Poll of the Day > Anime, Manga, VN, JRPG, Related Things Discussion Topic XCII

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agesboy
11/08/20 8:14:15 PM
#255:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvh-zhfTepA

cool

i feel like movies is the best way to adapt progressive, two hours seems right for floor one

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T0ffee
11/08/20 10:19:45 PM
#256:


So the artist for the Goblin Slayer manga is gonna debut as a Vtuber soon.

https://twitter.com/kuroseP/status/1325374075196223488?s=19

It's pretty interesting watching the vtuber boom grow and expand its influence.

It's especially interesting to see mangakas become vtubers because that means that they can get an additional source of income just from streaming and monetizing their drawing process, alongside the regular income they get from publishing their work.

This means that they don't have to rely so much on the whims and popularity rankings of the magazine they're published in/contracted to in order to make a living. Which also means less stress for the artists and could lead to better overall health for the manga industry. Plus, if their current work does get dropped by the magazine, there is a chance they may still continue their work if their streaming audience is big enough to fund it themselves.

Fewer dropped/axed manga is always good in my eyes.

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keyblader1985
11/08/20 10:49:02 PM
#257:


Would they typically be allowed to go solo with their work? I'd think the publisher would still hold some rights even if they cancel the work.

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agesboy
11/08/20 10:54:31 PM
#258:


i think i've seen some famous hentai artists and whatnot be vtubers

fun misc fact: the person who drew and rigged subaru's model was shigure ui, another vtuber who sounds exactly like watame

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likehelly
11/09/20 1:42:26 AM
#259:



PK_Spam posted...
Fuck it, I might just spend 25k gems on Barbatos tonight. He seems like hes gonna be a contender for a top tier attacker, and I already have some good dark units. Hes not a cute girl, but whatever.
i have

one pull

so i will not get him

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Zeus
11/09/20 2:03:30 AM
#260:


T0ffee posted...
So the artist for the Goblin Slayer manga is gonna debut as a Vtuber soon.

https://twitter.com/kuroseP/status/1325374075196223488?s=19

It's pretty interesting watching the vtuber boom grow and expand its influence.

It's especially interesting to see mangakas become vtubers because that means that they can get an additional source of income just from streaming and monetizing their drawing process, alongside the regular income they get from publishing their work.

This means that they don't have to rely so much on the whims and popularity rankings of the magazine they're published in/contracted to in order to make a living. Which also means less stress for the artists and could lead to better overall health for the manga industry. Plus, if their current work does get dropped by the magazine, there is a chance they may still continue their work if their streaming audience is big enough to fund it themselves.

Fewer dropped/axed manga is always good in my eyes.

I see it as more problematic than anything, because it could lead to a decline in the actual manga they're involved in. Plus it doesn't address the issue of them being dropped and even if they were dropped while having all rights to the manga they were involved in, VTubing isn't going to make them more likely to continue the manga because they have VTubing for money. And if VTubing is pulling in more money than manga, obviously that's going to be their focus.

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agesboy
11/09/20 2:06:59 AM
#261:


i feel like it's way more of a plus than minus; both sides can supplement each other

as long as he's entertaining enough anyways

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Zeus
11/09/20 2:18:39 AM
#262:


agesboy posted...
i feel like it's way more of a plus than minus; both sides can supplement each other

Generally speaking, people try to more of the stuff that brings in more money and less of the stuff that brings in less money. If somebody makes it big as a VTuber, they may quickly find themselves doing nothing but that.

agesboy posted...
as long as he's entertaining enough anyways

I have a fundamental issue with this. Partly because streaming content like vtubers is low-thought, low-quality entertainment, but also because it's a throwaway medium that doesn't allow for lasting storytelling or really lasting anything. If it's a gutter-tier mangaka switching getting mixed up in VTubing, maybe that's to the benefit of the genre because they're not taking a spot from a greater talent. However, anybody involved in something like Goblin Slayer getting into vtubing to the detriment of their art is a tragedy.

