Poll of the Day > I just cant get over how Episode I should not exist

(+) Yeah! (+)

Start at AotC,

Spread the conspiracy nonsense over 2.5 movies instead of cramming it all into a short jibberish sideplot

Have Dooku and General Grievous (and Maul) be actual antagonists instead of glorified minibosses

Fuck I just hate the Phantom Menace so much

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Phantom Menace is ok. Attack of the Clones is the worst of the entire SW franchise and should be the one you should be hating.

the person who hired Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker should be blacklisted from Hollywood forever

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The phantom menace is better than aotc

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DirtBasedSoap posted...

The phantom menace is better than aotc

But Attack of the Clones needs to exist while TPM doesn't

It's the Solo of 1999

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the only movies in the series that dont need to exist are 7,8 and 9

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TPM is by far the best prequel. eps 2 and 3 are super generic, at least phantom menace is odd and different

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TPM is the only Star Wars movie outside of the original trilogy to present any new ideas.

It also gave us the single greatest idea in all of Star Wars...pod racing.

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At least I remember stuff about TPM and enjoyed it.

Everything I keep thinking is in AotC is either in TPM or RotS. Literally never recall a single thing from that movie.

Get old enough and it no longer does. There are advantages to forgetting all movies you have not seen in the last month or two.

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wolfy42 posted...

Get old enough and it no longer does. There are advantages to forgetting all movies you have not seen in the last month or two.

I remember stuff from potty training and my parents being married (they divorced when I was 4) and forget other stuff all the time.

So... My brain is a complete shit show and that's not how my brain works unfortunately. There are random things I think I'll remember until I die, and most of them aren't at all important. Where I just sat something? Mixed bag of results. Where I just saw a thing? Good luck.

I was 9 when it came out and it was the first Star Wars I got to see in theaters. I don't really care about the haters, I greatly enjoyed it then and watched it a bunch as a kid. It's my favorite of the prequels. I also don't think the prequels are as bad as people say they are. Star Wars has always been a silly science fantasy series that's not incredibly deep. If I wanted a deep and political space opera there's plenty of good books out there.

While TPM doesn't really add anything, it's kinda needed for establishing Darth Maul?

DirtBasedSoap posted...

The phantom menace is better than aotc

Wrong.


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Blightzkrieg posted...

Start at AotC,

Spread the conspiracy nonsense over 2.5 movies instead of cramming it all into a short jibberish sideplot

Have Dooku and General Grievous (and Maul) be actual antagonists instead of glorified minibosses

Fuck I just hate the Phantom Menace so much

Or better yet, just watch the original trilogy (Despecialized) and none of the other films.

CaptainStrong posted...

Or better yet, just watch the original trilogy (Despecialized) and none of the other films.

Or even better, don't burden yourself with that clusterfuck of a franchise.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Or even better, don't burden yourself with that clusterfuck of a franchise.

Why? The original trilogy is good.

ChaosAzeroth posted...

I remember stuff from potty training

How is that possible

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OniRonin posted...

TPM is by far the best prequel. eps 2 and 3 are super generic, at least phantom menace is odd and different

LMAO

FrozenBananas posted...

Phantom Menace is ok. Attack of the Clones is the worst of the entire SW franchise

lol no.

So very, very no.



Blightzkrieg posted...

But Attack of the Clones needs to exist while TPM doesn't

To be fair, neither of them really need to exist. The original trilogy told a self-contained story, and even if it occasionally mentioned things that happened before, we didn't need to go back to SEE those things. We already know that Anakin becomes Vader. We know Palps is evil and turns the Republic into the Empire. We know they hunt down the Jedi. Leaving those things in the past makes them almost mythological - making movies about them brings them down to mundanity, and when those movies wind up being terrible, it makes all of those moments lame.

The Solo comparison was apt - Solo's entire backstory is intriguing because it's a mystery. Seeing a lame telling of what he was like when he was younger, and trying to cram references to all the things we already know about him into one mediocre film robs all of those moments of almost all of their actual appeal. In the same way, we'd have been much better off never seeing anything that happened before Luke began his own story. The Prequels aren't a story that NEEDED to be told.

And if it HAD been a story that needed to be told, it's a story that should have been told much, much better than it was.

