Poll of the Day > GeekHouse of Horror LXXII

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't even know if we have concrete confirmation that the "Snyder Cut" is his actual original plan, or if it's more the movie he's now putting together with new scenes while also taking criticism of the Theatrical Cut into account.

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Oh, I fully don't believe it's the True Vision of the director, that's not how those are made, it's just that's the name that everyone goes with which is why I say that.

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The Snyder Cut of Justice League is going to be trash. Everything from Man of Steel to Batman Vs Superman to Justice League was varying degrees of trash to absolute ****. The **** was Batman vs Superman as that film makes zero sense.

Man of Steel had some good ideas, like the engineering of Zod, but then the final act pisses on 60 plus years of comic and television history by having Pa Kent step into a tornado to teach teenage Clark a lesson about how terrible and close minded humans are, then snapping Zod's neck like a damn twig.

Those decisions were so dumb and out of character that I almost walked out of the theater. I was like, "what the hell did I just watch?" That's like, Spider-Man punching Doc Ock's head off and going to have a latte with MJ in the next scene, and she ask Peter how was his day, and he replies, "Let's just say this latte isn't the only thing de...caffinated."

Man of Steel was still better than Batman vs Superman because it only didn't make sense for 45 minutes. BVS was nearly 3 hours of stupidity. What the hell was Jesse Eisenberg doing? What was anyone doing, but especially him?

The Snyder cut of Justice League will be longer trash. I know I'm right on this one, and I have no hope for it being otherwise.

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You could also look at it from the angle that nobody is crying for Marvel recuts because most of the movies are passable, and the market is completely flooded with them, whereas DC has tried stepping it's output up, but isn't cranking out the same level of passable movies. The past few have been pretty bad, and there's some small shred of hope that DC can do good work outside of the animations.

The Justice League on some level or another has what, 30-40 years on the Avengers in some form or another in the comics archives? They can't find a cast and a director that actually gets what they're trying to make as a film?

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The Wave Master posted...

What the hell was Jesse Eisenberg doing?

His best

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The Wave Master posted...

Man of Steel had some good ideas, like the engineering of Zod, but then the final act pisses on 60 plus years of comic and television history by having Pa Kent step into a tornado to teach teenage Clark a lesson about how terrible and close minded humans are, then snapping Zod's neck like a damn twig.

In the absence of a phantom zone, what exactly was Clark supposed to do? Just let Zod keep killing? The moment was a pivotally emotional scene that felt far less out of place than (spoilers for another movie we all saw) Batman deciding on a loophole to justify murdering R'as in Batman Begins.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

You could also look at it from the angle that nobody is crying for Marvel recuts because most of the movies are passable, and the market is completely flooded with them, whereas DC has tried stepping it's output up, but isn't cranking out the same level of passable movies. The past few have been pretty bad, and there's some small shred of hope that DC can do good work outside of the animations.

The Justice League on some level or another has what, 30-40 years on the Avengers in some form or another in the comics archives? They can't find a cast and a director that actually gets what they're trying to make as a film?

Yeah, JL is central to their universe.

I_Abibde posted... And I wonder if Whedon will come anywhere near superhero movies again after being slagged for the Justice League debacle.

If Whedon never touched another superhero, I'd be happy. He was responsible for a lot of the stupidest shit in Avengers as well. And with him not fucking up superheroes, maybe he'd have the time to finally give us some Doctor Horrible sequels.

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

The Justice League on some level or another has what, 30-40 years on the Avengers in some form or another in the comics archives?

Only about 23 years (unless you want to be really pedantic, in which case JL only beats Avengers by about 3 years), and it's less useful than you think.

Justice Society was created in 1940. Justice League (which at its heart was just a renamed, revamped reboot of the JSA) was created in 1960, when DC was rebooting their line and kicking off the Silver Age (basically, when we got the new versions of Flash and Green Lantern). Marvel brought Avengers out in 1963. So if you want to be literal, JL only beats Avengers by 3 years. But if you count the JSA as the proto-JL, then that adds another 20 years.

But that period between 1940 and 1960 wasn't really churning out a ton of awesome Justice Society stories or anything. The strong burst of popularity during the Golden Age was mostly confined to the war period, and most comic publishers were convinced that superhero comics were pretty much passe by the 1950s (the main push in the 50s was Western and Romance comics, with Horror comics popular as well until the Comics Code was invented to murder them). The Golden Age JSA never had their own comic, and mostly only appeared in anthology books, and they were mostly over and done by 1950. If you look into it, you probably find there's only about 50 or so JSA stories prior to the Avengers launch.

Plus, a lot of those earlier stories from that era? Were kind of terrible. Sites like Superdickery exist for a reason - very little of the output from those years would work very well with modern sensibilities in mind (and most of the good ideas from that period just got reused later anyway, during one of DC's half-dozen or so continuity reboots).