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agesboy
11/09/20 2:43:54 AM
#263:


Zeus posted...
Partly because streaming content like vtubers is low-thought, low-quality entertainment,
well that's a pretty misinformed bias to begin with

Zeus posted...
but also because it's a throwaway medium that doesn't allow for lasting storytelling or really lasting anything.
depends entirely on the vtuber. akatsuki uni gives daily introductions and explanations for an extremely broad variety of topics, coco also covers daily news for the intended audience of the 25-35 year old viewers she has as they commute to work, some like himari rely heavily on setpieces and scripted videos, and a LOT of them use vtubing as a way to broadcast their talents in a more entertaining way (suisei/chima/watame doing singing streams, luna practicing piano for like 4 hours every night, etc)

you are only seeing the super popular ones who are carried almost entirely by their personality, but there is room and precedent for mangaka to take part in this space in a productive and positive manner for their career

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likehelly
11/09/20 3:33:45 AM
#264:


likehelly posted...
i have

one pull

so i will not get him
i was right

i got asbel

never even played graces

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Zeus
11/09/20 3:40:43 AM
#265:


agesboy posted...
well that's a pretty misinformed bias to begin with

Biased? Perhaps. Misinformed? Not from what I've seen so far. What I've seen -- most of which I've been shown here -- is largely unscripted, off-the-cuff stuff.

agesboy posted...
depends entirely on the vtuber. akatsuki uni gives daily introductions and explanations for an extremely broad variety of topics, coco also covers daily news for the intended audience of the 25-35 year old viewers she has as they commute to work, some like himari rely heavily on setpieces and scripted videos, and a LOT of them use vtubing as a way to broadcast their talents in a more entertaining way (suisei/chima/watame doing singing streams, luna practicing piano for like 4 hours every night, etc)

you are only seeing the super popular ones who are carried almost entirely by their personality, but there is room and precedent for mangaka to take part in this space in a productive and positive manner for their career

But is the content partitioned in a useful manner or is it just the kind of thing where you'd listen to full episodes at a time and maybe pick up some things from them?

And discussing daily news automatically dates content. Within a few weeks it becomes almost worthless (especially given that you'd want to just go to where they originally got their information at that point). Meanwhile a lot of manga have a timeless quality. People routinely read things written over 25 years ago. Can you imagine sitting and just leaving to somebody discussing what happened in the news 25 years ago? That doesn't really have the same impact.

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agesboy
11/09/20 3:42:14 AM
#266:


asbel was a terrible human being for early parts of graces and thats why hes great

childhood friend gf dying of a terminal illness? lol lets just not see her for like ten fucking years or something after a traumatic experience

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likehelly
11/09/20 4:08:23 AM
#267:


lol

i read the latest mha

the worst best kept secret was finally revealed

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PK_Spam
11/09/20 4:22:51 AM
#268:


agesboy posted...
childhood friend gf dying of a terminal illness? lol lets just not see her for like ten fucking years or something after a traumatic experience
I mean, he did watch one of his friends explode. That could be pretty traumatizing to a kid whos also internalizing that his childhood is effectively over and his family is gonna break up.

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 6:02:29 AM
#269:


Vtubing has the potential for storytelling even if right now it's mostly just variety streaming. Lasting value is sort of a moot point when content is being produced faster than it can physically be watched.

Calling streaming in general low effort is a bit mixed for me. 5 minutes of streaming is far easier than 5 minutes of just about any other form of content, but you don't stream for 5 minutes, you stream for many hours in a row, and that is collectively very high effort. Being entertaining for 2-8 hours in a row, without anyone else to talk to, is really hard, especially day after day. You don't have 8 hours of shit to talk about a day.

I also don't think mangaka are "normal" people. Being a mangaka in general is an inefficient way to make money. It's the kind of job you only do if you are really passionate about it. I wouldn't expect many of them to prioritize higher profit over artistic fulfillment as long as they can still live comfortably.

