Poll of the Day > What martial arts school gives black belts to 14 year olds?

(+) Yeah! (+)

My boss at my new job CONSTANTLY brags about her children. One of them is a second degree black belt, and as shes telling me this, Im thinking its just an empty boast.

Dont most reputable martial arts schools wait a very long time to give these out? I remember a teacher at school yeeeeeaaaarrrrs ago telling me that any place that just hands them out is doing so for money.

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You could test every 6 months and pass every time. If he started from 9 he could be black belt, I suppose.
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Maybe her kids school is a Mcdojo?

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Cobra Kai

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Seems pretty strong opinions on the net about this. Many think if teens that age can earn them, they're not worth true black belts.

Most places won't hand them out at that age, instead handing out "poom certificates"

Zangulus posted...

Arent black belts like pretty low level for a lot of martial arts?

They're middle. You go through colours (Kyu) then through rankings (Dan). I think this means the kid is 2nd Dan.
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A lot of the martial arts programs for youth are just scams where the parents are charged money for the belts

having a black belt in tae kwan do usually just means youve been in the school for a few years and your parents havent missed any payments for gear/ceremonies

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PMarth2002 posted...

Maybe her kids school is a Mcdojo?

Was coming in to say this.

And post this:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/McDojo
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Overlooking the McDojo element, it's not like black belts necessarily convey actual fighting ability anyway. Somebody could train and actually earn their black belt while being young and relatively weak.

PK_Spam posted...

Dont most reputable martial arts schools wait a very long time to give these out?

"Reputable martial arts school" is something of an oxymoron and most of the ones handing out belts are going to be kinda sketchy.


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PK_Spam posted...

Dont most reputable martial arts schools wait a very long time to give these out?

Some give them to 9 year olds as far as I know. It doesn't mean much as it's still a 9 year old. Still all a black belt means in these cases is that the child, according to the grading system and requirements of that school, has achieved a certain level of proficiency and understanding of the art. Nothing more and nothing less. It doesn't mean they have reached a level of expertise or mastery.

I guess if this mum wants to brag about her kid achieving that level that's fine and it's natural for parents to be proud of their kids but to the rest of the world it's a "meh".

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A school that likes to sell lots of belts.

My mom made me do tae kwan do as a kid. I was a tall kid so I had to go easy on the higher belts in sparring. Felt silly tbh if I could take a black belt my age in my test.

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PK_Spam posted...

Dont most reputable martial arts schools wait a very long time to give these out?

Depends entirely on the school.

A black belt is just a belt - there's no standard accreditation for it, so there's no universal standard for what quality of technique is required for it. It all depends on what the school expects out of its black belts.

In my kobudo dojo, a first-degree black belt is a mark of basic proficiency - you can easily earn it 2-3 years after starting and it's not uncommon for people to grade directly from white belt to black belt. By contrast, in my karate dojo a black belt is a mark of a high level of knowledge and skill; it usually takes close to a decade of solid training to earn one. Neither of those approaches is "wrong", it just indicates that the two different styles have their black belts signifying different levels of progress.

To answer your question, if a second-degree black belt is something that a 14 year old can earn, it probably doesn't indicate a very advanced level of progress in that school. Either that or that school is a scam trying to wring as much money as it can out of its students (frequent testing is one symptom of a belt factory that is mostly in it to earn cash).

Kyuubi4269 posted...

They're middle. You go through colours (Kyu) then through rankings (Dan). I think this means the kid is 2nd Dan.

Not quite correct. Not all martial arts use kyu rankings. Sometimes dan rankings are all you have. In iaido, for instance, you're either a mudansha (no rank) or you have a dan rank; there's no such thing as kyu rankings.

The kyu/dan colour/black belt division originated in judo and was popularized by karate, but it's far from universal.

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Bah, at Tkane's martial arts school in the bay area, we competed and classes were held every day (including the weekends). If you paid the monthly fee you could (and many did) attend classes every day.

The school actually taught, and competed in 4 different styles (karate/kung fu/taekwando/judo), and you could take classes from multi styles with one monthly subscription. Many kids would go there after school every day and do multiple classes.

The tests for a higher belt were pretty hard, and many failed multiple times, even so there were certainly quite a few black belts by their mid teens. The school did quite well in the competitions.

It looks like the schools are still there but don't offer as many options anymore (do offer kickboxing now, which I had to do at the YMCA back when I was a kid...they didn't have it at Tkane's.

Anyway, average time to a black belt if you go to 3 classes a week is about 5 years. If you go 5 days a week, and you are above average (most students at the school were), it's more like 3 years. I believe if I remember right there were a few 10 year olds with brown or black belts in fact (don't believe they could compete at that age, but they still had to fight another student, do the katas etc to advance a belt).

Many students at the school started quite young, and it was considered a competition much like studying for the olympics etc. There were 5 and 6 year old starting students (Believe even a class for very young ones). It was a very good school.

