Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 494: But The Stock Is Up!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Eddv posted...

Here's the thing:

Last year you could have put the word "Drew" in place of "Cesaro" and no one would have objected.

categorically disagree. they've not done a lot with Drew since bringing him back, but that goes both ways. He's not had big moments or wins, but he has been protected, they clearly have always had a vision for him. He got a bit lost in the midcard for a while there, especially when he was one of the Corbin lackeys in that dreadful feud with Rollins, but even then he was a protected guy. I do not think it's correct to say that he was already defined as a guy who would never main event - much the opposite, I think it was clear to anybody paying attention that they had main event aspirations for him.

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Steiner posted...

categorically disagree. they've not done a lot with Drew since bringing him back, but that goes both ways. He's not had big moments or wins, but he has been protected, they clearly have always had a vision for him. He got a bit lost in the midcard for a while there, especially when he was one of the Corbin lackeys in that dreadful feud with Rollins, but even then he was a protected guy. I do not think it's correct to say that he was already defined as a guy who would never main event - much the opposite, I think it was clear to anybody paying attention that they had main event aspirations for him.

There was that time last summer when he lost to Roman right after Shane PINNED Roman, but Shane is a cut above I guess
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Jakyl25 posted...

There was that time last summer when he lost to Roman right after Shane PINNED Roman, but Shane is a cut above I guess

obviously roman also beat him at mania - is that all his clean pins?

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Steiner posted...

obviously roman also beat him at mania - is that all his clean pins?

Since he came back to WWE, hes been pinned 9 times in singles matches

Andrade pinned him for the NXT Title
Roman pinned him twice on PPV
Balor pinned him on PPV
Hes been pinned on Raw by Dolph, Seth, Cedric, and Ricochet
Owens pinned him on SD

How many of those were clean? Who the fuck knows
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ah, i remembered the ricochet series after i posted that, but i definitely forgot the balor and owens ones. i do remember now us all being bewildered dolph got a pin on him. i think it's reasonable to say he is a guy they wanted to protect, but that they fucking suck at that lol

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I remember people thinking that Cedric pinning Drew on a fluke meant Cedric was in line for a big push

Whoops
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NBIceman posted...

This is precisely why people like Brock, though. WWE for years has only had two kinds of wrestler. The first is the John Cena or Roman Reigns that is pushed far above everyone else's level while the company constantly insists they're the underdog. The second is the category everyone else on the roster falls into, where regardless of the situation they're more or less presented to be completely evenly matched with whoever they're feuding with at the time.

Brock breaks this rule. It's something different that gives people a breather from the sterile look and feel of the rest of the WWE brand and actually resembles something like pro wrestling.

"Something different" after what, five years he's been doing the exact same "I don't even show up because it's not worth my time and I'm so good it's a plot hole if I lose" routine? When the one guy who supposedly is a star literally doesn't even show up most of the time, that pretty much explicitly tells you not to bother watching. The only guy who isn't shit doesn't even pretend to think the show is worth it!

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Balor and Ziggler both interfered in the other's match, for what it's worth.

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Panthera posted...

"Something different" after what, five years he's been doing the exact same "I don't even show up because it's not worth my time and I'm so good it's a plot hole if I lose" routine? When the one guy who supposedly is a star literally doesn't even show up most of the time, that pretty much explicitly tells you not to bother watching. The only guy who isn't shit doesn't even pretend to think the show is worth it!

I don't necessarily disagree, but that's a separate issue from what I was responding to.

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Steiner posted...

I do not think it's correct to say that he was already defined as a guy who would never main event - much the opposite, I think it was clear to anybody paying attention that they had main event aspirations for him.

I don't agree with this and am hesitant to take lectures on paying attention from a guy who self-admittedly doesn't watch the product often (granted I also have this problem but I do feel that of the two of us I've watched more WWE in the time Drew has been around)

I think Eddv's Cesaro comparison is apt. Well, Cesaro circa like 2016, but still, never really felt like he was going anywhere. Hasn't been thoroughly ruined so the run is credible, but like, without the Rumble win being known do I feel he's doing anything relevant any time this year? Probably not.

