Poll of the Day > are some feelings really just less valid than others?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I was thinking about the concept of slut-shaming recently. obviously there is a backlash from girls who have been called sluts. and the narrative is that other people are wrong, and not them. for example, maybe a guy learned about his gf's sexual history and said "ok basically I don't respect you anymore because I you're a slut and I can't be with you". you can imagine some "modern" reactions, like "Oh my god, how horrible, are you slut shaming me, you don't get to judge me for that", etc etc..

if I put myself in that hypothetical scenario, I am pretty sure I would react the same way. And I am trying to come to terms with the fact that I hear all the time how bad slut-shaming is, vs. how I actually feel. Is it not hurtful to invalidate someone's true feelings?

I have trouble putting this into words, but it seems there is a mass movement of basically telling people how to feel right now that doesn't make sense to me. You can't tell people how to feel. Is that too obvious?

Youd better start feeling hungry soon, or else

youll just get hungry later

---

acesxhigh posted...

seems there is a mass movement of basically telling people how to feel

Yes, there is one going on.

Its necessary to make your public appearance part of this movement or social interactions with a vast amount of people your age will be limited. It comes up in conversation because its a quick status indicator when people are too young to afford real status symbols.

Its a vicious positive feedback cycle. The more people are told how they need to behave the more some rebel the more its needed to tell them how to behave the more its needed to rebel and then Donald Trump is president and then we have people supporting violent anarchy in the name of peace and then people wanting to crack down harder on the rioters.

maybe the result of this hyper-individualism thing we have in NA. like, the tendency to respect individual freedom over the good of the collective, or society. what happens unsurprisingly is that the individual has the freedom to destroy society and they feel right to do so.

like, normal people feeling unsafe walking in local park because it's full of crackhead tents. the vast majority of neighborhood residents AREN'T from this camp, we all hate what the park has become, and yet somehow we are supposed to "feel compassionate" for them despite the fact that they are the 1% ruining it for everybody else.

acesxhigh posted...

if I put myself in that hypothetical scenario, I am pretty sure I would react the same way. And I am trying to come to terms with the fact that I hear all the time how bad slut-shaming is, vs. how I actually feel. Is it not hurtful to invalidate someone's true feelings?

If your true feelings are fucking stupid, then yes. Give me a reasonable explanation for why consensual sexual activity is a reason to not respect someone or see them as unworthy, because it you can't, then yes, your precious feelings are not valid.

---

acesxhigh posted...

respect individual freedom over the good of the collective, or society

Individual freedoms should be respected until theyre limiting the freedom of others

---

acesxhigh posted...

like, normal people feeling unsafe walking in local park because it's full of crackhead tents. the vast majority of neighborhood residents AREN'T from this camp, we all hate what the park has become, and yet somehow we are supposed to "feel compassionate" for them despite the fact that they are the 1% ruining it for everybody else.

Cool. What's your solution, then? There or hundreds of thousands of homeless people and many more drug addicts in this country, and your feelings about them are completely irrelevant unless of course your proposed solutions are based off those feelings. So, what? You wanna round them up for the prison industry or just shoot them, which is it?

---

In any case where two people have mutually exclusive feelings, there's always going to be a need to judge whose are more valid. That's just the nature of conflict. Sometimes, yours will be more valid, sometimes less, and sometimes, you'll be able to find some sort of compromise. It's never appropriate in such situations, however, to fall back to "that's just how I feel!" in lieu of an actual defense of your position. If that's the best you can do, then yes, your feelings are less valid.

acesxhigh posted...

for example, maybe a guy learned about his gf's sexual history and said "ok basically I don't respect you anymore because I you're a slut and I can't be with you". you can imagine some "modern" reactions, like "Oh my god, how horrible, are you slut shaming me, you don't get to judge me for that", etc etc..

A lot of guys are shitty, though. Theyll have sex with like 20 girls, then say a girl is a slut for having sex with 5 different guys. So, he calls her horrible even though hes had 4x the partners. But then say its fine since hes a guy. So, Id definitely say that his feelings are less valid... Same thing can happen with females, too...

