Poll of the Day > Donald Trump is spreading COVID: Part 2

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adjl
10/15/20 11:21:30 AM
#451:


papercup posted...
Herd immunity is not a desired outcome.

It is the desired outcome, just not by natural means. That's what vaccines are for.

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captpackrat
10/15/20 11:25:16 AM
#452:


OhhhJa posted...
Herd immunity is real though. How do you think humanity conquered outbreaks like the black plague before vaccines existed?
You do realize that the Black Death resulted in the deaths of 75 to 200 MILLION people and killed about half the population of Europe, right?

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papercup
10/15/20 11:27:20 AM
#453:


adjl posted...
It is the desired outcome, just not by natural means. That's what vaccines are for.

Sure yeah that's what I mean. Just letting people get sick and die in large numbers, not a good plan.

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OhhhJa
10/15/20 11:41:53 AM
#454:


captpackrat posted...
You do realize that the Black Death resulted in the deaths of 75 to 200 MILLION people and killed about half the population of Europe, right?
It was also waaaaay deadlier than covid
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Clench281
10/15/20 11:48:07 AM
#455:


when did it happen that we care about the opinions of random nobodies on the internet about how to handle a global health crisis?

lmao

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OhhhJa
10/15/20 12:30:00 PM
#456:


Cant find evidence that the petition has fake names. Only articles saying so. Can someone find the petition so I can see it? Not that a couple fake names discredits it anyway

What I did find was this:

https://gbdeclaration.org/

Declaration was authored and co signed by medical professionals from various universities. Are those fake people? Do their medical opinions matter or do you only care about the medical opinions of deeply entrenched bureaucrats? It's become increasingly clear to me that people don't actually respect science. They respect scientific authority
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Clench281
10/15/20 12:41:38 PM
#457:


Ill tell you exactly how I feel about that, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said when asked about whether herd immunity is a viable strategy for the U.S. to adopt. If you let infections rip as it were and say, Let everybody get infected thats going to be able to get infected and then well have herd immunity. Quite frankly that is nonsense, and anybody who knows anything about epidemiology will tell you that that is nonsense and very dangerous,

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OhhhJa
10/15/20 1:07:12 PM
#458:


It what way does fauci saying this automatically dismiss what other medical experts from universities like Oxford, Stanford, and Harvard are saying. This just reinforces what I was saying about people respecting scientific authority and not actual science. Since when should science or health expertise be reduced to one guys opinion no matter his credentials. Science should always be peer reviewed and subject to discourse. Fauci is nothing but a bureaucrat anymore. He isn't studying anything himself and hasn't for years. His white coat is merely a uniform at this point

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adjl
10/15/20 1:18:37 PM
#459:


OhhhJa posted...
It what way does fauci saying this automatically dismiss what other medical experts from universities like Oxford, Stanford, and Harvard are saying.

Because it's infinitely more in line with basic common sense: The herd immunity threshold for Covid is currently unknown, but any informed speculation as to what it might be suggests that it will be very high (due to how rapidly it spreads if left unchecked and how difficult it is to prevent that spread reactively), if it can be reached naturally at all (given how short-lived natural immunity seems to be). Blindly hurtling toward that hypothetical threshold with no idea how far off it might be or how many lives that will cost is a terrible idea. In the absence of hard evidence one way or the other (namely, "the threshold is X, here's what that implies"), I'm significantly more inclined to go with the approach that's more consistent with common sense, erring on the side of caution.

Simply, that letter is written well enough to sound convincing, but there's no actual evidence presented to support the viability of the approach is suggests. The primary basis for suggesting it is that more restrictive efforts to control the virus interfere with other medical and basic human needs, which is fundamentally flawed because it ignores that options exist for solving those challenges without giving up on restrictions entirely (e.g. online learning, dedicated cancer screening and vaccination clinics with stricter anti-Covid protocols to protect patients). Phrases like "grave injustice" are nothing more than flimsy emotional appeals that have no place in what's supposed to be a medicine-based plan of action.

