Poll of the Day > Is this fraud?

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BlackScythe0
07/01/20 12:05:34 AM
#51:


Jen0125 posted...
Is it your business what they're doing?

Well yea, it's tax dollars.

I work at an essential business and did not get this "choice" not only do I have to work but I had to deal with traffic going up 2-3 times and not being able to hire anyone to deal with it.

It is a serious problem that such a large amount of money is going out to people for nothing when we can't hire anyone despite how desperate we are.
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PsychoGamer64
07/01/20 12:05:53 AM
#52:


Move on, bro. She's cheating on you.

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Jen0125
07/01/20 12:06:56 AM
#53:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Well yea, it's tax dollars.

I work at an essential business and did not get this "choice" not only do I have to work but I had to deal with traffic going up 2-3 times and not being able to hire anyone to deal with it.

It is a serious problem that such a large amount of money is going out to people for nothing when we can't hire anyone despite how desperate we are.

Is it your business what people do

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BlackScythe0
07/01/20 12:10:09 AM
#54:


Jen0125 posted...
Is it your business what people do

Well yea, it's a discussion of government policy.
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Jen0125
07/01/20 12:55:34 AM
#55:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Well yea, it's a discussion of government policy.


Is it ur personal business tho

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BlackScythe0
07/01/20 1:01:24 AM
#56:


Jen0125 posted...
Is it ur personal business tho
Yep

(I'm not going to back down from nonsense like that you know?)
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Jen0125
07/01/20 1:04:28 AM
#57:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Yep

(I'm not going to back down from nonsense like that you know?)

It probably would be good for your mental health if you minded your own business

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BlackScythe0
07/01/20 1:17:11 AM
#58:


Jen0125 posted...
It probably would be good for your mental health if you minded your own business

I didn't post anything that wasn't my business.
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Jen0125
07/01/20 1:31:58 AM
#59:


BlackScythe0 posted...
I didn't post anything that wasn't my business.

Then why did you reply to my post like it was directed at you

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LinkPizza
07/01/20 1:32:47 AM
#60:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Well yea, it's tax dollars.

Yeah. They paid into it, so they should be able to use it when they need to. If not, that would be like paying for insurance and saying you don't think they deserve it when they're in an accident cause by another person...
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wwinterj25
07/01/20 2:14:22 PM
#61:


Jen0125 posted...
Is it your business what they're doing?

My thoughts exactly.

BlackScythe0 posted...
Well yea, it's tax dollars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVBUt4DOQQ

BlackScythe0 posted...
I work at an essential business and did not get this "choice"

Tough shit. It's still none of your business what others do.

BlackScythe0 posted...
I didn't post anything that wasn't my business.

It's none of your business at all and you should back down as you're making yourself seem like a fool.

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Krazy_Kirby
07/01/20 2:56:55 PM
#62:


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adjl
07/02/20 2:57:50 PM
#63:


Zeus posted...
Pretty sure "half the country" wasn't at those BLM protests. Probably wasn't even 5% of the country, so that's a lame excuse.

Even you're not this obtuse, so I'm not going to dignify that with a serious response. Instead, here is a picture of a clown with a rabbit poorly photoshopped(/MS Painted) onto his left ear:

https://i.imgur.com/Nx8VBGp.png

Zeus posted...
Meanwhile the country has been shut down for months

On paper, sure, but American compliance with distancing recommendations and whatnot has been pretty poor, many states have been aggressively pushing to reopen stuff regardless of how safe it is to do so, and testing rates have never really gotten high enough to have a decent idea of exactly where all of the cases are. The shut down has been half-assed at best in most areas, and the results speak to that.

Zeus posted...
and, as we've seen from BLM protests, there's been literally no reason to shut it down at all since it's perfectly safe for the protests which have zero social distance and many people aren't even wearing cloth masks.

You're awfully fixated on this point. It seems to be really bothering you. Here are the facts, though:

  • Masks are significantly more common in these protests than you seem to believe, as is social distancing. Your perception of the protests has been heavily biased by what you've seen getting the most media attention, which is in turn heavily biased toward ones that turn violent (whether police or rioters started it) and are therefore too chaotic for measures to be maintained.
  • There's substantial overlap between the political demographics that are attending these protests and the political demographics that have been following public health recommendations up until this point. This means fewer protesters are going to be infected to begin with, limiting the risk of spread. Many would-be protesters also opted to stay home if they were at all symptomatic, which also limited potential spread.
  • The overwhelming majority of these protests took place outside, which generally helps to reduce the risk of transmission (faster dissipation of droplets, sunlight, faster evaporation).
  • These protests have come at a point when the country as a whole is loosening restrictions and many people are returning (far too fast) to life as usual, causing case numbers to climb across the board. The Memorial Day weekend in particular resulted in a sizable jump, and it's really just kept climbing since then. The side effect of that is that any surge in cases that has arisen from the protests is likely to be swallowed up by the background case numbers rising at a comparable rate and not appear to be particularly significant.
Among other reasons, these points mean that you cannot look solely at the direct results of the protests and say that they prove the pandemic was never a big deal and that our efforts to date haven't achieved anything. The public health recommendations given work. Dozens of other countries have followed them and seen exactly the results that epidemiologists have been saying they should (it's almost like people who devote their entire careers to studying the transmission of diseases know a thing or two about disease transmission). That a bunch of protests haven't single-handedly infected the entire country despite not following guidelines as closely as they should doesn't change that reality, nor does the fact that the US hasn't seen great results after barely pretending to follow said guidelines.