But as for telling people how to feel, you cant. But how much you care about someones feelings will change depending on you, the other person, the feeling, and the relationship between you. When someone dies, some people are sad. Others may feel relieved. Both feelings are probably fine. The ones who are sad may have been close. Where the relieved ones are people that were having their loves ruined or something...
---

Found I'd started in one of my tabs this but hadn't posted it =x

acesxhigh posted...

I was thinking about the concept of slut-shaming recently. obviously there is a backlash from girls who have been called sluts. and the narrative is that other people are wrong, and not them. for example, maybe a guy learned about his gf's sexual history and said "ok basically I don't respect you anymore because I you're a slut and I can't be with you". you can imagine some "modern" reactions, like "Oh my god, how horrible, are you slut shaming me, you don't get to judge me for that", etc etc..

What, you mean a woman is wrong? That never happens! >_>

The silliest thing is that "justice" movement for this one porn star who got famous from doing porn, but has denounced her former whorish behavior and wants all traces of eliminated, where anybody who refuses to go along with this revisionist history is purportedly oppressing her.

And there are some broader social trends as well, but I won't go into them.

acesxhigh posted...

I have trouble putting this into words, but it seems there is a mass movement of basically telling people how to feel right now that doesn't make sense to me. You can't tell people how to feel. Is that too obvious?

It's the final frontier of fascism, after successfully telling people how to think.


---

Gaawa_chan posted...

Cool. What's your solution, then? There or hundreds of thousands of homeless people and many more drug addicts in this country, and your feelings about them are completely irrelevant unless of course your proposed solutions are based off those feelings. So, what? You wanna round them up for the prison industry or just shoot them, which is it?

You need to lay off the booze when you're posting. (Or whatever it is you're having when you post stuff like this.)

_AdjI_ posted...

It's never appropriate in such situations, however, to fall back to "that's just how I feel!" in lieu of an actual defense of your position. If that's the best you can do, then yes, your feelings are less valid.

Preach it.

LinkPizza posted...

A lot of guys are shitty, though. Theyll have sex with like 20 girls, then say a girl is a slut for having sex with 5 different guys. So, he calls her horrible even though hes had 4x the partners. But then say its fine since hes a guy. So, Id definitely say that his feelings are less valid... Same thing can happen with females, too...

How many different sexual partners one person has had has no bearing on how many partners the other has had or why it might bother them. And there are certainly other factors involved as well. If a guy had sex with 20 girls over the course of 15 years, for instance, is very different from a girl having sex with 5 guys in the same year or concurrently having sex with guys.

And honestly, it's not women who have been involved in several long relationships who were only with that one partner during that relationship being called a slut.

---

acesxhigh posted...

I have trouble putting this into words, but it seems there is a mass movement of basically telling people how to feel right now that doesn't make sense to me. You can't tell people how to feel. Is that too obvious?

I agree. That's why i don't care about such things. I'll say whatever I please.


---

Zeus posted...

If a guy had sex with 20 girls over the course of 15 years, for instance, is very different from a girl having sex with 5 guys in the same year or concurrently having sex with guys.

Why would it be? We'll discount currently sleeping with other guys because that's not what's being discussed here, but provided appropriate steps are taken to ensure the safety of all involved parties (namely STD testing), why should sexual history have any bearing on a present relationship?

For that matter, you know full well this isn't a matter of comparing a guy having 20 partners over 15 years to a girl having 5 in 1 year. I've personally seen you break out the "A key that fits many locks..." analogy in this context, so I really hope you don't plan on pretending you think there isn't a sexist double standard when it comes to promiscuity.

Zeus posted...

How many different sexual partners one person has had has no bearing on how many partners the other has had or why it might bother them.

It should, if they have some modicum of self-awareness. Being a hypocrite doesn't automatically make somebody wrong, but when the only factor involved in forming the position is "I feel this is the wrong thing to do," it does.

Zeus posted...

You need to lay off the booze when you're posting. (Or whatever it is you're having when you post stuff like this.)

If you see people on the street and immediately assume that they are to blame for everything that's gone wrong in their lives and that if only the hundreds of thousands of individuals with little to no power would just fix their problems on their own so that you wouldn't be inconvenienced by their existence, then yeah, your feelings are not valid.

---

When what a person is feeling is based on incorrect assumptions and falsehoods.

