Board 8 > Is there a New Noble 9 for Games?

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Yesmar_
05/21/20 10:08:12 PM
#1:


Ocarina of Time
Breath of the Wild
Link to the Past
Chrono Trigger
Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow
Final Fantasy VII
Super Mario 64
Super Mario World
Super Mario Bros. 3

Does anyone take any other game to beat any of these? Even consider it?

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pepper2012
05/21/20 10:10:47 PM
#2:


Majoras mask

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_SecretSquirrel
05/21/20 10:11:31 PM
#3:


Melee? FF6? Majora?

There's definitely some games right on their tails.

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Paratroopa1
05/21/20 10:12:05 PM
#4:


no, there isn't
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Grimlyn
05/21/20 10:13:07 PM
#5:


there isn't even a Noble 9 for characters anymore :/

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MoogleKupo141
05/21/20 10:13:37 PM
#6:


some of these games lost to Undertale which would invalidate them based on how the original noble 9 was defined
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LordoftheMorons
05/21/20 10:13:47 PM
#7:


Hard to know exactly how strong BotW is compared to the others, but probably

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LiquidOshawott
05/21/20 10:15:21 PM
#8:


Link to the Past
Ocarina of Time
Majoras Mask
The Wind Waker
Twilight Princess
Links Awakening
Zelda 1 NES
Breath of the Wild
Wand of Gamelon

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AxemRedRanger
05/21/20 10:21:41 PM
#9:


Mario 3 might not belong here. Undertale spillover effects aside, it still didnt look all that good against RBY even in the power hour and Id think RBY would have the better Europe vote. Plus it gets its face absolutely smashed by Mario World every single time weve had a 2D Mario poll in recent years - and Mario World is probably the next weakest game in this batch, unless Breath of the Wild disappoints.

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MithosLowell
05/21/20 10:44:10 PM
#10:


Majoras Mask isn't top 9 anymore. Theres no Noble 9. But a Top 9..

I would say today in no order

OoT
FFVII
Chrono Trigger
Super Mario 64
Breath of the Wild
Pokemon RBY
Super Mario World
Smash Melee*
Link to the Past

*This is probably peak Melee and not 2015 Rallied Melee. We still don't know how strong this game is. You could probably replace it with a bunch of other games.

Melee is a bit of a Dark Horse. Wedon't really know how strong it is.

I wouldn't put Majora in a Top 9 anymore.

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MithosLowell
05/21/20 10:45:10 PM
#11:


AxemRedRanger posted...
Mario 3 might not belong here. Undertale spillover effects aside, it still didnt look all that good against RBY even in the power hour and Id think RBY would have the better Europe vote. Plus it gets its face absolutely smashed by Mario World every single time weve had a 2D Mario poll in recent years - and Mario World is probably the next weakest game in this batch, unless Breath of the Wild disappoints.

I agree with this. SMB2 is easily the strongest NES game but thats not saying much. World is considerably stronger now and Mario 64 crushes both.
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Prestnun
05/21/20 10:51:27 PM
#12:


Is this 2002 again?
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HaruOkumura
05/21/20 10:57:41 PM
#13:


Grimlyn posted...
there isn't even a Noble 9 for characters anymore :/

the Noble Nine is a legacy title

and no, there's never been a Noble Nine for games, and it certainly couldn't be based on anything other than 2004, even if there was, so get R/B/Y and BotW out of there

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MetalmindStats
05/21/20 11:53:29 PM
#14:


I don't think there's even nine games that are a step above all the rest, let alone any list that approaches the Noble Nine as the term was defined in its heyday. If you insist on designating nine in particular regardless, you should have either FF6 or Melee on there instead of Mario 3, depending on your stance on major rallies.

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LeonhartFour
05/21/20 11:56:02 PM
#15:


MoogleKupo141 posted...
some of these games lost to Undertale which would invalidate them based on how the original noble 9 was defined

in fact all of those games have lost to something outside of that group except for LttP (which has only lost to FFVII, OoT, and CT) and BotW, which hasn't been in a full Games Contest yet

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transcience
05/22/20 12:27:32 AM
#16:


Id drop the 2d Marios from there and maybe add FF6. Id probably leave BOTW out until it proves it in a contest too, but it probably belongs.

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banananor
05/22/20 12:30:29 AM
#17:


We could probably do the "math" and calculate whether a noble X exists for games

The original noble 9 was created by the smallest set of otherwise undefeated characters

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TheCodeisBosco
05/22/20 12:52:05 AM
#18:


Anyone else think Pokemon RBY is going to be a noticeable step down down from its peak moving forward? I love RBY to death, but there's definitely more going against it these days. I feel like dwindling votals/casual site traffic will do it no favors, and the online discussion about Gen I just seems to get more and more negative with each passing year. (And I'm not just talking about Smogon types bashing "genwunners," either.) Plus, GameFAQs is so dismissive towards Pokemon in its current state that none of the new generations from the 2010s even made this last contest.