My first point is something I find a bit interesting because anime is getting closer and closer to the same realm of saturation. It's getting very hard to keep up with an entire season because more and more new anime come out every year. For a lot of people, they feel like theres no time to go back and watch stuff from previous seasons because they are always "behind". This is only going to increase as time goes on and it's interesting to see from my perspective. I think it's really waiting for about twice as much seasonal content to hit critical mass. The point where you can watch only genres you like and still not be able to keep up with all of it. It really changes the way anime is discussed.

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 8:02:56 AM
#270:


Which shonen anime leave the OP good guy alive. By OP good guy I don't mean main character, I mean the characters that are already world class at the start of the show. People like all might. Watching jujutsu kaisen right now and it has a similar thing. Theres one good guy that is the strongest in the world and it's so clear that he is going to be at least in some way taken out of commission, because he is too powerful for the story to progress. What anime leave these people in?

I can think only of hunter x hunter right now. I mean, eventually they kill off some of the strong characters, but thats a long long way in and even then, theres people like hisoka that could presumably handle anything that comes up.

I didn't watch far enough into black clover to see if the magic king or whatever they called it ever got taken out but I'm almost certain he would get taken out so the main people can matter.

DBZ doesn't really have anyone that fits this. Each new enemy is the strongest ever and the good guys must rise to meet the challenge.

Bleach doesn't really have anyone that fits either IIRC.

One piece doesn't really have this as far as I had watched (which was a bit over 100 episodes). They have people way stronger than the main characters, but none that are actively supporting them.

Naruto has at least one that gets taken out. I haven't seen it to it's conclusion either though.

It's just kind of a bummer to see one of these characters and know "oh yeah, the story is going to either kill them or weaken them 100%".

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deoxxys
11/09/20 8:51:04 AM
#271:


Streaming for multiple hours a day without taking breaks is difficult.

We see it as easy because we don't have to do it ourselves. We think how hard could it be to play a video game in front of people? But there's a lot more to it than that . If you want to be successful you have to be entertaining. Also you have to be conscientious of your language and how you talk even somewhat more brusk personalities like xqc and Dr disrespect have to be somewhat politically correct if they don't want to be wrote off by some aholf tabloid as evil.

That being said I'd love to be a streamer or a vtuber, I think I have the personality for it I just don't know how to get a large following or the dedication it takes to begin getting a following big enough to quit your main job. Also who knows maybe people just wouldn't like me. There's also probably a lot to compete with.

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 9:02:52 AM
#272:


If you don't have enough fun streaming to 3-5 people for no money then you probably shouldn't bother. If you do, then just be consistent and hope you blow up. Or migrate an audience from something like youtube. That's probably more reliable.

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 9:11:54 AM
#273:


Hololive doing an among us collab. Calli might be the worst player I've ever seen. It's actually peak comedy. Expect clips to pop up like after the first round when she singlehandedly lost the game but thought she won for like 30 seconds or the 3rd game that lasted like 25 minutes cause she couldn't find her last few tasks and kept running away from everyone.

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Judgmenl
11/09/20 9:14:01 AM
#274:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
Hololive doing an among us collab. Calli might be the worst player I've ever seen. It's actually peak comedy. Expect clips to pop up like after the first round when she singlehandedly lost the game but thought she won for like 30 seconds or the 3rd game that lasted like 25 minutes cause she couldn't find her last few tasks and kept running away from everyone.
The problem is that Calli doesn't actually know how to play video games.

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 9:17:13 AM
#275:


Judgmenl posted...
The problem is that Calli doesn't actually know how to play video games.
True but even still.

Also it was pretty heartwarming seeing her cheer up kiara earlier when the minecraft thing stopped working again. Good day for calli clips all around.

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Wanded
11/09/20 9:44:27 AM
#276:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
Which shonen anime leave the OP good guy alive. By OP good guy I don't mean main character, I mean the characters that are already world class at the start of the show. People like all might. Watching jujutsu kaisen right now and it has a similar thing. Theres one good guy that is the strongest in the world and it's so clear that he is going to be at least in some way taken out of commission, because he is too powerful for the story to progress. What anime leave these people in?

I can think only of hunter x hunter right now. I mean, eventually they kill off some of the strong characters, but thats a long long way in and even then, theres people like hisoka that could presumably handle anything that comes up.

