Poll of the Day > The senate will in control of what people see in the impeachment trial.

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GanonsSpirit
01/21/20 4:34:39 PM
#51:


darkknight109 posted...

What exactly was unfair about what the House did?

They impeached his god-emperor.
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Amuseum
01/21/20 5:07:50 PM
#52:


He was the leader of opposition party. Clearly heading toward one party communist regime.
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adjl
01/21/20 5:20:36 PM
#53:


The_tall_midget posted...
What's the matter? Not enough pen ceremonies and hypocritical house representatives laughing and having fun off screen during such a "serious" and "somber" moment for you?

Want ridiculous? How about campaign organizers "joking" about throwing people in re-education camps, or sending them in gulags? Or outright killing everyone who disagrees with their communist garbage?

I'm pretty sure math is the matter. There are significantly fewer than 48 total hours (24 per side) available if you're starting after 1 pm on each of two days. The most that is physically possible is 22 hours, and that's assuming they go right to midnight on both days (which isn't the most reasonable expectation as far as scheduling goes). You can squeeze more out of it by going past midnight and into the next day, since "sessions start at 1 pm" doesn't necessarily mean there can't be anything happening in the early morning that bled over from the previous day, but that still won't count as "over two days" if it happens again on day 2, and that's even less of a reasonable expectation. And even then that's going to be less than 48.

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Jen0125
01/21/20 5:43:04 PM
#54:


And now Senate Republicans are predictably rejecting any request to consider factual evidence or allow subpoenas to occur.

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darkknight109
01/21/20 5:45:45 PM
#55:


Jen0125 posted...
And now Senate Republicans are predictably rejecting any request to consider factual evidence or allow subpoenas to occur.
Makes sense to me. I mean, obviously when someone is innocent you want to make sure that you can't present any evidence to exonerate them or hear from anyone who can testify as to how totally non-criminal their conduct was.

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Mead
01/21/20 5:46:16 PM
#56:


Everyone knows that you cant have evidence or witnesses at a trial

they ruin it

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Judgmenl
01/21/20 6:46:56 PM
#57:


Evidence isn't allowed, it allows for a fair trial and who would want that?

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Judgmenl
01/21/20 7:14:55 PM
#58:


I'd love to see a President Adam Schiff.

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Amuseum
01/21/20 7:42:11 PM
#59:


like seditionists have the intellectual integrity to properly interpret the evidence anyway. any evidence or testimony will be twisted and misinterpreted to fit their agenda.
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adjl
01/21/20 8:27:02 PM
#60:


Amuseum posted...
like seditionists have the intellectual integrity to properly interpret the evidence anyway. any evidence or testimony will be twisted and misinterpreted to fit their agenda.

All the more reason to have the trial be transparently publicized. It's a lot easier to twist evidence when nobody else can see it.

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Mead
01/21/20 8:31:40 PM
#61:


Amuseum posted...
like seditionists have the intellectual integrity to properly interpret the evidence anyway. any evidence or testimony will be twisted and misinterpreted to fit their agenda.

cant have facts

they might be misused

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Judgmenl
01/21/20 9:13:00 PM
#62:


Why do the Republicans keep on saying that the Democrats aren't charging Trump with any crimes despite the fact that they're charging him with Obstruction of Congress (ignoring subpoenas, telling white house staff that they must ignore subpoenas) and Abuse of Power (Withholding Foreign Aid to Ukraine to coerce Ukraine to spy on the Bidens)?


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Revelation34
01/21/20 9:29:45 PM
#63:


adjl posted...
All the more reason to have the trial be transparently publicized. It's a lot easier to twist evidence when nobody else can see it.


That would be pointless anyway since it would still be twisted by your typical Twitter user. Since only people in the actual legal process such as lawyers or judges would even understand the evidence.
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Jen0125
01/21/20 9:43:50 PM
#64:


Revelation34 posted...
That would be pointless anyway since it would still be twisted by your typical Twitter user. Since only people in the actual legal process such as lawyers or judges would even understand the evidence.

