Current Events > The univ. of california system will be getting rid of the SAT/ACT requirement

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JebronLames
05/23/20 10:36:35 AM
#1:


soon? Do you think this is a good idea? you think more colleges should follow this lead?

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SH_expert44
05/23/20 10:37:36 AM
#2:


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JebronLames
05/23/20 10:39:58 AM
#3:


iirc it was because many people thought it was discrimanatory, to minorities etc.........

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boxington
05/23/20 10:40:09 AM
#4:


SH_expert44 posted...
Why?

Instead, the UC system which includes about 280,000 students across the University of California, Los Angeles, the University of California, Berkeley, and seven other undergraduate schools will focus on creating its own test "that better aligns with the content the University expects students to have mastered for college readiness" and its values, according to a news release

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/21/university-california-sat-act-admissions-requirements/5241427002/

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COVxy
05/23/20 10:42:52 AM
#5:


I think most things that determine admissions tend to be tainted by SES.

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JebronLames
05/23/20 10:43:12 AM
#6:


ses?

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COVxy
05/23/20 10:44:42 AM
#7:


Socioeconomic status.

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Phantom36
05/23/20 10:44:57 AM
#8:


and its values

Hmmm.... maybe a stretch, but kind of implies "We want to make sure our students conform to our way of thinking and form less of their own opinions."

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JebronLames
05/23/20 10:45:56 AM
#9:


i have read before that when studies were done that sat score did tend to predict college success better than even their high school gpa, grades etc......

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TheMikh
05/23/20 10:50:06 AM
#10:


JebronLames posted...
i have read before that when studies were done that sat score did tend to predict college success better than even their high school gpa, grades etc......
sat is basically g-factor measurement by another name

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JebronLames
05/23/20 10:51:06 AM
#11:


g factor? what is that?

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Squall28
05/23/20 10:51:26 AM
#12:


Sounds like a lowkey way to discriminate against Asians again. Remember when Harvard was saying they were choosing based on "personality" when they got called out. Yeah, I'm sure those rich kids had a really big personality (wallet).

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Vyrulisse
05/23/20 10:51:46 AM
#13:


JebronLames posted...
iirc it was because many people thought it was discrimanatory, to minorities etc.........
Can somebody please explain to me how this is even possible? It's a test... study and learn the fuckin' material.

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COVxy
05/23/20 10:52:17 AM
#14:


JebronLames posted...
g factor? what is that?

What IQ is supposed to measure. Important to note that when you take into account SES and education, IQ predicts pretty much nothing.

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Squall28
05/23/20 10:52:55 AM
#15:


JebronLames posted...
i have read before that when studies were done that sat score did tend to predict college success better than even their high school gpa, grades etc......

Because schools had varying difficulties. It's why some schools think standardized testing is the hardest thing ever, and others think they're a complete joke.

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JebronLames
05/23/20 2:30:28 PM
#16:


bumpiss

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Payzmaykr
05/23/20 2:39:28 PM
#17:


There are no standards for education now. Its common to read stories of teachers getting fired for giving a kid an F instead of just changing it to a D-. The grading scale is so easy now that you would pretty much have to try not to make an A.

Ive talked to highschool students in my city and theyve told me that they can literally come and go as they please. No punishment for not showing up. Then they try to spend tax dollars on computer toys to put in the classroom to try to get them to show up.

I honestly think that the school systems receive way too much money.
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COVxy
05/23/20 2:42:45 PM
#18:


Payzmaykr posted...
There are no standards for education now. Its common to read stories of teachers getting fired for giving a kid an F instead of just changing it to a D-. The grading scale is so easy now that you would pretty much have to try not to make an A.

Ive talked to highschool students in my city and theyve told me that they can literally come and go as they please. No punishment for not showing up. Then they try to spend tax dollars on computer toys to put in the classroom to try to get them to show up.

I honestly think that the school systems receive way too much money.

Your brain may be broken.

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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 3:01:28 PM
#19:


TheMikh posted...
sat is basically g-factor measurement by another name
No, it isn't. Academic achievement tests and cognitive tests are two very different things.

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Butterfiles
05/23/20 3:04:55 PM
#20:


https://www.businessinsider.com/grade-inflation-us-high-schools-2017-7
When the team analyzed the data, they found grade inflation was most prevalent in wealthier, white schools and private schools. Private schools, in fact, had cases of grade inflation at three times the rate of public schools.

sure, the SAT isn't great, but...it's better than GPA because you have absolutely no sense about a student did at school A to get a 4.0 vs what the student at school B did to get a 4.0

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COVxy
05/23/20 3:05:00 PM
#21:


IronChef_Kirby posted...
No, it isn't. Academic achievement tests and cognitive tests are two very different things.

IQ and SAT scores correlate, though not in a way that an average person would call strongly.

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DarkRoast
05/23/20 3:05:49 PM
#22:


JebronLames posted...
iirc it was because many people thought it was discrimanatory, to minorities etc.........

