Poll of the Day > If all fish are mammals, and some mammals are poisonous,

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OniRonin
01/18/20 9:12:06 PM
#1:


If all fish are mammals, and some mammals are poisonous, then some fish are poisonous

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Metalsonic66
01/18/20 9:22:03 PM
#2:




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Mead
01/18/20 9:23:38 PM
#3:


I want to speak to the manager

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ParanoidObsessive
01/18/20 9:28:06 PM
#4:


You're arguing from fallacious first principles, therefore the consequent is invalid.
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Lokarin
01/18/20 9:36:25 PM
#5:


Represent your logical syllogism in a Venn diagram

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OniRonin
01/18/20 10:00:26 PM
#6:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
You're arguing from fallacious first principles, therefore the consequent is invalid.

You're invalid. The consequent ("Some fish are poisonous") is preferable to the subsequent ("Fish don't poison people") because the latter ("Fish don't poison people") seems to presuppose something as common as fish poisoning or fish poisoning rates. (Why isn't a percentage of people poisoned by fish offered as a single count against an affected fish species?) It may also be so that, in a statistic (such as there was none, there is/was no fish poisoning), the sentence in the context of that statistic is phrased in negative, where its logical need for negation as a principle for ordinary language follows from the "I'm the only one who" and the verbal clausalization of this as indicative ("He's the only one who exists") and prior to subject ("you") is false a priori.

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Lokarin
01/18/20 10:04:59 PM
#7:


The logical syllogism may not work since we don't know if it's fish or mammals that is the container of the other - that's why I asked for a Venn diagram.

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OniRonin
01/18/20 10:05:22 PM
#8:


Lokarin posted...
Represent your logical syllogism in a Venn diagram
https://i.imgur.com/HRfwHzb.png

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Lokarin
01/18/20 10:06:21 PM
#9:


OniRonin posted...
https://i.imgur.com/HRfwHzb.png

That's not a Venn diagram... or is it? PO? Zang? Someone?

edit:

Here?

https://imgur.com/mQDHBR8

In this diagram all the fish are mammals, and some mammals are poisonous, but there's no guarantee of overlap with the fish

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OniRonin
01/18/20 10:18:20 PM
#10:


Lokarin posted...
In this diagram all the fish are mammals, and some mammals are poisonous, but there's no guarantee of overlap with the fish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanceia_verrucosa

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Lokarin
01/18/20 10:19:46 PM
#11:


OniRonin posted...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanceia_verrucosa

Irrelevant to the syllogism.

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OniRonin
01/18/20 10:22:38 PM
#12:


what is a syllogism

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Lokarin
01/18/20 10:23:47 PM
#13:


OniRonin posted...
what is a syllogism

https://www.k12reader.com/term/syllogism/

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OniRonin
01/18/20 10:25:13 PM
#14:


what is the syllogism here? are you saying my picture isn't a venn diagram because i didn't use circles?

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Mead
01/18/20 10:27:47 PM
#15:


tc are you for real

because I mean

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Lokarin
01/18/20 10:28:46 PM
#16:


OniRonin posted...
what is the syllogism here? are you saying my picture isn't a venn diagram because i didn't use circles?

The syllogism is the combination of your two premises and your conclusion

Premise 1: All fish are mammals (all A are B)
Premise 2: Some mammals are poisonous (Some B are C)
Conclusion: Some fish are poisonous (Some A are C)

When you represent the categories in a venn diagram, you can rapidly see that the category "Poisonous" is nebulous within this logical syllogism. It's possible that all of the poisonous mammals are non-fish due to this, it's also possible that all the poisonus mammals ARE fish (which would make the syllogism true as well, although incomplete)


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GanonsSpirit
01/18/20 11:20:53 PM
#17:


Mead posted...
tc are you for real

because I mean
TC is the man on the street corner ranting about how we used to have triple helix DNA, but aliens took away one of the helices.