So you're arguing against political transparency?

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Judgmenl
01/21/20 9:45:48 PM
#65:


Now they're going to try and push an Amendment to subpoena the DoD.
And it's going to be 53-47.


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Blighboy
01/21/20 9:46:07 PM
#66:


We should just forward the evidence to the most proficient human beings, such as Vladdy Putin and Pooh Xinping, and have them let us know what the conclusion is.

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Revelation34
01/21/20 9:46:17 PM
#67:


Jen0125 posted...
So you're arguing against political transparency?


No I'm just saying that would be pointless to do.
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The_tall_midget
01/21/20 9:59:23 PM
#68:


Jen0125 posted...
So you're arguing against political transparency?

He's arguing against all the nobodies in the peanut gallery, who mostly receive their information from CNN and Fox News, to be given information they're too legally inept to understand and would misconstrue thanks to their partisan ignorance.

Case in point : this thread.

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Jen0125
01/21/20 10:21:35 PM
#69:


The_tall_midget posted...
He's arguing against all the nobodies in the peanut gallery, who mostly receive their information from CNN and Fox News, to be given information they're too legally inept to understand and would misconstrue thanks to their partisan ignorance.

Case in point : this thread.

So you're arguing against political transparency?

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The_tall_midget
01/21/20 11:36:00 PM
#70:


Jen0125 posted...
So you're arguing against political transparency?

Ah Jen, this is you right now :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYvjt5lGX0

To repeat slowly so you can understand : there is no such thing as political transparency to idiots who are blinded by political partisanship and morons who will openly misconstrue information due to ignorance. Political impeachment is a legal process and does not concern the peanut gallery filled with ignoramuses who aren't intelligent enough to understand what constitutes an actual crime or not according to the law.

Also, please don't send me to the gulag.

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GanonsSpirit
01/22/20 12:05:24 AM
#71:


Oh, so you are arguing against political transparency.
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FrndNhbrHdCEman
01/22/20 3:59:29 AM
#72:


Mead posted...
Everyone knows that you cant have evidence or witnesses at a trial

they ruin it
They dont want anyone with principles speaking. Only his sycophants, incompetents and grifters can.

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darkknight109
01/22/20 8:44:09 AM
#73:


The_tall_midget posted...
Political impeachment is a legal process
Political impeachment is not a legal process; it's a political process and always has been. That's why the branch of government involved is the legislative branch rather than the judiciary, in whom sole power to decide matters of criminality is invested, and why congress is explicitly barred by the constitution from levying any penalty except removing the impeached party from office and/or barring them from ever holding office again (notably, the constitution also explicitly states that double-jeopardy does not apply to impeachment proceedings, so that actual legal proceedings can be levied against the politician in question once impeachment has been sorted out).

This is Impeachment 101, bro. Keep up if you want to stay with the discussion.

The_tall_midget posted...
and does not concern the peanut gallery filled with ignoramuses who aren't intelligent enough to understand what constitutes an actual crime or not according to the law
Sure. This is exactly why courtrooms don't have galleries where the public is allowed to sit and observe the proceedings. Oh, wait.

Anyways, whether or not something is a crime has surprisingly little to do with whether or not it is an impeachable offence. True, most crimes are impeachable and most impeachable offences are crimes, but what meets the standard of one does not necessarily meet the standard of the other.

If Donald Trump stole a candy bar from a convenience store, drove away while speeding, then tossed the wrapper out of the window, he's committed three distinct crimes (petty theft, speeding, littering) but no one would reasonably say those crimes constitute an impeachable offence. By the same token, if Donald Trump invited Russia to invade Hawaii to try and reduce Democratic influence on the government and refused to deploy the military when they did, or if he gave out free pardons to any felon who was selected by someone who had donated at least a million dollars to his re-election campaign, or said he was going to spend the rest of his presidency golfing rather than tending to anything related to his job, those would all be impeachable offences despite being 100% legal actions.