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Mead
10/15/20 1:21:05 PM
#460:


I bet Fauci mailed his ballot for Biden same day he got it

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OhhhJa
10/15/20 1:28:55 PM
#461:


adjl posted...
Because it's infinitely more in line with basic common sense: The herd immunity threshold for Covid is currently unknown, but any informed speculation as to what it might be suggests that it will be very high (due to how rapidly it spreads if left unchecked and how difficult it is to prevent that spread reactively), if it can be reached naturally at all (given how short-lived natural immunity seems to be). Blindly hurtling toward that hypothetical threshold with no idea how far off it might be or how many lives that will cost is a terrible idea. In the absence of hard evidence one way or the other (namely, "the threshold is X, here's what that implies"), I'm significantly more inclined to go with the approach that's more consistent with common sense, erring on the side of caution.
I find the current approach to be quite destructive honestly and so do many other health experts. The current approach has no foreseeable endpoint. We dont even know if a vaccine for this will even be as reliable as a flu vaccine at this point or when we'll even see a safe, effective vaccine. Keeping the economy even partially locked down until that point is going to prove to be far more destructive than isolating immuno-compromised people and resuming life as normal. There are tons of industries right now that womt recover from this, at least not within a reasonable time frame
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Clench281
10/15/20 1:52:40 PM
#462:


OhhhJa posted...
Fauci is nothing but a bureaucrat anymore. He isn't studying anything himself and hasn't for years. His white coat is merely a uniform at this point

...he's actively studying and publishing work about COVID, on top of other research.

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=0dDO3SAAAAAJ&view_op=list_works&sortby=pubdate


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adjl
10/15/20 2:25:45 PM
#463:


Side note: Ctrl+W is the worst shortcut ever. This post was longer before it all got swallowed by me hitting ctrl instead of shift.

OhhhJa posted...
I find the current approach to be quite destructive honestly

Of course it's destructive. It's a goddamn pandemic. A global outbreak of a deadly disease is always going to be destructive, no matter how people respond to it. That's simply inevitable.

OhhhJa posted...
The current approach has no foreseeable endpoint.

Genuine endpoint, as in everything returns to normal and this whole thing becomes nothing more than a chapter in history books? Yeah, who knows when that's happening. But all of these infection control strategies come with roadmaps for gradually resuming normal life as case numbers reach reasonable levels. Nobody is saying "let's just shut everything down indefinitely." With good compliance rates, it's not actually that hard to get Covid under control, and plenty of countries and regions have basically been able to return to normal aside from wearing masks and ordering takeout more often. Arts and tourism are really the only industries that can't mostly get back to normal (and even the staunchest anti-lockdown folks aren't advocating for a return to normal, unrestricted tourism) until an actual end is in sight, which is obviously not ideal, but it's far from the economic catastrophe you're so afraid of.

Now, will Americans ever comply well enough to progress along those roadmaps? That's another question. Large swaths of the US are being terribly 'Murkin about the whole issue and dragging it out much longer than necessary, and at some point it is going to be necessary to accept that the whiny babies are going to keep the safe approach from working and necessitate something more dangerous. "Do nothing and hope for the best" still isn't going to be a good idea, but the country is not going to be able to keep stimulating the economy indefinitely (especially not if every stimulus bill consists mostly of bonuses for executives and nothing for people that actually need money to get through it), so something more relaxed may be needed.

OhhhJa posted...
We dont even know if a vaccine for this will even be as reliable as a flu vaccine at this point or when we'll even see a safe, effective vaccine

I'd expect six months or so before we have some concrete answers on that, with vaccine deployment reaching herd immunity levels by the end of next year. It's still a ways off, but not so far that it's reasonable to give up on the possibility of a vaccine working and proceed as though it won't. If trials haven't yielded anything in ~6 months, then it's time to start exploring other alternatives, but so far there's no reason to believe a vaccine will never be possible.