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Sorry my hatred of everything pertaining to Brock clouds my mind sometimes

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Steiner posted...

our disconnect is probably over the idea that any one of the 13 dudes brock threw out should ever be on his level. not one of those dudes is a Mania main eventer, or big time potential star.

well for starters one of them literally won the world title last mania but you are BLINDED BY HATE :(

but yeah most of those guys could have been, have been, or still could be, big, I think. We were all on Elias and Braun's nuts in recent memory. Folks want Big E to be the breakout New Day star. Kofi already WAS the breakout New Day star. Keith got the big future star push at SurSer and seems to tick all the boxes. Shelton and MVP will never get the big push at this point and that's a shame. Morrison is now officially in that category as well I think, and maybe Cesaro as well. Ricochet could for sure be the next Rey. Rey himself...yeah ok that's a good one to feed Brock.

Steiner posted...

they're mostly guys who have already been defined, by wwe over the years, as geeks we shouldn't care about. Now, you can fault the booking that got us to this point, which i do all the time,

that is like 90% of what I am saying, yes
they painted themselves into a corner where Brock had to bury a bunch of guys that deserved better
I think the first time around I even said that the execution was pretty good, just the initial idea I hated

Steiner posted...

you're blinded by your hate for brock here man,

I like brock okay, I'm just tired of him being the only guy that matters ever (and being part-time while doing so)

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Lopen posted...

Steiner posted...

I do not think it's correct to say that he was already defined as a guy who would never main event - much the opposite, I think it was clear to anybody paying attention that they had main event aspirations for him.

I don't agree with this and am hesitant to take lectures on paying attention from a guy who self-admittedly doesn't watch the product often (granted I also have this problem but I do feel that of the two of us I've watched more WWE in the time Drew has been around)

I think Eddv's Cesaro comparison is apt. Well, Cesaro circa like 2016, but still, never really felt like he was going anywhere. Hasn't been thoroughly ruined so the run is credible, but like, without the Rumble win being known do I feel he's doing anything relevant any time this year? Probably not.

I didn't mean to lecture anybody about paying attention, my thinking more specifically was that if you just see the results and bigger direction of the show it's easy to think they're doing nothing with Drew, but if you look at the actual booking patterns and positioning he is treated very differently to, eg, Cesaro. (for what it's worth, there's never been a week I don't listen to 7 hours or more of podcasts about raw and smackdown so I don't think I'm missing a lot not having watched most of last year - and Drew is always one of the most talked about guys on those podcasts)
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Tom Bombadil posted...

We were all on Elias and Braun's nuts in recent memory.

[citation needed]

Folks want Big E to be the breakout New Day star. Kofi already WAS the breakout New Day star.

this is why it's good that they looked so good against brock, thanks to his wonderful selling

Keith got the big future star push at SurSer and seems to tick all the boxes.

and was made to look like more of a beast than anyone but drew and lesnar, in one of his first appearances to most of the audience

Shelton and MVP will never get the big push at this point and that's a shame. Morrison is now officially in that category as well I think, and maybe Cesaro as well. Ricochet could for sure be the next Rey. Rey himself...yeah ok that's a good one to feed Brock.

disagree that it is a shame that at this point, shelton, mvp or morrison aren't going to get pushed. none of them should be doing anything serious.


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and hell, braun also was made to look strong in the rumble, even if i couldn't care less about him.

elias though is my least favourite wwe act right now, definitely my least favourite since jinder was champ but i might like him even less than jinder at this point.

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Ill be the citation for Braun

Im not sure anyone really ever wanted Elias to be more than he is, we just supported him getting screen time consistently to be him.
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yeah i'm messing with the braun stuff, i was put in a hard position from tom saying them together.

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Steiner posted...

[citation needed]

man what

Steiner posted...

they looked so good against brock

man what

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Also I think theres a fair story to be told about Brock being a horrible matchup for Braun because he has everything Braun has in kayfabe but hes ALSO smarter, quicker, more experienced, and better trained. Braun really has zero edge there.