This is exactly why impeachment is a political rather than legal process - the constitution recognizes that the law does not necessarily capture all situations whereby an executive may need to be removed from office, nor does it lay out what crimes would meet the hypothetical threshold to merit removal.

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Jen0125
01/22/20 8:54:39 AM
#74:


So you think that the impeachment hearings in the house should not have been televised and should have been closed door? For consistency sake? Correct?

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FrndNhbrHdCEman
01/23/20 12:03:27 AM
#75:


As President Trump's legal team and the Republican party argue against evidence, witness testimonies, and documents from being shared during the initial phase of the impeachment trial let's review what we learned during the House impeachment hearings. A lurid picture of the President's abuse of power was described throughout the impeachment hearings. President Trump attempted to extort Ukraine through the establishment of an unofficial diplomatic line, through the President's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, to carry out the President's domestic political errand while diverging from official U.S. policy in Ukraine.
Summary of first day of the Impeachment Trial of Donald J. Trump, President of the United States

President Trumps impeachment trial began with acrimony as lawyers for the president and House members known as impeachment managers clashed in personal and bitter arguments over the rules that will govern the trial.

The Senate voted to block attempts by Democrats to subpoena documents and witnesses for the impeachment trial that the White House has refused to provide to the House investigators. The votes were cast along party lines.

Under the rules, orchestrated by Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the House managers and Mr. Trumps lawyers will each have 24 hours starting Wednesday afternoon to argue their cases for and against the articles of impeachment. Senators will have 16 hours to ask questions, submitted in writing, most likely early next week. After that, the Senate will again consider the matter of whether to subpoena witnesses or documents, at which point a few Republicans have signaled they may be open to doing so.
Summary of the House Impeachment Testimonies

David Holmes testified the importance of a White House meeting for newly elected Ukrainian President Zelensky and President Trump extorting Ukraine by withholding aid while asking Zelensky to publicly announce an investigation into Biden on CNN.
It is important to understand that a White House visit was critical to President Zelenskyy. President Zelenskyy needed to show U.S. support at the highest levels in order to demonstrate to Russian President Putin that he had U.S. backing, as well as to advance his ambitious anti-corruption reforms at home. President Zelenskyys team immediately began pressing to set a date for the visit.
...Within a week or two, it became apparent that the energy sector reforms, commercial deals, and anti-corruption efforts on which we were making progress were not making a dent in terms of persuading the White House to schedule a meeting between the presidents. On June 27, Ambassador Sondland told Ambassador Taylor in a phone conversation (the gist of which Ambassador Taylor shared with me at the time) that President Zelenskyy needed to make clear to President Trump that President Zelenskyy was not standing in the way of investigations. I understood that this meant the Burisma/Biden investigations that Mr. Giuliani and his associates had been speaking about in the media since March.
...Upon reading the transcript, I was deeply disappointed to see that the President raised none of what I understood to be our inter-agency agreed-upon foreign policy priorities in Ukraine and instead raised the Biden/Burisma investigation and referred to the theory about Crowdstrike, and its supposed connection to Ukraine and the 2016 election.
...On September 8, Ambassador Taylor told me, now theyre insisting Zelenskyy commit to the investigation in an interview with CNN, which I took to refer to the Three Amigos. I was shocked the requirement was so specific and concrete. While we had advised our Ukrainian counterparts to voice a commitment to following the rule of law and generally investigating credible corruption allegations, this was a demand that President Zelenskyy personally commit, on a cable news channel, to a specific investigation of President Trumps political rival.
On September 11, the hold was finally lifted after significant press coverage and bipartisan congressional expressions of concern about the withholding of security assistance. Although we knew the hold was lifted, we were still concerned that President Zelenskyy had committed, in exchange for the lifting, to give the requested CNN interview. We had several indications that the interview would occur.

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FrndNhbrHdCEman
01/23/20 12:03:36 AM
#76:


(Cont.)
Department of Defense official Laura Cooper testified that Ukrainian officials inquired about the withheld aid on the same day as the Trump-Zelensky call.
In a blow to GOP defenses of President Donald Trump, a Defense Department official said Wednesday the Ukrainian government asked what was going on with U.S. military aid as early as July 25 the very day that Trump asked Ukraines president to investigate Democrats.

