Poll of the Day > Honour Killing

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zebatov
05/27/20 8:49:29 PM
#1:


https://www.dailywire.com/news/iranian-father-beheads-13-year-old-daughter-in-honor-killing

Just passing through, dropping links. I have nothing to say about the link itself. Can be fact-checked.

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ReggieTheReckless
05/27/20 9:22:20 PM
#3:


omg but it's their cullltureeee

nah jk, turn the desert into glass plz
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Zeus
05/27/20 9:33:03 PM
#4:


The one thing I'm confused about is that supposedly it was a legal, consensual marriage (since apparently the marriage age there is 13) so I'm not sure by what right the father was able to reclaim his daughter in the first place. The original Daily Mail story it links to -- as the source of the claim -- doesn't elaborate either.

At any rate, apparently the father faces up to 10 years for the murder.

Her dad cut her head off in her sleep.

There was no-one to save her

Not for nothing, but if somebody is being attacked in their sleep, there usually isn't going to be anybody to save them.

zebatov posted...
Just passing through, dropping links. I have nothing to say about the link itself. Can be fact-checked.

Well, it's the Daily Wire so it's agenda-driven. That's Ben Shapiro's media.

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VeeVees
05/27/20 9:39:42 PM
#5:


religion of peace

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Cacciato
05/27/20 9:41:25 PM
#6:


Zeus posted...
apparently the face faces up to 10 years for the murder
Interesting.
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adjl
05/27/20 9:42:57 PM
#7:


Zeus posted...
At any rate, apparently the face faces up to 10 years for the murder.

At least it's something, though obviously not enough for a straightforward case of first-degree murder.

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Zeus
05/27/20 9:58:57 PM
#8:


adjl posted...
At least it's something, though obviously not enough for a straightforward case of first-degree murder.

I know that you get your idea of justice from Hammurabi and Draco, but 10 years for murder isn't unreasonably short.

Cacciato posted... Interesting.

Well, I imagine the rest of the body will go to prison with it.

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zebatov
05/28/20 12:18:50 AM
#9:


Zeus posted...
Well, it's the Daily Wire so it's agenda-driven. That's Ben Shapiro's media.
Thats why I said it can be fact-checked. I posted the link I found because it doesnt matter what you link to, someones going to say something about it. So search it up yourselves. It happened.

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ParanoidObsessive
05/28/20 12:41:21 AM
#10:


Zeus posted...
I know that you get your idea of justice from Hammurabi and Draco

Nah - if you were going by Draco or Hammurabi, they should just slit the dude's throat and throw his corpse in a ditch somewhere. Unless he's rich, of course, in which case we just get him to pay a fine and then everything's fine.

Or we could go with other traditional tribal laws and custom, and just have someone else murder the guy in retaliation, because vendettas are perfectly acceptable (except in situations where Blood Price and Blood Debt apply).



but 10 years for murder isn't unreasonably short

It honestly is, because of how the legal system works (at least in the US). Unless there's a specific "no chance of parole" clause, a 10-year sentence can result in someone being out in less than a year (parole is generally 1 month served per year sentenced).

But also notice the article doesn't say 10 years. It says between 3-10 years. So unless he gets the max sentence, it could easily be bordering on a slap on the wrist.

But even 10 years is going to seem like too little time when you're dealing with a premeditated murder in cold blood. Moreso when you're dealing with prison systems that focus more on incarceration than reform - there's a very strong perception that the person coming out is just as bad (if not worse) than they were when they went in, meaning maybe they shouldn't come out at all. Especially since, as people will point out, it's not like their victim gets to come back to life in 10 years - they're dead for good. So there's always a perception that "the punishment should fit the crime", even if there's a competing assumption that punishment shouldn't be "cruel or unusual" or "excessive".
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Lokarin
05/28/20 12:44:29 AM
#11:


10 years for murder
67 years for dishonor (80-13, ballpark number of life expectancy)

....seem equal?


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Zeus
05/28/20 6:50:00 AM
#12:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Nah - if you were going by Draco or Hammurabi, they should just slit the dude's throat and throw his corpse in a ditch somewhere.



...which is the kind of justice people on this board are often into.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
It honestly is, because of how the legal system works (at least in the US). Unless there's a specific "no chance of parole" clause, a 10-year sentence can result in someone being out in less than a year (parole is generally 1 month served per year sentenced).

I like that you're bringing up US law in relation to an Iranian crime. More importantly, in the US or anywhere else how often does a 10-year sentence result in a year of actual prison? And also importantly there's a pretty massive point of diminishing returns when it comes to punitive measures like prison.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
But also notice the article doesn't say 10 years. It says between 3-10 years. So unless he gets the max sentence, it could easily be bordering on a slap on the wrist.

And notice that my post said "up to 10 years"

ParanoidObsessive posted...
But even 10 years is going to seem like too little time when you're dealing with a premeditated murder in cold blood. Moreso when you're dealing with prison systems that focus more on incarceration than reform - there's a very strong perception that the person coming out is just as bad (if not worse) than they were when they went in, meaning maybe they shouldn't come out at all. Especially since, as people will point out, it's not like their victim gets to come back to life in 10 years - they're dead for good. So there's always a perception that "the punishment should fit the crime", even if there's a competing assumption that punishment shouldn't be "cruel or unusual" or "excessive".