The only reason the prequels exist at all is because Lucas ran out of characters and concepts from the original movies to make toys out of, so decided he needed to make a few more movies to expand the line and allow him to make another few billion in merch money.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

To be fair, neither of them really need to exist.

I meant in the context of the prequels needing to tell a comprehensive story that is easily understood.

The time skip between I and II is sufficient that the status quo has completely changed between films.

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CaptainStrong posted...

Why? The original trilogy is good.

It's not though. It's not terrible, but that's primarily from world building, not the plot or characters.
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Blightzkrieg posted...

Start at AotC,

Spread the conspiracy nonsense over 2.5 movies instead of cramming it all into a short jibberish sideplot

Have Dooku and General Grievous (and Maul) be actual antagonists instead of glorified minibosses

Fuck I just hate the Phantom Menace so much

All that CGI takes me out of the whole thing completely. AND I felt like this back when it first came out too! That shit never looked good or realistic.

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DirtBasedSoap posted...

the only movies in the series that need to exist are 4,5 and 6

Couldn't have said it better myself!

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Blightzkrieg posted...

Start at AotC, spread the conspiracy nonsense over 2.5 movies instead of cramming it all into a short jibberish sideplot

I've actually said this for years.

Episode 1 - have the Clone Wars either already started or on the verge of starting when the movie begins (ideally, the Clone Wars becomes the unifying conflict across all three movies - for thematic power, have the first shot fired at the very beginning of Episode I and the last few minutes of Episode III is its ending). Obi-Wan (as a full Jedi, and without any added complications from Qui-Gon, who should never have existed - YODA was Obi-Wan's master) meets Anakin (as a hotshot teenage pilot, who clearly uses his unconscious affinity for the Force to augment his skills - basically, make him the Han Solo of this trilogy), and Obi-Wan senses the Force potential in him. This movie winds up being a relatively straightforward adventure where the two (and possibly some likeable side-characters) save the day (if only for the moment). This would be the perfect time to introduce the Padme character (as an older female character, preferably a heroic role in her own right and not just a love interest) and lean very heavily into the flirty attraction between her and Anakin - if they're not dating by the end of the movie, it should be obvious they soon will be.

We're left with Anakin as main character and Obi-Wan as a slightly older, more staid, but still somewhat reckless himself Straight Man (in some ways, replicate but reverse the Han/Luke dynamic - instead of a world-weary pilot and a young earnest Jedi-in-training you have the young pilot and the Jedi is the one who's been around and seen things). We're also left with a main character we actually LIKE, and thus the impact of the turn will have more pathos. And ideally, we've laid the groundwork for a romance that doesn't feel creepy, awkward, and incredibly shoehorned in later.

Also, as an aside, drop the prophecy thing unless it's a LOT more subtle, and don't have the entire Jedi Council opposed to training Anakin. Ideally, there shouldn't BE a Jedi Council - the Jedi should be a relatively small order of wandering monks who travel from planet to planet, inserting themselves into dangerous situations, and diffusing them before they grow too disruptive. They're like the stereotypical Wild West gunslinger (or the ronin samurai they were literally based on), riding into town, saving the day, and then riding off into the sunset. Jedi should probably be relatively rare (which explains why people think the Force is a myth and the Jedi are obsolete only a few decades later - most people in the galaxy probably never SEE a Jedi once in their entire lives even at the height of their power), and we only occasionally see a few new ones show up during the Prequels (crossing paths with Anakin and Obi-Wan during the war). If we need the prophecy at all, have it be something even most Jedi have never heard of, maybe something only Yoda remembers, which he mentions at some point but which doesn't become the entire driving focus of the plot. Obi-Wan shouldn't feel obligated to train Anakin because Qui-Gon decided he was Space Jesus/THE CHILD OF PROPHECY, Obi-Wan should train Anakin because OBI-WAN saw potential in Anakin.

