Poll of the Day > 7 ways we know systemic racism is real. Statistical proof and lots of sources

(+) Yeah! (+)

Seriously, lots of sources. Click some links through out the article and read up. Theres no shortage material here.

https://www.benjerry.com/whats-new/2016/systemic-racism-is-real

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Ok? I think everyone knows that at this point, whether they admit it or not

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You mean this the fact that high-scoring Asians are discriminated against in college admissions? Or that the US has an entire set of laws to ensure that quotas are met? Because those are very well-documented.

Other allegations are largely bullshit.

ZBug_ posted...

https://www.benjerry.com/

LOL!

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Zeus posted...

LOL!

It doesnt matter who writes the article if they got the sources to back it up. Which they do.

I knew some troll would try to act like the article is suddenly demerited because of the name.
I guess alll of the sources are lol too right?

Also Ben Cohen And Jerry Greenfield are known activists and philanthropists so an article like this coming from them isnt surprising.
but yes, lol at philanthropy.

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Zeus posted...

Other allegations are largely bullshit.

[citation needed]
Because theres a lot of evidence to say systemic racism is real. Very little agrees with your claim that its bullshit

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Muscles posted...

Ok? I think everyone knows that at this point, whether they admit it or not

Except Zeus apparently. He must live in an alternate reality.

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60 years of affirmative action, preference in hiring and college admissions, no child left behind, school bussing, Black Mayors, City Councils and Police Chiefs, and we end up with what?.

Huh?

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https://i.imgur.com/pFl7tgJ.gif

https://i.imgur.com/CScq080.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics


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Ok, let's look at the list

1: Wealth
Will soft-disagree because their premise is flawed. The reason white families have so much money is due to inheritance... some families have money that goes back hundreds of years. If you look at non-dynastic wealth it's more even. I mean, Jeff Bezos is white - and he's practically HALF the chart

2: Employment

Will agree. However, their reasoning is kinda silly - resume performance? airbnb reviews? What if the people they are talking about actually legit suck and it's all a coincidence?

Either way, I hate when things go "and one study showed", that's like - you can't really peer review a "one study", there should have been hundreds of studies by now

3: Education

I think this directly stems from the previous 2, you need money to educate which leads to money...

But...

> consider that while black children constitute 18% of preschoolers nationwide, they make up nearly 50% of suspensions.

Umm, who's suspending preschoolers? And why is preschool being used as a metric for post-secondary success?

EDIT: Another problem is that American's fund schools via property taxes - meaning poor areas have worse schools, this is a gross mishandling of funds and y'all should change it so that all schools are divied up equally from the total property tax pool.

4: Criminal Justice

This I will hard agree with; and it's really all Ronald Reagans fault - but this page makes it sound like Black people are more likely to be criminals, which isn't good.

5: Housing

Same as money... it's all money

6: Surveillance

Can't really comment 'cuz it's another "One Study" quote, and I live in a free nation. Also much like the prison one, this one AT FACE VALUE makes it look like black dudes are more likely to be criminals in the first place which we both know isn't true

7: Healthcare

You're america, and once again... money

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Zeus posted...

https://i.imgur.com/pFl7tgJ.gif

https://i.imgur.com/CScq080.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

Okay so all the evidence is lies. All the deferent sources are all also lying.
and the only one not lying you, and your source is trust me guys.

got it

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Lokarin posted...

but this page makes it sound like Black people are more likely to be criminals, which isn't good.

It's no surprise that people who are poorer, regardless of race or ethnicity, will be more likely to turn to crime. When you don't have the means to pursue a decent job through traditional means, high risk/high reward activity becomes more attractive. Compoundedy parents not having the same understanding of how to go about saving for or assisting kids with pursuing education beyond high school (because the parents never did, nor did their parents' parents)... Things add up.

Not to mention, biased criminal representation can be (partially) a product of unequal enforcement.

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Clench281 posted...

It's no surprise that people who are poorer, regardless of race or ethnicity, will be more likely to turn to crime. When you don't have the means to pursue a decent job through traditional means, high risk/high reward activity becomes more attractive. Compoundedy parents not having the same understanding of how to go about saving for or assisting kids with pursuing education beyond high school (because the parents never did, nor did their parents' parents)... Things add up.

Not to mention, biased criminal representation can be (partially) a product of unequal enforcement.