Which once again comes back to the glaring issue of diminishing returns when it comes to punitive measures like prison. You'll see people on the internet bitching that even 20 years isn't a long enough sentence, despite the fact that in many of those cases the complainant isn't even 20 years old -- with none of those years being spent in prison -- so they have no real comprehension of how long that actually is. If everybody who advocates or doles out sentences were made to spend a full month in prison, sentencing in this nation would likely decrease in duration by three-quarters.

Devoid of context, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, or 100 are all just numbers. And whether they're in there for 5 months or 5 decades, no amount of punishing them is going to bring back the dead. That just leaves punishment, reformation and deterrence. Because murder is emotional rather than rational, a draconian sentence is an ineffective deterrent (which is one reason why the death penalty hasn't deterred murder). That leaves us with punishment and reformation. Reformation doesn't rely on a time frame, so that just leaves punishment. And while I think 10 years is more than enough, I haven't spent even spent a day in prison and I suspect that my conception of "more than enough" is probably three times longer than necessary.

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mooreandrew58
05/28/20 3:31:33 PM
#13:


Zeus posted...
I like that you're bringing up US law in relation to an Iranian crime. More importantly, in the US or anywhere else how often does a 10-year sentence result in a year of actual prison? And also importantly there's a pretty massive point of diminishing returns when it comes to punitive measures like prison

I work with a guy that feels prison should be as rough as possible but the sentences should be drastically shorter. His logic is they'll be grateful they survived even just two years of it and never wanna come back.

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Zeus
05/28/20 6:52:06 PM
#14:


mooreandrew58 posted...
I work with a guy that feels prison should be as rough as possible but the sentences should be drastically shorter. His logic is they'll be grateful they survived even just two years of it and never wanna come back.

Personally, I feel that a lot of criminality should be treated as a mental illness and addressed as such. Rehabilitation needs to go a lot further than just skills-training and trying to actively engage them in society so they don't re-offend because there are underlying issues driving a lot of that criminal behavior. Granted, unless we take steps to mitigate some of the largest drivers of criminality -- including alcohol abuse and improving the overall culture -- not only will people slide back into old habits, but we'll also have more people offending in the first place.

And if we had a proper system in place, sentencing for a lot of crimes might only require a tiny fraction of the time used now while generating a far greater result so society would lose far less productivity.

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Blightzkrieg
05/28/20 7:24:22 PM
#15:


zebatov posted...
https://www.dailywire.com/news/iranian-father-beheads-13-year-old-daughter-in-honor-killing

Just passing through, dropping links. I have nothing to say about the link itself. Can be fact-checked.
when you have to reach to the other side of the fucking globe to justify your own racism lmao

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Zeus
05/28/20 7:32:04 PM
#16:


Blightzkrieg posted...
when you have to reach to the other side of the fucking globe to justify your own racism lmao

Not for nothing, but at most you could only accuse him of religious discrimination since it's not a matter of race... then again, you're heavily bigoted against religion so it wouldn't carry much weight.

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Blightzkrieg
05/28/20 7:33:25 PM
#17:


Zeus posted...
then again, you're heavily bigoted against religion
lmao what

you got multiple accounts banned for racism xD ;3

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Zeus
05/28/20 8:03:48 PM
#18:


Blightzkrieg posted...
lmao what

Well, you are.

Blightzkrieg posted...
you got multiple accounts banned for racism xD ;3

I've had zero banned for racism, although I've had one banned for calling somebody out for being racist.

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peanutt121
05/28/20 8:25:12 PM
#19:


This happens way to often and pressure needs to be brought to bear on these countries that allow it. I get culture differences but this goes way beyond that. If she was my relative the bastard would die by my hand if not punished by the law.

It made me sick to my stomach to read that story.

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Blightzkrieg
05/28/20 8:35:33 PM
#20:


Zeus posted...
Well, you are.
I point to the zero accounts I've had banned for bigotry, your move comrade. Fire up those alts.

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Revelation34
05/28/20 8:38:41 PM
#21:


Zeus posted...


I know that you get your idea of justice from Hammurabi and Draco, but 10 years for murder isn't unreasonably short.

Well, I imagine the rest of the body will go to prison with it.


Murder should be life in prison.
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mooreandrew58
05/28/20 8:54:20 PM
#22:


Revelation34 posted...
Murder should be life in prison.

Think it depends. Cold blooded pre meditated murder? Yeah. Someone who killed in the heat of the moment for reasons some people might find understandable? Nah they have hope of being rehabiltated.

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zebatov
05/29/20 12:20:38 AM
#23:


Blightzkrieg posted...
when you have to reach to the other side of the fucking globe to justify your own racism lmao
No? Your non-point might actually mean something if it wasn't a post about a Muslim who killed a Muslim. Nice try.

And you can't get banned, suspended or warned for "bigotry". Best brush-up on your definitions. Probably don't use words when you don't know what they mean.

Revelation34 posted...
Murder should be life in prison.
Yeah and "life" should be "life".