During Dr. Fiona Hill's testimony she debunked the Ukrainian election interference conspiracy theory pushed by President Trump, stating that "this is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves."
Based on questions and statements I have heard some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country. And that perhaps, somehow for some reason, Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves. The unfortunate truth is that Russia was the foreign power that systematically attacked our democratic institutions in 2016. This is the public conclusion of our own intelligence agencies, confirmed in bipartisan Congressional reports. It is beyond dispute, even if some of the underlying details must remain classified. The impact of the successful 2016 Russian campaign remains evident today. Our nation is being torn apart. Truth is questioned. Our highly professional and expert career foreign service is being undermined.
U.S. support for Ukrainewhich continues to face armed Russian aggressionhas been politicized. The Russian governments goal is to weaken our countryto diminish Americas global role and to neutralize a perceived U.S. threat to Russian interests. President Putin and the Russian security services aim to counter U.S. foreign policy objectives in Europe, including in Ukraine, where Moscow wishes to reassert political and economic dominance. I say this not as an alarmist, but as a realist. I do not think long-term conflict with Russia is either desirable or inevitable. I continue to believe that we need to seek ways of stabilizing our relationship with Moscow even as we counter their efforts to harm us. Right now, Russias security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. We are running out of time to stop them. In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests.

Following GOP counsel's questioning Dr. Hill outlined how a parallel diplomatic line was established by President Trump as he had Ambassador Sondland and Giuliani carry out a domestic political errand, diverging from official U.S. policy in Ukraine. Ranking Member Nunes cut off the questioning as the answers were damaging to Trump.
What I was angry about was that he wasnt coordinating with us, Hill said, referring to the National Security Council. And what I realized was, listening to his deposition, that he was absolutely right. He wasnt coordinating with us because we werent doing the same thing that he was doing.
Hill then contrasted the kind of work that she and other NSC officials were doing and the kind of work Sondland was performing.
He was involved in a domestic political errand, she said. And we were being involved in national security foreign policy, and those two things had just diverged.
She then relayed to Sondland how she believed this divergence in policy goals was all going to blow up and then added, And here we are.

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FrndNhbrHdCEman
01/23/20 2:07:54 PM
#77:




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Blighboy
01/25/20 9:58:03 AM
#78:


https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/pompeo-cursed-out-national-security-reporter-942877/

It's crazy how they try and distract with points that aren't relevant to the impeachment and still come out looking bad.

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Mead
01/25/20 12:05:43 PM
#79:


Blighboy posted...
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/pompeo-cursed-out-national-security-reporter-942877/

It's crazy how they try and distract with points that aren't relevant to the impeachment and still come out looking bad.

Asked Her to Find Ukraine on a Wordless Map, She Did

lmao


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Krazy_Kirby
01/25/20 1:44:07 PM
#80:


Amuseum posted...
He was the leader of opposition party. Clearly heading toward one party communist regime.


communist? like what some leftists want?
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FrndNhbrHdCEman
01/25/20 3:55:09 PM
#81:


Blighboy posted...
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/pompeo-cursed-out-national-security-reporter-942877/

It's crazy how they try and distract with points that aren't relevant to the impeachment and still come out looking bad.
Pompeo is a buffoon.


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adjl
01/25/20 5:58:04 PM
#82:


Revelation34 posted...
That would be pointless anyway since it would still be twisted by your typical Twitter user. Since only people in the actual legal process such as lawyers or judges would even understand the evidence.

Even if we accept your premise, the vast majority of the lawyers and judges in the world (or even just within the US) are not going to be inside that courtroom, and would therefore benefit from having the trial be transparently publicized. You don't have to get into questions of democracy or corruption or anything like that, your position is just plain factually wrong from the outset.