Also along those lines, there's NO Jedi Academy/classes/etc where dozens of "younglings" are training. That's stupid, lame, and kind of contradicts how Obi-Wan implies things were. Jedi should probably be following a more traditional master/apprentice relationship (the same way the Sith do - thus heightening the similarities between the Jedi and Sith). Anakin's ultimate turn thus winds up being a simple shift from one master to another, with the core difference in philosophies being that the Jedi eventually turn their apprentices loose (and both former master and former apprentice will eventually take on new apprentices of their own), while the Sith don't allow an apprentice to take apprentices of their own until they kill their master (and vice-versa). The Jedi are a branching tree, the Sith are a line.

Episode 2 starts a few years later. We're still in the middle of the Clone Wars. Anakin has been training with Obi-Wan for a while by this point, and is more or less a Jedi. The master/student dynamic is bolstered by the fact that they get along very well - Obi-Wan's nostalgia for Anakin being "a good friend" makes ZERO sense from anything we see in the Prequels as they exist (where Anakin is a shit 90% of the time) - we NEED to see the two of them actually LIKING each other. We NEED to see Anakin as "a good man" before we can appreciate his fall - as is, he just comes across like a broken child who never really matures, who is a bad seed from birth, and who was always destined to fall. That's not tragedy.

Ideally, we continue the Han/Luke parallel. In the original films Luke and Han start out somewhat at odds, but then slowly grow into close friends. For 80% of the trilogy, we fully believe either of them would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the other. So we reverse that for Anakin/Obi-Wan - they start out close almost immediately, are obviously best friends for 80% of the trilogy, and it's only at the end when Anakin starts to fall that their relationship sours.

To further the overall arc, we see hints of Anakin's recklessness or darker potential (not blatantly murdering dozens of Sand People and then "feeling bad" about it later for about 5 minutes, that's stupid). Best-case scenario, Obi-Wan isn't around for these darker moments, but Padme (or Padme substitute) is. She might worry about them, or perhaps her love for him is stronger than her fear, and she supports him because she knows he's a "good man", and "things aren't always black and white".

(cont)
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(cont)

By Episode 3, both Anakin and Obi-Wan (and the Republic as a whole) are worn down by constant war. It should be established that the war has taken a toll on most planets (and people), and not just being some stupid thing most people can ignore as if it wasn't even happening. It's that fatigue and fear that will allow Palpatine to take over (if anything, the Palpatine parts of the Prequels are about the only elements I'd mostly keep intact - they're a fairly strong arc, and having him slowly manipulate his way into power works well. But it almost works better if he's NOT playing both sides of the war, but merely taking advantage of a war that would have happened regardless). Obi-Wan is well on his way to the more tired, sardonic self he is in Episode IV, but Anakin is going down a darker route. Frustration, bitterness. A desire to see the war end (especially since part of him just wants to settle down and live a normal life with his girlfriend/wife, raise a family, etc). THIS is what ultimately drives him to darker measures - a desire to end war, to bring order to a chaotic galaxy. In his mind he's doing it for his love and his family, but he's starting to go to greater extremes, and this in turn is what drives his love away (and thus giving birth in secret).

Padme doesn't die in childbirth (that's lame, and contradicts Episode VI). Anakin doesn't turn to save her, only to kill her (that's ironic, but also lame). What happens is that she leaves him - and he lets her go, because he loves her. She's not a possession to be kept, or a prisoner to be held against her will (again, we need to LIKE Anakin, not have him be a shit). She leaves, he lets her go - and afterwards she finds out she's pregnant. THAT'S why Anakin never realizes he has children. And that's the weakness that never allows him to truly embrace the Dark Side - even until the end, he preserves his love for her in his heart, and on some level believes that everything he does makes the galaxy a better place.

He never attempts to find her, or reclaim her, or even see her again, because after he's burned and fully becomes "Vader", he no longer considers himself worthy of her. "No one could love the half-man that I have become." He makes himself cold, and callous, and pretends that he no longer loves her, to PROTECT himself. But that pain is always there. That love is always there. Buried deep. And that's what Luke calls up in the end. That's what redeems him.

And no, "Anakin" and "Vader" aren't magically two different people, because that's stupid. Vader IS Anakin - just a hurt, broken, bitter Anakin who spends decades trying to hide from himself inside a mask and a shadow. The sort of man who would probably go "No, that man is dead" if someone ever called him Anakin. Because he's lying to himself.

