Board 8 > Holy Dark Souls! *SPOILERS INSIDE*

(+) Yeah! (+)

So after a couple trial runs of Dark Souls a few years ago, first stopping somewhere in the Undead Burg, and later stopping again on the road to Blighttown, I'm finally going through the game properly and am determined to beat it.

There have been a few epic moments in my run so far. Getting murdered by Quelaag even with the NPC helping, then beating her solo as a hollow. Killing the Iron Golem right before he was about to murder me as I had barely any health when I started to swing. Getting lost in Darkroot Garden and ending up finding and fighting Sif by accident (watching him loom over me initially was fucking awesome). But nothing beats what happened earlier this evening.

I was painfully making my way through Anor Londo. Clearing out rooms, finding a few shortcuts, getting in fights with 100 silver knights. I knew there was a boss here eventually, as there normally is in an area such as this. Finally opened up everything, ran up into the cathedral, avoided the big sentinel knight guy, and went through the fog gate. Cinematic was pretty cool, as most of them are, showing the ginormous guy with a hammer, and then what looked like a dragoon jumping down to join him. 2 on 1, wonderful. But just before the battle started, I saw the names.

Ornstein and Smough.

I'm no crazy Souls veteran, at least not yet, but I had heard the names of these two, and knew that the fight against them was basically the epitome of Dark Souls itself.

......I died in 12 seconds lol.

Later, I killed Ornstein, and was about to turn my attention to Smough when I got a cinematic of him crushing Ornstein's skull to somehow get crazy lightning power. I was shortly obliterated by his AOE lightning butt stomp. Couple tries later, I had him down to two hits left, hit him once, but he had jumped into his butt swing before I could land the second swing. I died, and was sooooo enraged.

On try number 7 or 8, I played ring around the rosie with Thor.........I mean Smough, so his shovel attack would get stopped, as I always had a stupidly hard time dodging it. Got my hits in where I could, and stalked around him as he stalked around me. Then I finally killed him. I don't remember the last time I felt THAT good after killing a video game boss, but man was it satisfying. Oh, and now I can warp between bonfires!

That got more lengthy than I thought it would. tldr: Ornstein and Smough was an absolutely awesome fight, with epic music. Never really felt unfair, just had to know their tactics, and adapt throughout the fight. Heart is still beating relatively quickly, and now I'm listening to their theme while I browse, just for the sheer epicness of it!

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One of the best games of all time

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Ornstein and Smough is such a good boss fight. And I'd say it's actually only the second best in Dark Souls 1!

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I assume the best is farther down the line in your opinion then?

Either way, any progress in this game feels super satisfying, which is a nice refreshing feeling!

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mccheyne posted...

I assume the best is farther down the line in your opinion then?

Yeah. It's in the DLC actually which you may want to look up how to access at some point because it's fairly obscure for having so much great content behind it. Technically speaking you just reached the point where you could access it if you wanted (you need the Lordvessel at a minimum) but it's the kind of thing you can decide to take on when you feel up to it.

The steps to get there off-the-top of my head (so if I screwed up somewhere either someone can correct me or again just look it up):

0. Place the Lordvessel at Firelink Shrine. ...I think. What you need is for those golden barriers to come down. I forget if that happens when you obtain the Lordvessel or when you place it. If you saw a cutscene of barriers disappearing various places around the world you're good.

1. Head to Darkroot Basin. If you didn't end up there at one point during your trip to Darkroot Garden it's accessible near the entrance to the Garden there's a path that leads down that you pass by like one enemy in (or maybe even before the first tree guy.) It's a small area that contains a big lake. Clear out the enemies there and your goal is to head to a cave in the way back. Hug the cliff/wall where the waterfall is and head back there because most of the lake is a killzone if you walk too far into it. You should find a gold golem there. Kill it and an NPC should show up. Talk to her (might have to exhaust dialogue but I forget.)

2. Head over to the Duke's Archives. This is early in Anor Londo, you probably saw it on your first visit. From where you get dropped off just cross the area (or warp to the first bonfire and take a... left, I think it is) instead of descending into Anor Londo proper. If you explored here earlier you would have seen a golden fog barrier blocking your path. It should be gone now. Clear a few enemies out and very early on you'll meet another conspicuous golem as you first enter the area right after an elevator. If you talked to the NPC before and kill the golem it'll drop an item. This is your ticket to the DLC areas.