---

Usually there's some assholes on both sides of thia stuff

Someone will be an asshole to a slut (to use your example, but works with any group really) so people will over correct and be like you can't even use that as a reason to not want to be with them

The best route is to just not be assholes to people so you don't get the over correcters wanting you not to just not be an asshole but force you to accept everyone or be a pariah

Most people, I think, are capable of not being assholes but it's culturally accepted

---

acesxhigh posted...

I have trouble putting this into words, but it seems there is a mass movement of basically telling people how to feel right now that doesn't make sense to me. You can't tell people how to feel. Is that too obvious?

The problem is essentially, rather than try to make sound arguments, these days, people can't be bothered, and just attack your character for disagreeing with them instead.

Mob mentality is promoted when it should be discouraged.
---

The feelings aren't the biggest problem, even feelings like that should be examined and worked through. Just because someone says their feelings are valid doesn't make them correct or feelings they should keep. Just that their feelings are real, no less so than anyone else's.

I feel like shit right now my about 13 year old cat passed away recently. My depression is valid, it's real, but it's not something I should strive to hold onto not would it justify me acting like an asshole.

It's honestly a shame imo that establishing someone having valid feelings has turned into the way they're acting because of them is right. Someone's actions can be a lot more valid. The reasons or actions might be bunk as hell, the core feeling is their feelings. People often don't even want to be feeling what it is they're feeling.

Many people have really really shitty feelings from time to time, and don't say or do something stupid because of them. They work through them, they examine them. They come to a different conclusion once they can work through them.

_AdjI_ posted...

Why would it be? We'll discount currently sleeping with other guys because that's not what's being discussed here, but provided appropriate steps are taken to ensure the safety of all involved parties (namely STD testing), why should sexual history have any bearing on a present relationship?

For that matter, you know full well this isn't a matter of comparing a guy having 20 partners over 15 years to a girl having 5 in 1 year. I've personally seen you break out the "A key that fits many locks..." analogy in this context, so I really hope you don't plan on pretending you think there isn't a sexist double standard when it comes to promiscuity.

It should, if they have some modicum of self-awareness. Being a hypocrite doesn't automatically make somebody wrong, but when the only factor involved in forming the position is "I feel this is the wrong thing to do," it does.

Zeus weighs in on a subject he doesnt have experience in and ends up getting schooled. Shocking. /s

---

ChaosAzeroth posted...

Many people have really really s***ty feelings from time to time, and don't say or do something stupid because of them. They work through them, they examine them. They come to a different conclusion once they can work through them.

This is probably the most important thing to take away from this. When people treat certain feelings as being invalid or otherwise unworthy of respect, it's because those feelings are harmful, unproductive, and/or poorly substantiated (or at least they believe them to be). That doesn't mean you're not allowed to have them, but it does mean you need to work through them and understand why you feel that way and what that means for how you move forward, rather than simply acting according to how you feel. This is a process that can and should involve discussing your feelings with those around you, especially those that stand to be directly affected by them (discussion which may well end up convincing the people that called your feelings invalid in the first place that they have more validity than they realized).

Basically, when people treat your feelings as being less valid, try to understand why. Sometimes, it's because they really are less valid and you need to stop expecting the people around you to accommodate them. Sometimes, it's because those people don't actually understand how you feel, and you can fix the problem with open communication. Sometimes, it's just because that person is a douche and you're better off without them. It's something you've got to figure out on a case-by-case basis.

Zeus posted...

How many different sexual partners one person has had has no bearing on how many partners the other has had or why it might bother them. And there are certainly other factors involved as well. If a guy had sex with 20 girls over the course of 15 years, for instance, is very different from a girl having sex with 5 guys in the same year or concurrently having sex with guys.

And honestly, it's not women who have been involved in several long relationships who were only with that one partner during that relationship being called a slut.

The reason it has bearing is because they end up being hypocrites. Im obviously talking about the same time frame. But, tbh, the normal hypocritical guys have usually had more partners in the shorter amount of time. That being said, its usually (but not always) the guy who calls the women a slut for having some sexual partners, when those same guys could have had way more. But its worse for the females for the sole purpose of them being females...

And dont get me wrong, there are many male and female sluts. Its just dumb to call one a slut because theyve had a lot of sexual partners, when they other person has had the same, or more, in the same amount of time, or less. You can still decline to sleep with them, but that doesnt mean you need to be a hypocrite with a shitty attitude... Just decline to sleep with them...
---

LinkPizza posted...