Yeah, the lockdown sucks. Nobody's having fun with this. But you're not going to make it better by trying to undermine the advice of public health officials and convince yourself and others that ignoring the problem is the way to solve it. That's just going to result in tens (if not hundreds) of thousands more dead people. If you want to fix it, listen to the doctors and start criticizing anyone else who doesn't.

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Zeus
07/03/20 6:27:55 AM
#64:


adjl posted...
On paper, sure, but American compliance with distancing recommendations and whatnot has been pretty poor, many states have been aggressively pushing to reopen stuff regardless of how safe it is to do so, and testing rates have never really gotten high enough to have a decent idea of exactly where all of the cases are. The shut down has been half-assed at best in most areas, and the results speak to that.

Bullshit.

adjl posted...
You're awfully fixated on this point. It seems to be really bothering you. Here are the facts, though:

Masks are significantly more common in these protests than you seem to believe, as is social distancing. Your perception of the protests has been heavily biased by what you've seen getting the most media attention, which is in turn heavily biased toward ones that turn violent (whether police or rioters started it) and are therefore too chaotic for measures to be maintained.

...and not the countless video of people marching shoulder-to-shoulder which, as you suggest, I'm sure is done intentionally by the protestors to make the movement look bigger. Honestly, there seems to be more social distancing and face masks at the riots, although I'm not sure the mask-wearing there has anything to do with COVID

adjl posted...
There's substantial overlap between the political demographics that are attending these protests and the political demographics that have been following public health recommendations up until this point. This means fewer protesters are going to be infected to begin with, limiting the risk of spread. Many would-be protesters also opted to stay home if they were at all symptomatic, which also limited potential spread.

Which is a laughable suggestion and ridiculous even at a surface level. The infection rates have repeatedly been noted as being highest among low-income Americans, the same group that's very likely to turn out at these protests. Oh, and you want to bring up demographics?

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/racial-ethnic-minorities.html

By the way, where are the biggest protests happening? Isn't it in places like NYC which *already* had the highest outbreak rates?

adjl posted...
The overwhelming majority of these protests took place outside, which generally helps to reduce the risk of transmission (faster dissipation of droplets, sunlight, faster evaporation).

And that might be a great excuse if they hadn't been promoting social distance even under those conditions (and even when wearing a mask) which, again, clearly not being observed.

adjl posted...
These protests have come at a point when the country as a whole is loosening restrictions and many people are returning (far too fast) to life as usual, causing case numbers to climb across the board. The Memorial Day weekend in particular resulted in a sizable jump, and it's really just kept climbing since then. The side effect of that is that any surge in cases that has arisen from the protests is likely to be swallowed up by the background case numbers rising at a comparable rate and not appear to be particularly significant.

Normal workers aren't going to get near the level of exposure that you would at a protest... well, unless they had to travel by or through the protests, which means that if the restrictions are legit, the protestors aren't just risking infection to themselves, but to innocent bystanders.

adjl posted...
Among other reasons, these points mean that you cannot look solely at the direct results of the protests and say that they prove the pandemic was never a big deal and that our efforts to date haven't achieved anything. The public health recommendations given work. Dozens of other countries have followed them and seen exactly the results that epidemiologists have been saying they should (it's almost like people who devote their entire careers to studying the transmission of diseases know a thing or two about disease transmission). That a bunch of protests haven't single-handedly infected the entire country despite not following guidelines as closely as they should doesn't change that reality, nor does the fact that the US hasn't seen great results after barely pretending to follow said guidelines.

No, I can look at the guidelines and see that they're not being enforced at all in some contexts which strongly suggests that the guidelines didn't mean shit in the first place because otherwise they would have been consistent. The outcome is window dressing. If you believe that something is actually a risk and that certain actions would be taken in light of that risk, those actions would be taken regardless. If you're arresting pastors and fining people for stopping in parks, you must view it as serious. However, if protests are being allowed, how seriously could have officially believed in these guidelines?

If you're claiming that partisanship is undermining safety, the blank check on the protests would be a perfect example. However, the way that these lockdowns have been handled really suggests that the guidelines haven't been meaningful in the first place and we've suffered for nothing. The lockdowns were bad, the fact that they're starting to seem like they were never necessary is worse. As it is, we've been locked down waaaaaaaay longer than other nations and we haven't seen any good result for the effort.