3. Head back to Darkroot Basin where you fought that gold golem and now there should be something different there. Approach it and you're good.

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xp1337 posted...

words

That's it!

It's honestly insanely obscure and I probably would have never found the DLC on it's own (lol From, come on), but it's arguably the best content the game has.

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Play 3 next

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xp1337 posted...

Yeah. It's in the DLC actually which you may want to look up how to access at some point because it's fairly obscure for having so much great content behind it. Technically speaking you just reached the point where you could access it if you wanted (you need the Lordvessel at a minimum) but it's the kind of thing you can decide to take on when you feel up to it.

The steps to get there off-the-top of my head (so if I screwed up somewhere either someone can correct me or again just look it up):

0. Place the Lordvessel at Firelink Shrine. ...I think. What you need is for those golden barriers to come down. I forget if that happens when you obtain the Lordvessel or when you place it. If you saw a cutscene of barriers disappearing various places around the world you're good.

1. Head to Darkroot Basin. If you didn't end up there at one point during your trip to Darkroot Garden it's accessible near the entrance to the Garden there's a path that leads down that you pass by like one enemy in (or maybe even before the first tree guy.) It's a small area that contains a big lake. Clear out the enemies there and your goal is to head to a cave in the way back. Hug the cliff/wall where the waterfall is and head back there because most of the lake is a killzone if you walk too far into it. You should find a gold golem there. Kill it and an NPC should show up. Talk to her (might have to exhaust dialogue but I forget.)

2. Head over to the Duke's Archives. This is early in Anor Londo, you probably saw it on your first visit. From where you get dropped off just cross the area (or warp to the first bonfire and take a... left, I think it is) instead of descending into Anor Londo proper. If you explored here earlier you would have seen a golden fog barrier blocking your path. It should be gone now. Clear a few enemies out and very early on you'll meet another conspicuous golem as you first enter the area right after an elevator. If you talked to the NPC before and kill the golem it'll drop an item. This is your ticket to the DLC areas.

3. Head back to Darkroot Basin where you fought that gold golem and now there should be something different there. Approach it and you're good.

Will definitely take a look at that later!

foolm0r0n posted...

Play 3 next

Skip 2?

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I personally enjoyed 2 more than 1 but I do believe 2 is generally seen as the worst of the three
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2 was great during the zeitgeist due to online play but otherwise it's very much more of the same. 3 feels like a real sequel.

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2 is great if you liked demon's souls a lot

it's not as great of a sequel to dark souls 1 specifically, which is probably why it gets trashed so hard.

the series would actually make more sense if dark souls 2 was called demon's souls 2, and dark souls 3 was called dark souls 2. since 3 is actually makes way more sense as a sequel to 1.

unfortunately the haters of dark souls 2 tend to be incredibly vocal. I find it's barely even worth discussing the game just because it's not worth the annoyance of hearing people complain about 'muh elevator' for the 500th time


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I played Dark Souls 2 like two months ago and enjoyed it. I think I preferred DS1 but I still really enjoyed DS2. Combat didn't feel as crisp in some ways that I can't explain well (it almost reminds me of Brawl v Melee) but it made other changes there that I liked as well like proper dual-wielding.

Fume Knight was a top-tier fight as well.

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Something really seemed off to me about Dark Souls 2 when I played it. Something about the combat was just slightly wrong and I don't know what it is. I don't know if the hitboxes are wrong, if the timing's a bit different, or what. But the combat just doesn't feel nearly as rewarding to me as Dark Souls 1 or 3.

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The combat in dark souls 2 is slower and more deliberate. Like Demon's Souls it plays closer to a turn based RPG that happens to take place in an action RPG world space. There's a lot more situations where you attack the enemy once and then wait while they attack.

Also Dark Souls 1 and 3 have the ridiculous instant backstabs that cause the entire meta to be built around fishing. While this is faster and more satisfying, it's one of the reasons I don't like those games nearly as much. It's just not that fun to me to strafe around an enemy and backstab them while they are inexplicably unable to track my movement.

Similar to how, in the opposite case, people don't like Dark Souls 2 because they don't like slowly trading attacks back and forth with the enemy. And it frustrates them that when they try to circle strafe the opponent, the opponent can actually track their movements and punish them.