Just decline to sleep with them...

In his defense he cant afford to be picky.

---

What if someone just FEELS like certain people should be enslaved? Is that feeling less valid?

---

Gaawa_chan posted...

If your true feelings are fucking stupid, then yes. Give me a reasonable explanation for why consensual sexual activity is a reason to not respect someone or see them as unworthy, because it you can't, then yes, your precious feelings are not valid.

A merchant can sell their goods for what it cost them to acquire it, but I'd have no respect for them. Either you have no sense of worth, or you aren't worth much; either option dealing with you isn't a respectable affair.

_AdjI_ posted...

For that matter, you know full well this isn't a matter of comparing a guy having 20 partners over 15 years to a girl having 5 in 1 year. I've personally seen you break out the "A key that fits many locks..." analogy in this context, so I really hope you don't plan on pretending you think there isn't a sexist double standard when it comes to promiscuity.

If you can buy expensive goods then you're either high value or a good barterer.

If you buy cheap tat anywhere then you'll get as much shit as any woman.

_AdjI_ posted...

why should sexual history have any bearing on a present relationship?

Because if the bar for entry is low, anybody can get in. If little was expected from you to start the relationship then you're not necessarily bringing more to the table than anybody else. Either they cheat because it's easy to score, or they're monogamous and you have no idea how valuable you are to them that you couldn't be dumped for just anybody.
---

YoukaiSlayer posted...

What if someone just FEELS like certain people should be enslaved? Is that feeling less valid?

That's not an issue of validity, in fact most of these examples aren't. A feeling can be valid but not appropriate.
---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

That's not an issue of validity, in fact most of these examples aren't. A feeling can be valid but not appropriate.

I suppose valid is a bit up to interpretation. I would say such feelings are not worth consideration at the very least. Almost any other feeling should be considered more important.

---

YoukaiSlayer posted...

I suppose valid is a bit up to interpretation. I would say such feelings are not worth consideration at the very least. Almost any other feeling should be considered more important.

I don't think there's a need to rank importance on feelings. They're not important at all, the associated needs are. There's no need for slaves, there is a need for freedom, so there's no reason to bring it up.
---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

A merchant can sell their goods for what it cost them to acquire it, but I'd have no respect for them. Either you have no sense of worth, or you aren't worth much; either option dealing with you isn't a respectable affair.

Except sex is a mutually enjoyable activity (provided you don't suck at it), not a product. Sure, it can be sold as a service, but framing it like that is not going to be appropriate for the vast majority of people because the vast majority of people aren't prostitutes. When people choose to have sex, it's because they want to have sex, not because they decide that their partner has earned access to that service.

The concepts of "value" and "worth" have no place here. Trying to shoehorn them in is flagrant objectification, and precisely the kind of attitude anti-slut shaming sentiments are trying to combat.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Because if the bar for entry is low, anybody can get in.

So step up your game to make sure you remain the best option. Don't expect all future partners to limit their experience to reduce the chance of having been with somebody better than you. If you're really so insecure that you'd be willing to dump a potential partner because you're worried you're not good enough, talk to them about your insecurities to see how they're feeling, rather than assuming you need to cut your losses and run away.

And that's without considering that relationships are more than sex. Sex is a part of most relationships, yes, but the two can certainly be separated. Somebody having a few Tinder hookups between relationships doesn't mean they aren't going to commit to an exclusive relationship once they find somebody they want to be in a relationship with. Sex is fun. It doesn't have to be anything more than that (provided appropriate protections are used, of course), nor does having sex preclude enjoying the other aspects of whatever relationship they're considering now.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

I don't think there's a need to rank importance on feelings.

Ranking the importance of feelings is the fundamental basis for all subjective arguments. You're comparing opinions on their respective merits and implications to arrive at a conclusion on which is better. Of course there's a need to do that. Literally all conflict resolution depends on doing so.

_AdjI_ posted...

Except sex is a mutually enjoyable activity

It's a tradeable commodity, do you think trade isn't mutually enjoyable?

_AdjI_ posted...

When people choose to have sex, it's because they want to have sex, not because they decide that their partner has earned access to that service.