I didn't watch far enough into black clover to see if the magic king or whatever they called it ever got taken out but I'm almost certain he would get taken out so the main people can matter.

DBZ doesn't really have anyone that fits this. Each new enemy is the strongest ever and the good guys must rise to meet the challenge.

Bleach doesn't really have anyone that fits either IIRC.

One piece doesn't really have this as far as I had watched (which was a bit over 100 episodes). They have people way stronger than the main characters, but none that are actively supporting them.

Naruto has at least one that gets taken out. I haven't seen it to it's conclusion either though.

It's just kind of a bummer to see one of these characters and know "oh yeah, the story is going to either kill them or weaken them 100%".
bleach, one piece and naruto have these, but the main characters eventually surpass them

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 9:46:42 AM
#277:


Wanded posted...
bleach, one piece and naruto have these, but the main characters eventually surpass them
Who is it in bleach and one piece?

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likehelly
11/09/20 10:37:09 AM
#279:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
Who is it in bleach and one piece?
bleach is captain genryusai

one piece is probably whitebeard, though no one really knows how strong anyone in that show is that isn't anyone the main characters have fought

i can't think of anyone for naruto though

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 11:33:31 AM
#280:


likehelly posted...
bleach is captain genryusai
Wow I completely forgot he existed. Been a long time since I've seen bleach.

likehelly posted...
one piece is probably whitebeard, though no one really knows how strong anyone in that show is that isn't anyone the main characters have fought
He isn't even introduced till after I stopped watching over 100 episodes in. As I haven't gotten that far, I guess I can't really comment.

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PK_Spam
11/09/20 12:02:36 PM
#281:


I didnt get Barbatos, but I DID get Halloween Asbel, who gives some great debuffs, so I couldve done worse. So it looks like Im gonna be grinding out Dark raids to buff him and Chronos up.

So it looks like my light team has their work cut out for them.



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likehelly
11/09/20 12:23:34 PM
#282:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
Wow I completely forgot he existed. Been a long time since I've seen bleach.
you

you forgot the head captain of the 13 court guard squads...existed?

also, there was someone who died later than him who literally had the ability to write someone out of existence, so that's pretty strong too i think

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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 12:38:04 PM
#283:


Here is clip of calli being maybe the worst among us player I've ever seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvEPHBc2YYY

Note the tasks and task bar as well.

likehelly posted...
you forgot the head captain of the 13 court guard squads...existed?
Yeah. I mostly just remember ichigo fighting captains and then yuroichi having flash step fight with someone and people saying BANKAI! a lot. Oh and that aizen was a bad dude. I didn't watch too much further than the soul society arc. Probably been 15 years since I saw any of it. I might rewatch it for when the last season comes around but lately it's tough to handle more than 1-2 episodes a day.

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likehelly
11/09/20 1:08:57 PM
#284:




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agesboy
11/09/20 2:06:31 PM
#285:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
Which shonen anime leave the OP good guy alive. By OP good guy I don't mean main character, I mean the characters that are already world class at the start of the show. People like all might. Watching jujutsu kaisen right now and it has a similar thing. Theres one good guy that is the strongest in the world and it's so clear that he is going to be at least in some way taken out of commission, because he is too powerful for the story to progress. What anime leave these people in?
Fairy Tail? As of like episode 100~ that I watched, Erza was still significantly stronger than anyone else except maybe Natsu under resolve powerups or in specific matchups. She's usually just given the role of stalling a huge amount of enemies or fighting the other OP bad guy on her level.

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PK_Spam
11/09/20 2:08:02 PM
#286:


likehelly posted...
Oh... honey...lead with Rutee.

Acid Rain is really good.

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likehelly
11/09/20 2:10:16 PM
#287:


no

anyways, i managed to get another pull and got fuck all nothing

i got kor, i didn't even get a ssr

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agesboy
11/09/20 2:11:42 PM
#288:


new genshin upgrade goes up on tuesday/early wednesday btw

lotta qol stuff happening

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likehelly
11/09/20 2:13:42 PM
#289:


like what

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PK_Spam
11/09/20 2:15:48 PM
#290:


likehelly posted...
no

anyways, i managed to get another pull and got fuck all nothing

i got kor, i didn't even get a ssr
I did ten 10 pulls and only got 2 SSRs, so count your blessings lol.