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SunWuKung420
07/03/20 10:58:49 AM
#65:


I know of several businesses having difficulty finding people willing to work because of covid unemployment. It's shameful.

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Aculo
07/03/20 11:07:07 AM
#66:


SunWuKung420 posted...
I know of several businesses having difficulty finding people willing to work because of covid unemployment. It's shameful.
it's almost like they don't want to catch a potentially deadly virus! but fuck them! fucking assholes trying to stay alive and healthy, ok?

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BlackScythe0
07/03/20 12:37:11 PM
#67:


Aculo posted...
it's almost like they don't want to catch a potentially deadly virus! but fuck them! fucking assholes trying to stay alive and healthy, ok?
Ffs
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adjl
07/03/20 1:05:30 PM
#68:


Zeus posted...
Bulls***.

You think Americans have done a good job of following guidelines? You really think that? You had people openly flaunting them in large numbers within a week of stuff shutting down. You have sizable chunks of the country convinced that the virus doesn't even exist, thanks to the guy who's supposed to be running the place. You have people staging armed rebellions over having to cut their own hair.

Nobody is surprised by how bad America's numbers look except people who have no idea what's going on.

Zeus posted...
Which is a laughable suggestion and ridiculous even at a surface level.

Not really. There's a clear left/right split on whether or not systemic racism and police brutality are bad things (which is honestly ridiculous, but that's beside the point), and there's a similarly clear left/right split on whether or not to listen to the government when it suggests something for personal/public safety (a split which is inherent in the fundamental political philosophies, in addition to being observable in the current situation). Sure, that's an oversimplification of some pretty complex demographics, but the basic correlation is there.

Zeus posted...
The infection rates have repeatedly been noted as being highest among low-income Americans, the same group that's very likely to turn out at these protests.

Low-income Americans have had the highest infection rates largely because they're the ones that haven't had the option of not working and a considerable majority of "essential" jobs are the entry-level minimum wage ones (which, incidentally, people are awfully fond of insisting are unnecessary and therefore don't deserve a livable minimum wage, but that's none of MY business...) that are filled primarily by lower-income people.

Those jobs are still happening. Lower-income people can't afford to protest because that would mean missing work, which is a luxury they don't have at the best of times. The people that are likely to turn out at these protests are the people that are able to afford time off work/are surviving just fine off of unemployment money, which, by extension, is a group that's been able to safely limit their exposure and stay healthy.

Zeus posted...
And that might be a great excuse if they hadn't been promoting social distance even under those conditions (and even when wearing a mask) which, again, clearly not being observed.

Lower risk isn't no risk. Distancing recommendations are still a good idea even while outside. The increase in risk from failing to obey them just isn't as great. I listed that as a factor that mitigates the risk, not nullifies it.

Zeus posted...
Normal workers aren't going to get near the level of exposure that you would at a protest...

Comparing one worker completing one day of work to one day of protesting? That's generally going to be correct. Comparing multiple days, weeks, or months of work over the millions of jobs in the country to one day of protesting? Significantly less so. Most public-facing jobs see hundreds of different people come through on a daily basis, indoors, sometimes for hours at a time, and have to get closer than the recommended distance in order to interact with them (to say nothing of handling cash). Over time, that's a level of exposure that's going to exceed what you'll get from a couple hours of hanging out in a crowd outdoors, even if that crowd is very large and not particularly compliant with recommendations. Reopening stuff is a long-term decision. You've gotta look beyond short-term comparisons like that to assess comparative risks.

Of course, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted there. I really don't know why you said what you did, but I'll rebut it anyway.

Zeus posted...
No, I can look at the guidelines and see that they're not being enforced at all in some contexts which strongly suggests that the guidelines didn't mean s*** in the first place because otherwise they would have been consistent.

No, that suggests that the extent to which guidelines are enforced depends on more than just the best available public health advice. Which, you know, everyone with half a brain already knew. It has never just been about public health. Politics, economics, and even other aspects of public health (e.g. public sanitation) have always factored into the decision. "Allowing" the protests (not that anything short of full-on bombing the streets could realistically have stopped them, given the scale) does not in any way suggest that there's no benefit in following guidelines, it suggests that "I'm sorry, please wait until the pandemic has resolved to be upset by widespread police brutality and corruption" would be political suicide.

Zeus posted...
If you're arresting pastors and fining people for stopping in parks, you must view it as serious. However, if protests are being allowed, how seriously could have officially believed in these guidelines?

Seriously enough to enforce them when the cost is something relatively trivial or easily replaced with a safer alternative. My own church has been doing services via Zoom since March. Alternatives exist to having people crowd into a physical church building, even if they aren't as nice as actually being there. Alternatives don't exist to publicly protesting a grave injustice.