But WWE doesnt actually tell coherent stories
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I mean, I think Drew has been booked similarly, to again, Cesaro of say 2016, or countless other midcarders/upper midcarders who never really ended up doing anything but had some minor protection. What have they done with Samoa Joe. What have they done with Braun Strowman. What have they done with Bobby Lashley. Etc etc. I mean I wouldn't call him similar to 2019 Cesaro who was thoroughly dead I suppose, but would I have assumed McIntyre couldn't eventually become that a few years down the line? No.

Like, he's being protected to some minor measure, certainly, but there's no real reason to assume he wouldn't continue languish like the likes of a Cesaro of yore eventually ultimately ended up doing before having seen the Rumble.

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Tom Bombadil posted...

[citation needed]

man what

genuinely - are you telling me you think there's value to elias?

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I think theres value to Elias. Not as a damn BABYFACE though jeez WWE
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I don't have a strong opinion on Elias but I have generally been entertained when he's around, and APWT seemed to like him when he was doing things. Based on my limited exposure I'd buy a main event push for him sure, although he wouldn't be my first choice.

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ah, i legitimately think he's the worst thing they have going

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Elias has some supporters to be sure but I don't really think they were here in any sort of number at any point. You've got a lot more people here that hate the guy.

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Elias gets actual heel heat, where someone can get over by beating him

Saying theres no value in Elias is like saying theres no value in Honky Tonk Man
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Jakyl25 posted...

Elias gets actual heel heat, where someone can get over by beating him

Saying theres no value in Elias is like saying theres no value in Honky Tonk Man

this is true, in this sense of the term there is value to him. i guess i should have only said that he is complete anathema for me, as a babyface or a heel i just do not want to see his act and i even less want to see him get in the ring

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It definitely doesnt help to realize that WWE doesnt actually know how to get anyone over
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https://twitter.com/WalterAUT/status/1224770341874040835

poor fabian

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Steiner posted...

ah, i legitimately think he's the worst thing they have going

More than The Fiend?

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at least the fiend is selling a bunch of merchandise i guess.... but i'll admit you've put me in a tricky position there. god there is some bad stuff on wwe huh

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Just curious: is it just The Fiend or the entire Firefly Fun House?

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Jakyl25 posted...

Elias gets actual heel heat, where someone can get over by beating him

Saying theres no value in Elias is like saying theres no value in Honky Tonk Man

I'd personally argue Honky Tonk Man doesn't exist as a useful commodity in 2020 with the formulaic way WWE books matches and feuds.

That's not to say Elias doesn't have use but it's all theorycraft. Or in other words:

Jakyl25 posted...

It definitely doesnt help to realize that WWE doesnt actually know how to get anyone over

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TheRock1525 posted...

Just curious: is it just The Fiend or the entire Firefly Fun House?

I kinda like the funhouse stuff, it's definitely the fiend who sucks the most
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So let's talk about AEW cause it hasn't gotten much talk in here lately.

I think I'm starting to fall into the Scarlet/Iceman camp of being a bit disillusioned with it. The booking is starting to fall into a lot of the common WWE tropes. The most glaring one is I notice we're getting more and more people randomly popping up in matches, distraction finishes basically. I hate distraction finishes. Joey Janela vs MJF was just a gross affair with Kip Sabian and that girl showing up to make out and do nothing else but make Janela hesitate, but it's been happening more and more often lately.

Now on what may be the more nitpicky end to some, we've got Moxley vs PAC for the number one contendership, with Moxley wrestling the match with literally one eye and still being the winner-- this is WWE main event babyface style tripe at its worst. I realize Moxley vs Jericho is the real money match here and that you don't wanna run heel vs heel on a PPV nor do you wanna turn PAC or Jericho, but PAC vs Jericho to take place, for whatever reason you can make up, before the next PPV as Dynamite filler? I see this being a really good way to kill a couple more weeks between the PPV, and you can always put Moxley back into the picture closer to when the PPV takes place when his eye has healed up-- you don't hurt him at all by saying he can't beat PAC when he's wrestling with one eye. You do however hurt PAC who at one point was at a level where he could credibly wrestle Moxley to a draw. You also remove a potential interesting contender for Moxley's title (assuming he beats Jericho, which he probably should) by putting PAC so clearly beneath him.