Ironically, if you're looking for good story ideas from Marvel, you can generally look from 1960 to today to mine for ideas (though I'd argue the best stories are all from the late 70s/80s/mid-00s). But if you're looking for good ideas from DC, you probably aren't going to find much worth looking at prior to Crisis, in the early 80s.

But I don't think lack of ideas has ever been DC's problem.

Speaking of which...



WhiskeyDisk posted...

They can't find a cast and a director that actually gets what they're trying to make as a film?

I'm still absolutely convinced Warner Bros is the problem, and that the reason why so many DC films wind up being shit is because, at heart, they're utterly embarrassed to be making comic movies.

There's a case to be made that Warner Bros will only commit strongly to a film if it can be "artsy" or "more meaningful" than a "comic movie". It's why they love Nolan so much, and why David Goyer is their go-to script writer, in spite of the fact that he's the one who's said in interviews that She-Hulk only exists so Hulk can have someone to fuck (in spite of the fact that they never have and their entire backstory is that they're cousins) and no one likes Martian Manhunter unless they're a virgin. There's a strong undercurrent in the corporate mentality that comic books are shameful, and that the only acceptable way to make a comic movie is to turn it into an artistic piece that has a message or makes a statement, even if that message or statement has absolutely nothing to do with the character you're making your movie about.

For all that they want to mimic Marvel without actually mimicking Marvel, I feel like the one idea they NEED to steal from Marvel is to find a producer who is both good at his job AND a fan of comics, who they can put in charge of the whole division. Someone who can plot overarching storylines (if you MUST have a shared universe), and who can stand up to auteur directors who want to put their own artistic aesthetic over the good of the shared narrative. The animation division was praised for years because the people in it (like Bruce Timm) were clearly huge comic nerds, who cared about the projects they were working on. Warner Bros has never had that.

Snyder's the one they put in charge - but he's also the one who seems to profoundly misunderstand the entire point of Superman. One of the most simplistic comic characters ever to understand. He's also the one who kind of didn't seem to get the ethos of Watchmen. He also made Sucker Punch - the movie where Snyder basically masturbates over his female cast for 2 hours and then tells you in interviews that the point of the movie was that you're bad for sexually objectifying women. Because he's not a good enough filmmaker to craft a film that can speak for itself without coming across as extremely hypocritical. And this is the guy they decided was the best possible person to helm your attempt at a cinematic universe?

Look, sure, I liked 300 as much as the next guy, but it's just about the only thing he's ever done that wasn't a dumpster fire. Why are you putting him in charge of what is potentially the most lucrative property you've ever owned as a corporation? Which Time-Warner exec did he have blackmail evidence over?

For me, it's very telling that the best DC movie ever made was made outside of Warner Bros (the original Superman film wasn't a WB production). And the strength of the successful Batman films was never really on WB's shoulders as much as it was supported by two strong directors (Burton and Nolan) who could push back against studio apathy (and let's be honest, Burton himself fits the "doesn't really give a shit about comics, is mostly making an art piece in his own style" mold of director, because he's openly admitted he doesn't really like comics that much - hence Kevin Smith's jab at him over his proposed Superman film).

I have zero faith DC will ever produce a worthwhile shared universe until they find someone to helm it who actually deserves to be sitting in that chair, and who is supported by the studio as a whole rather than spending their entire time fighting against anti-comic book disdain At best, you might get the occasional gem when a strong director with a vision pushes their own film through the quagmire, but most of the time you're going to get movies that are mediocre to outright terrible.

Basically, this is the same argument I've had for years over why mainstream shared universe comic book stories themselves were so much better in the 70s/80s - a strong editor and editor-in-chief can keep the writers and artists on task and integrate their work effectively. But a lack of editorial presence allows creative teams to go insane and either take a massive shit in the whole sandbox (Grant Morrison) or just churn out substandard word (Chuck Austen). Editorial has been kind of handicapped since the late 80s, and it's hurt shared universes. Which is why, today, most of the best stories are either mostly out of continuity or are by solo writers writing in their own owned universe where they don't have to worry about other chefs shitting in their pot.

Basically, Kevin Feige is Marvel's "Editor-in-Chief". DC/WB desperately needs one. Specifically one that actually likes the product and knows what they're doing.
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Went on a shopping run today and didn't get everywhere I'd meant to because I got waylaid by Wal-Mart (where I had stopped in for cheap t-shirts -- without any luck -- and some other stuff). I happened to glance down their toy aisle and was transported to the 1980s. Mattel apparently has a retro line of He-Man figures out, which resemble the old molds with more articulation.... although unfortunately the head sculpts were unbelievably ugly for Skeletor, Evil-Lyn, etc, and they're trying to charge $15 each. Then they even had a BattleCat (I think for $20 or $30?)... but no Panthor, let alone a flocked Panthor (so I didn't give a flock).