Here is the link to the current school but it's in castro valley now....probably all new teachers since I went like 35+ years ago lol.

http://www.t-kanes.com/

Oh!! I looked on their site and they still teach 4 styles, they just replaced judo with Kick Boxing. Actually Judo was my favorite lol....but I also really liked kick boxing, so over all I guess it's a better choice for competitions, if they still compete (not sure if they even can in Castro valley).

Only school I ever went to that taught 4 styles, and i'm glad they still do. Was a great school....sad it's no longer in the same area I was (hayward CA I think it was).

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It depends upon the type of martial arts.

It takes a lot longer to become a blackbelt in Karate than it does Taekwondo.

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Its only real martial arts if you find a master cave hermit in some mountain and convince him to train you.

Bragging about your kids having a black belt is nice and all but I remember when I was in grade 9 I believe, some kid had brown belt or something and always talked about it like he was hot s*** all the time. Long story short I easily took him out one day after school and that was the end of his bragging. Meh

dedbus posted...

Its only real martial arts if you find a master cave hermit in some mountain and convince him to train you.

What about a turtle hermit?

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xjayguyx posted...

Long story short I easily took him out one day after school and that was the end of his bragging.

You make me proud, Son.


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wwinterj25 posted...

You make me proud, Son.

Thank you for teaching me to defend myself dad :)

Black belt traditionally marks the journeyman level, where you can teach independently. 6-8 years, mastering 15-20 full-length katas/forms and 10-15 weapons, self-defense techniques, sparring, supervised teaching hours, success in tournaments.

I'm not real impressed with what commonly passes today as "Black belt", nor can I imagine 6 to 14 year olds achieving the equivalent of a university Masters degree.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

They're middle. You go through colours (Kyu) then through rankings (Dan). I think this means the kid is 2nd Dan.

what rank is Lt dan?

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dancer62 posted...

Black belt traditionally marks the journeyman level, where you can teach independently. 6-8 years, mastering 15-20 full-length katas/forms and 10-15 weapons, self-defense techniques, sparring, supervised teaching hours, success in tournaments.

This varies wildly from school to school and from martial art to martial art. You're ascribing a common standard where none exists - there is no universal accreditation that stipulates what a black belt must be capable of.

To use your degree analogy, in many Okinawan kobudo styles a black belt is like a high school diploma - a mark of basic proficiency. In the particular style of karate I practice, a black belt is like a PhD (you actually have to write a dissertation on martial arts philosophy and application as part of your test), though even staying within karate there's wild variation in terms of what is acceptable.

Also, your standards also seem a bit wonky, given that a lot of what you're stipulating isn't practised in a lot of martial arts - for instance, traditional karate does not use weapons, there are no forms or tournaments in arts like iaido or kyudo, so on and so forth. And for the record, unless you have a substantially different definition of mastery than I do, there is absolutely no way in hell you are "mastering" 10-15 weapons in just eight years. I've been training in kobudo for more almost 20 years now, run my own dojo, and I can use nine weapons with at least some level of proficiency - I wouldn't consider myself a master at any of them. Hell, there are people who spend lifetimes just mastering a single weapon, nevermind a dozen of them.

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I thought a McDojo was going to be a dojo sponsored by McDonalds.

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The most lethal martial art. They can explode a heart without leaving a scratch.

A black belt just means you have mastered all of the techniques, and says nothing about actual talent.

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Lokarin posted...

A black belt just means you have mastered all of the techniques

I don't know of any martial art where that is true.

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darkknight109 posted...

I don't know of any martial art where that is true.

Well it's true of all of them.

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How legit your belt rank is, is completely dependent on the school you're at. Even Joe Rogan will slight the belts some guys in the ufc have, by saying that so-and-so has a legit whatever degree black belt in bjj. He won't directly call out fighters for having gotten an easy black belt, but does elude to the fact that some of them have bullshit belts.

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dragon504 posted...

How legit your belt rank is, is completely dependent on the school you're at. Even Joe Rogan will slight the belts some guys in the ufc have, by saying that so-and-so has a legit whatever degree black belt in bjj. He won't directly call out fighters for having gotten an easy black belt, but does elude to the fact that some of them have bullshit belts.

That's an oxymoron.
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Revelation34 posted...

That's an oxymoron.

No, there's definitely such a thing as an easy black belt.

Shitty schools where you can buy your rank absolutely exist. I frequently wind up judging tournaments where they compete and get their asses kicked.

Lokarin posted...

Well it's true of all of them.

No, it's not.

Frequently, you don't even know all of the "techniques" (whatever you mean by that term) by the time you've hit black belt, nevermind mastered them.

I've been in martial arts for almost 30 years; I've literally never run into a school that fits your description.

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Ogurisama posted...

What about a turtle hermit?

https://gfycat.com/safeelasticgrouse

darkknight109 posted...

No, it's not.

Frequently, you don't even know all of the "techniques" (whatever you mean by that term) by the time you've hit black belt, nevermind mastered them.

I've been in martial arts for almost 30 years; I've literally never run into a school that fits your description.