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Entity13
10/15/20 10:53:41 PM
#464:


OhhhJa posted...
So you're saying it mostly disappeared because people smartened up? Lol ok

That is not what I'm saying. Granted, speaking as a healer main in MMOs, I get the cynicism of people being smart enough to do anything worthwhile, but that is still not quite what I said - some miraculous effort to eliminate the illness. People notice patterns, people take actions when it affects their survival or comfort, and the first wave of Black Death versus the second is not much different. People took steps to reduce the impact. Then the cause of it was eventually contained. Herd immunity, by definition, is a theory at best regarding the Black Death, and what I am actually saying is just as likely.

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likehelly
10/16/20 12:32:37 AM
#465:


OhhhJa posted...
Keeping the economy even partially locked down until that point is going to prove to be far more destructive than isolating immuno-compromised people and resuming life as normal. There are tons of industries right now that womt recover from this, at least not within a reasonable time frame
i would say that those industries would be ruined either way when their workers start getting sick and...they have to close down anyways due to lack of employees. not to mention that those businesses that do offer insurance, they will be wrung through the ringer trying to cover hospital stays for multiple or many people, if they need it. having to go on a ventilator isn't cheap, same with just being in a hospital in general.

it's not just immuno-compromised people who are at risk, either. it's everyone who is at risk. covid does not discriminate.

OhhhJa posted...
Herd immunity is real though. How do you think humanity conquered outbreaks like the black plague before vaccines existed?
how do you consider 25+ million people dying as "conquered" the black plague? that sounds to me like they didn't conquer it, and by all accounts, they didn't. it killed a third of asia/europes population.

it's also not gone, either. it's still around. it still exists in some forms. the most recent case of someone getting it is June. of THIS YEAR. the reason why it's not that big of a threat anymore is due to vaccines, increased hygiene practices, and actually having the knowledge to combat it. we live in an age of having all the worlds information at your fingertips literally anywhere. we have advanced medical knowledge. we don't have people saying your blood has demons, do cocaine. we have vaccines, we have antibiotics, we have medicine. tylenol is far and beyond anything they had back in the 1300's.

do you consider the 1.1 million deaths from covid as having conquered it?

it also was not herd immunity that eventually stopped the original black plague. what stopped it was that it was too deadly to exist. literally, it killed itself. it's the same thing that stopped the spanish flu. it was too deadly to sustain itself, so it evolved into a milder form that could proliferate instead of killing itself.

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Wanded
10/16/20 2:22:58 AM
#466:


https://imgur.com/O75uffF


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Metalsonic66
10/16/20 2:24:10 AM
#467:


Wow, no tie? So disrespectful to the United States of America.

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ClarkDuke
10/17/20 4:11:50 AM
#468:


OhhhJa posted...
Deranged people like this infesting the democrat party in the last 4 years are pushing people away from the party. But seriously, this is super psychotic
if only you were capable of self awareness, only then could you see the hypocrisy in what you posted here, ok?

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ClarkDuke
10/17/20 4:13:37 AM
#469:


Wanded posted...
<a dir="ltr" href="https://imgur.com/O75uffF" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="31">https://imgur.com/O75uffF</a>;
his hair cut reminds me of blanche, from the golden girls, ok?

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shadowsword87
10/17/20 4:16:03 AM
#470:


For the record, the black death still exists in rural mongolia and rural china. It's really sad.

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adjl
10/17/20 11:25:02 AM
#471:


Wanded posted...
https://imgur.com/O75uffF

I don't even know if that's real or not. It could easily be somebody making a joke, or it could just as easily be Trump actually being that ridiculous.

shadowsword87 posted...
For the record, the black death still exists in rural mongolia and rural china. It's really sad.

Oh, it's all over the place. There was actually a sizable outbreak of it in Madagascar like a year ago. It's just fairly easy to treat with antibiotics these days, and is really only dangerous if left untreated (in which case you're probably going to die).

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captpackrat
10/17/20 12:31:15 PM
#472:


adjl posted...
Oh, it's all over the place. There was actually a sizable outbreak of it in Madagascar like a year ago. It's just fairly easy to treat with antibiotics these days, and is really only dangerous if left untreated (in which case you're probably going to die).