Oh, and probably the most retro part of it was that there were like 20 or 30 figures of He-Man, 20 or 30 of Skeletor, just a few Evil-Lyns, then nothing else. Beast-Man was supposedly also in the wave, but was nowhere to be found. Just like how Mattel handled the original line! XD (Well, I guess later on the problem was them flooding supporting characters, but it's the same weirdly uneven distro.) Apparently Mattel also put out a Scare-Glow, which I'll probably grab if I see it or via Amazon or something.

Then I glance over and I see that Hasbro has done what look like re-releases of Kenner's Real Ghostbusters figures. Had to do a double-take, and it didn't register what it actually was until I really looked the whole thing over. While they were also priced at $15 (seriously, wtf?), I probably would have picked up the Slimer if they had it in stock. (Then they had new figures for the movie versions of the characters, which I had known existed unlike these; they're not bad-looking, but I just don't feel compelled to pick them up.)

Apparently the new Transformers stuff is still ugly. The designs continue to be oddly blocky. Even the DotM stuff looked better (although that's a very different direction). I guess it's kinda convenient that they're making stuff I don't want, saves me a lot of temptation. And I can resist anything except temptation.

Oh, speaking of temptation, Mattel also had some blind-boxed He-Man stuff. Kind of a decent deal, as far as blind-box goes -- it's an articulated figurine (with weapon accessory) in a Snake Mountain case for $5. Nowadays it seems like just the figure would run you $5. I had kinda thought it'd be a cheaper, smaller figurine like one of those Lego-knockoff lines so I was surprised to see that they're the same figures that Mattel had been selling on Matty Collector as a 2-pack with a Grayskull Collect&Connect.

https://www.hemanworld.com/2020/02/coming-this-fall-masters-of-the-universe-eternia-minis/

Apparently there's also a Castle Grayskull case version, which I would have picked up if I saw it. In general, I kinda want to pick up more of these, but I also don't want to go overboard because I have a ton of figurines from other blind-boxed lines.

Oh, and I saw the Jazwares UFC figures in person and it looks a bit better than what Jazwares had been doing in the past.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

He's also the one who kind of didn't seem to get the ethos of Watchmen.

I still see no issue. Unless this is about him not wanting to bulk out the movie by another 40 minutes or so with an unrelated pirate story that adds nothing to the film.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

He also made Sucker Punch - the movie where Snyder basically masturbates over his female cast for 2 hours and then tells you in interviews that the point of the movie was that you're bad for sexually objectifying women. Because he's not a good enough filmmaker to craft a film that can speak for itself without coming across as extremely hypocritical. And this is the guy they decided was the best possible person to helm your attempt at a cinematic universe?

I forgive Sucker Punch for being a pretty scathing expos on MK-Ultra/Butterfly, even if it was entirely by accident, much like Eyes Wide Shut.

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The entire discipline of editing -- in chief, or otherwise -- seems to have gone down the toilet since the '80s, be it for comic book franchises, video game series, or individual books, and I cannot put my finger on the why of it. I always thought it was a thing that could be taught, but ... perhaps not?

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I_Abibde posted...

The entire discipline of editing -- in chief, or otherwise -- seems to have gone down the toilet since the '80s, be it for comic book franchises, video game series, or individual books, and I cannot put my finger on the why of it. I always thought it was a thing that could be taught, but ... perhaps not?

I'm sure at least part of that can blamed on industry disruption and the lack of traditional gatekeeping. And, of course, to some extent the fact that disinterested editors have been replaced by hobby enthusiasts who don't necessarily adhere to the same standards.

Granted, in the case of comics, there's the secondary issue that the big houses have become trapped by their biggest titles so they can't really put their force behind something new. Basically they're relying on building upon stuff created by others instead of having a hand to fully create themselves, so somebody who might have been talented at creating something else is instead allowed to work on what amounts to canonical fanfiction for their favorite titles. But then there's also the issue that comic editors don't have balls any more -- kowtowing to social pressures from people who will never read their comics and trying to adjust superheroes to match what works in the movies to try to draw in a crowd that likely isn't terribly interested in reading that stuff while potentially alienating the fans who would. All of these cases (except for the kowtowing) are to some extent examples of them being victims of their own success, particularly since it makes sense to do things that way.


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I_Abibde posted...

The entire discipline of editing -- in chief, or otherwise -- seems to have gone down the toilet since the '80s, be it for comic book franchises, video game series, or individual books, and I cannot put my finger on the why of it. I always thought it was a thing that could be taught, but ... perhaps not?