Furthermore, the idea that the information should be controlled because some people might misinterpret it if they had access to it is extremely totalitarian. You are literally saying "most people are too stupid to understand it so we should just rely entirely on the version of the facts provided by a government mouthpiece," which is entirely the opposite of what anyone in a democratic society should be saying. Should there be summaries of the proceedings so that people without legal training can understand what's going on? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean all of the information needs to be kept under wraps except for what's in that summary, because that would prevent people who do have legal training from fact checking it and holding the government accountable for any lies they choose to tell.

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Revelation34
01/25/20 7:12:09 PM
#83:


adjl posted...


Even if we accept your premise, the vast majority of the lawyers and judges in the world (or even just within the US) are not going to be inside that courtroom, and would therefore benefit from having the trial be transparently publicized. You don't have to get into questions of democracy or corruption or anything like that, your position is just plain factually wrong from the outset.

Furthermore, the idea that the information should be controlled because some people might misinterpret it if they had access to it is extremely totalitarian. You are literally saying "most people are too stupid to understand it so we should just rely entirely on the version of the facts provided by a government mouthpiece," which is entirely the opposite of what anyone in a democratic society should be saying. Should there be summaries of the proceedings so that people without legal training can understand what's going on? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean all of the information needs to be kept under wraps except for what's in that summary, because that would prevent people who do have legal training from fact checking it and holding the government accountable for any lies they choose to tell.


This is blatantly false since people not involved in the legal process would be morons about a legal process.
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Blighboy
01/25/20 7:20:46 PM
#84:


Revelation34 posted...
This is blatantly false since people not involved in the legal process would be morons about a legal process.
You just repeated your point without addressing anything he said

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Revelation34
01/25/20 7:25:10 PM
#85:


Blighboy posted...

You just repeated your point without addressing anything he said


He said I was factually wrong when he's the one who is wrong to say that.
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Blighboy
01/25/20 7:32:59 PM
#86:


Revelation34 posted...
He said I was factually wrong when he's the one who is wrong to say that.
Oh damn u right nvm

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adjl
01/25/20 9:49:35 PM
#87:


Revelation34 posted...
This is blatantly false since people not involved in the legal process would be morons about a legal process.

And the people directly involved in the trial are not the only people in the world involved in legal processes. Isn't reading fun?

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Revelation34
01/25/20 10:45:26 PM
#88:


adjl posted...


And the people directly involved in the trial are not the only people in the world involved in legal processes. Isn't reading fun?


The original statement was that everybody should see it. The regular person isn't going to understand anything and then take everything out of context when they decide to be a moron and bitch on Twitter.
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Blighboy
01/25/20 11:03:30 PM
#89:


Revelation34 posted...
The original statement was that everybody should see it. The regular person isn't going to understand anything and then take everything out of context when they decide to be a moron and bitch on Twitter.
How will we survive if that happens

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Revelation34
01/26/20 12:09:44 AM
#90:


Blighboy posted...

How will we survive if that happens


There's no "ifs" when it comes to people being morons on Twitter.
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adjl
01/26/20 11:57:28 AM
#91:


Revelation34 posted...
The original statement was that everybody should see it. The regular person isn't going to understand anything and then take everything out of context when they decide to be a moron and bitch on Twitter.

Fortunately, that's a pretty meaningless consequence, meaning it doesn't offset the added logistical costs of identifying every person in the world who's sufficiently legally competent to understand it and sending them a recording of the trial (a process which is itself extremely prone to corruption and political bias because of how subjective that assessment is) compared to simply publicly broadcasting it.

Bear in mind that your line of reasoning means you should also be arguing against the publication of scientific research. After all, most people are going to be too stupid to understand it, so why not instead feed it all through a single governing body that decides which science the public should and should not be allowed to learn about?

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frankspank
01/27/20 12:46:37 AM
#92:


If you buy any of this bullshit, I've got some beach front property in Ohio to sell ya.
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Revelation34
01/27/20 4:00:35 AM
#93:


frankspank posted...
If you buy any of this bullshit, I've got some beach front property in Ohio to sell ya.


Ohio has beaches because of the Great Lakes.
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