Poll of the Day > COVID-19 ALERT: US death toll passes China's...

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/coronavirus-live-updates-us-deaths-surpass-chinas-but-chinas-figures-remain-in-doubt/ar-BB11WolY

But we have like 1/4 less ppl than them...

Yeah there's 0 possibility that only 3000 died in China.

---

We still have people believing China's data lol

1. Yeah I seriously doubt china was being anyway truthful about their numbers, it was almost certainly far worse there than they let on.
2. And even so they were taking measures for quarantine that were inhumane.. things like sealing people, like literally welding and chaining peoples doors shut, inside their homes.

---

papercup posted...

Yeah there's 0 possibility that only 3000 died in China.

I completely get why there is so much doubt about China's numbers considering the authoritarian nature of Xi's regime, but at the same time, its well documented that they implemented heavy quarantine measures that would effectively stop the spread, at around the time the numbers began to decrease. Plus the hospitals they built for the crisis have been close to empty for a couple weeks now. Everything tracks, so I believe a lot of it.

Alright to clarify, I don't really believe the overall numbers, but I totally believe that the virus is almost completely gone from the region and isn't spreading anymore, that seems to be apparent.

---

Why do people believe Chinas lies?
There is lots of reports and even photos of showing 1000s of burial urns at just one funeral home, now lets take that over weeks, and several funeral homes within Wuhan, and across the country.

---

Dont forget the millions without phones

---

madadude posted...

I completely get why there is so much doubt about China's numbers considering the authoritarian nature of Xi's regime, but at the same time, its well documented that they implemented heavy quarantine measures that would effectively stop the spread, at around the time the numbers began to decrease. Plus the hospitals they built for the crisis have been close to empty for a couple weeks now. Everything tracks, so I believe it.

So projections right now on a best case scenario in the US if we can do all the right stuff are still talking 100,000-200,000 deaths and thats the good estimate... If we screw up it could be higher. I hope they are wrong... So you believe 3,000 in a bassackwards country like China, where there are more people and more people living poorly, and do you think the inhumane measures started immediately? I would say it was probably ramped up quite a bit before they panicked and started doing that stuff. No way it was 3000 only... no way.

---

China almost certainly is manipulating their numbers

but at the same time authoritarian rule allowed them to pretty effectively enforce quarantine and stay at home mandates when they decided that was the best option(not at all saying we should have authoritarianism in the US btw)

meanwhile here in the US weve got half the country bitching that this is all an overreaction and that its no worse than the flu. At this rate every major city in the US is gonna need field hospitals for the sick and even the most optimistic projections are showing a minimum of 100k dead

---

Get back to me when we pass Italy's numbers, which we will, easily.

Those are far more real, and they have done a WAY better job of self isolating then us, have more medical supplies etc per capita and they took it VERY seriously right from the start (onll a few deaths reported before then started quarantine).

So yeah, we'll get there, but this has just started.

---

Sequiro posted...

So projections right now on a best case scenario in the US if we can do all the right stuff are still talking 100,000-200,000 deaths and thats the good estimate... If we screw up it could be higher. I hope they are wrong... So you believe 3,000 in a bassackwards country like China, where there are more people and more people living poorly, and do you think the inhumane measures started immediately? I would say it was probably ramped up quite a bit before they panicked and started doing that stuff. No way it was 3000 only... no way.

China went under heavy quarantine measures back at the last week of January/first week of February when there were only about 13,000 cases. America isn't even near the same level of quarantine, and is already far above that in terms of cases. If America went under heavy quarantine around March 18th when we were at the same level, it wouldn't be as bad. But America is incredibly different culturally and economically so those levels of quarantine aren't even being considered here, so it will keep spreading. At the same time, if China never put those measures into place until a couple weeks later, 100,000 deaths is certainly expected. China was late to respond, but still way earlier and stricter compared to most countries.

I think it is much more appropriate to compare China to South Korea or Japan, which culturally is much more close to China (like face mask usage and gloves on an every-day basis is fairly common already, not to mention once this started, plus other things of course), and South Korea has managed to contain the virus, and while still increasing, has limited the rate tremendously, and in a similar capacity to what China is reporting, as opposed to America where it is still increasing exponentially. Considering China's measures that they took were much more strict than South Korea, and South Korea has managed to largely decrease the spread, don't see why its absurd to think China didn't do it better. Of course their measures wouldn't fly at all in the Western world, but you can't deny that exactly what they did is exactly what is needed to stop the spread.