This also explains why he never hunts down Obi-Wan, in spite of Obi-Wan barely bothering to really disguise his identity in hiding. On some level, Vader doesn't really want to face Obi-Wan again, because he lost the first time. If anything, the reason he lost the first time might be tied to why he doesn't seek him out again - at some level, buried deep, he still has some fleeting fondness for his old master, and the times they spent together. That fondness isn't enough to prevent him from killing him when they meet again, but it's enough to keep him from actively searching the entire galaxy for him to seek him out.

So Episode III is where we finally see Anakin turn to the Dark Side, betray the Jedi, and join the Emperor. The Clone Wars end, and maybe we get to see Anakin/Vader kill/hunt down a Jedi or two himself, or maybe we just imply that's in the future, taking place in the time between the two trilogies. Episode III is also where Obi-Wan realizes (too late) that Anakin is falling, spending most of the film trying to redeem him before finally facing him at the end. We probably also get a scene between Obi-Wan and Yoda, where Obi-Wan admits that he wasn't as good a teacher as Yoda, while Yoda tells his former apprentice that all things happen for a reason (perhaps this is where the prophecy is finally hammered home, and we realize that the "Balance" Anakin is bringing to the Force is a galaxy where there aren't dozens of Jedi and only two Sith, but two and two. Or perhaps both the Sith AND the Jedi are disruptive in their own way, and the true balance is a galaxy where they're both gone).

(The prophecy is mostly there just to further the Anakin-as-Space-Jesus allegory, though, and I find that incredibly stupid, because it greatly diminishes Luke's role in the story as well as feeling kind of cheesy, so we could do away with the prophecy entirely and I'd be fine with that.)

For bonus points, if we've managed to establish a couple other cool and likeable characters in the previous two movies as side-kicks and friends to Anakin and Obi-Wan, Episode III is where we kill them off. If it happens earlier enough we can have Anakin rage over the loss (thus furthering his fall), or if it happens later on, he can remain cold and callous (thus highlighting how far he's already fallen). If we have enough likeable side-characters, we can do both.

My other main points of contention for the overarching story are the Clone War itself and the droids. We should probably make the Clone Wars something where the clones are the enemy, not a lame plot twist to try and sterilize the war by having it be between robots and clones (supported by the fact that in real life, we usually tend to name wars after the people we're fighting, not ourselves - the Punic Wars were named that because the Romans won, and then wrote about their victories against the Punic Empire of Carthage). Make the clones alien monsters, and emphasize that good men and women (actual people) are dying fighting them (thus turning the people against the Republic). Make them evil enough that we don't start asking moral questions about the Republic killing them all, or leave us feeling guilty about them all getting wiped out to end the war. The Empire should be seen as a thing to praise (at first), a powerful unified government that was finally able to end the threat for good. The Empire calls it the Clone Wars because they fought and defeated clones. The end.

As for the droids, no, I don't care if people like 3PO and R2, they shouldn't be in the Prequels. We see their story begin in A New Hope, and retconning them back into everything else is contrived as fuck. If we need new droid characters, we can come up with cool ones (like the one everyone liked from Rogue One, not the one everyone hated from Solo).

Basically, what Lucas should have done is sat down, actually watched his own fucking movies, and parsed out what Obi-Wan said, and tried to make the Prequels feel more like the universe was actually implied to be, rather than deciding to go off an entirely different path that feels like it barely fits in the same franchise, and then half-ass the character turn that is supposed to be the entire point of the Prequels in the first place.
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DirtBasedSoap posted...

the only movies in the series that dont need to exist are 7,8 and 9

Yeah. 1, 2, and 3 look like masterpieces next to 7, 8, and 9.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

It's not though. It's not terrible, but that's primarily from world building, not the plot or characters

The world-building was fine. Not every setting needs a 10,000 page atlas/story bible that nerdy fans can jerk off to for years to come, or that dozens of different writers can try to build an EU around decades later.

The allusions to events you knew nothing about make the world feel more real. Like real life, there's no true "beginning" or "ending" to any story, there are always things that happened "before" and things that will happen "later". You're basically seeing the story through Luke's eyes - to him, things like the Clone Wars or the life of Anakin will always be little more than hazy hints, because he didn't see those things.

