Current Events > Imo unpaid internships are fine

(+) Yeah! (+)

We have a policy of never taking interns without pay and it means very few college kids get an opportunity to work with us unless some third party will pay for it. Those third parties are usually like the school or sometimes a public organization (eg, the city). That does theoretically level the playing field between the rich and poor, but in practice the competitive nature of the funding source and the inherent advantage affluent students have means in practice it's still mostly affluent students just many fewer students overall.


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Or how about this: pay people for working for you regardless of how fucking rich they are

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Balrog0 posted...

We have a policy of never taking interns without pay and it means very few college kids get an opportunity to work with us unless some third party will pay for it. Those third parties are usually like the school or sometimes a public organization (eg, the city). That does theoretically level the playing field between the rich and poor, but in practice the competitive nature of the funding source and the inherent advantage affluent students have means in practice it's still mostly affluent students just many fewer students overall.

Would this apply in regards to minimum wage as well?
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Balrog0 posted...

We have a policy of never taking interns without pay and it means very few college kids get an opportunity to work with us unless some third party will pay for it. Those third parties are usually like the school or sometimes a public organization (eg, the city). That does theoretically level the playing field between the rich and poor, but in practice the competitive nature of the funding source and the inherent advantage affluent students have means in practice it's still mostly affluent students just many fewer students overall.

the result will be that unemployed people will apply for the internships and the college people wont get the experience they need

CreepySmile posted...

Or how about this: pay people for working for you regardless of how fucking rich they are

I just explained to you that this is our policy and how it operates in practice... Not sure why you seem upset

emblem boy posted...

Would this apply in regards to minimum wage as well?

I think it does operate this way to some extent (you see that minimum wage increases preferentially benefit workers with more tenure for example) but I don't think it's exactly the same. There are reasons like apprentices are exempt etc

The_Bitcoin posted...

the result will be that unemployed people will apply for the internships and the college people wont get the experience they need

Why would unemployed people want a job without pay?

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Balrog0 posted...

I just explained to you that this is our policy and how it operates in practice... Not sure why you seem upset

I think it does operate this way to some extent (you see that minimum wage increases preferentially benefit workers with more tenure for example) but I don't think it's exactly the same. There are reasons like apprentices are exempt etc

Why would unemployed people want a job without pay?

no, I meant paid internships

I have mixed opinions on them. The company my mom works for literally can't afford interns. But it is also in an industry with limited opportunities and where people looking to get into it are expected to have internships (sports marketing). So the options are either her company does no internships or unpaid ones. They end up turning down a dozen internship applications a year, despite them being unpaid. Because unpaid interns still cost money.

Now company's that can afford interns, but don't pay them can fuck right off.

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Compsognathus posted...

I have mixed opinions on them. The company my mom works for literally can't afford interns. But it is also in an industry with limited opportunities and where people looking to get into it are expected to have internships (sports marketing). So the options are either her company does no internships or unpaid ones. They end up turning down a dozen internship applications a year, despite them being unpaid. Because unpaid interns still cost money.

Now company's that can afford interns, but don't pay them can fuck right off.

Yeah, but it's hard to determine who can and can't afford an intern without just mandating you pay them. I definitely understand the tension. But I'm in a similarly limited field, so I see the other side as well. I personally wouldn't be where I am career wise without unpaid internships

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Balrog0 posted...

I just explained to you that this is our policy and how it operates in practice... Not sure why you seem upset

Fascinating how your title and topic content are different

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CreepySmile posted...

Fascinating how your title and topic content are different

It's not fascinating at all, if you had the patience to read a couple sentences you would understand how simple and straightforward it is

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Balrog0 posted...

It's not fascinating at all, if you had the patience to read a couple sentences you would understand how simple and straightforward it is

I did read it
I just find it amusing you made a troll title only to change your mind in the post

If I was responding to your post I'd have quoted it. I just responded to the title instead

Of course your entire argument falls apart when you realize the entire concept of unpaid internships is based around exploiting college kids to get experience to do an entry level job and actually get paid

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CreepySmile posted...

I did read it
I just find it amusing you made a troll title only to change your mind in the post

I didn't change my mind at all...

CreepySmile posted...

Of course your entire argument falls apart when you realize the entire concept of it is based around exploiting college kids to get experience to do an entry level job and actually get paid

Wait so did I change my mind or not? You seem really insistent on being upset, cya homie

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Balrog0 posted...

I didn't change my mind at all...

I never said that

Balrog0 posted...

Wait so did I change my mind or not?