---

China's numbers are probably not legitimate, but the fact that the US' numbers are as high as they are should nonetheless be cause for alarm. Downplaying the US' current crisis by saying that China's faking their numbers doesn't help anyone.

---

madadude posted...

China went under heavy quarantine measures back at the last week of January/first week of February when there were only about 13,000 cases. America isn't even near the same level of quarantine, and is already far above that in terms of cases. If America went under heavy quarantine around March 18th when we were at the same level, it wouldn't be as bad. But America is incredibly different culturally and economically so those levels of quarantine aren't even being considered here, so it will keep spreading. At the same time, if China never put those measures into place until a couple weeks later, 100,000 deaths is certainly expected. China was late to respond, but still way earlier and stricter compared to most countries.

I think it is much more appropriate to compare China to South Korea or Japan, which culturally is much more close to China (like face mask usage and gloves on an every-day basis is fairly common already, plus other things of course), and South Korea has managed to contain the virus, and while still increasing, has limited the rate tremendously, and in a similar capacity to what China is reporting, as opposed to America where it is still increasing exponentially. Considering China's measures that they took were much more strict than South Korea, and South Korea has managed to largely decrease the spread, don't see why its absurd to think China didn't do it better. Of course their measures wouldn't fly at all in the Western world, but you can't deny that exactly what they did is exactly what is needed to stop the spread.

Coronavirus has been in China since November though

OhhhJa posted...

Coronavirus has been in China since November though

So? I literally said in my post that China was late to respond. Doesn't get into the way that China implemented strict quarantine measures to minimize the spread, whereas America isn't even close to doing that despite getting exponentially worse daily. Don't think America should do measures like China did, not a fan of authoritarianism like that, but it definitely would be the most effective thing at combating the spread of the virus, which is all I'm talking about re: China's cases flatlining due to their authoritarian quarantine policies.

---

Is this one dude arguing that 3,000 is right? Lmao. It's more likely that they've executed more than 3,000 sick citizens

And it's not gone from China either. Never believe a single good thing that comes from China

But still, America is boned. I blame it on too many stubborn and too many dirty people.

---

It's a pretty well-established fact that China chose to attribute many C-Virus deaths to other causes, in addition to being very widely-suspected that they've greatly downplayed other numbers. Keep in mind that this is the same government that once claimed that China doesn't have rats.

But yeah, keep posting #FakeNews

---

Good video on this (by a real scientist)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4yZaoA90Jk

---

You actually believe this shit? You actually believe the numbers that the CPP is spewing out? Tens of thousands of urns have been shipped to Wuhan alone, due to mass cremations, as well as China BLOCKING all cellphone and internet access there to keep up their propaganda and censorship.

papercup posted...

Yeah there's 0 possibility that only 3000 died in China.

Yeah. This. The "mobile phone cancellation" factor combined with what the gov't is claiming are probably both exaggerated. I bet it's somewhere in the middle...... between 3000 and 1M.

OhhhJa posted...

We still have people believing China's data lol

---

Hey look, 5/8 posts since mine have focused on the "China's numbers are fake" angle and not the "oh dear US' numbers are getting really bad" one. I am so very surprised.

---

Raddest_Chad posted...

Yeah. This. The "mobile phone cancellation" factor combined with what the gov't is claiming are probably both exaggerated. I bet it's somewhere in the middle...... between 3000 and 1M.

I say they're downplayed. You're talking about the same political party which murdered and intentionally starved over 30 million people for the Great Leap Forward, and who still admires Mao Zedong. The same political party that uses a "Social Credits" system in order to control people based on their actions, and a police state so bad, that Hong Kong citizens are actively rioting over.

I would say that it's far more than anybody anticipated.

Yellow posted...

Good video on this (by a real scientist)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4yZaoA90Jk

Very good video. Thanks for sharing.

---

So this is what China's "data" tells us:

They cured it and somehow got the cure to their entire population in a few months now aren't sharing details on how.

Or

They are obviously lying so their economy doesnt fall further into the shitter

---

adjl posted...