Zeus posted...

I'm sure at least part of that can blamed on industry disruption and the lack of traditional gatekeeping. And, of course, to some extent the fact that disinterested editors have been replaced by hobby enthusiasts who don't necessarily adhere to the same standards.

I'd agree with this - there's been an argument for years that the "inmates running the asylum" is a large part of what's been killing the "mainstream" comic industry for years (ie, basically Marvel and DC).

In the old days, you'd have professional writers who'd spent most of their lives reading actual literature and who had aspirations to become respected authors someday slumming as comic writers to make money. This meant a lot of the best writers were people exposed to a lot of well-written stories and with a strong grasp on storytelling. But these days most writers and artists who wind up in the comic industry are fanboys who grew up reading comics, who wanted to grow up and work in comics - so you sort of get this incestuous ouroboros where you're not really getting new ideas, just recycled old ones, being pumped out by people who don't really have a strong point of reference outside of comics.

Basically, we're getting the equivalent of Internet fanfiction that's been canonized as "official" by publishers that no longer care, because they're mostly focused on the massive infusions of cash coming in from the film and merch departments. It doesn't really matter if your comics suck if no one is reading them anyway.

Though I'd also be tempted to say that creator rights and IP control are another huge part of this, once they started becoming a major issue in the 80s/90s. Because it encouraged the growth of a auteur creator who works on their own title, which they retain the rights to. Which spurs them to keep their IP separate from any shared universe, and prevents them from using existing characters. Which leads the actual talented people who get into comics to focus on their own titles, their own ideas, and their own IP.

...which leaves the people who aren't good enough to do their own personal projects to work on the shared universes. So you get substandard work from substandard creators, because the real geniuses or workhorses will make more money doing their own thing.

I feel like this is also part of why editorial has been so handicapped. Starting with the Image exodus from Marvel, lots of name artists and writers have been able to walk away from the Big Two, and many of them would cite editorial interference as one of the reasons they wanted to leave (and then we saw the hot garbage they produced without editorial oversight, and we realized why they NEEDED it in the first place). But upper execs probably took that to heart, and told editors to not rock the boat if it meant potentially chasing away name creators, who could sell issues on the strength of their name alone, and who now had alternative places to go if they were throwing childish tantrums over having their creative genius stiffed (and make sure to read that last part with as much disdain and sarcasm in your voice as you can for full effect).

"If Grant Morrison wants to tell disjointed stories that don't mesh with anything else and ruin things for future writers for years to come, just let him. He's a name, he's got critical cred, and he sells books. Who gives a shit if any of this makes sense? It's just comic books."

So the years where Jim Shooter ruled over creators with an iron first and they produced some of the best stories ever, but where a number of prima donnas screamed about how much they hated him and left for DC or just kept bad-mouthing him years after he was gone, are now gone. Because no editor since has ever cared anywhere near as much, or been willing to take the flack. Just let the children play, and if they shit on the floor we can always figure out how to clean it up later.

Creator rights may also hurt things in a different way as well - if I'm a comic writer, and I come up with a brilliant idea for a character, am I going to use that character in whatever Marvel or DC comic I'm writing (at which point, that character is their property, forever, and I'm unable to ever use it anywhere else)? Or am I going to keep my really great ideas to myself, on the off-chance that I might get around to working on my own book someday, that I own myself, and can license out for merch? And then I'm just giving Marvel or DC my lame ideas, the ones that aren't good enough for me, or I'm just sticking exclusively to reusing old characters and constantly recycling old stories because I don't own any of that anyway.
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but PO. they can just keep hiring interns and just reboot the continuity every decade or so when none of their fanfic pans out.

when they get around to cranking out a movie, we need slowmo scenes of martha wayne's pearls falling to the floor in Crime Alley everytime. we need to see uncle ben gutshot everytime. we need to see logan surging out of a bathtub like morningwood everytime. we need to see the Kents finding a swaddled Kal-El in a pod in their fields everytime.

screw the fans, the fans are writing the shit for normies now because normies spend money.

Lucifer made it out of Dev hell as something that has so much executive meddling, that it only resmbles the souce material in name only. we keep hearing Sandman is getting traction, only to fade into obscurity for another 5 years ever time.

Legion was one hell of an anomaly, so was American Gods. so was Preacher. look at how all of those ended up. Ash vs Walking dead? Hell, TWD...

once you put it out there for any sort of design by boardroom scenario, all you get is trash on the other side. can't have the normies thinking about their media. we have to deliver a simple, hamfisted message for the unwashed masses. we can't have any whimsy or comedy in "[current year]", that might offend someone that had a dollar in their pocket that someone else might get.

anything that strays too far off the formula is just going to get cancelled or rebooted into commercial pulp, this is the media landscape we're in now.