Dark Souls 1 also has the most easily abused poise mechanics... while Dark Souls 2 only rewards a tanking playstyle if you learn how poise works. once again, this is what I prefer. I want to be rewarded for learning the strategic RPG elements of the game. I don't want to just put on the heaviest armor and poise backstab everything.

DS3 is actually the same philosophy as DS2 (poise sucks... unless you learn how to use it properly), which I appreciated, but unfortunately it has some issues in the lategame. Understanding of poise is clutch in PVP, but I have to say I'm always frustrated how the later half of a PVE playthrough always ends with me realizing that the best way to fight the last 1/4 of the game is to switch to a straight sword and fast roll through everything. Every enemy in the last few areas has too much poise and too much poise damage for a tanking playstyle to work against them. even if it did, you would out DPS with a straight sword while taking less damage anyway. Heck, I'm okay with this. I played a tank for the first 3/4 just for fun even though it was clearly sub optimal. but then they make it impossible to win battles by tanking and it just feels unrewarding.

when people say the mechanics in DS2 are unsatisfying they are usually complaining that the heavy weapons actually feel heavy. which is one of the main things that DS2 fans actually love about the game.

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I think ds3 is easily the weakest of them all and is the one I've enjoyed replays of the least.

However, 2 suffers from a really strange situation where the base game in my opinion, is generally better than the ps4 "remaster", except for where the dlc is involved. Scholar of the first sin is fine enough, but I think the enemy placements and variety are actually better in the original.

Edit: and ds2 probably has the best fashion souls and potential build variety, so if you like those aspects (which I do) then it can be a very fun experience.

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Definitely looking forward to playing both of them!

Went to the Great Hollow. Dropping precisely onto certain branches to get items is quite frustrating at times. Basilisks are annoying but not the worst, but those mushroom things on the ground hit damn hard

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mccheyne posted...

Definitely looking forward to playing both of them!

Went to the Great Hollow. Dropping precisely onto certain branches to get items is quite frustrating at times. Basilisks are annoying but not the worst, but those mushroom things on the ground hit damn hard

https://i.imgur.com/D6z0RZF.gif

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MariaTaylor posted...

when people say the mechanics in DS2 are unsatisfying they are usually complaining that the heavy weapons actually feel heavy. which is one of the main things that DS2 fans actually love about the game.

I've literally never heard that specific gripe before. I also powerstanced Greatswords (ie the UGS called that, man that naming convention is dumb) and enjoyed that aspect but still found it the worst by far.

MariaTaylor posted...

Also Dark Souls 1 and 3 have the ridiculous instant backstabs that cause the entire meta to be built around fishing.

3 does not by a long shot. It's animation is more akin to 1's than 2's I'll grant you, but unlike 1 you can still fail to connect quite often, especially in PvP. It also just has a smaller angle range in general I'm pretty sure.

Suffice it to say, backstab fishing in PvP is pretty much as viable in 3 as it is in 2, which is to say it pretty much won't happen unless someone fucks up.

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kevwaffles posted...

3 does not by a long shot. It's animation is more akin to 1's than 2's I'll grant you, but unlike 1 you can still fail to connect quite often, especially in PvP. It also just has a smaller angle range in general I'm pretty sure.

Suffice it to say, backstab fishing in PvP is pretty much as viable in 3 as it is in 2, which is to say it pretty much won't happen unless someone fucks up.

oh I fully agree with this, and was even going to mention that 3 was better in this regard, but I just didn't feel like it was worth it. since my post was more about how 2 is different from 1, and not about how 3 relates to either.

kevwaffles posted...

I've literally never heard that specific gripe before. I also powerstanced Greatswords (ie the UGS called that, man that naming convention is dumb) and enjoyed that aspect but still found it the worst by far.

it comes up, but not as often as the most common/shallow criticisms (muh elevator, armor dudes, etc.)


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I definitely wouldn't call complaining about the lack of boss variety particularly shallow, especially when most of those in the base game are far inferior to anything in that category in the other games. It's like Velstadt is the best hands down, Lost Sinner and Ruin Sentinels are okay I guess, and maybe Pursuer is passable if I'm being generous.

The elevator is simply a glaring example of people's problems with the level design, but really if that was the only issue in that respect I think people would laugh it off more than they do. It's kind of amazing how much better the level design is in the DLC, sans the unicorn area which is the worst thing a well-respected developer has ever unleashed upon humanity.

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Dark Souls 2's issue is that it has too many mediocre areas. The game is long as hell and a decent chunk of it feels like filler. The good stuff is very good, though.