It's like when Lord of the Rings mentions things that happened thousands of years before. Yes, the Silmarillion exists, but it doesn't need to. People in the Third Age speaking of thousands of years of beauty and culture that have been forever lost highlights the fading glory of the elves or the slow doom of the dwarves, and thus creates a sense of tragedy, loss, of things passing. You don't need to tell an epic and intricate tale of every single event of consequence or importance through the entirety of the First and Second Age to appreciate the events of the Third Age. We don't really need to see the glory of Numenor at its height or know the exact details of how it fell to appreciate the slow decay of its people and culture, the rot at the heart of Gondor, the loss of Arnor, the slow fading of Men, which parallels the withering of the other races.

When done right, that sort of "flashback" CAN add to a story. But when done poorly, it detracts from it.



Black_Crusher posted...

All that CGI takes me out of the whole thing completely. AND I felt like this back when it first came out too! That shit never looked good or realistic.

This is the other real problem with the Prequels. Too much emphasis on CGI makes everything look like a video game. Trying to cram as much action as possible on the screen weakens the overall effect, because no one moment or thing has the same gravitas. Worse, when the actors are literally standing in an entirely green room talking to thin-air, it hampers their ability to emote. At least part of the near-universal terrible acting in the Prequels stems from this (and the rest stems from Lucas' inability to write or direct human dialogue, something every actor he's ever worked with has complained about, and why his films work best when someone else is directing or screenwriting over him).

Again, to pull out the LotR comparison, this is part of why the LotR films are so praised while the Hobbit films feel so much weaker. Too much greenscreen takes actors out of the world, and takes the audience out of their immersion. I CARE less about a world when my brain is constantly telling me how fake it is - even a crappy studio set tends to have more verisimilitude than most CGI does.

This is the one thing the Sequels got right - everything tends to LOOK better, and thus allows better immersion into the world. The visual storytelling is much tighter, and more effective. The real problem there is that the scripts are so weak, and the lack of a unifying vision. Disney would have been far better off looking to see why the Marvel movies have been so successful, and implementing a similar scheme for Star Wars, rather than seemingly leaving the entire franchise they paid $4 billion for to aimlessly flounder.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

(cont)

By Episode 3, both Anakin and Obi-Wan (and the Republic as a whole) are worn down by constant war. It should be established that the war has taken a toll on most planets (and people), and not just being some stupid thing most people can ignore as if it wasn't even happening. It's that fatigue and fear that will allow Palpatine to take over (if anything, the Palpatine parts of the Prequels are about the only elements I'd mostly keep intact - they're a fairly strong arc, and having him slowly manipulate his way into power works well. But it almost works better if he's NOT playing both sides of the war, but merely taking advantage of a war that would have happened regardless). Obi-Wan is well on his way to the more tired, sardonic self he is in Episode IV, but Anakin is going down a darker route. Frustration, bitterness. A desire to see the war end (especially since part of him just wants to settle down and live a normal life with his girlfriend/wife, raise a family, etc). THIS is what ultimately drives him to darker measures - a desire to end war, to bring order to a chaotic galaxy. In his mind he's doing it for his love and his family, but he's starting to go to greater extremes, and this in turn is what drives his love away (and thus giving birth in secret).

Padme doesn't die in childbirth (that's lame, and contradicts Episode VI). Anakin doesn't turn to save her, only to kill her (that's ironic, but also lame). What happens is that she leaves him - and he lets her go, because he loves her. She's not a possession to be kept, or a prisoner to be held against her will (again, we need to LIKE Anakin, not have him be a shit). She leaves, he lets her go - and afterwards she finds out she's pregnant. THAT'S why Anakin never realizes he has children. And that's the weakness that never allows him to truly embrace the Dark Side - even until the end, he preserves his love for her in his heart, and on some level believes that everything he does makes the galaxy a better place.

He never attempts to find her, or reclaim her, or even see her again, because after he's burned and fully becomes "Vader", he no longer considers himself worthy of her. "No one could love the half-man that I have become." He makes himself cold, and callous, and pretends that he no longer loves her, to PROTECT himself. But that pain is always there. That love is always there. Buried deep. And that's what Luke calls up in the end. That's what redeems him.