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LuciferSage posted...

but PO. they can just keep hiring interns and just reboot the continuity every decade or so when none of their fanfic pans out.

That's more DC's MO. Marvel's MO for years has been that there's no reboots allowed, just subtle minor retcons and a sliding time scale, so literally every story ever written HAS happened, and is part of continuity.

The recent Secret Wars bullshit kind of changed that, though, since it theoretically destroyed the universe and recreated it from scratch, so technically alterations to past history could be justified, but Marvel mostly seems to be just acting on the assumption that it doesn't matter because the universe was recreated almost entirely exactly the same as it was before (meaning it wasn't a reboot at all).
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Let's do this for the 4th time. We are under another damn hurricane warning. My dialysis unit called to tell me to show up at 4am to run, and scarlet and I are going shopping after my wound care appointment tomorrow. Apparently the damn thing will be here Wednesday night early Thursday morning.

I'm not going to complain about global warming because that's just silly. (Rolls eyes) but we have dodged the other 3, but not this time. It won't be a direct hit, but it's so close we will still get the full force of this thing over the next 72 hours.

I wish I could I could convince the wife to move, but family and all that.

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I_Abibde posted...

Speaking as a fan of the series: If you have played any of the Fire Emblem games, including the remake of the original on DS, the first Fire Emblem is almost unplayable by modern standards. Good to see it as a novelty release, but I would have been happy with it staying in Japan.

Basically my thoughts. I was intrigued at first, but it just being a port of the OG game that never came to America is a huge meh from me.

Hell, the current FE games have evolved to the point so as to make the first American FE (FE7) seem pedestrian by comparison.


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The Wave Master posted...

Let's do this for the 4th time. We are under another damn hurricane warning.

On the plus side, hurricane season has to end eventually.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

On the plus side, hurricane season has to end eventually.

December 1st. December 1sr.

It's already really dark outside, and there's some stranger knocking on my door asking for passage...

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The Wave Master posted...

December 1st. December 1sr.

It's already really dark outside, and there's some stranger knocking on my door asking for passage...

https://i.imgur.com/vvnHoZr.jpg

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Zeus posted...

https://i.imgur.com/vvnHoZr.jpg

Wave might be better off if a vampire decided to turn him.

If it happens, Wave, just remember "A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become." That's important.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

"A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become." That's important.

Literally a much nicer way of framing my sig...but a parallel line of thought for sure...

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LuciferSage posted...

Literally a much nicer way of framing my sig...but a parallel line of thought for sure...

Not really. Trent's basically just saying "people suck".

"A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become" is "The Riddle" from Vampire: the Masquerade, which more or less boils down to "You're a monster now, because you have to prey on humans and drink blood. But if you don't do that, because you're trying to be a good person, you'll eventually starve yourself, lose control, and go into a berserk frenzy where you almost certain kill multiple people in incredibly savage ways. So you either have to accept the paradox that being a good person requires you to be a bad person, or you have to kill yourself."

The Riddle is just saying "Stop whining, nut up, and be a vampire."
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Not really. Trent's basically just saying "people suck".

"A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become" is "The Riddle" from Vampire: the Masquerade, which more or less boils down to "You're a monster now, because you have to prey on humans and drink blood. But if you don't do that, because you're trying to be a good person, you'll eventually starve yourself, lose control, and go into a berserk frenzy where you almost certain kill multiple people in incredibly savage ways. So you either have to accept the paradox that being a good person requires you to be a bad person, or you have to kill yourself."

The Riddle is just saying "Stop whining, nut up, and be a vampire."

"Gaze not into the abyss" is what all variants boil down to. It's not as unique an idea as you seem to think.

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

"Gaze not into the abyss" is what all variants boil down to. It's not as unique an idea as you seem to think.

Again, that's not really the same concept at all.

Nietzsche is basically saying "don't become what you oppose". Which is a distinctly different premise than either of the other two.

It's like saying the "Golden Rule" is the same premise because it just boils down to "don't be an asshole". It's oversimplification to the point of meaninglessness - in each case, they're effectively warning against entirely different things or proposing entirely different methodology.
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Beast I am, beast I become.

Pigs we get what pigs deserve.

Gaze not into the abyss lest ye become a monster.

I'm not seeing the difference here.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Again, that's not really the same concept at all.

Nietzsche is basically saying "don't become what you oppose". Which is a distinctly different premise than either of the other two.

It's like saying the "Golden Rule" is the same premise because it just boils down to "don't be an asshole". It's oversimplification to the point of meaninglessness - in each case, they're effectively warning against entirely different things or proposing entirely different methodology.

What about "You reap what you sow"?!