I never said that (why did you repeat it?)

Balrog0 posted...

You seem really insistent on being upset,

No I just find it funny that someone trolled is all

Balrog0 posted...

cya

bye

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You might need to reassess your ability to read. His post completely aligns with his title.

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If two parties consent, everything is cool

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I mean if you want to justify it with "we don't pay them but another company does so unpaid internships are okay because they get paid but we don't pay them even though another company does pay them" sure go nuts

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It doesn't help that interns are pretty much useless, and requires you to babysit them.

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CreepySmile posted...

I mean if you want to justify it with "we don't pay them but another company does so unpaid internships are okay because they get paid but we don't pay them even though another company does pay them" sure go nuts

What he is saying is that unpaid internships inherently favor the more affluent because they can afford to not work for the summer. His organization does not does not accept unpaid internships because of that. However because there is a limited amount of public funds dedicated to sponsoring these students, there are very few internship opportunities. Furthermore, the act of securing these funds for the internship often are easier for more well-connected and affluent people. So the end result is that there are fewer opportunities and those few opportunities are going to affluent people. If they allowed unpaid internships there would be more opportunity for more students.

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Squall28 posted...

It doesn't help that interns are pretty much useless, and requires you to babysit them.

Dude, by the end of my six-month internship, they straight up treated me as another "real" worker

That said, it was paid. They gave me a decent bonus too, as well as a glowing letter of reference
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Compsognathus posted...

What he is saying is that unpaid internships inherently favor the more affluent because they can afford to not work for the summer. His organization does not does not accept unpaid internships because of that. However because there is a limited amount of public funds dedicated to sponsoring these students, there are very few internship opportunities. Furthermore, the act of securing these funds for the internship often are easier for more well-connected and affluent people. So the end result is that there are fewer opportunities and those few opportunities are going to affluent people. If they allowed unpaid internships there would be more opportunity for more students.

what difference do more opportunities make if it's still overwhelmingly privileged students getting them?


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FrisbeeDude posted...

what difference do more opportunities make if it's still overwhelmingly privileged students getting them?

Is it better for us to get 3 rich interns or 9 rich interns and 1 poor one?

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Compsognathus posted...

You might need to reassess your ability to read. His post completely aligns with his title.

CreepySmile posted...

Or how about this: pay people for working for you regardless of how fucking rich they are

Unpaid interns aren't supposed to actually do work beyond the training sense, at least not on anything that's a "product" being sold.

Here is a novel idea? What about fuck internships?

the idea was that college was supposed to teach you what you need for your first job. And if you need additional training thats what IN THE JOB TRAINING is for.

fuck spending time and money on filler courses that imply going to museums and writing papers on the philosophical implications of whatever buttfuckery so you can get a degree that doesnt need that shit (eg computer science) and then needing internships and on the job training because you only learned theoretical shit

The_Bitcoin posted...

the idea was that college was supposed to teach you what you need for your first job.

Because pre-calc and Chaucer are totally relevant skills for collating spreadsheets.

If you want someone to work for you, pay them.

If you want to work for someone, learn the skills and get paid. If you want to network to move up in a field, do so in a way that you aren't giving away labor.

The worst, though, is mandatory intenships from universities. They're the biggest scammers of all the parties involved. I was on a degree course that required you to pay 12 hours of courses for the privilege of working an unpaid internship and log your experience. So, I said fuck that.

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I feel like you guys aren't really even addressing his point
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emblem boy posted...

I feel like you guys aren't really even addressing his point

That the asinine policy of refusing to uplift someone poor via job skills, unless someone pays an endowment, is just hurting the same poor people it's meant to help?

berlyman101 posted...

If you want someone to work for you, pay them.

If you want to work for someone, learn the skills and get paid. If you want to network to move up in a field, do so in a way that you aren't giving away labor.

I mean this sounds good, but I'm not even sure what it would mean in practice in something like my field. It's not even really about the skills.

The ability to say I worked at X place and have Y person who can vouch for that experience is the valuable part. Not just shaking Ys hand at a fundraiser. Though I realize my field is not necessarily how most work.

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Balrog0 posted...

I mean this sounds good, but I'm not even sure what it would mean in practice in something like my field. It's not even really about the skills.

Are you sure you're not confusing "interns" and "volunteers"?

In practice, unpaid internships are typically just an excuse to get unpaid labor. The only people who truly benefit from them are those affluent enough that an internship probably wasn't necessary to begin with.

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Unpaid internships age bullshit plain and simple. Anyone arguing otherwise is wrong, it's not even debatable

emblem boy posted...