Zeus posted...
As it is, we've been locked down waaaaaaaay longer than other nations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

Not remotely. The US was one of the last major countries to have Covid become enough of a problem to warrant large-scale action, and even then they were still slow to adopt proper lockdown measures. Countries that started fighting well before the US did are just now cautiously starting to reopen. Canada's lockdown period started shortly before the US' (though we didn't close the border to the US until a week or two after stopping other international travel, which was a mistake that I blame mostly on Trump's inability to not take such a closure personally and Trudeau wanting to avoid stepping on his toes), and we're just barely starting to relax restrictions in some places now (mostly the provinces that have been at 0 cases for a couple weeks).

The US started later than almost everyone else, was less compliant with protocols and worse about testing than almost everyone else, and now is trying to reopen faster and less cautiously than almost everyone else, and you're wondering why your results aren't as good as anyone else's? The US response compares favourably to Brazil's, but that's about it, and Brazil's run by an insane militaristic dictator who seems to want his country to burn. That's not really good company to keep.

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adjl
07/03/20 1:11:27 PM
#69:


SunWuKung420 posted...
I know of several businesses having difficulty finding people willing to work because of covid unemployment. It's shameful.

I mean, given the choice between risking their lives working for a wage that won't even cover their cost of living, or staying safely at home and having their cost of living paid for, is it really surprising that most people would choose the latter? I've seen the quote bounced around "If your employees make more on unemployment, you're not a job creator. You're a poverty exploiter," and while that's definitely an oversimplification, it's got a ring of truth to it. The current unemployment values were based on what people need to survive (albeit a blanket value that lacks the appropriate nuance for something so variable as CoL). If that's more than those businesses are paying their employees, then maybe those businesses don't deserve to have employees.

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Muscles
07/03/20 1:20:21 PM
#70:


adjl posted...
I've seen the quote bounced around "If your employees make more on unemployment, you're not a job creator. You're a poverty exploiter," and while that's definitely an oversimplification, it's got a ring of truth to it.
No one is making more without that extra 600 from the federal government. That extra 600 a week was a bad idea and is keeping people lazy, and don't bringing up people wanting to avoid the virus, I'm sure therev are some, but most people want to get money just to stay home and be lazy, I know many of them, some I work with and others I don't. One of my best friends who I work with said he wasn't answering because his mom doesn't want him to go back to work, but she's been back a month herself and he brings people over despite her not wanting people over, I know damn well he just doesn't want to go back to work

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wolfy42
07/03/20 1:33:30 PM
#71:


Muscles posted...
No one is making more without that extra 600 from the federal government. That extra 600 a week was a bad idea and is keeping people lazy, and don't bringing up people wanting to avoid the virus, I'm sure therev are some, but most people want to get money just to stay home and be lazy, I know many of them, some I work with and others I don't. One of my best friends who I work with said he wasn't answering because his mom doesn't want him to go back to work, but she's been back a month herself and he brings people over despite her not wanting people over, I know damn well he just doesn't want to go back to work


There are a few very legit reasons why people wouldn't want to go back to work right now...which sucks. I keep saying now is the time to try and get a better job (then you had) because so many people are not going back to work yet (of course if your not high risk).

First as the above posted mentioned unemployment through July is paying often double (or more) than the jobs people had before. It's highlighting how little people are being paid. The average wage is somewhere around $10 an hour or so, which (if you can actually get 40 hours), is only around $1k a month. That is pretty freaking low, even in places with a fairly low cost of living.

When giving a choice between working somewhere, having to wear a mask all the time, risk getting sick etc, for $1000 a month, or staying home and getting around $4000 a month, are you really shocked many people are taking the stay at home option?

I also agree that the extra $600 a week was crazy, not because people shouldn't get that much mind you, but because it shows how unfair things are normally.

If someone signed up for unemployment right at the start, around Feb 1st or so, they will have collected about 24k or so by the time the pua ends August 1st.

That doesn't seem much to me, even now when I'm retired and living on only $1000 a month or so, but to many people who have never had more than $1000 saved in their lives, it's huge. The numbers have shown people are not spending that money either, they are hoarding it. Who can blame them, it's crazy out there and nobody knows what the future holds.

They are in discussions for another relief check, and who knows what is going to happen with unemployment at this point with all the numbers surging so much.

Again the problem is how are you gonna convince people to go do the 40 something percent of jobs that pay almost nothing but are still very neccesary, if they have enough saved to pay their bills for the next year or so (already and that isn't counting any new relief packages/extended pua etc).

Perhaps they won't and companies will need to actually pay people a decent amount to do those freaking jobs finally, not because min wage has increased, but because they just can't find anyone who is willing to work for min wage anymore.

I don't think that is a bad thing, but, I'm not sure if the transition is going to go smoothly.