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

"A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become" is "The Riddle" from Vampire: the Masquerade, which more or less boils down to "You're a monster now, because you have to prey on humans and drink blood. But if you don't do that, because you're trying to be a good person, you'll eventually starve yourself, lose control, and go into a berserk frenzy where you almost certain kill multiple people in incredibly savage ways. So you either have to accept the paradox that being a good person requires you to be a bad person, or you have to kill yourself."

The Riddle is just saying "Stop whining, nut up, and be a vampire."

...Did you just quote VtM unironically?

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Beast I am, beast I become.

Pigs we get what pigs deserve.

Gaze not into the abyss lest ye become a monster.

I'm not seeing the difference here.

Then you're being kind of obtuse.

The first is saying "You have to do shitty things to survive, or you'll wind up be even shittier when you inevitably lose control", and is a specific case that only really applies to vampires in a specific setting (where starving yourself turns you into a mindless hunger monster). You have to do evil, because the alternative is to risk unleashing even greater evil.

The second is saying "People suck, and therefore when shitty things happen to people they deserve it", which implies that Trent Reznor got picked on as a kid.

The third is saying "Be careful when you're fighting against shitty people, because you can turn into a shitty person in the process", which implies you start using "the ends justify the means" or "fight fire with fire" sort of rationales when you're opposing something, and in the process, start to become just as terrible as the thing you're opposed to. To understand evil is to risk identifying with evil, and in turn, becoming evil.

YES, all three involve someone being shitty, but the context in all three cases is different. Situations where one of those applies as advice doesn't really validate the other two. Each has an intended usage that is different from the others. The first and third are almost explicitly contradictory (one can't apply where the other is correct), and the second one is arguing a state where neither of the other two matter because there's no real alternative to being terrible.

Sure, any of the three are things you might expect an emo teen to come out with as if it makes them sound profound, but they still mean different things.



Zeus posted...

What about "You reap what you sow"?!

That's yet another variation. It's basically "Shitty things happen to shitty people."

It sort of fits somewhere close to the pigs one (which is arguing that everyone is shitty so everyone always deserves the shittiness), but that one is more sort of suggesting that the shitty things happen regardless while this one is sort of implying some mechanism is at work (whether destiny, a judgemental god, or just mechanistic determinism) to ensure that shitty things specifically happen to people who deserve them.

Those two you could actually fudge a bit to be more or less the same, but you could also easily interpret them in different ways.



shadowsword87 posted...

...Did you just quote VtM unironically?

No, I referenced VtM as part of a joke about vampires and then had to explain it unironically.

Though liking VtM is nothing to be ashamed of anyway. Not like, say, liking something like Eclipse Phase. ~shudder~
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

It sort of fits somewhere close to the pigs one (which is arguing that everyone is shitty so everyone always deserves the shittiness), but that one is more sort of suggesting that the shitty things happen regardless while this one is sort of implying some mechanism is at work (whether destiny, a judgemental god, or just mechanistic determinism) to ensure that shitty things specifically happen to people who deserve them.

Those two you could actually fudge a bit to be more or less the same, but you could also easily interpret them in different ways.

Nah. "Reap what you sow" explicitly says you will be affected by your own consequences. Basic cause and effects unto one's self (and since it's almost always used in the negative sense, it can be boiled down to "you did this to yourself" or "you only have yourself to blame.").

Destiny/judgemental god would be more of a "shit happens" line, since it implies something bad is happening to a person, regardless if they actually did anything to earn the bad thing happening or not.

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CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Nah. "Reap what you sow" explicitly says you will be affected by your own consequences.

Yes, but the mechanism by which said payback happens isn't necessarily addressed, which is why I said it that way.

Some people might argue that the universe itself somehow causes good things to happen to good people and bad things to happen to bad people as if it was some sort of natural principle. Almost like magnetism or "like calls to like". Others might call it karma (even though that's not really what the word means). Either way, an aloof force or principle that is deliberately judging and retaliating.

If you believe a god exists and that god cares about human behavior, then that god might be the cause, magically making terrible and possibly ironic things happen to people who've been bad. It's still YOUR fault (because you did the thing), but the punishment is being meted out by a conscious force that is deliberately reacting to your actions.

There's also the more materialistic argument, which is that negative consequences are mostly just a side-effect, and has no real conscious, natural, or supernatural source, and that you're basically just setting up situations in which you're more likely to suffer. ie, be an asshole to people, and people will start treating you like an asshole, so you won't have help when you need it. If you go around solving all your problems with violence, other people will eventually start viewing you as a violent thug and react to you accordingly, etc. You've sowed the storm, now reap the whirlwind.