I feel like you guys aren't really even addressing his point

Probably because his point is just assumptions. For example,

Balrog0 posted...

Is it better for us to get 3 rich interns or 9 rich interns and 1 poor one?

Why does he think this will happen? Poor people cannot afford to just do an unpaid internship.

I think its much more likely for poorer students to obtain 3rd party aid to pay for internship than them doing an unpaid internship that will prevent them from working.

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E.g., I'm Bob the Senior Policy Advisor for Real Cool Programs in the office of the Awesome Governor of Cooltown. Balrogo0 was invaluable in ensuring our Progressive Movement (tm) work at Richguy Foundation actualized some jargon while also centering community voices in the blah, you'll be glad you hired him

That's what matters. It's hard and expensive to structure meaningful volunteerism.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Are you sure you're not confusing "interns" and "volunteers"?

I'm just saying that internships aren't really about just skills or just about networking. There's an intersection between the two.

darkbuster posted...

In practice, unpaid internships are typically just an excuse to get unpaid labor. The only people who truly benefit from them are those affluent enough that an internship probably wasn't necessary to begin with.

1) I've benefited from them and I'm not affluent
2) For me and where I work, internships are more about community service and relationship building than getting any specific productivity out of an intern.
3) as I said, even with paid internships, affluent people disproportionately benefit

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cuttin_in_farm posted...

Why does he think this will happen? Poor people cannot afford to just do an unpaid internship.

I have literally done it. And I literally speak to students who would like to every year.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

I think its much more likely for poorer students to obtain 3rd party aid to pay for internship than them doing an unpaid internship that will prevent them from working

It isn't in my experience. What's yours that makes you think otherwise?

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Balrog0 posted...

1) I've benefited from them and I'm not affluent
2) For me and where I work, internships are more about community service and relationship building than getting any specific productivity out of an intern.
3) as I said, even with paid internships, affluent people disproportionately benefit

• Unless someone else footed the bill or covered your life expenses, the ability to work without compensation inherently places you to a degree of affluence.
• If you didn't even develop any skills, it means your internship wasn't even of any real value, which makes using it as any metric mostly worthless, if the only real value was being able to say you know people.
• The rich get richer, that's just how life works when you get down to it.

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darkbuster posted...

Unless someone else footed the bill or covered your life expenses, the ability to work without compensation inherently places you to a degree of affluence.

I worked opening shift at McDonald's supporting my unemployed parents and then went and worked my unpaid internship.

darkbuster posted...

If you didn't even develop any skills, it means your internship wasn't even of any real value, which makes using it as any metric mostly worthless, if the only real value was being able to say you know people.

I definitely learned new skills. I just wasn't hired based on already having them? I don't understand your point either way, because that's a big part of moving up the career ladder

darkbuster posted...

The rich get richer, that's just how life works when you get down to it.

Well yeah, I'm just wondering if your opinion here is helping contribute to that because I'm incapable of dropping the ladder down for my folks without having $$$ behind it the way them rich folks can

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Balrog0 posted...

It isn't in my experience. What's yours that makes you think otherwise?

When I was in school, I could not even think about doing an unpaid internship because I definitely couldnt work simultaneously. Especially if it wasnt during the summer. Not just because of scheduling, but because I would not be able to juggle three things.

Nowadays I refer to my experience talking to kids who fell past due on their federal loans. Anytime someone mentioned an internship without pay, theyve fallen behind on bills and just hope they can defer payments.

Poorer kids are more likely to need loans. Even if they CAN manage to do an unpaid internship, their inability to pay on what the burrow before it snowballs is also a concern. Much moreso in the private loan lending, which is what I do now.

Anecdotal, obviously, but thats what I base it from.

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Because pre-calc and Chaucer are totally relevant skills for collating spreadsheets.

this is part of the problem too. Why do employers ask for a bachelors of science and a 4.0 GPA, pre-calc and advanced physics just to collate spreadsheets?

cuttin_in_farm posted...

When I was in school, I could not even think about doing an unpaid internship because I definitely couldnt work simultaneously. Especially if it wasnt during the summer. Not just because of scheduling, but because I would not be able to juggle three things.

Nowadays I refer to my experience talking to kids who fell past due on their federal loans. Anytime someone mentioned an internship without pay, theyve fallen behind on bills and just hope they can defer payments.

Poorer kids are more likely to need loans. Even if they CAN manage to do an unpaid internship, their inability to pay on what the burrow before it snowballs is also a concern. Much moreso in the private loan lending, which is what I do now.