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adjl
07/03/20 1:54:31 PM
#72:


Muscles posted...
No one is making more without that extra 600 from the federal government. That extra 600 a week was a bad idea and is keeping people lazy

As I said, the exact numbers could really stand a little more nuance because of how variable cost of living is, but at the end of the day, the point of the extra money was to ensure that everyone had their basic needs covered such that they weren't faced with a choice between working and starvation at a point when working wasn't an option. In some areas, the extra $600 was way more than was needed, but the fundamental idea was sound. Now, working is an option, but when they don't have to choose between working and starvation, a lot of people don't want to go back to jobs they hate for pay that still doesn't do enough to stave off starvation. That's not unemployment paying too much, that's a sign that their jobs need to do better to make them actually want to work there.

In pretty much every UBI/minimum income experiment that's been run, people do end up working despite having their needs covered. Inherently, most people do like working and doing things with their lives. They just don't want to do things they don't like doing if they don't actually have to, so when the threat of starvation is off the table, they take the opportunity to find careers they actually enjoy instead of letting themselves be stuck in a job they only do because they need to pay rent.

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BlackScythe0
07/03/20 1:59:59 PM
#73:


wolfy42 posted...
There are a few very legit reasons why people wouldn't want to go back to work right now...which sucks. I keep saying now is the time to try and get a better job (then you had) because so many people are not going back to work yet (of course if your not high risk).

It's not going to be possible to believe the "legit" reasons are primary. Reality is a lot of people are getting paid 2-3 times what they would make working a part time job by staying home and they have no incentive to work.

When the government made people stop working the government had an obligation to the people. It's really hard to argue that what was given was appropriate. I'm a big supporter of unemployment but I've always felt the purpose of unemployment is to help you find a job not find the job, and definitely not be a more financially prudent answer than working like it currently is.

All the bull shit people keep spewing about "Oh it's just people trying to protect themselves!" is really annoying because it's nonsense.
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wolfy42
07/03/20 2:08:21 PM
#74:


BlackScythe0 posted...
It's not going to be possible to believe the "legit" reasons are primary. Reality is a lot of people are getting paid 2-3 times what they would make working a part time job by staying home and they have no incentive to work.

When the government made people stop working the government had an obligation to the people. It's really hard to argue that what was given was appropriate. I'm a big supporter of unemployment but I've always felt the purpose of unemployment is to help you find a job not find the job, and definitely not be a more financially prudent answer than working like it currently is.

All the bull shit people keep spewing about "Oh it's just people trying to protect themselves!" is really annoying because it's nonsense.


Heck man it's not even part time jobs but a large number of full time jobs as well.

So you got all these people saying "This is wrong, they shouldn't be giving that much, why would they go back to work".

Problem is, why should they have had to work for that little in the first place?

I'm a big supporter of profit sharing, you should give employes a percentage of the profit any buisiness makes that they work for. That would more than double most salaries right there, while reducing the end profit by about 5%.

When you look at the shear number of people living on around $1000 a month ($1000-$1500), it's crazy. So yeah, if you suddenly give em $4000 a month for staying home, your not gonna have them rushing to go back to that job again.

Was it a mistake to give $600 a week on top of normal unemployment, HELL YEAH, change needed to happen but that certainly wasn't the way to do it, nor was it the intended consequence expected.

But doing so, it's going to be hard to put that cat back in the bag, you have people that have never had any money left over at the end of the month their whole lives, who suddenly have freedom.

It's basically removing the shackles of wage slaves and then expecting them to put em back on again after awhile voluntarily. It's not very likely that is gonna happen.

Take mc D's for instance, 200k employees in the us, made a profit in 2019 of 60 billion. Take just 5% of that (3 billion and split it among every employee and you have an extra $15,000 per employee across the board from profit sharing. Meanwhile they would STILL have had a profit of 57 freaking billion dollars.

I 100% guarantee that 15k would have made a WAY bigger difference for the employees then it did for the rich smucks who got the extra 3 billion.

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LinkPizza
07/03/20 2:09:06 PM
#75:


Muscles posted...
No one is making more without that extra 600 from the federal government. That extra 600 a week was a bad idea and is keeping people lazy, and don't bringing up people wanting to avoid the virus, I'm sure therev are some, but most people want to get money just to stay home and be lazy, I know many of them, some I work with and others I don't.

Sure. But if my choices were go to work and make X amount, or stay home and make X+Y amount, I'm taking the latter. No work AND I'm making more for it. It makes sense. The less risk of catching the virus is like a bonus. Especially if you're in the susceptible group...

Muscles posted...
he wasn't answering because his mom doesn't want him to go back to work, but she's been back a month herself and he brings people over despite her not wanting people over, I know damn well he just doesn't want to go back to work

He probably doesn't, but it's also possible he's respecting his moms wishes, as well, right?
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adjl
07/03/20 2:19:03 PM
#76:


wolfy42 posted...
Heck man it's not even part time jobs but a large number of full time jobs as well.