Recently, two strains of Yersinia pestis were found to exhibit antibiotic resistance. Y. pestis 17/95 carries 8 antibiotic resistances on a plasmid of 150 kb called pIP1202 and is reported to exhibit high-level resistance to eight antimicrobial agents used for treatment and some prophylactic drugs. It is also resistant to some of the typical alternative drugs such as ampicillin, kanamycin, and spectinomycin. Whilst Y. pestis 16/95 has only streptomycin resistance on a plasmid of 40 kb called pIP1203, it remains susceptible to other antibiotic treatment.

Currently, both of these strains are confined to Madagascar. If they reach another country in which the plague is endemic, antibiotic resistant genes could be spread to the endemic plague population.

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adjl
10/17/20 12:33:25 PM
#473:


Yeah, that would suck. There are still antibiotics that can treat antibiotic-resistant stuff, but they tend to be the ones with nastier side effects that doctors prefer to avoid using except as an absolute last resort.

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shadowsword87
10/17/20 12:37:19 PM
#474:


adjl posted...
Yeah, that would suck. There are still antibiotics that can treat antibiotic-resistant stuff, but they tend to be the ones with nastier side effects that doctors prefer to avoid using except as an absolute last resort.

And yet, my SO's doctors keep flinging antibotics at her.

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captpackrat
10/17/20 12:50:19 PM
#475:


Yersinia pestis causes three different forms of plague, bubonic, septicemic, and pneumonic.

Bubonic plague is usually spread by fleas. An infected flea bite allows the bacteria to enter the skin, which then travels through the lymphatic system to the lymph nodes, which become swollen. The infection can also spread by direct contact with infected tissue. Mortality rate is 40-60% if untreated, 1-15% with antibiotics.

Pneumonic plague is caused by inhaling aerosolised bacteria resulting in a lung infection and cough, which allows it to spread from person to person. It can also develop from septicemic plague. Mortality rate is nearly 100% if untreated.

Septicemic plague occurs when the bacteria gets into the bloodstream, usually from the bite of an infected flea, but it can also spread through direct physical contact or through inhaling the bacteria. It is the rarest form of plague. Septicemic plague can develop from pneumonic or bubonic plagues. Mortality rate is nearly 100% if untreated or if treatment is delayed more than 24 hours. Death may occur even before the onset of symptoms.

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Jen0125
10/18/20 1:15:17 AM
#476:


https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/16/trump-campaign-rallies-leave-a-trail-of-community-outbreaks/

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Blightzkrieg
10/18/20 1:43:32 AM
#477:


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ClarkDuke
10/18/20 7:19:35 PM
#478:


Blightzkrieg posted...
Wow it's lucky he's able to leave before it starts
a sane individual, might even think he's responsible for the cases, ok?

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likehelly
10/20/20 6:33:03 AM
#479:




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OrangeDawn
10/23/20 10:51:50 PM
#480:


likehelly posted...
holding up about as well as a sane person would think

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FrndNhbrHdCEman
10/29/20 3:01:25 PM
#481:


likehelly posted...
Jfc. Dunno how they ever thought this would work. But as long as the base buys it.

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papercup
10/29/20 3:28:15 PM
#482:


I mean, that's who this story is designed for. Because their base are batshit crazy.

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Far-Queue
10/29/20 3:30:10 PM
#483:


papercup posted...
I mean, that's who this story is designed for. Because their base are batshit crazy.
Don't forget that they're really, really stupid, too

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Blightzkrieg
10/29/20 3:33:03 PM
#484:


They're too chicken shit to even commit, which is why it's about Hunter and not Joe.

If they thought for a moment the story would hold up to scrutiny, they'd be trashing the actual candidate. But they realize it's awful and are embarrassed by their own plan and so it gets buried because who actually gives a shit.

The Trump campaign has not developed notably since 2016, so they just try the same shit that worked with Hillary on Joe. And it's painful to watch. They don't actually seem to know anything about Joe's actual history and personality, which is why he's an Antifa plant one minute and a senile weakling the next.

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