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kevwaffles posted...

The elevator is simply a glaring example of people's problems with the level design, but really if that was the only issue in that respect I think people would laugh it off more than they do.

brother it's a five second scene where you ride up an elevator into a castle in the sky.

this has nothing to do with level design. it's not even part of a level, it's a transition between levels.

it's a problem with WORLD DESIGN. which was a big focus in dark souls 1, but NOT as big of a focus on demon's souls or dark souls 2. once again why I say ds2 is a better sequel to demon's souls.

but really if this 5 second scene somehow impacts anyone's opinion of a 60+ hour game all that much I generally just assume that person has suffered from literal brain damage. it's a meme. it's not a glaring example of anything except the stupidity of the internet.

kevwaffles posted...

lack of boss variety

another dumb meme with no basis in reality. dark souls 2 has more monster type bosses than dark souls 1, more bosses overall, and a similar % of armor dudes vs non armor dude bosses. the fact that this nonsense still gets repeated after years, in spite of the fact that it's easily debunked, really goes to show how pointless these discussions really are.

it's a shallow criticism because someone would only say this if they don't actually know enough about dark souls 1 and 2 to make a fair comparison.

kevwaffles posted...

especially when most of those in the base game are far inferior to anything in that category in the other games

you are free to have that opinion. personally I think dark souls 1 has way more trash bosses which suffer from more simple AI.

KamikazePotato posted...

Dark Souls 2's issue is that it has too many mediocre areas. The game is long as hell and a decent chunk of it feels like filler. The good stuff is very good, though.

once again this is a valid opinion but like... there are plenty of people who enjoy the fact that there are tons of different areas to explore. I also consider the shorter levels with more frequent bonfires to be a huge positive mark in the game's favor, and the fact that many of the individual levels are designed in ways that make them very easy to run through once you know the routes.

I do agree that the best parts of the game are what really puts it on the next level, though. ds2 wouldn't be nearly as good without the DLC.


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I'm not saying the elevator ruins the game. I'm saying it's just the single sentence example people break out instead of going on 20 minute diatribes. And admittedly I was lumping world design and level design together confusedly, but that's sort of what people do, which is sort of my point.

And DeS has significantly better level design than DS2. Half of the areas in DS2 are at best one step above what it would be if FFX maps were used in a DS style game.
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If you are looking for a direct sequel to 1, skip to 3. 2 is practically unrelated, and a lot of the ill will around the game came from that not being explained

Souls 2 has the best pvp.

I played too many souls borne games within a few years, and was fatigued by the time I got to 3. So choose wisely

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As basically everyone knows at this point, Dark Souls is awesome and it's great you are finally having the traditional Dark Souls experience! It really is great. What weapon are you using?

Re DS2: I don't think the guys in charge of Dark Souls 2 quite understood what was so satisfying about Dark Souls difficulty. A lot of areas make things more difficult by just... adding more opponents. Figuring out a dudes patterns and how to exploit the weak spots in their movements is fun. Having three guys repeating the same moveset on top of eachother so you have to wait for all three of them to line up moments of opportunity for you to make a move just becomes tedious


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MariaTaylor posted...

another dumb meme with no basis in reality. dark souls 2 has more monster type bosses than dark souls 1, more bosses overall, and a similar % of armor dudes vs non armor dude bosses. the fact that this nonsense still gets repeated after years, in spite of the fact that it's easily debunked, really goes to show how pointless these discussions really are.

it's a shallow criticism because someone would only say this if they don't actually know enough about dark souls 1 and 2 to make a fair comparison.

Okay, no. DS1 does not have that many "armor guys" in it at all, unless you start getting really generous in what you throw in that category. I'm not gonna start laundry listing things in this topic, but when you boil it down vanilla DS1 has like 3 total when you're comparing it to the bosses that people complain are repetitive in DS2.

Also, the other problem is that a lot of the bosses in vanilla DS2 that don't fall into that template are either even worse or an awkward inferior take on a variety of DS1 bosses. Which is not to say that DS1 doesn't have some bad bosses. It has the single worst boss in the series. Let's just be glad we didn't get a DS2 version of that.

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kevwaffles posted...