So you got all these people saying "This is wrong, they shouldn't be giving that much, why would they go back to work".

Problem is, why should they have had to work for that little in the first place?

Pretty much. Hence the quote I gave. If the wages a business is paying are less than the emergency funds that are being given out to cover people's costs of living, then those wages were never covering the cost of living in the first place, and the business was simply exploiting the fact that their employees would have completely starved without the pittance they were being given.

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ChaosAzeroth
07/03/20 4:51:53 PM
#77:


My sister is getting unemployment and is chomping at the bit to go back to work. She's legit going stir crazy.

There was a lack of available jobs around here before the pandemic, it's basically impossible right now.

There are people who want to work, but be it safety or lack of availability, they can't.

Sure, there's always going to be people taking advantage of anything. But that doesn't mean that it's not warranted to provide help, or that most people do.
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Zeus
07/06/20 12:07:33 AM
#78:


adjl posted...


You think Americans have done a good job of following guidelines? You really think that? You had people openly flaunting them in large numbers within a week of stuff shutting down. You have sizable chunks of the country convinced that the virus doesn't even exist, thanks to the guy who's supposed to be running the place. You have people staging armed rebellions over having to cut their own hair.

"Large numbers"? The protests shown by the media were maybe dozens of people. Compare that to the hundreds who showed for BLM protests which, in some cities, went up to thousands.

adjl posted...
Low-income Americans have had the highest infection rates largely because they're the ones that haven't had the option of not working and a considerable majority of "essential" jobs are the entry-level minimum wage ones (which, incidentally, people are awfully fond of insisting are unnecessary and therefore don't deserve a livable minimum wage, but that's none of MY business...) that are filled primarily by lower-income people.

First off, by your own admission, a lot of the people getting more today than they made at their job are low-income Americans. Demographics are demographics. Second, a lot of high-income jobs are also essential. In the most obvious case, doctors are at the front lines of the disease and they make far more than most Americans (the same can be true of nurses, depending on the specialty).

And a lot of low-skilled laborers are unnecessary, just as a lot of workers are unnecessary. However, that's not the argument for low pay -- the fact that they're paid little is because they don't have skills and the work isn't worth much. You might need somebody for a job, but that doesn't automatically make them valuable to that job, especially when you could hire any number of people off the street who could do it just as well. And minimum wage is more than the value of the work in many cases.

However, a lot of low-income Americans aren't low-income earners, they're no-income earners who are receiving checks from the government.

adjl posted...
Those jobs are still happening. Lower-income people can't afford to protest because that would mean missing work, which is a luxury they don't have at the best of times. The people that are likely to turn out at these protests are the people that are able to afford time off work/are surviving just fine off of unemployment money, which, by extension, is a group that's been able to safely limit their exposure and stay healthy.

...except for the fact that a lot of low-income people are being paid not to work. Most low-income jobs are, like all other jobs, closed still due to the lockdowns or businesses not being able to afford workers (which also comes back to minimum wage being worth more than the actual labor). And pretty much every protest has countless low-income Americans, both traditional low-earners as well as no-earners.

adjl posted...
No, that suggests that the extent to which guidelines are enforced depends on more than just the best available public health advice. Which, you know, everyone with half a brain already knew. It has never just been about public health. Politics, economics, and even other aspects of public health (e.g. public sanitation) have always factored into the decision. "Allowing" the protests (not that anything short of full-on bombing the streets could realistically have stopped them, given the scale) does not in any way suggest that there's no benefit in following guidelines, it suggests that "I'm sorry, please wait until the pandemic has resolved to be upset by widespread police brutality and corruption" would be political suicide.

Except it literally does that. If the guidelines actually meant shit, they'd be enforced. The fact that they're not enforced suggests that it was likely a farce all along.

adjl posted...
Seriously enough to enforce them when the cost is something relatively trivial or easily replaced with a safer alternative. My own church has been doing services via Zoom since March. Alternatives exist to having people crowd into a physical church building, even if they aren't as nice as actually being there. Alternatives don't exist to publicly protesting a grave injustice.

And you could easily protest without taking to the streets, be it posting propaganda, using social media, writing letters, etc.


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Zeus
07/06/20 12:10:53 AM
#79:


adjl posted...
Not remotely. The US was one of the last major countries to have Covid become enough of a problem to warrant large-scale action, and even then they were still slow to adopt proper lockdown measures. Countries that started fighting well before the US did are just now cautiously starting to reopen. Canada's lockdown period started shortly before the US' (though we didn't close the border to the US until a week or two after stopping other international travel, which was a mistake that I blame mostly on Trump's inability to not take such a closure personally and Trudeau wanting to avoid stepping on his toes), and we're just barely starting to relax restrictions in some places now (mostly the provinces that have been at 0 cases for a couple weeks).