As opposed to grades which are easily inflated by rich people sending their kids to private schools

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NinjaBreakfast
05/23/20 3:06:09 PM
#23:


Butterfiles posted...
Private schools, in fact, had cases of grade inflation at three times the rate of public schools.
Well duh

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lilORANG
05/23/20 3:06:40 PM
#24:


Butterfiles posted...
https://www.businessinsider.com/grade-inflation-us-high-schools-2017-7

sure, the SAT isn't great, but...it's better than GPA because you have absolutely no sense about a student did at school A to get a 4.0 vs what the student at school B did to get a 4.0


Or at some schools that give kids a 5.0 some fucking how.
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SapphireClassic
05/23/20 3:09:34 PM
#25:


It makes sense, it allows for more students to take on mortgage size loans for whatever useless degree they want.

The big fish win.
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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 3:20:24 PM
#26:


COVxy posted...
IQ and SAT scores correlate, though not in a way that an average person would call strongly.
I would expect them to generally correlate, but it was not accurate for TheMikh to claim that the SAT is "basically a g-factor measurement," because it's looking at entirely different constructs. An IQ score comprises one's levels of functioning across cognitive areas, while the SAT only measures their levels of functioning in reading, writing, and math.

There are a number of different variables that can account for one's performance on the SAT. One of the higher-IQ students I've assessed did horribly on standardized math tests - despite having Gc, Gf, and Gv scores within the High Average range - simply because his whole life, he had gotten away with sneakily using a calculator during his math classes and thus never committed basic math facts to memory. If the SAT was interpreted as a measure of IQ, it would paint an inaccurate picture of his IQ compared to... actual IQ testing.

But I'm just your average school psychologist, so what do I know?

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COVxy
05/23/20 3:24:55 PM
#27:


IronChef_Kirby posted...
An IQ score comprises one's levels of functioning across cognitive areas, while the SAT only measures their levels of functioning in reading, writing, and math.

IQ was developed to tap into the g-factor, which was the common factor found across school grades in different subjects. It would be incredibly surprising if they didn't at least partially tap into the same construct, given that they were essentially constructed for similar purposes.

He's not totally off the mark here.

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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 3:34:03 PM
#28:


COVxy posted...
IQ was developed to tap into the g-factor, which was the common factor found across school grades in different subjects. It would be incredibly surprising if they didn't at least partially tap into the same construct, given that they were essentially constructed for similar purposes.

He's not totally off the mark here.
IQ testing has come a long way in the hundred-plus years it's been around. Like I said, there is generally a correlation between IQ and academic achievement, but they are two completely different constructs.

If I was tasked with doing a cognitive assessment but I just threw an SAT at the student instead and said "well, back in the early 1900s this would have seemed like a great idea," suffice it to say any competent advocate would clap my cheeks in that IEP meeting, lol

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JACKBUTTMOMMY
05/23/20 3:35:31 PM
#29:


I dont see why not. I never took them and am in the middle of my second masters.
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COVxy
05/23/20 3:40:43 PM
#30:


Modern IQ tests are still designed to tap into g-factor. That hasn't changed.

Also, cognitive assessment seems like a very deceptive way to talk about IQ assessments. Typically people use cognitive assessment to refer to cognitive batteries, like the NIH toolbox and things like that. Assessing things like working memory capacity, attentional switching cost, long term memory, perceptual detection, motor control, etc...

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Anteaterking
05/23/20 3:44:51 PM
#31:


Phantom36 posted...
Hmmm.... maybe a stretch, but kind of implies "We want to make sure our students conform to our way of thinking and form less of their own opinions."

Yeah if I know anything about the SAT/ACT it's how much prepping for them helped people form their own opinions.

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The_Ivory_Man
05/23/20 3:50:36 PM
#32:


Why would creating three standardized tests help simplify anything?
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Bio1590
05/23/20 3:55:19 PM
#33:


Why even have testing at all
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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 3:56:19 PM
#34:


COVxy posted...
Modern IQ tests are still designed to tap into g-factor. That hasn't changed.
Yes. Which is completely different from academic achievement tests, as I explained above and you have not addressed.

COVxy posted...
Also, cognitive assessment is a very deceptive way to talk about IQ assessments. Typically people use cognitive assessment to refer to cognitive batteries, like the NIH toolbox and things like that. Assessing things like working memory capacity, attentional switching cost, long term memory, perceptual detection, motor control, etc...
There's nothing deceptive about it; like I explained above, "An IQ score comprises one's levels of functioning across cognitive areas." That is exactly what a cognitive battery does. What are you even attempting to argue at this point?

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SapphireClassic
05/23/20 3:56:31 PM
#35:


Bio1590 posted...
Why even have testing at all
.
I know, everyone is special.
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COVxy
05/23/20 3:59:57 PM
#36:


IronChef_Kirby posted...
Yes. Which is completely different from academic achievement tests, as I explained above and you have not addressed.

G-factor is the common factor of achievement across school subjects. You don't think that academic achievement tests tap into this?