Now I realize the story is that PAC was put off is game due to the ship hurting his flying, but I just don't like it-- to be sure I'm not buying PAC as a main event type guy any time soon, and you need more than Jericho and Moxley at your top rung.

I dunno it's just a bit worrying to me. I was really hoping we'd be getting an alternate product throughout. WWE with slightly more competent storylines and better matches isn't really what I was hoping for. A more dynamic product that really uses the whole record thing to change up how feud structuring works is what I was hoping for, and it doesn't really seem to be doing that as we settle more and more into what the card positions are. Did it seem less that way at first because the card hierarchy hadn't settled in yet, or is it just getting lazy as time goes on? I'm not sure.

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I'll be honest - I don't put a lot of heavy thought into fantasy booking AEW.

I enjoy what I'm seeing and I assume I will continue to do so.

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I mean it was super clear in the match that PAC couldn't do his top rope stuff and it definitely let Moxley escape a couple points where PAC may have ended it. Like he would try and climb up and be completely unable to get his balance. So it certainly evened it up a little though PAC definitely had the advantage.

I was disappointed in the result but very glad when they made a real point of the ship messing him up during the next episode.

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I also didn't like Brock killing half the Rumble because I'm always on the idea that people should actually matter in WWE and nobody matters from Brock or I guess Drew now who while it seems like he's being booked well, I have zero faith they don't just screw him up entirely like every other babyface they have.

Like, I was happy to see Drew eliminate him and win because at least it's somebody new, but I have to temper my joy because it's WWE and I know how they operate.

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Right, but the argument is that if Brock didn't matter it doesn't magically mean everybody else would start getting booked in a manner that makes them matter. It's just that no one would matter anymore. One is still more than zero.

It'd be great if it wasn't a binary choice but that's the hand WWE deals these days.

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I mean I don't think too hard about fantasy booking AEW either it's more when they have a "why are they doing a WWE thing" that my mind wanders.

I mean yes PAC has an excuse but the point is he should have had an edge to begin with to outweigh that imo.

Also that I want to see more heel vs heel or other such unexpected encounters driven entirely by rankings which the longer it goes the more doubt I have that we're going to get those, which kinda sucks. I feel like we're never actually going to get to see PAC vs Jericho despite the rankings teasing it could have been a thing since well basically since the start of the show.

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Remember when I said AEW was starting to feel a little too much like WWE and most of the topic was like "You're dumb SEP"

SEPperidge Farm remembers.

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I don't remember that but if it was later than the first episode I had already gotten on that soapbox.

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StealThisSheen posted...

Remember when I said AEW was starting to feel a little too much like WWE and most of the topic was like "You're dumb SEP"

SEPperidge Farm remembers.

Didn't I say it first?

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Like I thought I said something like "AEW is good WWE and NXT is good ROH."

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It definitely does not feel like WWE to me. It feels like 1998 WCW.

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scarletspeed7 posted...

It definitely does not feel like WWE to me. It feels like 1998 WCW.

Theres not 15 versions of The Inner Circle, though.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Theres not 15 versions of The Inner Circle, though.

yet

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Speaking of bad RoH I almost forgot I have those tickets to the free show this weekend

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Maybe it was because in the same posts I said I was starting to choose NXT over it

But I started complaining about all the interference and rankings seeming irrelevant/random and crap like "Look at these celebrities in the crowd" spots and people were like "no sep YOU are the wwe"

And then I was wwe

And it was a sad day.

And then I made Corbin the King as punishment.

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Like I said I don't remember you saying any of that and/or getting shouted down for it, but if it makes you feel better I was definitely saying similar things from literally the first episode.

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