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Cacciato
05/29/20 12:33:43 AM
#24:


zebatov posted...
And you can't get banned, suspended or warned for "bigotry".
Youd definitely be the one to know, considering all your warnings.
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zebatov
05/29/20 12:35:05 AM
#25:


Cacciato posted...
Youd definitely be the one to know, considering all your warnings.
I can't remember any legitimate one, and most of them are from 261, so you know how that goes. People over there are afraid of facts. And it's as easy as looking up the definition. Nothing to do with experience.

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Kyuubi4269
05/29/20 12:42:49 AM
#26:


This is what the death sentence is for, remove people who are too far gone from acceptable society post-childhood.
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Zeus
05/29/20 6:08:34 AM
#27:


Blightzkrieg posted...
I point to the zero accounts I've had banned for bigotry, your move comrade. Fire up those alts.

I point to your zero tolerance for religion and bring up my zero interest in the accounts you've had banned, which pairs nicely with my zero interest in your life which largely results from your zero charisma. All of that is topped off by your zero talent for trolling which brings us to my pity responses, which is the only something here.

Revelation34 posted...


Murder should be life in prison.

That would be stupid and counterproductive.

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Revelation34
05/29/20 3:46:43 PM
#28:


zebatov posted...

Yeah and "life" should be "life".


Life without parole.

Zeus posted...
That would be stupid and counterproductive.


Citation needed.
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Blightzkrieg
05/29/20 6:16:31 PM
#29:


Zeus posted...
I point to your zero tolerance for religion and bring up my zero interest in the accounts you've had banned, which pairs nicely with my zero interest in your life which largely results from your zero charisma. All of that is topped off by your zero talent for trolling which brings us to my pity responses, which is the only something here.
weird how you need fifty accounts with fifty thousand karma to express your zero opinions

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Sarcasthma
05/29/20 9:49:47 PM
#30:


Blightzkrieg posted...
weird how you need fifty accounts with fifty thousand karma to express your zero opinions
lmao

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Zeus
06/01/20 6:12:53 PM
#31:


Blightzkrieg posted...
weird how you need fifty accounts with fifty thousand karma to express your zero opinions

Weird how you bitch about multiple accounts when you use more accounts on PotD than I do. And weird that you think my former alts which mostly had under 300 or 400 karma were "high-karma." Granted, you get into trouble so much you probably think 200 karma is a lot of karma.

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adjl
06/01/20 8:02:51 PM
#32:


Zeus posted...
Personally, I feel that a lot of criminality should be treated as a mental illness and addressed as such. Rehabilitation needs to go a lot further than just skills-training and trying to actively engage them in society so they don't re-offend because there are underlying issues driving a lot of that criminal behavior.

I quite agree, but until prison sentences are structured that way and society gets over its collective vengeance boner, 10 years is still a very short sentence for first-degree murder. That prison as a whole ought to be reformed doesn't mean a sentence that's too short to adequately protect society or be a real deterrent is okay while prison is still being used as a deterrent/isolation tool.

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zebatov
06/01/20 8:39:00 PM
#33:


adjl posted...
gets over its collective vengeance boner
Good luck. I watch true crime shows often, and the family of the victim(s) almost always just wants justice, even if the guy on trial isnt the one who did it.

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Blightzkrieg
06/02/20 4:14:18 PM
#34:


Zeus posted...
Weird how you bitch about multiple accounts when you use more accounts on PotD than I do. And weird that you think my former alts which mostly had under 300 or 400 karma were "high-karma." Granted, you get into trouble so much you probably think 200 karma is a lot of karma.
Dude we all saw your alts go down and pop up like bowling pins, despite you lying for months about not having any don't try to blow this my way because I have different accounts for my phone and PC.

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Zeus
06/03/20 4:04:38 PM
#35:


Blightzkrieg posted...
Dude we all saw your alts go down and pop up like bowling pins, despite you lying for months about not having any don't try to blow this my way because I have different accounts for my phone and PC.

Which means that you use one more account on PotD than I do which is two more accounts on PotD than you should be using.

adjl posted... I quite agree, but until prison sentences are structured that way and society gets over its collective vengeance boner, 10 years is still a very short sentence for first-degree murder. That prison as a whole ought to be reformed doesn't mean a sentence that's too short to adequately protect society or be a real deterrent is okay while prison is still being used as a deterrent/isolation tool.

That's not really an excuse. We already know that long sentences aren't a deterrent so that claim goes out the window. And if the argument is, "A culture isn't ready for it because this is how we've always done things!", how do you expect anything to change?

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Zikten
06/03/20 4:26:08 PM
#36:


honor killings piss me off so much. its so disgusting. any man that kills his own daughter is not a real man. he's a piece of shit. fuck his honor.

this shit happens in the US too sometimes. right now one of the men on the FBI's top 10 most wanted is a guy that killed his 2 daughters and then vanished. he might have left the country. it makes me angry to think about him
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Blightzkrieg
06/03/20 4:32:14 PM
#37:


Zeus posted...
Which means that you use one more account on PotD than I do
This is like, a Trump tier lie

Literally nobody on Earth buys this

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