The saying itself tends to lean more into the direct, materialistic assumption, but plenty of people use the phrase to imply "divine intervention" as well (ie, you go around making fun of people with cancer, you get cancer, you've been deliberately punished for your behavior in a way that isn't a direct and natural outcome of your behavior).

Of course, a real cynic would point out that none of this matters, because it isn't true anyway. Terrible things happen to good people all the time, and bad people constantly benefit from being bad, and we really only read morality into events as a psychological defense mechanism. We basically tell OURSELVES that there's some sort of primal system of judgement in place, or that events will naturally smooth out the pattern no matter what, because otherwise, we have to admit just how terribly unfair life is.



CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Destiny/judgemental god would be more of a "shit happens" line, since it implies something bad is happening to a person, regardless if they actually did anything to earn the bad thing happening or not.

Not really. "Shit happens" implies total lack of judgement or distinction (shit happens to everyone, no matter what you do). A judgemental god is specifically punishing you for things you did and rewarding you for good things you do (otherwise, it's a capricious or uncaring god, not a judgemental one).

As for destiny, it depends on how you DEFINE destiny. In a strictly deterministic model there's no such thing as good or evil anyway, and no one actually MAKES choices, as we're all pre-programmed to follow a specific path and have no power to ever deviate from it, even if we think we do. In fact, our attempts to deviate are themselves part of the original plan, and merely fulfill the plan precisely as it was established. But I was mostly talking about the looser definition of destiny, in the sense that evil people are generally destined to come to a bad end eventually, while good people will tend to have good outcomes (and again, it kind of depends on what force or principle is BEHIND destiny).

But basically, my point was that there's a difference between a scenario wherein shitty things are mostly happening to people who were themselves shitty, as opposed to shittiness just happening to everyone relatively equally and randomly.

Also, I've now written shittiness and shit happens so many times that I can't stop thinking of this:

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2007/10/18/religions-of-the-world-according-to-shit

(I used to have that on a t-shirt back in the 90s when I was in college)
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I'm still alive, and my family and friends are safe after Hurricane Zeta last night. The chimney on my house fell down from the winds, and lots of siding and my roof are all severely damaged. It'll probably be early next week before we get power restored to our home, but again we're all alive.

I have already contacted the mortgage company and insurance company so they can send an adjuster out, and get the ball rolling on repairs.

It was honestly very scary for a few hours last night, but right now it's a pretty day, like nothing ever happened.

Overall, it wasn't as bad as Hurricane Katrina, but it wasn't a brush off either.

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This hasn't been a great decade for Halloween in my area. I think 3-4 Halloweens now have had some major fucking issue, including Super Storm Sandy killing shit in 2012 and now COVID effectively canceling things this year.

I had semi-forced myself into a horror binge (since others were making a big thing of it) but, honestly, there's not much out for it this year. NF's pickings (other than the Haunting of Bly Manor) have been pretty anemic (partly because it's stuff they've had for a while) and the Bite-Sized Halloween series on Hulu hasn't really done much for me.

I did finally watch the Santa Clarita Diet (where, humorously enough, I thought the lead was a Drew Barrymore type... but it turned out to just be Drew Barrymore. She hasn't taken great care of herself), which was fun at least. And I keep meaning to play some horror-themed games, but nothing feels the same. Oh, and now I hear it's going to snow on Halloween. Like what the hell is that?

And once again the Treehouse of Horror is going to air AFTER Halloween... although none of the segments look horror-centric.

The Wave Master posted...

I'm still alive,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TERyxFfMqDk

The Wave Master posted...

he chimney on my house fell down from the winds, and lots of siding and my roof are all severely damaged. It'll probably be early next week before we get power restored to our home,

Oof, that sucks.

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Eh it always airs on Sunday. They wouldn't change the schedule just to air it before Halloween.
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I more meant that they could have aired LAST Sunday rather than this coming Sunday. Sometimes it's been two weeks before Halloween.

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In some sort of miracle our power came back on an hour ago. My house is messed up, but I have power and wifi, and I plan on making a giant ass hamburger as a celebration for making it through another s***** ass hurricane .

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I have mandatory overtime on Halloween night, from 4-2:30. So I won't even know if there were going to be trick or treaters this year

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Metalsonic66 posted...

I have mandatory overtime on Halloween night, from 4-2:30. So I won't even know if there were going to be trick or treaters this year

Boo! Where's your boss's holiday spirit? We need to send three ghosts to visit him and show him the error of his ways. Or, you know, just really scare him.

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Zeus posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TERyxFfMqDk

I expected this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI
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Speaking of, I hate that Portal's Still Alive comes up when I look for Mirror Edge's Still Alive.

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Huge success. Is nice.

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Metalsonic66 posted...