Hey look, 5/8 posts since mine have focused on the "China's numbers are fake" angle and not the "oh dear US' numbers are getting really bad" one. I am so very surprised.

Nuance is a dead language. :/

But speaking of, US deaths have now overtaken the casualties of 9/11.

---

RCtheWSBC posted...

Nuance is a dead language. :/

But speaking of, US deaths have now overtaken the casualties of 9/11.

That means China caused 9/11!!

---

adjl posted...

Hey look, 5/8 posts since mine have focused on the "China's numbers are fake" angle and not the "oh dear US' numbers are getting really bad" one. I am so very surprised.

Well the topic is literally about the deaths in the US surpassing China so I think it's a perfectly normal response to question China's obviously false data

What if the US numbers are also a lie?

---

OhhhJa posted...

Well the topic is literally about the deaths in the US surpassing China so I think it's a perfectly normal response to question China's obviously false data

He would rather believe the numbers brought by the Wuhan Health Organization and the China News Network

Do they eat peanut butter in China?

---

OhhhJa posted...

Well the topic is literally about the deaths in the US surpassing China so I think it's a perfectly normal response to question China's obviously false data

The topic is about US deaths surpassing China's reported numbers. Which of the following do you think is the more important point to focus on within that topic?

-The extremely high possibility that China's deaths are much higher than reported and that US deaths therefore have not yet surpassed them
-The fact that US deaths are getting quite high, which should be prompting greater public concern and caution instead of the growing apathy, frustration, and outright defiance coming from many

I'll give you a hint: It's the one that involves actually saving lives instead of waving nationalistic e-peens.

---

Both of those things. If it's more deadly than China is letting on, we need to know.

---

Like I get it: it's not a pissing contest but accurate data is important.

---

I hope the rest of the world blames the hell out of the CCP for this.

---

The fact of the matter is that the true scale of the disaster, like the holocaust, has been concealed in order to push a partisan narrative. It's best not to dwell on the issue.

---

Could you imagine a xenophobic lockdown of international travel with quarantine tent cities that it would take to actually lower the spread and the different conversation we'd be having right now.

FYI, while it's definitely right to suspect CCP of lying, there's supposed to be nothing suspicious about their numbers. they follow similar patterns and rates as other countries. it seems more like it's their ability to enact extreme measures (which could even include executing infected) that has allowed them to significantly slow the spread.

Yellow posted...

Good video on this (by a real scientist)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4yZaoA90Jk

+1 for posting potholer, though note that he's not a scientist, he's a science journalist

---

SunWuKung420 posted...

What if the US numbers are also a lie?

Lmao

Hey look, 5/8 posts since mine have focused on the "China's numbers are fake" angle and not the "oh dear US' numbers are getting really bad" one. I am so very surprised.

Yeah, how dare people talk about the comparison of US's numbers vs China's numbers (and the legitimacy of China's numbers) in a topic titled "US death toll surpasses China's"

Philip027 posted...

Yeah, how dare people talk about the comparison of US's numbers vs China's numbers (and the legitimacy of China's numbers) in a topic titled "US death toll surpasses China's"

Yeah guys, we need to stop bullying china. They did nothing wrong!

adjl posted...

Hey look, 5/8 posts since mine have focused on the "China's numbers are fake" angle and not the "oh dear US' numbers are getting really bad" one. I am so very surprised.

Because which is more relevant to the discussion? The fictitious headline? Or a mild defense of the fictitious headline vis a vis "well, things here are really bad!"


---

madadude posted...

I completely get why there is so much doubt about China's numbers considering the authoritarian nature of Xi's regime, but at the same time, its well documented that they implemented heavy quarantine measures that would effectively stop the spread, at around the time the numbers began to decrease. Plus the hospitals they built for the crisis have been close to empty for a couple weeks now. Everything tracks, so I believe a lot of it.

Alright to clarify, I don't really believe the overall numbers, but I totally believe that the virus is almost completely gone from the region and isn't spreading anymore, that seems to be apparent.

aside from the around 40,000 burial urns they ordered, sure

wolfy42 posted...

Get back to me when we pass Italy's numbers, which we will, easily.

Those are far more real, and they have done a WAY better job of self isolating then us, have more medical supplies etc per capita and they took it VERY seriously right from the start (onll a few deaths reported before then started quarantine).

