorrect reporting, not the other way around like he's suggesting.

If you die tomorrow of covid, it doesn't matter if you have cancer, it's the covid that killed you. If you have cancer and get shot to death, they don't say you died of cancer. If you wouldn't have died when you did without covid, it's covid.

EDIT: Wait, I actually think he's saying that example is wrong, and other countries are fudging reports to keep numbers down. So then the "doctors lie for more money" is a random thing he added in the middle for... No reason?

EDIT EDIT: ...No, he does say "this country and their reporting systems are really not doing it right," which suggests he does think you shouldn't report it as covid. He's so damn all over the place I doubt he even knows what he's saying.

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Corrik7
10/25/20 6:26:25 AM
#483:


StealThisSheen posted...
I mean, what Trump says there doesn't even make sense.

"If somebody's sick with a heart problem, and they die of covid, they say they died of a heart problem."

THAT is the incorrect reporting, not the other way around like he's suggesting.

If you die tomorrow of covid, it doesn't matter if you have cancer, it's the covid that killed you. If you have cancer and get shot to death, they don't say you died of cancer. If you wouldn't have died when you did without covid, it's covid.

EDIT: Wait, I actually think he's saying that example is wrong, and other countries are fudging reports to keep numbers down. So then the "doctors lie for more money" is a random thing he added in the middle for... No reason?
In america you get more money for covid deaths. That might not be the same everywhere. At least you did. Not sure now.

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Corrik7
10/25/20 6:28:05 AM
#484:


red sox 777 posted...
We can't really stop the recession with government spending alone. All those businesses closed, didn't they? Government spending is just borrowing from our future selves. It can shield us from the consequences of the recession but it can't stop the losses of production from happening.
I believe we are technically already out of the recession.

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DeepsPraw
10/25/20 7:58:25 AM
#485:


LinkMarioSamus posted...
The Trump administration has actually made me appreciate Bush in hindsight, since Bush at least stood for SOMETHING, even if I didn't agree with it. All Trump does is put words in peoples' mouths. It's like people expected him to be brought down to earth by the general political atmosphere, but if anything Trump got even worse. He absorbed all the worst aspects of politicians and yet people still claim he's "real" just because he's more blatant about it? I don't get this.

Ugh, takes like this make me sick. Trump is an idiot, but he hasn't done ANYTHING as heinous as the Iraq War

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Seanchan
10/25/20 8:38:32 AM
#486:


If Trump had had an even vaguely competent reaction to COVID, it's more than likely he would have won this election (and I hate having to say that). Pretend like it's a major issue, wear a mask, shut things down for a few months, etc. Basically most of the same things we did, just with the backing of our national leader.

He could have then claimed that we were all in this together, blah blah blah, and that the economy will come back. And people would have believed him because he would have looked like he was TRYING.

Instead, he's been an incompetent boob who took, with the words coming out of his own idiot mouth, "no responsibility at all".

If you're a leader, you take the blame and cover for the people under you, even if it's not really your fault. That engenders trust and a bond with those in authority that they have your back when you need it most. But Trump doesn't care about anyone other than Trump and expects the exact opposite.

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CaptainOfCrush
10/25/20 9:01:13 AM
#487:


Yeah, this notion that Covid killed Trump's reelection chances no matter what is really just excusing him. He could have, I dunno, fucking handled it better by using his position to encourage people to listen to the science, practice social distancing, and wear masks. Instead, he visibly fought against these measures and ridiculed people who took them seriously (Joe Biden in the first debate).

His laundry list of absurd, unsubstantiated ramblings and assertions ("I think it'll disappear", "like a miracle", "affects virtually nobody") also haven't helped things. The guy just can't help himself from acting like a sleazy used car salesman. He can't EVER shut up and listen.

Covid wouldn't have guaranteed an election loss for Reagan, or Obama, or anyone who actually made the effort of acting like a responsible leader. Trump handled this... the way most of us expected him to, and that's on him, not the virus.

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Mr Lasastryke
10/25/20 9:27:35 AM
#488:


Corrik7 posted...
Pretty much everyone agreed Trump likely had it in the bag due to the economy prior. Even most of you agreed with that.

not true. biden is way better than hillary and trump was only barely able to defeat hillary, so i didn't necessarily think trump's chances of winning were high.

of course there were differences with 2016, most notably trump having incumbent advantage and, indeed, the economy being very good. though i honestly don't know enough about the latter argument to say how much merit that has - don't know if the pre-covid "the economy is great" claim was just based on the stock market or also on unemployment numbers (i've seen conflicting reports about this). in any case, it certainly would have been a lot closer but i wasn't like "trump probably wins" at the time and neither were tons of other people.

that being said, i have no idea what the trump/biden polls looked like pre-covid. should try to look it up sometime.