I have mandatory overtime on Halloween night, from 4-2:30. So I won't even know if there were going to be trick or treaters this year

Those hours would suck.
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I'm used to working 2nd shift. I don't particularly like getting up early. But working an extra 20 hours is gonna wear me out

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RIP Sean Connery

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90 years. I like to think he didn't die, he just decided to pack it in and go back to the weird future from Highlander 2.

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RIP.

its hard to get that upset when a man like this dies.

don't get it twisted, he lived a rich, full life and left behind one hell of a legacy.

but he'd retired from acting what, 10? 20 years ago? he was 90. if anything, he beat the odds by nearly a decade.

he leaves behind an impressive body of work, and saw more in his life than any of us are likely to see by orders of magnitude. how upset can you really be?

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And "the Amazing" James Randi also departed this world within the past week. Although he made his name as a magician, I mostly know him for his skepticism.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

he leaves behind an impressive body of work, and saw more in his life than any of us are likely to see by orders of magnitude. how upset can you really be?

All I know is I want to be knighted someday... no, lorded! Or maybe even coronated!

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Got in a two hour long line this afternoon to get free supplies from MEMA and FEMA. We were able to get extra water, MRE's, and Tarps to cover the giant hole in the south side of my house. Thank goodness it was a cool day as te a.c. died in my wife's car, so when it rains it pours.

Overall, it could be worse because I need a need fireplace mantle, chimney, and roof from the storm. The insurance adjustor will be here Tuesday morning to get us the estimates, and then we have my wound care appointment, and then we have to vote. Then on Thursday we have to put the tarp up over the house until we can get it all fixed. It's going to be a long week and no video games because I'm too busy.

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New Treehouse of Horror was terrible, easily among the worst. Shitty, highly partisan election joke opening, Toy Story parody (which also didn't make sense since Malibu Stacey was one of his toys... ending wasn't terrible, though), Spider-Verse parody, and a Russian Doll parody. Reminds me I still need to see Russian Doll.

None of the segments were all that great, but I think each managed to get one laugh from me (except maybe "Homer-Verse"). The Toy Story parody was just weird timing (since the movie has been out forever) and the Spider-Verse was a crappy selection. I guess the Russian Doll parody was less terrible than the rest, but it's just splitting hairs at that point.

I can also see why they released it late -- they wanted to time their attack ad on Trump to release closer to the election.

Otherwise I decided to give NaNoWriMo a go. While I have a few things I've started but didn't follow through on, I decided I'd instead actually follow the rules and start writing from scratch... which, from a technical standpoint, I've kinda done since I restarted writing something.

I'm not going to go into what I'm writing, nor will I likely ever share it here. The real thing I want to discuss is just how weirdly hard it's been. I had watched some Brandon Sanderson things on writing the other month (which is why I was bringing him up at the time -- and he was on my radar simply because Shadiversity and some other YTers played him up) and one of his remarks was just how much people should aim to write in a day, which also came up here in discussion.

At the time, I thought the whole thing felt kinda lowballed because when I'd started writing a fantasy novel some time ago I had written maybe 1,200 words during one hour of it (and I was at about 20k words when I dropped off -- not counting everything I'd written for it before that I could have worked in... although I also realize my fantasy novel would probably wind up being as long as other fantasy novels despite not intending to do anything that huge. However, right now... I've got like nothing.

The daily writing goal for the 50k+ words needs to be around 1,700 words per day. I remembered the whole thing late on Sunday and that first day was 600 words, so I'm way behind right now. Given the nature of the challenge, I wanted to avoid things that I'd either already put a good chunk of time into or would wind up being really long (although the goal is finishing 50k words, I wanted to stick to the whole work being done as well). And, because coming up with a concept on the fly is a pain, I figured I'd go with something I'd be thinking about for years -- and had written snippets here and there about (which I won't use at this point). The only problem is that it's been so long that I can't remember how I intended to connect certain events and I'm not sure what I did with my notes, assuming that I plotted things out all that much.

At that this point I'm kinda thinking about the compounding effects of not hitting the quota day after day. All the same, I kinda want to do it just to force myself to finish *something* since I haven't completed writing a work of fiction in over 10 years. (And I had stacks and stacks of 50-80% written short stories... which I guess I could Stephen King the fuck out of the endings just to finish them, submit them wherever, and see what happens.)

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The insurance adjustor came and said that the damage to the house was worse than we all thought. (Yes) The roof needs replacing, the chimney, the siding, the inside fireplace and mantle, and the garage door. Overall, quite a bit of damage, and they're going to cut me a nice check. I'm going to call the contractors tomorrow to start to get estimates on fixing everything. Oh, I forgot about my fence too.

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Oof. Surprised that he'd volunteer some of that information. Usually it seems like if you don't complain about it, they're kinda mum.

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