So yeah, we'll get there, but this has just started.

what?

no.

italy pretty wholly ignored all quarantine orders. they didn't take it seriously, at all, until it was far, far too late.

---

wolfy42 posted...

Get back to me when we pass Italy's numbers, which we will, easily.

Those are far more real, and they have done a WAY better job of self isolating then us, have more medical supplies etc per capita and they took it VERY seriously right from the start (onll a few deaths reported before then started quarantine).

So yeah, we'll get there, but this has just started.

did you mean to say South Korea or something? Italy is known for being the worst prepared country by far, though they're starting to get it more under control now.

and what do you mean by "pass Italy's numbers"? USA has almost twice as many cases as Italy. But then Italy also apparently has a huge death rate at almost 12%, which hopefully USA will never get close to.

(ok I guess this topic's theme is death toll. yes Italy has 3x the deaths as USA right now, but USA is just getting started and growing exponentially at 20-30k new cases per day. that's ~1200 new future deaths per day at a 4% rate.)

---

Sahuagin posted...

did you mean to say South Korea or something? Italy is known for being the worst prepared country by far, though they're starting to get it more under control now.

and what do you mean by "pass Italy's numbers"? USA has almost twice as many cases as Italy. But then Italy also apparently has a huge death rate at almost 12%, which hopefully USA will never get close to.

(ok I guess this topic's theme is death toll. yes Italy has 3x the deaths as USA right now, but USA is just getting started and growing exponentially at 20-30k new cases per day. that's ~1200 new future deaths per day at a 4% rate.)

The state of Texas alone can also house Italy 2 times over. And America has about 6 times the population of Italy.

EvilMegas posted...

Both of those things. If it's more deadly than China is letting on, we need to know.

It doesn't really matter what the exact mortality rate is. We know for certain that it's high enough that we need to keep it in check, which is a challenge because of how rapidly we're able to see it spreading in the dozens of countries with detailed, reliable data. Is there potential to hold China accountable for deaths that have resulted from underestimating this thing? Absolutely. But that's not going to happen for a long while yet, and it certainly won't happen if people keep underestimating it despite the information that's now readily available (since China can't be blamed for that).

Philip027 posted...

Yeah, how dare people talk about the comparison of US's numbers vs China's numbers (and the legitimacy of China's numbers) in a topic titled "US death toll surpasses China's"

Yes, it is indeed wrong to focus on pointless trivia over useful information in discussing something with significant real-world impact. It will never matter whether the US' numbers are greater than or less than China's, real or imagined. The only thing rankings like that can tell us is who to emulate moving forward, and nobody is ever going to consider China to be a legitimate candidate there. Raw numbers are also pretty useless, given that populations and population densities vary so much. The trajectory of case numbers is more valuable, since that indicates who's managing to slow things down and who isn't.

Quite simply, saying the US death toll has surpassed China's just contextualizes the number that's being presented to give it a rough sense of scale. It's not a comparison that has any useful semantic value, meaning dithering over the comparison's accuracy is foolish.

---

adjl posted...

It doesn't really matter what the exact mortality rate is. We know for certain that it's high enough that we need to keep it in check, which is a challenge because of how rapidly we're able to see it spreading in the dozens of countries with detailed, reliable data. Is there potential to hold China accountable for deaths that have resulted from underestimating this thing? Absolutely. But that's not going to happen for a long while yet, and it certainly won't happen if people keep underestimating it despite the information that's now readily available (since China can't be blamed for that).

If china is lying about it being totally contained, (they are) this is a major concern. Lets not forget that China couldn't care less about sacrificing millions of their own. They would do it happily

I searched all over for the article I read this morning, written by an american reporter who has been stuck in Italy since this all started. He described the extreme measures, and the fact that 14 (think it was provinces he said, maybe it was cities) were quarantined and reporters could not get into them.

I can't find the stupid article, I even checked my history. It must have been through aol or something I guess.

Anyway, here is another article explaining that Italy actually has had the strongest western restrictions and response so far. It has been almost a month since they started severe SAH orders which is about 2 weeks ahead of the US.

The basic point I was trying to make is that they didn't just drop the ball or ignore things (like germany and the US have done), but actually took this seriously almost right away, about the opposite of the response in the US.


---

Good.