They want to have sex that offers a good return i.e. good performance, looks, kink gear, etc. People offer what they have for what someone else has.

_AdjI_ posted...

The concepts of "value" and "worth" have no place here. Trying to shoehorn them in is flagrant objectification, and precisely the kind of attitude anti-slut shaming sentiments are trying to combat.

You forgot to REEEEEEE

Anti slut shaming is just trying to up one's desirability without upholding standards.

_AdjI_ posted...

So step up your game to make sure you remain the best option. Don't expect all future partners to limit their experience to reduce the chance of having been with somebody better than you.

What way is up when you've been given too vague directions? You don't know you're putting out a good performance if anything beyond pain is fine.

I expect my partners to be discriminating, I expect them to know what they want and what they can command of people who want them. I don't want someone who's just okay with anything, who'll sway whatever way over stupid nonsense because they don't hold value in anything.

_AdjI_ posted...

If you're really so insecure that you'd be willing to dump a potential partner because you're worried you're not good enough, talk to them about your insecurities to see how they're feeling, rather than assuming you need to cut your losses and run away.

If I can do better, I'd rather leave. If you think you're worth anything then have the self-respect to command a standard from your partners.

_AdjI_ posted...

And that's without considering that relationships are more than sex. Sex is a part of most relationships, yes, but the two can certainly be separated. Somebody having a few Tinder hookups between relationships doesn't mean they aren't going to commit to an exclusive relationship once they find somebody they want to be in a relationship with. Sex is fun. It doesn't have to be anything more than that (provided appropriate protections are used, of course), nor does having sex preclude enjoying the other aspects of whatever relationship they're considering now.

As I said prior, someone who will just take whatever dick doesn't uphold high enough standards for me to want to pursue a relationship with. Feel free to date to village bike, but she's not respectable when she can't even ask small things for what she offers.

_AdjI_ posted...

Ranking the importance of feelings is the fundamental basis for all subjective arguments. You're comparing opinions on their respective merits and implications to arrive at a conclusion on which is better. Of course there's a need to do that. Literally all conflict resolution depends on doing so.

Opinions don't have merit either. The only importance they hold are to people who find you important. Unless you can tie a need to your feelings and opinions, there's no requirement to satisfy your feelings and opinions.

Terrible people can have strong feelings and good opinions but they're not important because they are terrible. A good person can have trivial feelings and awful opinions and they become important because the person is good.
---

I tend to disregard the opinions/feelings of those who are not willing to acknowledge their hypocrisies. I acknowledge my own possible double standards all the time because I learned how to ditch my ego, and now it feels like extra time and energy to talk with people who feel that they can never be wrong.

We're human, everybody makes mistakes. Laugh it off and quit insisting you're always right, no one gives a fuck. Be happy. Quit indulging in projection and victimhood.

I want to live my human experience helping others, having fun, and I can't do that with people who always feel the need to be right.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

It's a tradeable commodity, do you think trade isn't mutually enjoyable?

Not usually for its own sake. It's enjoyable to attain a product or service that you want, and it's enjoyable to attain compensation for that product/service (or at least, the compensation can subsequently be used to attain a product/service that provides later enjoyment), but the simple act of giving somebody money for a new video game doesn't usually get me off, nor do they get off on giving me the game.

The mere act of sex is enjoyable. It's not a matter of providing it as a service in exchange for something enjoyable.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

They want to have sex that offers a good return i.e. good performance, looks, kink gear, etc. People offer what they have for what someone else has.

They want to have a good time, because duh, but that doesn't mean they're exchanging anything but their time for that good time. They choose to spend their time doing something enjoyable, if it's not enjoyable, then that simply means they won't waste their time on it in the future. In practice, that standard is actually probably more common among those with more sexual partners than fewer, because having more varied experience means one is more able to recognize when sex has been sub-par and it's not worth hooking up with that person again.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

What way is up when you've been given too vague directions? You don't know you're putting out a good performance if anything beyond pain is fine.

You could always, I dunno, talk to your partner? This seems to be a novel concept for you, but relationships aren't typically between a man and a wordless sexual vending machine. If you want to know how to be a better partner for somebody you're interested in, communicate with them to find out how. That's always going to be true, whether you're dating somebody who's never dated anyone before or whether you're dating somebody who's had a new partner every month since hitting puberty. Humans invented words, so now you don't have to jump to conclusions.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

I expect my partners to be discriminating, I expect them to know what they want and what they can command of people who want them.