The US started later than almost everyone else, was less compliant with protocols and worse about testing than almost everyone else, and now is trying to reopen faster and less cautiously than almost everyone else, and you're wondering why your results aren't as good as anyone else's? The US response compares favourably to Brazil's, but that's about it, and Brazil's run by an insane militaristic dictator who seems to want his country to burn. That's not really good company to keep.

We might have shut down later, but we shut down longer than a lot of other places and harder than some major nations. And our re-opening has been tame compared to even liberal nations.

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FrndNhbrHdCEman
07/10/20 1:07:44 AM
#80:


Zangulus posted...
Zeus once again having absolutely zero cognitive understanding of reality? Say it isn't so!
Which works since Zeus is unemployed. He mustve really screwed up when he worked for the Department of Defense. Remember when he touted that yall?

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wolfy42
07/10/20 9:16:52 AM
#81:


FrndNhbrHdCEman posted...
Which works since Zeus is unemployed. He mustve really screwed up when he worked for the Department of Defense. Remember when he touted that yall?


How does everyone on this board know if people are employed, what their jobs are, how many cats they have, what kind of food they have for breakfast and what size dump they take?

It's pretty strange.

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SunWuKung420
07/10/20 9:42:40 AM
#82:


wolfy42 posted...
How does everyone on this board know if people are employed, what their jobs are, how many cats they have, what kind of food they have for breakfast and what size dump they take?

It's pretty strange.

One person makes an assumption, 3 others keep saying it as if it's true, then it gets reported on by faux news.

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LinkPizza
07/10/20 10:55:05 AM
#83:


wolfy42 posted...
How does everyone on this board know if people are employed, what their jobs are, how many cats they have, what kind of food they have for breakfast and what size dump they take?

It's pretty strange.

Sometimes, people mention it...
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Zeus
07/10/20 3:22:33 PM
#84:


SunWuKung420 posted...
One person makes an assumption, 3 others keep saying it as if it's true, then it gets reported on by faux news.

It's not even an assumption in most cases, it's generally either a troll attempt or a flame. Then the people who repeat it are usually just trying to get in on the abuse and generally know it's not true. Eventually it gets repeated enough that some mark who doesn't know it's trolling actually believes it.

LinkPizza posted...
Sometimes, people mention it...

The professional puppy petter has been open about it, but I think pretty much everybody I've been told is unemployed I only really have the word of unscrupulous people backing it up. The worst is the fucking trolls who target me. There are times when I've been working 60-70 hours a week and they were still peddling that crap. It's just one of many bizarre harassment attempts that they try, which is why I have a lot of them ignored or blocked (especially since the mods haven't even stepped in when it came to death threats in the past).

Generally speaking, I don't trust what anybody says about anybody else on this board.

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Joker_X_II
07/10/20 3:48:12 PM
#85:


Muscles posted...
isn't that unemployment fraud?

In Canada, yes.....

If the government ever found out that you had the option to gain employment and you willing choose not to accept it, they could cut you off the pogey.

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Mead
07/10/20 3:49:20 PM
#86:


Ill take lazy people over contagious people any day of the week

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adjl
07/10/20 4:55:46 PM
#87:


Zeus posted...
"Large numbers"? The protests shown by the media were maybe dozens of people.

I struggle to believe that your insistence on looking strictly at protests and ignoring every other instance of people ignoring protocols is anything other than you being deliberately disingenuous. Have you really forgotten Spring Break?

Zeus posted...
Second, a lot of high-income jobs are also essential.

For in-person, public-facing labour (read: the actual high-risk stuff)? Considerably fewer than the low-income ones. That list pretty much consists of health care workers and not much else. Most higher-income essential work can be done from home, and the stuff that can't often doesn't require interaction with many people outside of coworkers (relatively low-risk interactions, given that it's a consistent group of people). Even when it is public-facing and in-person work, high-income jobs are also generally going to be better about supplying PPE and installing engineering controls to reduce the risk to workers than the corporate giants that employ most minimum-wage essential workers. Toss in the number of corporate giants that have leveraged their assets to count themselves as essential (e.g. GameStop), who generally don't pay their employees very well, and you've got a sizable majority of "essential" jobs being pretty low-paying.

Zeus posted...
You might need somebody for a job, but that doesn't automatically make them valuable to that job, especially when you could hire any number of people off the street who could do it just as well. And minimum wage is more than the value of the work in many cases.

If you need to employ somebody to do a job, you need to pay them enough to eat and pay rent. This is no different from using a vehicle: If you need a car to complete a task, you can't complete that task without putting enough gas into it to drive to the necessary destination, and expecting the car to run on less gas than that just because you really need to get where you're going is delusional. The entitlement of business owners who want to be able to pay a sub-living wage for jobs they need done is utterly abhorrent, especially when that decision is coming from corporations that have more than enough assets to do so comfortably. That smaller businesses often can't afford to pay livable wages doesn't mean a sub-living minimum wage is okay, it means your entire economy is FUBAR.