You have a good offensive team anyway.

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agesboy
11/09/20 2:19:21 PM
#291:


being able to store resin for later, being able to accept two dungeon runs of loot with one clear, city reputation and exploration progress to help track completion (they're also retroactive), ore tracking on map tied to reputation, new area, increased max resin, quick slot for food/potions, and free fischl (best 4* in the game by far, better than most 5*) in an upcoming event

plus new quests and whatnot, plus playable childe

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likehelly
11/09/20 2:21:45 PM
#292:


new area?

i might check it out then

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agesboy
11/09/20 2:32:31 PM
#293:


https://twitter.com/pup_hime/status/1325877269668237319

finally pso2 na is playable

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T0ffee
11/09/20 2:39:43 PM
#294:


Oh my heart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIU5_GCNL8Q


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likehelly
11/09/20 2:42:03 PM
#295:


where are the nipples

are they being covered up like that

boobs don't really work that way

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agesboy
11/09/20 2:53:24 PM
#296:


likehelly posted...
boobs don't really work that way

https://media.nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/30191006/phantasy-star-online-2-05-30-19-4.jpg

u think

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Zeus
11/09/20 5:18:58 PM
#297:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
Vtubing has the potential for storytelling even if right now it's mostly just variety streaming. Lasting value is sort of a moot point when content is being produced faster than it can physically be watched.

That's a garbage-in, garbage-out kind of argument that minimalizes the value of art and artistic expression in general. And a large reason why "content is being produced faster than it can be watched" is because so much content nowadays is just unscripted talking into a camera, maybe while doing something else.

While I'd been critical of platforms like YT, at least there was SOME editing and scripted content there. (And nowadays we have a few channels with extremely well-put-together content; AbsoluteHistory, for example, feels like something that's on an actual network... but, afaik, it's just YT.)

Just because content is coming out at a faster clip than ever doesn't mean most of it is worth watching. And for some genres, the amount of halfway decent content coming out annually is like nothing.

YoukaiSlayer posted...
Calling streaming in general low effort is a bit mixed for me. 5 minutes of streaming is far easier than 5 minutes of just about any other form of content, but you don't stream for 5 minutes, you stream for many hours in a row, and that is collectively very high effort. Being entertaining for 2-8 hours in a row, without anyone else to talk to, is really hard, especially day after day. You don't have 8 hours of shit to talk about a day.

Probably why so much of what they do isn't terribly entertaining. And do all of them really stream 8 hours a day? Because it feels like you're trying to make a 1:1 comparison with working a normal job. When I see replays of streams, they're usually only 2-3 hours long.

YoukaiSlayer posted...
I also don't think mangaka are "normal" people. Being a mangaka in general is an inefficient way to make money. It's the kind of job you only do if you are really passionate about it. I wouldn't expect many of them to prioritize higher profit over artistic fulfillment as long as they can still live comfortably.

It's more than that, though. There's the potential for very high money in a lot of artistic endeavors which gets people into them and keeps them going. And the reason people wind up leaving them is because they start making so much money doing something else.

YoukaiSlayer posted...
My first point is something I find a bit interesting because anime is getting closer and closer to the same realm of saturation. It's getting very hard to keep up with an entire season because more and more new anime come out every year. For a lot of people, they feel like theres no time to go back and watch stuff from previous seasons because they are always "behind". This is only going to increase as time goes on and it's interesting to see from my perspective. I think it's really waiting for about twice as much seasonal content to hit critical mass. The point where you can watch only genres you like and still not be able to keep up with all of it. It really changes the way anime is discussed.

Kind of a weird argument since most people don't want to watch every single anime that comes out each year, plus if the reason people don't have time to watch anime is because they're watching VTubers, that's kinda... well, there's probably a good analogy, I just can't think of one.