I'm not saying the elevator ruins the game. I'm saying it's just the single sentence example people break out instead of going on 20 minute diatribes. And admittedly I was lumping world design and level design together confusedly, but that's sort of what people do, which is sort of my point.

my point is that people who can't tell the difference between level design and world design, and complain about what is essentially a loading screen as the entire basis for their argument, are making a VERY shallow argument.

kevwaffles posted...

And DeS has significantly better level design than DS2.

my kneejerk reaction is to say that this is definitely true. I mean, I love Demon's Souls. it's probably the first game I ever played as an adult that made me appreciate video games again. all that being said... Dark Souls 2 has some really amazing levels as well. the main thing holding it back is that the sheer volume of levels tends to drag the mean down to a more average level. people's opinion on these 'average' levels ultimately determines whether they love or hate dark souls 2.

think of it this way...

if I think the average dark souls 2 level is actually pretty good, and then it has some AMAZING level design in specific areas on top of that, dark souls 2 is a pretty damn great game.

if you think the average dark souls 2 level is pretty bad, then even the few amazing levels are not going to be enough to offset this feeling.

CoolCly posted...

Re DS2: I don't think the guys in charge of Dark Souls 2 quite understood what was so satisfying about Dark Souls difficulty.

honestly I don't think Miyazaki himself understands what made Demon's Souls such a great game. this is why we got Dark Souls and why it changed so many things -- for the worse. the fuck would I ever want to spend 30 minutes walking back to an area instead of warping there instantly from an Archstone? like I legitimately still, after all these years, cannot figure out what they were thinking by removing the warp feature.

I'll once again state that I do strongly agree that dark souls 2 is not a good sequel to dark souls 1, but I don't think the difficulty is the main reason.

learning to fight multiple opponents is a really awesome skill, and I'm glad I learned how to do it. it makes me feel (and probably objectively demonstrates) that I am a much more skilled player.

I don't give a rabid shit about whether or not the top of assface garden loops directly to the bottom of bullshit cavern, especially if you're not going to make me go on a lord of the rings esque hike across the countryside to get there.

but for people who masturbate to WORLD DESIGN, dark souls 1 is a great game and dark souls 2 does not even attempt to meet that standard.

kevwaffles posted...

Okay, no.

yes

kevwaffles posted...

a lot of the bosses in vanilla DS2 that don't fall into that template are either even worse or an awkward inferior take on a variety of DS1 bosses.

this is a hot take considering how crude the AI is for a lot of dark souls 1 bosses, but okay. if you truly believe that I sort of wonder when is the last time you actually played dark souls 1 or 2. because I don't think watching a giant fatass demon fly into the air and butt stomp repeatedly while I hit him 25 times to kill him is very fun. but if that's your idea of great boss design, fair enough.


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like I remember beating the Ruin Sentinels for the first time and I was just blown away by what I had accomplished after so many failed attempts. my stamina management, camera control, and understanding of my own moveset were on an entirely different level than when I started grinding against that boss.

I could not have imagined myself having been able to win an encounter like this -- even after playing demon's and dark souls for hundreds of hours prior. and then you get to stuff like throne watcher and defender. beating them at soul level 1 is still one of the most tense experiences I've ever had in a souls game. the ability to essentially win a 2 v 1 duel against such oppressive opponents is like something out of a novel. you can't get this experience in dark souls 1. there are no comparable encounters.


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I dunno. I beat Ruin Sentinels on like my second or third try. Granted, it wasn't entirely blind and DS2 was actually the last Soulsborne I played (and to answer your other thought I played it like 6 months ago), but I can't imagine having that much trouble on them if you've done O&S.

Edit: That isn't meant to insult your skill, which is how it probably came off. We all have those bosses that we get stuck on. Your reaction to it, though, is somewhat odd to me.

MariaTaylor posted...

this is a hot take considering how crude the AI is for a lot of dark souls 1 bosses, but okay. if you truly believe that I sort of wonder when is the last time you actually played dark souls 1 or 2. because I don't think watching a giant fatass demon fly into the air and butt stomp repeatedly while I hit him 25 times to kill him is very fun. but if that's your idea of great boss design, fair enough.

No, fighting the same boss 3 times is not a high point of DS1. It's budget definitely shows in places, no mistake this is one of them. But on the other hand making fun of DS1's boss AI because of Asylum Demon and saying they massively improved it in DS2 is a much hotter take when things like Covetous Demon, Prowling Magus, and a boss you can consistently get to fall out of the arena 5 seconds into the fight exist.