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The_Ivory_Man
05/23/20 4:02:34 PM
#37:


Bio1590 posted...
Why even have testing at all

I think a standardized test is a better metric than just if a school district gave a good grade when the grading there could be wildly different.
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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 4:05:57 PM
#38:


COVxy posted...
G-factor is the common factor of achievement across school subjects. You don't think that academic achievement tests tap into this?
I've already explained this to you.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/78713039/939600265

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COVxy
05/23/20 4:12:58 PM
#39:


IronChef_Kirby posted...
I've already explained this to you.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/78713039/939600265

Your "explanation" doesn't address the point here. Both measures were designed to tap into the same thing, educational achievement.

Which is probably why more education leads to higher IQ.

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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 4:18:37 PM
#40:


COVxy posted...
Your "explanation" doesn't address the point here. Both measures were designed to tap into the same thing, educational achievement.

Which is probably why more education leads to higher IQ.
Intelligence is about more than just academic achievement. If they were the same thing, cognitive batteries would just be bombardments of math, reading, and writing tasks.

But they aren't. You already said that there isn't even a strong correlation between IQ and SAT scores in post 21, so I don't see why you're now trying to act like they're so similar.

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COVxy
05/23/20 9:06:08 PM
#41:


IronChef_Kirby posted...
Intelligence is about more than just academic achievement. If they were the same thing, cognitive batteries would just be bombardments of math, reading, and writing tasks.

I can measure the dimensions of an object and run some calculations, or I can drop it in a vat of water and measure the displacement. Both reflect the same thing, volume, even though they are being measured in different ways.

IronChef_Kirby posted...
You already said that there isn't even a strong correlation between IQ and SAT scores in post 21, so I don't see why you're now trying to act like they're so similar.

I said that the correlation wouldn't be stiking to an average person. Like, there's no chance someone would look at the plot and say "if I know your SAT, then I have a good idea of your IQ." It's about as high as IQ correlations go though.

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s0nicfan
05/23/20 9:14:04 PM
#42:


They're not getting rid of the SAT because they think standardized test scores are bad. They're getting rid of it because College Board, the company that manages the SAT, has a yearly revenue of over a billion dollars and they want a piece of that sweet pie.

Anyone who thinks that whatever homebrew test the UC system comes up with is going to be better than company whose entire purpose is to refine the same test year after year for almost 100 years now is out of their mind. It's all about the money.

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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 9:34:25 PM
#43:


COVxy posted...
I can measure the dimensions of an object and run some calculations, or I can drop it in a vat of water and measure the displacement. Both reflect the same thing, volume, even though they are being measured in different ways.
Youre literally defending a conceptualization of intelligence from the early 1900s in lieu of our modern understanding. Youve also yet again failed to address the issue with conflating IQ with academic achievement I presented in post post 26, and are instead spinning your wheels reiterating your flawed understanding of IQ. There is a reason why a psychoeducational evaluation includes both a cognitive assessment and an academic assessment instead of just doing an academic assessment and calling it a day. There is a reason why a cognitive battery that composes an IQ score does not consist of math, reading, and writing tasks.

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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 9:36:01 PM
#44:


COVxy posted...
I said that the correlation wouldn't be stiking to an average person. Like, there's no chance someone would look at the plot and say "if I know your SAT, then I have a good idea of your IQ." It's about as high as IQ correlations go though.
I agree that there is a correlation, I just posted ITT to clear up the misunderstanding that theyre basically the same thing. Its not that simple.

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COVxy
05/23/20 9:42:56 PM
#45:


IronChef_Kirby posted...
I agree that there is a correlation, I just posted ITT to clear up the misunderstanding that theyre basically the same thing. Its not that simple.

And all I'm saying is that they are likely correlated because they likely tap into the same constructs, at least partially! Which makes complete sense because that is what they were designed to do.

You are arguing that they are correlated for a different reason?

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puppy
05/23/20 9:44:18 PM
#46:


So now we purposefully want to fall behind the rest of the world?

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HiddenRoar
05/23/20 9:45:58 PM
#47:


Bio1590 posted...
Why even have testing at all

Schools are physical spaces, so seating is limited.
You don't want your 4-year graduation rates to drop in % because people drop out/take longer than 4.
To ensure that incoming students can actually read/do basic math (otherwise, look at college athlete cheating scandals but now possibly applied to the entire student body)

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IronChef_Kirby
05/23/20 9:55:56 PM
#48:


COVxy posted...
And all I'm saying is that they are likely correlated because they likely tap into the same constructs, at least partially! Which makes complete sense because that is what they were designed to do.

You are arguing that they are correlated for a different reason?
likely
at least partially

Well, if you wanna couch it in weasel words, I dont think anyone can disagree.

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COVxy
05/23/20 10:18:51 PM
#49:


"Weasel words" are how you need to couch evidence in the realm of science, not to mention this particular area of psychology.

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Bio1590
05/23/20 10:22:55 PM
#50:


HiddenRoar posted...


Schools are physical spaces, so seating is limited.
You don't want your 4-year graduation rates to drop in % because people drop out/take longer than 4.
To ensure that incoming students can actually read/do basic math (otherwise, look at college athlete cheating scandals but now possibly applied to the entire student body)


Canada has no nation-wide standardized testing to get into universities and is completely fine.

Also the obsession with graduating in 4 years is nuts, but given how ridiculously expensive education is in the US I also understand wanting to take as little time as possible.
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