At any rate, those older anime (and shows in general) don't "expire" or age out. They'll always be there. There's a lot of stuff I didn't watch when it came out that I've seen decades after the fact. To some extent, having a backlog is a very good thing -- it's like having your own personal lobster tank (given that this is an anime topic, I might need to clarify that it's a Santa Clarita Diet reference which, in the show, refers to them keeping tabs on Neo Nazis who the wife plans to eat). Granted, it's somewhat problematic when it comes to games, though, or things you physically own that eat up space.

At the same time, for specific genres, there isn't nearly enough coming out.

YoukaiSlayer posted...
Which shonen anime leave the OP good guy alive. By OP good guy I don't mean main character, I mean the characters that are already world class at the start of the show. People like all might. Watching jujutsu kaisen right now and it has a similar thing. Theres one good guy that is the strongest in the world and it's so clear that he is going to be at least in some way taken out of commission, because he is too powerful for the story to progress. What anime leave these people in?

Well, the problem there is that they're often the mentor archetype and death is a large part of the mentor trope. Then a lot of the others exist just to show off how strong characters can be and then have somebody who can job to the series' big bad to make the hero beating the villain more impressive.

Otherwise, there are a lot of kinda OP characters in anime who the hero eventually surpasses who live (some of whom start off as villains then become "we're allies, but not friends" who play a role in major fights -- often beating top-tier villains who might present a challenge for the heroes -- but aren't part of the team)

Offhand, one example is S-Cry-Ed. Technically Ryuho is an antagonist at the start then a reluctant ally and Kazuma briefly surpasses him at times, but he's still tied with Kazuma for being the strongest Alter-user at the end (given that they're kinda stuck in a very long, evenly-matched battle that's suggested will go on for years at the end). Love that anime in general, tbh.

For Street Fighter II V, Guile kicks the shit out of Ryu and Ken in his first appearance (after they beat up his soldiers who had been behaving badly) and is generally one of the strongest characters. While he lost against Bison, the only reason Ryu and Ken beat Bison is because they teamed up and had access to Hadoko. If Guile had learned Hadoku, he might have beaten Bison alone.


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YoukaiSlayer
11/09/20 5:42:30 PM
#298:


Zeus posted...
That's a garbage-in, garbage-out kind of argument that minimalizes the value of art and artistic expression in general.
I think it very much counters some of your points. You were talking about stuff like news segments eventually not mattering and stuff like that but if you want to watch that type of content, there is always a new version of it. People don't say something like a nightly talk show is useless even though it's episodes effectively expire, because theres always new content that isn't currently expired that you can watch instead.

The supposition is that you like vtuber content to begin with. If you do, the fact that some of it "expires" is meaningless, because theres always fresh new content of the same type, and almost certainly more than you could possibly consume.
Zeus posted...
Probably why so much of what they do isn't terribly entertaining.
Thats just like,your opinion, man.

Zeus posted...
And do all of them really stream 8 hours a day?
I said 2-8 and it depends. A lot of the times when you see a 2-3 hour stream, thats not the only stream they are doing that day. Sometimes they might even have 3-4 streams in a single day. Sometimes, they don't stream as much and sometimes you get crazy long streams that basically go on all day if not a downright 24 hour stream.

It's hard stressful work, at least if you want to be good enough to retain viewership and make a living.

Zeus posted...
There's the potential for very high money in a lot of artistic endeavors which gets people into them and keeps them going.
This just isn't the case with a majority of mangaka. Being a mangaka, especially for a weekly series, is stupidly hard work and most of them don't make a ton of money. I really don't think most of them are in it for the chance at a lot of money. It's really hard to work on an artistic project for potentially 60+ hours a week if you don't really care about it for it's own sake.

Zeus posted...
Well, the problem there is that they're often the mentor archetype and death is a large part of the mentor trope.
I fully understand the problem. They are too big of an impediment to the bad guys. Most shonen want to maximize stakes for the main character so the main character needs to be the last line of defense. It just really hurts the story for me when I see a character early on and think "oh, he's too good, there's no way they let him keep being this good". Anything that obvious and that in advance takes tension out of the story.