If the next contest had RBY going up against Majora or FFVI, I'd take either of those two as an upset special. RBY should still be the favorite in those matchups, of course, but those two games would totally have a shot at victory IMO.

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MetalmindStats
05/22/20 12:56:43 AM
#19:


banananor posted...
We could probably do the "math" and calculate whether a noble X exists for games

The original noble 9 was created by the smallest set of otherwise undefeated characters
For the most part, that would just be a list of GotD 2 games that weren't in previous contests. Otherwise, I don't think it's possible to make a grouping with fewer than 20 games thanks to the likes of San Andreas bloating up Undertale's indirect chain through its GotD 2 loss.

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_SecretSquirrel
05/22/20 5:47:50 AM
#20:


TheCodeisBosco posted...
Anyone else think Pokemon RBY is going to be a noticeable step down down from its peak moving forward? I love RBY to death, but there's definitely more going against it these days. I feel like dwindling votals/casual site traffic will do it no favors, and the online discussion about Gen I just seems to get more and more negative with each passing year. (And I'm not just talking about Smogon types bashing "genwunners," either.) Plus, GameFAQs is so dismissive towards Pokemon in its current state that none of the new generations from the 2010s even made this last contest.

If the next contest had RBY going up against Majora or FFVI, I'd take either of those two as an upset special. RBY should still be the favorite in those matchups, of course, but those two games would totally have a shot at victory IMO.
There's a decent chance there's been some RBY decline, but I wouldn't go very far with it. Pikachu still had a great showing in 2018 going toe to to with Mega Man twice, and the rest still did alright considering there was no chance they were going to live up to their 2013 selves.

Also, the Mega Man vs. Pikachu matches points to less casual voters possibly helping Pokemon, since the match that Pikachu won was the one that had less casual votes due to the break. It's not much of a sample, but my rationale for a Pokemon drop has less to do with casual voters, and more that things like Pokemon GO and Sword/Shield are in our rear-view mirror, and I don't know if there's much of anything on the horizon right now for Pokemon fans.

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ctesjbuvf
05/22/20 6:07:24 AM
#21:


The opening post nailed this one imo.

Final Fantasy VI keeps being brought up, but I wouldn't think it got close to anything there and it has no real place in this topic. Only barely beating Wind Waker is not top 9 material. Majora's Mask is worth brining up but probably falls short. The ALttP match is weird and you probably shouldn't take much from a match featuring two games from the same franchise.

The 2D Mario's are a bit underrated. Don't let their poor bracket placement fool you last time. SMB3 being just a step below RBY pre-rallies last time was a really good showing. Would likely put them above SM64.

Not expecting a RBY decline at all. The gen I hate around the internet (which is stupid to begin with) isn't getting worse. It hit as low as it could a while ago. How we're dimissive towards current state Pokemon wont hurt RBY at all, if anything, just strengthen it. This isn't much different from last time. Dexit or whatever s*** newer games pull wont make a difference when GameFAQs we were never going to care about anything recent Pokemon regardless of how good they were.

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tennisboy213
05/22/20 7:35:09 AM
#22:


Yesmar_ posted...
Ocarina of Time
Breath of the Wild
Link to the Past
Chrono Trigger
Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow
Final Fantasy VII
Super Mario 64
Super Mario World
Super Mario Bros. 3

I like this, even if they aren't very far ahead of games #10+ if at all.

3 Zeldas
3 JRPGs
3 Marios

And this is just the top 8 from 2015's adjusted x-stats + BotW.

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squexa
05/22/20 8:39:27 AM
#23:


I still have my doubts about BotW, but this list looks mostly accurate.

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LinkMarioSamus
05/22/20 8:55:07 AM
#24:


FFVI vs. Majora's Mask who wins?

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squexa
05/22/20 9:02:22 AM
#25:


I'd take FFVI with ~52%. I have a hard time seeing SM > FFVI.

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Prestnun
05/22/20 9:02:57 AM
#26:


LinkMarioSamus posted...
FFVI vs. Majora's Mask who wins?

A game that was in the original 2004 games contest versus A Zelda game that is overshadowded by Ocarina Of Time.

I think you know my pick. :3

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OrangeCrush980
05/22/20 9:19:11 AM
#27:


Undertale
Octopath Traveler
Shovel Knight
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

Aw damn, that doesn't work...
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Leonhart4
05/22/20 9:37:37 AM
#28:


R/B/Y is the only game other than OoT that has a realistic shot of winning a Game of the '90s contest.