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Covetous Demon and Prowling Magus may not be exciting, but they have much better AI than a lot of the trash tier and even mid tier dark souls 1 bosses. it's a natural result of the developers getting more experience and understanding of how to make enemies behave with each installment.

Compare Covetous Demon to Gaping Dragon for example. now you can certainly make the case that Gaping Dragon is a much better boss for many other reasons, but the Covetous Demon has a much more refined AI cycle -- more diverse moveset -- and better understanding and reaction to the position of the player.

Complaining about Covetous Demon or Prowling Magus are, once again, shallow arguments that totally lack understanding of the elements that go into game design.

I didn't even bring up the absurdity of the fact that you fight Asylum Demon repeatedly in the game. The fact that his move set and his spatial awareness are so limited is what really makes him so much worse than even the low tier DS2 bosses. and the problems that the Asylum Demon has ARE actually symptomatic of issues with a lot of enemy design in dark souls 1 -- and even demon's souls. he's not just a 5 second loading screen.

also -- I know I am very good at these games, so don't worry about offending me with comments about my skill. it honestly doesn't make any difference to me whether you think so or not.


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I'm not sure why the Asylum Demon is being discussed so rigorously. It's simple and easy because it's an intro fight designed to ease you into the mechanics of the game. Lots of new players still get their shit kicked in by it. If the fight was anymore difficult or complicated than it already is, we might not have gotten sequels at all because tons of newcomers would just quit.

It is silly that its re-used so often, yes.

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KamikazePotato posted...

I'm not sure why the Asylum Demon is being discussed so rigorously.

MariaTaylor posted...

the problems that the Asylum Demon has ARE actually symptomatic of issues with a lot of enemy design in dark souls 1

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Game of its generation

CoolCly posted...

As basically everyone knows at this point, Dark Souls is awesome and it's great you are finally having the traditional Dark Souls experience! It really is great. What weapon are you using?

Re DS2: I don't think the guys in charge of Dark Souls 2 quite understood what was so satisfying about Dark Souls difficulty. A lot of areas make things more difficult by just... adding more opponents. Figuring out a dudes patterns and how to exploit the weak spots in their movements is fun. Having three guys repeating the same moveset on top of eachother so you have to wait for all three of them to line up moments of opportunity for you to make a move just becomes tedious

Right now Im using the black knight sword (+5 I think, though Id have to go look). Have the claymore upgraded to +10 also.

Got through the Great Hollow, pretty sure I got almost all the items, but those damn crystal lizards disappear before I can get to them. Killed two though.

Entered the Ash Lake, and of course another fucking hydra is here. Got rid of him a bit easier, as there was no crystal golems to fight while getting water cannoned. Also, these weird clam monsters can drop twinkling titanite?! Damn! Ended up falling off the ledge of a branch and stopped for the day as I didnt have much time, so next time Ill retrieve my souls and keep exploring. Also found at least like, 3 or 4 dragon scales

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Maria sure hates arguing about dark souls 2

Also the bottom line is Belfry Luna is the most fun area in any dark souls game (although 3 has that kind of gameplay too)

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foolm0r0n posted...

Maria sure hates arguing about dark souls 2

do I seem like I'm having fun? if anything this is a good example of exactly why it's so annoying.

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mccheyne posted...

Right now Im using the black knight sword (+5 I think, though Id have to go look). Have the claymore upgraded to +10 also.

Nice, these were the exact weapons I used in my playthrough too.

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Claymore is such a solid, dependable weapon.

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MariaTaylor posted...

Covetous Demon and Prowling Magus may not be exciting, but they have much better AI than a lot of the trash tier and even mid tier dark souls 1 bosses. it's a natural result of the developers getting more experience and understanding of how to make enemies behave with each installment.

Compare Covetous Demon to Gaping Dragon for example. now you can certainly make the case that Gaping Dragon is a much better boss for many other reasons, but the Covetous Demon has a much more refined AI cycle -- more diverse moveset -- and better understanding and reaction to the position of the player.

Complaining about Covetous Demon or Prowling Magus are, once again, shallow arguments that totally lack understanding of the elements that go into game design.

I didn't even bring up the absurdity of the fact that you fight Asylum Demon repeatedly in the game. The fact that his move set and his spatial awareness are so limited is what really makes him so much worse than even the low tier DS2 bosses. and the problems that the Asylum Demon has ARE actually symptomatic of issues with a lot of enemy design in dark souls 1 -- and even demon's souls. he's not just a 5 second loading screen.

also -- I know I am very good at these games, so don't worry about offending me with comments about my skill. it honestly doesn't make any difference to me whether you think so or not.