That typically comes with experience, not by holding yourself to such a high standard that you don't let anyone have you. You only learn what you like by trying out different things and comparing them to other things you've tried. That applies to all of life, really.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

As I said prior, someone who will just take whatever dick doesn't uphold high enough standards for me to want to pursue a relationship with.

And you've still failed to explain why sexual standards have anything to do with forming a relationship. One can very easily have high standards for a romantic/potential life partner while filling the gap between relationships with casual hookups. Again, sex is fun. It doesn't have to be anything more than that, nor does treating it casually mean one isn't going to be applying more stringent standards to serious relationships. Conflating relationships and sex to such a degree is baseless and foolish.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Opinions don't have merit either.

I can see why you might think that, but those of us whose opinions are based on sound empirical reasoning and careful consideration of their implications would be inclined to disagree. My opinions have plenty of merit.

_AdjI_ posted...

Why would it be? We'll discount currently sleeping with other guys because that's not what's being discussed here, but provided appropriate steps are taken to ensure the safety of all involved parties (namely STD testing), why should sexual history have any bearing on a present relationship?

...you honestly don't see any difference between a bunch of relationships over a long period of time vs a bunch of relationships over a short period of time? >_>

_AdjI_ posted...

I've personally seen you break out the "A key that fits many locks..." analogy in this context, so I really hope you don't plan on pretending you think there isn't a sexist double standard when it comes to promiscuity.

I think you may be confusing me for PO again because that's kind of his catch phrase but sure, there are different standards regarding genders in pretty much every area. And in general, there seems to be a mistaken belief that "equality" means no differences between the genders when there are *always* going to be differences between the genders because they can act and see things in different ways. If they didn't, life would be a lot simpler.

_AdjI_ posted...

It should, if they have some modicum of self-awareness. Being a hypocrite doesn't automatically make somebody wrong, but when the only factor involved in forming the position is "I feel this is the wrong thing to do," it does.

It shouldn't, though, because there's no logical justification. And if you're promoting the idea of sexual preference based on "sameness," then your ideal would be same-sex incest (because you'd share the same everything, right down to DNA and gender). While people may look for *some* similarities regarding partners, they also look for differences as well.

And broadly speaking there's the idea of exclusivity. If a man or woman has had many partners, being chosen by them is going to be less special.

Gaawa_chan posted...

If you see people on the street and immediately assume that they are to blame for everything that's gone wrong in their lives and that if only the hundreds of thousands of individuals with little to no power would just fix their problems on their own so that you wouldn't be inconvenienced by their existence, then yeah, your feelings are not valid.

Your post is still mostly gibberish, although at least it's slightly more comprehensible than the one I responded to and which I criticized for being a complete mess.

As for the subject of homelessness, even the way you preface the conversation shows how you wrongly you think about the subject. You think about things in the context of "blame" rather than "responsibility." Whether a person falls into a ditch or is shoved, it's up to them to pull themselves out. How you get there matters less than how you get out of there.

That said, a certain % of the homeless has mental illness problems that impede their ability to climb out and others really need rehab to become functional people again.

SunWuKung420 posted...

When what a person is feeling is based on incorrect assumptions and falsehoods.

Also this, although I'd add that feelings are less meaningful when it's something being parroted.

_AdjI_ posted...

Except sex is a mutually enjoyable activity (provided you don't suck at it), not a product. Sure, it can be sold as a service, but framing it like that is not going to be appropriate for the vast majority of people because the vast majority of people aren't prostitutes. When people choose to have sex, it's because they want to have sex, not because they decide that their partner has earned access to that service.

The concepts of "value" and "worth" have no place here. Trying to shoehorn them in is flagrant objectification, and precisely the kind of attitude anti-slut shaming sentiments are trying to combat.

And singing/music is an enjoyable experience, but people assign value to that on any number of factors. Just because it's something both parties can enjoy doesn't necessarily mean that it lacks worth.

---

YoukaiSlayer posted...

What if someone just FEELS like certain people should be enslaved? Is that feeling less valid?

Any feelings that infringe upon other's rights are inherently less valid than ones that don't

---