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banananor
05/22/20 9:52:09 AM
#29:


MetalmindStats posted...
For the most part, that would just be a list of GotD 2 games that weren't in previous contests. Otherwise, I don't think it's possible to make a grouping with fewer than 20 games thanks to the likes of San Andreas bloating up Undertale's indirect chain through its GotD 2 loss.
Yeah, oops, I completely forgot about Untertale

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LinkMarioSamus
05/22/20 9:55:15 AM
#30:


squexa posted...
I'd take FFVI with ~52%. I have a hard time seeing SM > FFVI.

I asked mostly because FFVI did worse against Wind Waker in 2015 than Majora's Mask did in 2010. However, pretty much everyone agrees that Wind Waker boosted between contests so that's moot I suppose.

Thing is, if you hold Majora's Mask, Metal Gear Solid 3, and Shadow of the Colossus all constant between 2010 and 2015, Super Mario Galaxy vs. Metal Gear Solid 1 becomes a debatable match. Something about that just does not sound right at all.

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Leonhart4
05/22/20 10:05:09 AM
#31:


For the record, the Noble Nine was just the final eight of 2003 plus Crono (which was basically Mario's equal and most people thought he got jobbed out of that win anyway).

The fact that the concept has endured up to this point is a testament to the characters. Look at the vote total chart transience posted in his contest trivia topic. Those 9 characters have accumulated more votes than everyone else in contest history by a very wide margin.

The concept just doesn't exist in games because we don't have them often enough, and Undertale or Melee beat almost all of those games in 2015. You can't just throw Melee in there to fix that because it lost to FFX in 2009.

I just don't think you can come up with a list of 9 games that will only lose to each other, partly because there just isn't as much of a separation from the rest of the field and we've seen a much bigger shift over time in games than characters. The Noble Nine are still among the top 10-15 most popular characters at worst.

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squexa
05/22/20 10:11:47 AM
#32:


LinkMarioSamus posted...
I asked mostly because FFVI did worse against Wind Waker in 2015 than Majora's Mask did in 2010. However, pretty much everyone agrees that Wind Waker boosted between contests so that's moot I suppose.

Thing is, if you hold Majora's Mask, Metal Gear Solid 3, and Shadow of the Colossus all constant between 2010 and 2015, Super Mario Galaxy vs. Metal Gear Solid 1 becomes a debatable match. Something about that just does not sound right at all.

WW probably boosted and MM vs WW is a pure 3D Zelda SFF match, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that.

Projecting through 2010 MGS3/SotC is a bad idea since SotC likely got a 2004 Starcraft style bandwagon, which probably messed up the stats in that whole division.

Leonhart4 posted...
R/B/Y is the only game other than OoT that has a realistic shot of winning a Game of the '90s contest.

CT has a shot at winning as well, since I'm not expecting rallies to be a big presence in a 90s game contest.

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Leonhart4
05/22/20 10:19:11 AM
#33:


I don't expect 2020 CT to be as strong as 2015 CT, unfortunately. That was lightning in a bottle and Melee broke the bottle because its fanbase can't handle people not thinking it's the best.

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LinkMarioSamus
05/22/20 10:51:45 AM
#34:


Oh sorry I forgot to mention I adjusted SOTC down to ~44% on MGS3, since that's what it's projected to get on it in 2015. Oops.

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ertyu0078
05/22/20 11:12:46 AM
#35:


i beat some of those games

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transience
05/22/20 11:46:57 AM
#36:


if memory serves, we had a "super six" or "super seven" back in the day, which was FF7, OOT, CT, LTTP, Mario 3, Melee and, if you wanted to include it, FF6. that obviously doesn't hold up with RBY becoming a threat, or with Mario 3 falling off in favor of newer Marios.

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Sharinnegan
05/22/20 12:06:01 PM
#37:


i honestly think Witcher 3 is very close to being top 10, if not maybe even there already at the bottom.

BoTW likely isn't any weaker than OoT when facing anything that isn't OoT itself.
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ctesjbuvf
05/22/20 12:10:50 PM
#38:


What makes us think Mario 3 fell out of favor?

It wasn't SFF'd to death like Mario 64 in 2004, but I don't think Mario 64 was much different then. It just didn't get to show it.

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Leonhart4
05/22/20 12:15:16 PM
#39:


ctesjbuvf posted...
What makes us think Mario 3 fell out of favor?

It wasn't SFF'd to death like Mario 64 in 2004, but I don't think Mario 64 was much different then. It just didn't get to show it.

It's clearly been passed up by Mario World when it was noticeably stronger in 2004.

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ctesjbuvf
05/22/20 12:53:40 PM
#40:


I think that says more about SMW than SMB3. I have a hard time seeing them far apart indirectly.