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agesboy
11/09/20 5:44:29 PM
#299:


Zeus posted...
At any rate, those older anime (and shows in general) don't "expire" or age out. They'll always be there. There's a lot of stuff I didn't watch when it came out that I've seen decades after the fact.
the fact that you can't see vtuber content having the same consumption longevity or quality isn't because vtuber content is innately less legitimate but your own shortsightedness for a genre of entertainment you barely know of or partake in

it's literally the same kind of shortsightedness of people who take a glance at anime and dismiss them as children's cartoons, never to be on the level of the real literature that they know so much more about

not to mention we are still in the very early days of modern vtubers; they've only really exploded in popularity in the past year or so. and stuff from their earliest days continues to rack up viewership as new viewers go back and explore

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Zeus
11/09/20 9:10:50 PM
#300:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
I think it very much counters some of your points. You were talking about stuff like news segments eventually not mattering and stuff like that but if you want to watch that type of content, there is always a new version of it. People don't say something like a nightly talk show is useless even though it's episodes effectively expire, because theres always new content that isn't currently expired that you can watch instead.

The supposition is that you like vtuber content to begin with. If you do, the fact that some of it "expires" is meaningless, because theres always fresh new content of the same type, and almost certainly more than you could possibly consume.

The new content replacing the old is exactly where I was going with my garbage in, garbage out argument. While stuff is constantly being made, it has no lasting value. And then those VTubers fade into obscurity, there's no enduring quality to show for it.

And nightly talk shows are pretty much useless after their initial airing. It's kind of a given. However, even nightly talk shows have more that goes into them than VTubers and other streamers. Even old episodes of game shows -- which also a constant stream of product -- maintain their watchability, unlike those other things (with the exception of game shows that were exclusively contemporary pop culture)

YoukaiSlayer posted...
It's hard stressful work, at least if you want to be good enough to retain viewership and make a living.

Doesn't really sound like an improvement for mangaka then? And, if anything, that's more likely to distract them from working on manga.

In general, Phil DeFranco (the shitty news show Youtuber) has talked about being too scared to go on a vacation because he's worried that in the days he's gone his sub count will tank and he'll lose a good chunk of his audience. Not really a great way to live.

YoukaiSlayer posted...
I fully understand the problem. They are too big of an impediment to the bad guys.

Well, that's not really the part I was referencing. Part of the whole mentor theme is that characters need to reach the point when they're able to stand on their own two feet, so killing off a mentor character is designed to stir character growth. Gurren Lagann is a great example, since Simon (sp?) would have languished in his brother's shadow had he not died, at which point he increasingly took the reins. And keep in mind that the character who died wasn't even OP.

Of course, the more classic examples are like Obi-Wan from Star Wars

YoukaiSlayer posted...
Most shonen want to maximize stakes for the main character so the main character needs to be the last line of defense. It just really hurts the story for me when I see a character early on and think "oh, he's too good, there's no way they let him keep being this good". Anything that obvious and that in advance takes tension out of the story.

Yeah, but you have other ways of getting around that beyond killing them off. The hero might get a lot stronger, he might develop some new power, etc, that puts him ahead of the OP character. Or the OP character might suffer some temporary setback that either reduces his power or removes him from the conflict.

In One Piece, Silvers Raleigh was absurdly strong... but after the death of Gold Roger, he chose to go into seclusion. Actually, in OP you have Shanks himself which is among the world's strongest pirates who is destined to survive to the end.

agesboy posted...
the fact that you can't see vtuber content having the same consumption longevity or quality isn't because vtuber content is innately less legitimate but your own shortsightedness for a genre of entertainment you barely know of or partake in

Although you refuse to recognize it, vtubing is just the latest part of a very long content trend. You can pretend that it's a new thing, but it's fundamentally not -- certainly not enough that we can't look at the broader trend to make accurate predictions. At this point, comparable content goes back at least a decade.