Dude, you can easily bait a move where Covetous Demon rolls on his back and does nothing for like 7 seconds repeatedly. Setting aside that the rest of his moveset is garbage too, I'm not sure how this is fine to you but Asylum Demon being baited into doing a move that might actually hit you if you get greedy is somehow the bane of all of the AI in DS1.

Prowling Magus, assuming you even give him a chance to attack, casts fairly slow dark orbs and has a small AoE. When you get somewhat close to him, he will either back up to cast or try to slowly run to you and use that AoE, often out of range of actually hitting you. They add in a bunch of trash mobs that die in 1-2 hits and a few casters that die in 2-3 to try and hide the fact that this is literally all he does, but their AI is also so rudimentary that the only way they are a threat is if you just rush into the middle of them yourself before ever attacking. I can't believe someone is trying to defend Prowling Magus compared to anything, including the rest of its own game. Unlike all of both my and your other examples, no manipulation is required to even see the full extent of how bad this one is. It's just that bad.

(And somehow you never honed in on Pinwheel. I find that odd.)

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Black Knight weapons are absurdly good in DS1. At least according to what I know/heard. I've never actually used one myself.

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I don't even know how to respond to that post honestly

when I specifically say 'compare covetous demon to gaping dragon' and you keep talking about asylum demon, while somehow also missing the entire point of why I brought up asylum demon or what my exact criticisms with him were, and of course if I take more than 10 seconds to explain the same thing to you again the only response I'll get from the fucking vegetables in the peanut gallery is

wHy ArE wE sTiLl TaLkInG aBoUt ThE aSyLuM dEmOn

honestly, it's not worth the hassle. just say that I gave up and you 'won' the argument.


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Im thinking of turning the claymore into a magic or divine weapon, for special purposes (mainly those respawning skeletons in the catacombs, as I have to go there eventually). Then I still have the black knight sword to get me through things, or the uchigatana if quicker slashes are needed. Out doing errands, will play in a couple hours. Hoping to finish up ash lake and whatever else is there

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MariaTaylor posted...

wHy ArE wE sTiLl TaLkInG aBoUt ThE aSyLuM dEmOn

I dunno, maybe don't claim he's "symptomatic of issues with a lot of enemy design in dark souls 1" if you didn't want to make it the main basis of your argument or have his problems compared to anything in DS2? That's a pretty strong statement to make twice and then to then never want to make a direct comparison between Asylum Demon and anything else.

(Also Covetous Demon has like 4 moves total and is only moderately comparable at best to Gaping Dragon so I would probably think you were trolling me if you weren't getting so upset about this.)

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mccheyne posted...

Im thinking of turning the claymore into a magic or divine weapon, for special purposes (mainly those respawning skeletons in the catacombs, as I have to go there eventually). Then I still have the black knight sword to get me through things, or the uchigatana if quicker slashes are needed. Out doing errands, will play in a couple hours. Hoping to finish up ash lake and whatever else is there

I'm not sure why you know about that, but since you know that much I'll clarify that only Divine does what you're looking for in that respect.

I also wouldn't make your main weapon Divine or Magic if your build isn't really focused around that. You can always use a second weapon for that purpose.

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kevwaffles posted...

I'm not sure why you know about that, but since you know that much I'll clarify that only Divine does what you're looking for in that respect.

I also wouldn't make your main weapon Divine or Magic if your build isn't really focused around that. You can always use a second weapon for that purpose.

I took a trip down there a while back by accident, and they kept getting back up. I assumed that was either because something in there is raising them somehow, or I need a special weapon of some sort to keep them down. Divine seems more likely. It was mainly a hunch, though I thought it a good probability of being true

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mccheyne posted...

Divine seems more likely. It was mainly a hunch, though I thought it a good probability of being true

Your hunch is correct.

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Oh, well then I spelled out too much for you. Whoops!

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Actually, if you talk with the blacksmith by the church enough he basically tells you that's how to deal with the catacombs at some point. Or some NPC does at least.

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kevwaffles posted...

I would probably think you were trolling me if you weren't getting so upset about this.

sounds good, let's go with that.

it's easier and more productive than me trying to explain game mechanics to a cabbage.


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