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red sox 777
10/25/20 11:22:34 AM
#489:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
not true. biden is way better than hillary and trump was only barely able to defeat hillary, so i didn't necessarily think trump's chances of winning were high.

of course there were differences with 2016, most notably trump having incumbent advantage and, indeed, the economy being very good. though i honestly don't know enough about the latter argument to say how much merit that has - don't know if the pre-covid "the economy is great" claim was just based on the stock market or also on unemployment numbers (i've seen conflicting reports about this). in any case, it certainly would have been a lot closer but i wasn't like "trump probably wins" at the time and neither were tons of other people.

that being said, i have no idea what the trump/biden polls looked like pre-covid. should try to look it up sometime.

We had the lowest unemployment rate since 1969. It was a truly excellent economy.

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Runemistress
10/25/20 11:27:07 AM
#490:


red sox 777 posted...
We had the lowest unemployment rate since 1969. It was a truly excellent economy.

Only if you ignore income inequality.

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LinkMarioSamus
10/25/20 11:30:48 AM
#491:


DeepsPraw posted...
Ugh, takes like this make me sick. Trump is an idiot, but he hasn't done ANYTHING as heinous as the Iraq War

Literally only because he wants to be the president of peace.

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LinkMarioSamus
10/25/20 11:31:25 AM
#492:


CaptainOfCrush posted...
Yeah, this notion that Covid killed Trump's reelection chances no matter what is really just excusing him. He could have, I dunno, fucking handled it better by using his position to encourage people to listen to the science, practice social distancing, and wear masks. Instead, he visibly fought against these measures and ridiculed people who took them seriously (Joe Biden in the first debate).

His laundry list of absurd, unsubstantiated ramblings and assertions ("I think it'll disappear", "like a miracle", "affects virtually nobody") also haven't helped things. The guy just can't help himself from acting like a sleazy used car salesman. He can't EVER shut up and listen.

Covid wouldn't have guaranteed an election loss for Reagan, or Obama, or anyone who actually made the effort of acting like a responsible leader. Trump handled this... the way most of us expected him to, and that's on him, not the virus.

I think Trump's base might have disowned him if he took the pandemic seriously. Not entirely sure what the logic is there though.

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Corrik7
10/25/20 11:33:43 AM
#493:


LinkMarioSamus posted...
I think Trump's base might have disowned him if he took the pandemic seriously. Not entirely sure what the logic is there though.
Enough of it would have that he would have lost the election. Yes. That was the entire point.

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red sox 777
10/25/20 11:40:43 AM
#494:


Runemistress posted...
Only if you ignore income inequality.

What? The unemployment rate is an aggregate of all income levels.

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red sox 777
10/25/20 11:43:55 AM
#495:


Or to put it another way - the unemployment rate overwhelmingly reflects how middle class and poor people are doing, because each person counts the same regardless of how much they make, and (1) there aren't a lot of rich people, and (2) they rarely have trouble finding jobs in any economy.

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red sox 777
10/25/20 11:45:50 AM
#496:


If you're complaining about income levels being very unequal, well, that's not Trump's fault. That's a 40 year trend largely caused by the policies brought in by Reagan, which Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama continued. That's what you'll get more of with Biden.

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TheRock1525
10/25/20 11:46:01 AM
#497:


Where was his base gonna go? Remember when he shot missiles in Saudi Arabia he lost them for all five minutes before they immediately came back.

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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.
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Mr Lasastryke
10/25/20 11:49:02 AM
#498:


red sox 777 posted...
If you're complaining about income levels being very unequal, well, that's not Trump's fault. That's a 40 year trend largely caused by the policies brought in by Reagan, which Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama continued. That's what you'll get more of with Biden.

trump did nothing to change this either.

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red sox 777
10/25/20 11:52:36 AM
#499:


CaptainOfCrush posted...
Yeah, this notion that Covid killed Trump's reelection chances no matter what is really just excusing him. He could have, I dunno, fucking handled it better by using his position to encourage people to listen to the science, practice social distancing, and wear masks. Instead, he visibly fought against these measures and ridiculed people who took them seriously (Joe Biden in the first debate).

His laundry list of absurd, unsubstantiated ramblings and assertions ("I think it'll disappear", "like a miracle", "affects virtually nobody") also haven't helped things. The guy just can't help himself from acting like a sleazy used car salesman. He can't EVER shut up and listen.

Covid wouldn't have guaranteed an election loss for Reagan, or Obama, or anyone who actually made the effort of acting like a responsible leader. Trump handled this... the way most of us expected him to, and that's on him, not the virus.

Trump could also have clearly explained his strategy - accepting that the virus is here and will infect millions and millions of people no matter what and that his strategy is to mitigate the damage to the economy and public life as much as possible. Countries are willing to make huge sacrifices of life to protect their freedom and way of life and after an initial drop in the polls, I think many Americans would have come around to supporting this strategy. The actual messaging was pretty incoherent though.

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red sox 777
10/25/20 11:54:12 AM
#500:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
trump did nothing to change this either.

He brought back a few manufacturing jobs and put in some tariffs. It's a drop in the bucket but it's still a change of direction. And, it marks something very important - he admits there's a problem. Something no one in politics other than people like Bernie Sanders and AOC will do!

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