And no, "Anakin" and "Vader" aren't magically two different people, because that's stupid. Vader IS Anakin - just a hurt, broken, bitter Anakin who spends decades trying to hide from himself inside a mask and a shadow. The sort of man who would probably go "No, that man is dead" if someone ever called him Anakin. Because he's lying to himself.

This also explains why he never hunts down Obi-Wan, in spite of Obi-Wan barely bothering to really disguise his identity in hiding. On some level, Vader doesn't really want to face Obi-Wan again, because he lost the first time. If anything, the reason he lost the first time might be tied to why he doesn't seek him out again - at some level, buried deep, he still has some fleeting fondness for his old master, and the times they spent together. That fondness isn't enough to prevent him from killing him when they meet again, but it's enough to keep him from actively searching the entire galaxy for him to seek him out.

So Episode III is where we finally see Anakin turn to the Dark Side, betray the Jedi, and join the Emperor. The Clone Wars end, and maybe we get to see Anakin/Vader kill/hunt down a Jedi or two himself, or maybe we just imply that's in the future, taking place in the time between the two trilogies. Episode III is also where Obi-Wan realizes (too late) that Anakin is falling, spending most of the film trying to redeem him before finally facing him at the end. We probably also get a scene between Obi-Wan and Yoda, where Obi-Wan admits that he wasn't as good a teacher as Yoda, while Yoda tells his former apprentice that all things happen for a reason (perhaps this is where the prophecy is finally hammered home, and we realize that the "Balance" Anakin is bringing to the Force is a galaxy where there aren't dozens of Jedi and only two Sith, but two and two. Or perhaps both the Sith AND the Jedi are disruptive in their own way, and the true balance is a galaxy where they're both gone).

(The prophecy is mostly there just to further the Anakin-as-Space-Jesus allegory, though, and I find that incredibly stupid, because it greatly diminishes Luke's role in the story as well as feeling kind of cheesy, so we could do away with the prophecy entirely and I'd be fine with that.)

For bonus points, if we've managed to establish a couple other cool and likeable characters in the previous two movies as side-kicks and friends to Anakin and Obi-Wan, Episode III is where we kill them off. If it happens earlier enough we can have Anakin rage over the loss (thus furthering his fall), or if it happens later on, he can remain cold and callous (thus highlighting how far he's already fallen). If we have enough likeable side-characters, we can do both.

My other main points of contention for the overarching story are the Clone War itself and the droids. We should probably make the Clone Wars something where the clones are the enemy, not a lame plot twist to try and sterilize the war by having it be between robots and clones (supported by the fact that in real life, we usually tend to name wars after the people we're fighting, not ourselves - the Punic Wars were named that because the Romans won, and then wrote about their victories against the Punic Empire of Carthage). Make the clones alien monsters, and emphasize that good men and women (actual people) are dying fighting them (thus turning the people against the Republic). Make them evil enough that we don't start asking moral questions about the Republic killing them all, or leave us feeling guilty about them all getting wiped out to end the war. The Empire should be seen as a thing to praise (at first), a powerful unified government that was finally able to end the threat for good. The Empire calls it the Clone Wars because they fought and defeated clones. The end.

As for the droids, no, I don't care if people like 3PO and R2, they shouldn't be in the Prequels. We see their story begin in A New Hope, and retconning them back into everything else is contrived as fuck. If we need new droid characters, we can come up with cool ones (like the one everyone liked from Rogue One, not the one everyone hated from Solo).

Basically, what Lucas should have done is sat down, actually watched his own fucking movies, and parsed out what Obi-Wan said, and tried to make the Prequels feel more like the universe was actually implied to be, rather than deciding to go off an entirely different path that feels like it barely fits in the same franchise, and then half-ass the character turn that is supposed to be the entire point of the Prequels in the first place.

Tl;dr

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But Episode 1 Racer wouldn't exist then

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papercup posted...

But Episode 1 Racer wouldn't exist then

The podracing scene is like the only thing in Episode I that is genuinely great

And yes I'm including Maul

FUCK Maul

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https://youtu.be/hHOTkSfVb4o

This topic summed up in a simpsons joke

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Blightzkrieg posted...