Anecdotal, obviously, but thats what I base it from.

Interesting... Would you say those with unpaid internships are more likely than the people you work with more generally to get behind on their loans?

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The_Bitcoin posted...

Why do employers ask for a bachelors of science and a 4.0 GPA, pre-calc and advanced physics just to collate spreadsheets?

Mostly to keep HR from being dogpiled with applicants.

I agree. Paid internships, or in my experience research assistantships, tend to cause scarcity and hypercompetitiveness, giving a leg up to those who were in a good position prior to applying. I was able to get where I am by working full time and doing volunteer research assistant positions, which meant having a busy life, but at least I had an opportunity that I otherwise would not have had.

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Balrog0 posted...

I worked opening shift at McDonald's supporting my unemployed parents and then went and worked my unpaid internship.

So in other words, your life is some typical overcoming adversity movie, that no compassionate person would willingly subject a real person to.

Balrog0 posted...

I definitely learned new skills. I just wasn't hired based on already having them? I don't understand your point either way, because that's a big part of moving up the career ladder

Which is why the whole point of an unpaid internship is complete BS. There's no reason most companies simply couldn't hire & train a new employee in the same way, except not wanting to accept the cost, & rather it be subsidized by someone else, such as schools, universities, volunteering, etc.

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darkbuster posted...

So in other words, your life is some typical overcoming adversity movie, that no compassionate person would willingly subject a real person to.

I would rather have done what I did than just be stuck working opening shift at McDonald's.

darkbuster posted...

Which is why the whole point of an unpaid internship is complete BS. There's no reason most companies simply couldn't hire & train a new employee in the same way, except not wanting to accept the cost, & rather it be subsidized by someone else, such as schools, universities, volunteering, etc.

I srsly have no idea what you're talking about. The work I did might not have been useful even if I learned skills. They never paid me. I just took up staff time, which does cost them money. But I wouldn't have been able to get the University or someone else to pay for it.

Like to me it's exactly why unpaid internships aren't BS. I definitely could not have demanded minimum wage or any wage. But you're saying it proves they're BS... I'm just confused

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Balrog0 posted...

Interesting... Would you say those with unpaid internships are more likely than the people you work with more generally to get behind on their loans?

I would say yes, if I understand your phrasing. Though keep in mind, I primarily worked on the side of things when students need help, so I didnt speak with burrowers who were current too often.

But from what I gather, you get two types of students who do unpaid when they still need to work.

The ones like you, who can manage to juggle it all and do fine.

Or you get the ones who either start to struggle on their schoolwork, or have to temporarily go below halftime (which causes early repayment and empties their grace period prematurely).

The issue is time management to me. It is quite literally only college kids who expected to attend lectures, study out the classroom, have a job, and still have a social life all at the same time. If they have to add on internships on top of that, it will dramatically benefit students who can cut out one need.

Now if we merge working and internships, even if it makes it more competitive, it at least opens the window for who can participate.

In theory.

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darkbuster posted...

So in other words, your life is some typical overcoming adversity movie, that no compassionate person would willingly subject a real person to.

It's not about what everyone would like. It's about what realistically happens. It's not a choice between what's fair and unfair. It's about what is actually a better situation for people. Balrog, like myself, benefited from unpaid internships. I don't know about him, but without that experience, I certainly wouldn't be where I am now, and I definitely wouldn't have been competitive for a paid position.

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COVxy posted...

It's about what is actually a better situation for people.

"No income and padding a resume" is certainly better than just "no income".

Balrog0 posted...

I srsly have no idea what you're talking about. The work I did might not have been useful even if I learned skills. They never paid me. I just took up staff time, which does cost them money. But I wouldn't have been able to get the University or someone else to pay for it.

If you seriously believe the work might not have been useful, then that brings to question: what was even the point of it, then?

Even worse, if you apparently just took up time, while still apparently costing them money. It would far more practical to just focus the "cost" of an unpaid intern towards an actual training program.

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darkbuster posted...

If you seriously believe the work might not have been useful, then that brings to question: what was even the point of it, then?

Community service and relationship building lol. I told you that was why we get interns... it's also probabilistic; I might've done something really great that would have been huge. It's not like it's either feast or famine.

I did work that eventually ended up being useful but didn't start that way. And it probably wasn't worth my supervisors time if you only look at that metric.

darkbuster posted...

Even worse, if you apparently just took up time, while still apparently costing them money. It would far more practical to just focus the "cost" of an unpaid intern towards an actual training program.

What do you mean an actual training program?

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