Zeus posted...
Except it literally does that. If the guidelines actually meant s***, they'd be enforced. The fact that they're not enforced suggests that it was likely a farce all along.

... You really do think that public health is the only factor that's being considered in enforcing these guidelines, don't you? Here I thought you were just being narrow-minded and not considering alternatives, but you really do steadfastly believe that there's no other possible explanation?

Zeus posted...
And you could easily protest without taking to the streets, be it posting propaganda, using social media, writing letters, etc.

Yeah, that sounds effective enough to be a realistic alternative. Never mind that people have been doing literally all of those things pretty consistently for as long as BLM has been around and very little has changed, which is a major reason why the whole issue has reached such a breaking point as to result in these protests, I'm sure it'll totally work this time.

Zeus posted...
We might have shut down later, but we shut down longer than a lot of other places and harder than some major nations. And our re-opening has been tame compared to even liberal nations.

Most countries haven't ended their shutdown yet. It's temporally impossible for the US to have shut down later than those countries and also have been shut down for longer because time is linear. I don't know what kind of weird time travel nonsense you're imagining here.

And no, your reopening has not been tame, given the number of instances of bars, restaurants, beaches, and other such places being crowded with people as soon as the government suggested it might not be illegal to do so anymore. That's not how you control an airborne pandemic. That's how you trigger a second wave (technically the first wave would have to end first to count this as a second wave, but whatever), especially when that happens well before case numbers are actually low enough to justify relaxing so much. Yes, some other countries have similarly failed to be suitably cautious in their reopening. Many of them are suffering a second wave as a result. Others haven't, because they waited until case numbers reached safe levels before reopening so aggressively.

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wolfy42
07/10/20 6:06:16 PM
#88:


Wait, did someone mention time travel? I'm always down for a discussion about that!!!

There will probably be no "second wave" in the US as it looks like we will naturally extend the first wave till the second one would have started. The question then actually becomes if the virus is/will mutate, and people can get it more than once.

If that is the case we could be looking at a very bad situation until a vaccine has been made (and hopefully it works for multiple strands and isn't like the flu).

The original estimation was for the virus to have mostly dissipated by July (and it has in most of the world), allowing people a small window before the fall (september/october) when it would return more than likely.

Currently though we are experiencing the largest number of cases per day in the US, and are heading towards the largest # of deaths as well (Which will probably continue to get worse as average time till death is 3 weeks after getting the virus and the high number of new cases are only a a week or so old at this point).

To add to the confusion and misery, fall and winter are the traditional flu seasons as well, and flu symptoms are very close to the virus, which could easily cause panic, force people to isolate completely (no shopping etc) or force them to go to the hospital/get tested which can put them at risk of actually getting the virus if they already don't have it.

The only real solution honestly if for a very severe (more then we have in the past) stay at home, where nobody goes out unless absolutely neccesary (which is what I have done for about 6 freaking months at this point), and those who do, social distance, wear masks and wash their hands/use disinfactant etc before touching their mouths/face etc.

To not do so with the current numbers in the US right now is crazy. I hate to be overly political on here, there are people who feel strongly about our president one way or the other, but Trump basically ignoring the virus and having rallys etc, is insane and very dangerous. It can easily cost thousands of americans their lives and many more to get sick and have long term damage.

I sure as heck wanna get out of my freaking basement and go out while it's sunny/nice and there is plenty of daylight. I'm dead tired of staying at home, I'm all alone, and the only way I interact with friends/family is through zoom or my phone. It's been 6 months for me due to having pneumonia, and if this keeps up, it'll be the equivalent of sending me to freaking mars solo, in a ship (I think it takes 2 years, but it's gonna feel like that soon).

Even so, going out now is basically making all the previous sacrifice worthless. I know it's hard, but (at least in the US) we need to freaking stay at home and kill this virus like much of the rest of the world has done.

IF people do that, we can maybe end this in a month or two, if they don't, it could easily be 6+ months or more before any type of normal life returns. Sadly it's probably going to be longer for people who are high risk like me, even if we did drop the numbers drastically it would be pretty crazy for me to go out much in the next month or two, and then we would probably have another wave.

This, sadly, is life for many of us in the near future. I hate jails, I hate putting people or animals in cages. But right now, although we can make them fairly comfortable, and we have netflix/games/books etc to entertain ourselves, we pretty much have to do the responsible thing and jail ourselves until this is over:(

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FrndNhbrHdCEman
07/12/20 12:01:03 AM
#89:


wolfy42 posted...
How does everyone on this board know if people are employed, what their jobs are, how many cats they have, what kind of food they have for breakfast and what size dump they take?

It's pretty strange.
He literally told us and bragged about the job in a post. This is why people save shit here. People like Zeus get busted and say lolproveit. Figured you were smarter than buying into Zeus wolfy.

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