Nor is using an animated avatar for a YT personality a new idea. People have been doing that for close in a decade in some cases as well. The way it's done is different, but the concept isn't new.

agesboy posted...
it's literally the same kind of shortsightedness of people who take a glance at anime and dismiss them as children's cartoons, never to be on the level of the real literature that they know so much more about

Except it's not, and you know that's a disingenuous argument. And even the cartoons that weren't high art have often had lasting value, unlike vtubing. Scooby Doo has been a major cultural institution despite the original shows being pretty lousy (although well within the standards of the time). The franchise has done a LOT since then, some good some bad, but all of it is content that you could watch today and still have it be relevant.

However, how much lasting value do you suspect an animated dog vtuber's streams will have? Today they might be moderately entertaining, but the library would have little value and then eventually it would fall into the vast nothing that awaits almost all streams.

But let me ask you something: How many streams have you watched more than once? How many streams do you think you could watch a dozen times? How many streams do you think you could legitimately list as your favorite entertainment ever? While you could argue that vtubing is in its infancy (which it is and isn't), ultimately it's disposable content. As much as I crap on reality tv, at least that has a certain amount of staying power and enough story to it that people will watch it many times and it should hold up decades down the road.


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agesboy
11/09/20 10:56:30 PM
#301:


Zeus posted...
But let me ask you something: How many streams have you watched more than once?
I've rewatched Pekora's playthrough of the convenience store horror game about three times, Subaru's attempts on the hardest boss of undertale twice (it was about two or three days of attempts), Korone and Miku's doom playthroughs are entertain enough throughout for me to have rewatched one more time each, and there are a couple of Miko's GTA5 streams I've rewatched because they're a legendary source of memes at this point. Additionally, there are dozens of shorter translated clips I've rewatched a bunch of times (like Kuzuha being socially awkward, Furen not knowing basic math, Pekora whining about gachas) because they bring back the good memories of those streams' initial runs

these streams put together alone outpace the amount of anime i've watched in the past couple years combined, much less rewatched (in the past decade I've only ever actually rewatched one show, and that's the terrible PSO2 one that's easy to digest while grinding in mmos)

and i am one of the more "casual" vtuber fans

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YoukaiSlayer
11/10/20 5:16:11 AM
#302:


Zeus posted...
The new content replacing the old is exactly where I was going with my garbage in, garbage out argument.
The argument hinges on the content being garbage though which again, is just your opinion. Even IF the content had no lasting appeal (which isn't true) it wouldn't matter. The need for lasting appeal is only if there is scarcity of said content. I don't know why you focus on that as if it's an important metric. It's not.

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Zeus
11/10/20 5:33:59 AM
#303:


YoukaiSlayer posted...
The need for lasting appeal is only if there is scarcity of said content.

No, there's an intrinsic appeal to lasting content. Since the industrial revolution, scarcity has rarely even been a major issue. However, despite the fact that countless things come out every year, you have things produced decades ago (or, in the case of music, plays, and books, hundreds of years ago) which that have stood the test of time and are still enjoyed to this day.

If something created is truly great, it will generally last or be rediscovered. The argument of lasting appeal is a testament to the enduring quality of a work. But conversely if you're carrying your argument that art has no value beyond what it makes for the artist then sure, issues like an artist's legacy go out the window, the quality associated with their art has no meaning, and the only thing that carries any value is the money they're able to get from fans. In that kind of an instance, our starting points are so far apart that we're unlikely to ever see eye-to-eye.

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YoukaiSlayer
11/10/20 5:46:13 AM
#304:


Scarcity of content has been a thing for a long time. There's only so many books in each genre, etc.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I care much about what it makes for the artist in terms of money. If theres constantly NEW good stuff to watch, theres no reason to go back and watch old stuff. A lot of people feel that way, largely because of the social aspect of discussing "current" content. You aren't really a part of that so I'm not surprised it all makes no sense to you.

Some content also isn't really meant to last, like something that has to do with pop culture for instance, but that doesn't make it bad. As long as the initial viewing is enjoyable, it's more than ok.

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dragon504
11/10/20 2:36:19 PM
#305:


What's that Tales game you guys've been playing and how easy would it be to play it on pc?

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