And yes I'm including Maul

FUCK Maul

Ideally, you have Maul as a building threat. Hint at him in the first movie. Have him be badass. Have him kill a major character or two. The heroes ultimately defeat him, but he escapes and lives to fight another day. Then you have him show up again in the next two movies, being most effective and badass in Episode II, and eventually being killed for good in Episode III. Instead of cranking out Dooku and Grevious to fill that role so they can sell a couple more toys, just have Maul play the second-in-command role for the entire trilogy, only dying shortly before Palps manages to seduce Anakin to the Dark Side. Could even try to salvage the scene from RotS where Anakin beheads Dooku, with Maul in that role and that scene being the pivotal moment of choice and not just a throwaway moment in the beginning of the film before he turns later.

Though if you want to keep that moment, I'd almost be more inclined to keep something like the "Mace stupidly going to arrest Palps" scene, then have Anakin take a more active role in protecting Palps. Ending with Anakin beheading Mace himself.

Maul's supposed to be the Vader of the movie. But he's basically Vader if Vader got a third of the screen-time, almost no dialogue, and then he died when Han shot his TIE Fighter in the end. He should have been more proactive, more vocal, and more of a long-term threat. Instead, he basically becomes a punchline.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Ideally, you have Maul as a building threat. Hint at him in the first movie. Have him be badass. Have him kill a major character or two. The heroes ultimately defeat him, but he escapes and lives to fight another day. Then you have him show up again in the next two movies, being most effective and badass in Episode II, and eventually being killed for good in Episode III. Instead of cranking out Dooku and Grevious to fill that role so they can sell a couple more toys, just have Maul play the second-in-command role for the entire trilogy, only dying shortly before Palps manages to seduce Anakin to the Dark Side. Could even try to salvage the scene from RotS where Anakin beheads Dooku, with Maul in that role and that scene being the pivotal moment of choice and not just a throwaway moment in the beginning of the film before he turns later.

Though if you want to keep that moment, I'd almost be more inclined to keep something like the "Mace stupidly going to arrest Palps" scene, then have Anakin take a more active role in protecting Palps. Ending with Anakin beheading Mace himself.

Maul's supposed to be the Vader of the movie. But he's basically Vader if Vader got a third of the screen-time, almost no dialogue, and then he died when Han shot his TIE Fighter in the end. He should have been more proactive, more vocal, and more of a long-term threat. Instead, he basically becomes a punchline.

wow, no wonder you hate it. you totally missed the point of the movie lol

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Darth Maul represents the duality of man, who is at once a savage beast driven by animal instincts and also a joke designed to sell toys to 13 year old boys

I'm pretty sure they skinned Darth Maul and turned him into a gamer chair.

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darth maul isn't even the bad guy. it's a movie about pedophilia in the jedi order

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Blightzkrieg posted...

Start at AotC,

Spread the conspiracy nonsense over 2.5 movies instead of cramming it all into a short jibberish sideplot

Have Dooku and General Grievous (and Maul) be actual antagonists instead of glorified minibosses

Fuck I just hate the Phantom Menace so much

What do ahead of the curve achievements have to do with star wars?

Qui-gon, Maul, and Mace made it worth it imo, if only we got to see them in a better written story

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Want to respond to PO about some stuff but keep forgetting, so bumping this until I have like six hours of free time to read that.

One random thought I had while watching through the films is that it's awesome how every Ewok looks completely unique. Even for Star Wars, that's not a degree of effort you often see for the aliens, which is a damn shame. It's one thing that CGI cut and paste has definitely made even worse.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Episode 1

I know the common answer is "Anakin should have been older", and I don't really disagree with that, but I don't actually hate kid Anakin. His characterization is that he's completely selfless and almost naive, and I sort of get why we would want to see that if we assume the intent behind the prequels was a character study on Vader. So I think an alternative that doesn't really get talked about would be to age Padme down, significantly (or compromise, say have them both be like 13). Lucas clearly can't write people falling in love, which is why Episode II opens with them being in love already (and ESB opens with Han and Leia already being in love). This of course doesn't make sense, because they haven't interacted in ten years and when they did he was a fucking child.