Thing is, I want TC to be right - a systemic problem CAN be fixed; but it's impossible to fix a person's personal biases.

That's why I need high quality evidence.

So far, the main cause I back is the GI Bill Reparations, since because soldiers are on the registry - the million or so black soldiers who were denied GI Bill compensation can be tracked and reimbursed... We have the names, we just need to do it.

And by we I mean y'all - I'm Canadian.

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Fun fact time. The dairies that supply Ben and Jerry's use illegal immigrants as labor (to save money). When a group of them marched down to the B&J HQ to protest working conditions the corporate offices called ICE and had them all deported.

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Lokarin posted...

And by we I mean y'all - I'm Canadian.

Reparations and forgiveness to First Nations People in Canada when?

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Everyone knows that people that totally arent racist get upset and defensive when its pointed out that racism exists


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KnoxKorner posted...

Fun fact time. The dairies that supply Ben and Jerry's use illegal immigrants as labor (to save money). When a group of them marched down to the B&J HQ to protest working conditions the corporate offices called ICE and had them all deported.

How many people marched and how many were deported?

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WEALTH - There is a limited amount of resources and different individual choices will lead to different individual outcomes.

EMPLOYMENT - Same as wealth, limited amount of paying jobs and different individual qualifications. Additionally, "blacks with college degree are twice as likely to be unemployed as all other graduates." This says nothing about what degree they hold, how in demand that degree is, and whether they meet other job qualifications.

EDUCATION - There's quite a bit to unpack in this one.

_ "black children constitute 18% of preschoolers nationwide"
This sound like an issue with black parents not enrolling their children.

_ "black students are three times more likely to be suspended than white students, even when their infractions are similar."
This could be explained by repeat offenses. Even if a single incident is similar it's possible that for one student it is just a single incident but for another student it's one of many incidents.
Also what is the scope of this study? Is it suspensions for one school or across many? Different schools will be more or less lenient depending on the resources they have.

_ "And once black children are in the criminal justice system, they are 18 times more likely than white children to be sentenced as adults."
Notice this isn't referencing similar infractions any more. This leaves open the possibility that they are sentence according to the severity of the infraction itself.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE - Everything stated here can be explained if repeat offenders are more well known to law enforcement and get longer sentences than first time offenders.

HOUSING - The previous items just implied that minorities are poorly educated, can't find work, and have a tendency toward criminal activity. It's rather expected that they wouldn't have nice homes.

SURVEILLANCE - I think this comes down to geography. The previous one suggested minorities are more likely to live in bad neighborhoods. Places where law enforcement would be on alert. I expect compensating for economic class would remove any racial disparity in this statistic.

HEALTHCARE - Similarities with surveillance. I think this can also be explained by geography and economic class.

Essentially this article ignores alternate explanations in order to support the argument they want to make which leaves it open to be easily refuted.

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@SKARDAVNELNATE

this is the shit Im talking about when I mention your posting history on this board

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Mead posted...

@SKARDAVNELNATE

this is the shit Im talking about when I mention your posting history on this board

@Mead
Could you elaborate? What is it you don't like about my post?

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KnoxKorner posted...

Reparations and forgiveness to First Nations People in Canada when?

Been working on it, my cousin is a First nations liason

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Could you elaborate? What is it you don't like about my post?

it just seems like youre really going out of your way too be defensive and pushback against anything like what is in this topic

You really think every point being made is just wrong and theres no systemic racial unfairness in the country that could be made better?

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Work in a primarily black/Hispanic school and tell me there arent very glaring problems with the system.

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Im not reading an article on racial inequity by people that make ice cream

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Mead posted...

it just seems like youre really going out of your way too be defensive and pushback against anything like what is in this topic

I suppose I could just say that I disagree with the article because it's stupid. But I prefer to point out the flaws it has. Unless the ideas presented are challenged we can't determine the strength or weakness of the argument. Just as with no one to refute my arguments I'm left to assume they are logically sound. Since there are people that would use this article to argue that some demographics are not as capable, deserving of special treatment, or owed some sort of compensation I find it very pressing to refute it and refine my own arguments against it.

Mead posted...

You really think every point being made is just wrong and theres no systemic racial unfairness in the country that could be made better?