It's a shame 2015 gave them not only RBY, but also Undertale.

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Leonhart4
05/22/20 4:55:35 PM
#41:


ctesjbuvf posted...
I think that says more about SMW than SMB3. I have a hard time seeing them far apart indirectly.

It's a shame 2015 gave them not only RBY, but also Undertale.

Oh, they're probably close indirectly, but it was no contest in 2004. It's important to consider that Mario 3 is 30 years old now. In 2004, it was as old as Twilight Princess is now.

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transcience
05/22/20 4:59:11 PM
#42:


yeah I dont know anyone that goes back to Mario 3 - but that kinda applies to World as well. it could be an age thing too, as our audience was a little younger back then, in terms of birth year.

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Leonhart4
05/22/20 5:03:29 PM
#43:


I think people just don't have as much nostalgia for the NES anymore. It's just TOO old at this point. The SNES was relevant up until 1996, so it's still in that sweet spot.

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Polycosm
05/22/20 5:07:17 PM
#44:


Yesmar_ posted...
Does anyone take any other game to beat any of these? Even consider it?

Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze


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Haste_2
05/22/20 5:08:08 PM
#45:


About all we have to compare them is 48% on RBY and 66% on Tetris (indirectly) vs. 63% on FFVIII. I mean, it seems like FFVIII would beat Tetris handily, but who really knows for sure.

I think Majora's Mask vs. Wind Waker would have been a very close match as of the 2015 Games Contest, 52/48, before SFF.

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ctesjbuvf
05/22/20 6:15:55 PM
#46:


Perhaps we were just still getting newer users after 2004 that grew up with a SNES instead.

Oh hey there me.

Although I've of course played and loved both, as a kid too, and I'm sure most people have. It looks weird having one without the other.


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squexa
05/22/20 8:58:41 PM
#47:


Yeah, people who grew up with the NES will obviously have nostalgia and love for it. But for people who didn't grow up with the system, most of them respect the NES sure, but how many of them truly *love* the NES? Most of the games have aged poorly.

The SNES has aged a lot better, but even then, some games just age better than others. Super Metroid and Chrono Trigger have aged especially well (which might explain their resurgence in 2015), while imo ALttP's always struck me as a game that aged badly at least relative to its peers. I don't think I've met many people who didn't grow up with ALttP be too impressed by it and ALttP's usually stuck fighting for 6th place with Skyward Sword on "best Zelda polls" on most non-boomer gaming sites.

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Yesmar_
05/22/20 9:45:51 PM
#48:


Despite never trusting its match with MM, I have some doubts about LttP too. I know that other people have been down on SMB3 in this topic, but I think that long term SMB3 is in a better position.

The Mario games are older, but 2D platforming is still relevant today. Hell, 2D Mario platforming is still relevant today. On the other hand, I don't know how many games like LttP are around. I wouldn't say it's old-fashioned per se; visually it looks fine, and the core Zelda mechanics are still there. I think someone used to more modern games would still enjoy it. However, being the definitive 2D Zelda game carries a lot less weight when they haven't been making 2D Zelda games/clones in 15 years. Sure SMB3 can feel like ancient history, but the genre it's part of is not, and I think that being an exemplar of its genre is as much a key to its strength as any sort of NES nostalgia.

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Keltiq
05/22/20 10:20:40 PM
#49:


Yesmar_ posted...
However, being the definitive 2D Zelda game carries a lot less weight when they haven't been making 2D Zelda games/clones in 15 years.
Nintendo has released five 2D Zeldas in the past fifteen years: Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Link Between Worlds, Triforce Heroes, and Link's Awakening. Admittedly that last one is a remake but it was still a big deal.

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UltimaterializerX
05/23/20 12:07:23 AM
#50:


ctesjbuvf posted...
The opening post nailed this one imo.

Final Fantasy VI keeps being brought up, but I wouldn't think it got close to anything there and it has no real place in this topic. Only barely beating Wind Waker is not top 9 material. Majora's Mask is worth brining up but probably falls short. The ALttP match is weird and you probably shouldn't take much from a match featuring two games from the same franchise.

The 2D Mario's are a bit underrated. Don't let their poor bracket placement fool you last time. SMB3 being just a step below RBY pre-rallies last time was a really good showing. Would likely put them above SM64.

Not expecting a RBY decline at all. The gen I hate around the internet (which is stupid to begin with) isn't getting worse. It hit as low as it could a while ago. How we're dimissive towards current state Pokemon wont hurt RBY at all, if anything, just strengthen it. This isn't much different from last time. Dexit or whatever s*** newer games pull wont make a difference when GameFAQs we were never going to care about anything recent Pokemon regardless of how good they were.
You mean the opening post that forgot to mention Melee?

There is no Noble Nine for games.

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