I also don't really mind how the Jedi were presented (mostly). It's hard to say "This is how the Jedi should be" based on the OT, because there's not a lot there and what is there shifts from film to film (and even scene to scene). Like most of Star Wars, they draw from a lot of inspirations simultaneously which is what makes them so interesting. The prequels seemed to settle on "They are basically the Knights Templar" because Lucas probably liked the rhyming thing with history. My bigger issue was how involved the Jedi seem to be with Galactic politics. Why would they be plotting to take over the Republic when they basically run it already (counter argument: Palpatine)? Why does everybody forget about them in 20 years? Even when going with the Knights Templar angle, they should probably be more spread out (like the actual Knights Templar) rather than living on the White House's front lawn.

The prophecy shouldn't exist, Qui-Gon shouldn't exist, the Rule of Two definitely shouldn't exist. The OT contains a lot of small pointless details and characters that add to the universe without complicating it. The PT has a lot of unnecessary baggage that slows everything down.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Episode 2

I really like the first 30 minutes of Episode 3 because it's basically this. It almost feels like a course correction after they hated each other for the entirety of Episode 2. So it was clearly an angle they could pursue, they just...didn't.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Episode 3

Another approach I think would be if we do start with the Clone Wars, you can even have Anakin turn (or at least begin to turn) by the end of Episode 2 and have Episode 3 take place during the Dark Times. Anakin's turn in Episode 3 felt sudden and this gives you the opportunity to have the whole thing feel more gradual, where maybe he's doing evil things in Episode 3 but feels conflicted or is trying to justify it, while having him slowly escalate and spiral downwards by the end. You can have Obi-Wan in direct opposition to him for the whole film and have his wife leave him somewhere in the mid point.

I mostly suggest this as a way to correct the timeline though. There's no fucking way the Jedi should be exterminated 19 years prior to ANH. You can't have Anakin in his early 20s and Obi-Wan at like 30. Their ages in the OT just don't support this. They should both be like 40, at the height of their jedi careers (another minor detail, I don't like how Jedi power levels seem to increase linearly with time, characters like Yoda, the Emperor, and old-bi-wan should be in supporting, supernatural roles but not fit for combat due to the restrictions of their physical bodies).

ParanoidObsessive posted...

the Clone War itself and the droids

I don't have strong feelings for or against the clone wars as they exist now. I am kind of attached to what they've grown into. They should be more at the forefront of what's going on though, and we should connect more with the specific soldiers involved on a surface level. A lot of time in the OT is spent on the Rebels and the Empire as military forces, even though it's often not directly driving the action. The Battle of Hoth is largely superfluous to the story, but it's still one of the most iconic moments of the series. Part of that is the setting and military forces on both sides of the battle feeling so well established and the conditions for victory and defeat being well understood by the audience. It's almost like a mini-movie inside ESB.

One thing I must say is that the Clone Wars should absolutely not, under any circumstances, be about Evil Jedi Clones. First of all, I cannot reasonably believe in that case that Luke knows what the Clone Wars are but doesn't know what Jedi are. Secondly, it trivializes the force to such an extent that midi-chlorians look like a flea bite next to the atomic bombings.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I don't care if people like 3PO and R2, they shouldn't be in the Prequels.

nah fam having Darth Vader build C-3PO is legitimately amazing, it's like fanfiction on fucking steroids I love it.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Again, to pull out the LotR comparison, this is part of why the LotR films are so praised while the Hobbit films feel so much weaker.

The Hobbit films are worse than the PT.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Ideally, you have Maul as a building threat

I'd go as far as to say that Maul is just conceptually bad from the ground up. I like Dooku as an antagonist a lot more (though he does carry baggage from being a Dracula reference). He is very much the proto-Vader, and if they actually committed just a bit to his moral ambiguity (have him use a blue/green lightsaber for a few fight scenes) rather than having the toy commercials call him Darth Tyranus, you can have him play an active role in helping drive Anakin to the dark side. I do like that rhyming scene at the beginning of RotS, when Anakin makes the opposite choice to Luke in RotJ, I found it quite clever. Dooku just connects more to the themes of the PT, of jedi and republic incompetence and corruption, and how Palpatine is controlling every aspect of the Clone Wars.

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