I think there are individual people making isolated decisions. As this article is presented it reeks of trying to convince people that a boogeyman exists without actual proof of a boogeyman being responsible for what they claim. If there are individual cases of racism then point to that. It would be a far stronger position than assuming that most people are being racist all the time without realizing it. Point to a person responsible, don't just heap responsibility on people who are not involved.

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Saying that systemic racism is ultimately at fault is an attack on the principle of personal responsibility

no it isnt

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Mead posted...

no it isnt

Could you elaborate on why you think this is a weak argument?

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Could you elaborate on why you think this is a weak argument?

theres just way too many variables in everyones experience in life

the idea that just being responsible enough is the sole reason that some folks succeed and other groups have worse outcomes because they just didnt try hard enough is not only overly simplistic but also insulting

its as if youre suggesting that some minority groups are just innately less responsible than others

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Do yall suppose if I was black I'd get pulled over for a broken reflector light on my car?? I've had it for years.

Mead posted...

theres just way too many variables in everyones experience in life

Agreed. I think race is a minor variable and other variable have a more significant influence.

Mead posted...

just being responsible enough is the sole reason

Of course there are circumstance outside of ones control. One issue I raised was how "in demand" a degree is. The individual shows responsibility by getting a degree. But circumstances out of their control could be a shift in the job market. Something that was in demand when they enrolled in their course might not be by the time time they graduate.

Mead posted...

its as if youre suggesting that some minority groups are just innately less responsible than others

The article is focused on minority status but a few times I mentioned economic class as an alternate explanation. I think if anyone is put in similar circumstances they are going to have a difficult time improving their quality of life regardless of their race or how others treat them; good or bad.

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Smarkil posted...

Im not reading an article on racial inequity by people that make ice cream

Then read it from the dozen different sources they link to

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ZBug_ posted...

Then read it from the dozen different sources they link to

5 different sources, and weak sources of "One Study Shows", which is the lowest form of evidence... literally, it's the "counts as" of evidence.

You need stronger sources.

In the meantime, please support the GI Bill Reparations Act

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https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/the-dubious-math-behind-stop-and-frisk/278065/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4133127/#!po=0.485437

(Normally I wouldnt link to wikipedia however its worth check out the References. Theres 300+ references, are they all weak too?)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6

i just dont understand how you you can naysay all of this. Theyre ALL just lying?

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ZBug_ posted...

Theyre ALL just lying?

Not at all, the wikipedia is a lot stronger than the ben&jerry site... it will take a while to look through them all

Plus I agreed with you on police prejudice

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Well. for 400 years Black people have been yelling loudly about racism and no one White listened. At the end of the Civil War around the time of Reconstruction, Black people were saying something about racism. During the last half of the 19th century and during all of the 20th century and now the 21st century, Black people have been telling us about racism and each and every time they have, White people have swept ot under a rug.

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The only solution is systemic guilt.

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Veedrock- posted...

The only solution is systemic guilt.

Thats not even true. I think a lot of white people do feel guilty and thats why they become defensive. But thats not the goal.

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More evidence that racism doesnt exist

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/18/nypd-misconduct-body-cameras-marijuana/

the guy that got put in the hospital and found guilty of possessing drugs that the cop planted in his car should have just had more personal responsibility @SKARDAVNELNATE

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Mead posted...

More evidence that racism doesnt exist

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/18/nypd-misconduct-body-cameras-marijuana/

the guy that got put in the hospital and found guilty of possessing drugs that the cop planted in his car should have just had more personal responsibility @SKARDAVNELNATE

If a cop was caught planting evidence they should have been court martial, likely found guilty, and then dishonourably discharged

Oh, they aren't a military..

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Lokarin posted...

If a cop was caught planting evidence they should have been court martial, likely found guilty, and then dishonourably discharged

Oh, they aren't a military..

a cop that does that belongs in prison for a long time

hes literally ruining innocent lives

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Mead posted...

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/18/nypd-misconduct-body-cameras-marijuana/

the guy that got put in the hospital and found guilty of possessing drugs that the cop planted in his car should have just had more personal responsibility @SKARDAVNELNATE

Except that's not my position at all. The article seems to show an attitude of "this is just how things are done" that prevents anyone involved from personal accountability. Assuming that systemic racism is the cause takes the blame off of the individual cops. If planting evidence is what is expected of them then it's no longer misconduct and becomes part of the job description. That should not be allowed. Their actions should be viewed on an individual basis and not permitted to be indicative of anyone else.

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