Whereas all the ones I've seen do. Maybe it's just an American thing

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dedbus posted...

Its only real martial arts if you find a master cave hermit in some mountain and convince him to train you.

I don't think that makes you good at martial arts though, it just means you want to be left alone

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Lokarin posted...

Whereas all the ones I've seen do. Maybe it's just an American thing

I'm president of a North American martial arts federation, which includes American branch schools.

You are straight-up wrong about this.

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darkknight109 posted...

I'm president of a North American martial arts federation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prw2B_03IzY
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Revelation34 posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prw2B_03IzY

https://imgur.com/a/hYpBxS4

Rough Translation:

"Appointment Certificate

[darkknight109]

The above-mentioned individual is hereby named branch president of the North American branch from the period of September 16, 2018 to May 21, 2021

Ryukyu Kobudo [our school's name] Association
President [our head sensei's name]"

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darkknight109 posted...

I'm president of a North American martial arts federation, which includes American branch schools.

You are straight-up wrong about this.

Maybe that means you're a bad president?

Let's get some third party verification

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Lokarin posted...

Maybe that means you're a bad president?

Let's get some third party verification

I mean... don't know what to tell you - I can rattle off a list of martial arts where you continue to learn techniques beyond black belt level.

If you already mastered all the techniques by the time you reach black belt, what would there be to learn? Also, how would you expect to reach black belt unless you've been training for decades?

FWIW, Gichin Funakoshi - one of the founding fathers of karate - once famously held a class with some of his most senior students just a few months before his death at age 89, after a lifetime of training in an art he was widely considered a consummate master of. He performed a soto uke - a block you would typically learn in your first few classes of karate - and remarked, "I believe I might finally be beginning to understand this technique."

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Have your child beat her child in a fight.

Its the only way to shut her up.

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Well then, let's ask reddit!?

Perhaps the solution is a combination of our two points of views

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darkknight109 posted...

FWIW, Gichin Funakoshi - one of the founding fathers of karate - once famously held a class with some of his most senior students just a few months before his death at age 89, after a lifetime of training in an art he was widely considered a consummate master of. He performed a soto uke - a block you would typically learn in your first few classes of karate - and remarked, "I believe I might finally be beginning to understand this technique."

He was just flexing on all the kiddies who gave him no need to block in 89 years.
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darkknight109 posted...

To answer your question, if a second-degree black belt is something that a 14 year old can earn, it probably doesn't indicate a very advanced level of progress in that school. Either that or that school is a scam trying to wring as much money as it can out of its students (frequent testing is one symptom of a belt factory that is mostly in it to earn cash).

What if they had been training from a young age or are a prodigy?

dedbus posted...

Its only real martial arts if you find a master cave hermit in some mountain and convince him to train you.

And if the training doesn't include meditating under a waterfall, you're really just doing their chores.

thekingoftown posted...

I don't think that makes you good at martial arts though, it just means you want to be left alone

tbh, it is hard to judge combat proficiency if you never see other people who you could fight.

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Zeus posted...

What if they had been training from a young age or are a prodigy?

Well, as mentioned, a black belt (or any rank, for that matter) can signify whatever state of progress you want. 14 year old prodigy? Average 14 year old? 14 year old who started training six months ago? Sure, whatever. It's all set out by whichever person/organization runs the school. If they want to give a black belt to a four year old so they can get some free advertising from the local papers talking about "the World's Youngest Black Belt", that's their call.

I will say that for a lot of the schools where a second-degree black belt represents a high level of progress they straight-up won't allow you to get a second-degree black belt (or even a first-degree) at age 14, because they want to be sure you have the emotional maturity to handle the rank. In my karate dojo, minimum age for a first-degree black belt is 17 (as far as I know, I'm still the record-holder in my dojo for youngest black belt - I was ready for my test before I turned 17 and I tested 8 days after my 17th birthday); in my kobudo dojo, minimum age for a first-degree black belt is 18 and second-degree is 21.

Lokarin posted...

Well then, let's ask reddit!?

If that's where you want to seek your info, go nuts.

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darkknight109 posted...

If that's where you want to seek your info, go nuts.

Could ask Fark, or Snopes, or Ebaumsworld or Wikipedia or Amazon... lots of options

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Lokarin posted...

Could ask Fark, or Snopes, or Ebaumsworld or Wikipedia or Amazon... lots of options

Where you choose to look up your info is entirely up to you. Whatever satisfies your curiosity.

I already have firsthand knowledge of the topic of conversation, so at this point this is entirely up to you how much you care to research the subject.

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darkknight109 posted...

Where you choose to look up your info is entirely up to you. Whatever satisfies your curiosity.

I already have firsthand knowledge of the topic of conversation, so at this point this is entirely up to you how much you care to research the subject.

It looks like most sources agree with you; so I guess my position was just related to small reference pools.

Interesting other facts: In Japanese culture, a black belt permits a student to teach other students within a classroom... neat

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