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OniRonin
01/18/20 11:25:42 PM
#18:


Lokarin posted...
The syllogism is the combination of your two premises and your conclusion

Premise 1: All fish are mammals (all A are B)
Premise 2: Some mammals are poisonous (Some B are C)
Conclusion: Some fish are poisonous (Some A are C)

When you represent the categories in a venn diagram, you can rapidly see that the category "Poisonous" is nebulous within this logical syllogism. It's possible that all of the poisonous mammals are non-fish due to this, it's also possible that all the poisonus mammals ARE fish (which would make the syllogism true as well, although incomplete)
How is my link irrelevant then. It proves that premise 1 implies premise 2

GanonsSpirit posted...
TC is the person on the street corner ranting about how we used to have triple helix DNA, but aliens took away one of the helices.

if aliens had been to earth already they would have helped us to establish stateless communism. they are simply observing us from the moonship to determine when/whether to intervene


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dancer62
01/19/20 12:03:59 AM
#19:


Birds gotta swim, fish gotta fly, gonna love my man until he die.

TC has been warned about making topics.

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Krazy_Kirby
01/19/20 12:13:57 AM
#20:


dancer62 posted...
Birds gotta swim, fish gotta fly, gonna love my man until he die.

TC has been warned about making topics.


some fish can walk
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Amuseum
01/19/20 1:50:58 AM
#21:


you can't make that conclusion at all. drawing fallacious diagrams from faulty deductions don't make your conclusions any more logical.

from your given premises, there are several possible conclusions.

1. None of the fish are poisonous. (None of the poisonous mammals are fish.)
2. Some of the fish are poisonous. (Some mammals, including some fish, are poisonous.)
3. All of the poisonous mammals are fish. (Fish are the only mammals that poison.)
4. All of the fish are poisonous. (The set of fish is a subset of poisonous mammals.)
5. All fish are poisonous, and they are the only poisonous mammals. (The set of fish and set of poisonous mammals are identical.)

Switching the statements around would turn out true:

If all fish are mammals, and some fish are poisonous, then some mammals are poisonous.
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BlackScythe0
01/19/20 2:09:41 AM
#22:


Not aware of any poisonous mammals.There are some venomous mammals.
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wolfy42
01/19/20 2:19:44 AM
#23:


All fish are poisonous, we are just immune to some of the poisons.

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Krazy_Kirby
01/19/20 2:29:01 AM
#24:


doesn't matter, fish aren't mammals in the first place
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Muscles
01/19/20 2:38:38 AM
#25:


BlackScythe0 posted...
Not aware of any poisonous mammals.There are some venomous mammals.
There's no fish that can poison you if you eat them?

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SunWuKung420
01/19/20 5:56:46 AM
#26:


Fish aren't mammals.

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Lokarin
01/19/20 10:09:02 AM
#27:


OniRonin posted...
How is my link irrelevant then. It proves that premise 1 implies premise 2

A logical syllogism doesn't have to represent anything real in reality, but by providing a real world example - your premise 1 immediately fails since anyone everywhere can say fish are not mammals.

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Unbridled9
01/19/20 11:35:26 AM
#28:


Firstly, fish are not mammals.

That aside, it does not logically follow since there is no direct link between your A (all fish are mammals) and your C (some fish are poisonous). While it is certainly possible that some A are C, it's equally possible that ALL A are C or NO A are C. The subsets can exist within the larger set while being independent of each other.

For example, fish are mammals, some mammals breath fire, therefore some fish breath fire. This would not work if all mammals that breathed fire were bats. Likewise, if there was only two species of fish and neither of them breathed fire then the conclusion would be completely false. The only defining characteristic of a mammal is the presence of mammalry glands (hence why fish are not mammals). Since that does not bear a relationship to the conclusion the overlap between 'fish' and 'poisonous animals' may be of any amount ranging from 0 to 100% since they're not related.

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OniRonin
01/19/20 11:47:33 AM
#29:


Krazy_Kirby posted...
doesn't matter, fish aren't mammals in the first place

SunWuKung420 posted...
Fish aren't mammals.

SunWuKung420 posted...
Fish aren't mammals.

Lokarin posted...
your premise 1 immediately fails since anyone everywhere can say fish are not mammals.

Unbridled9 posted...
Firstly, fish are not mammals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale


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#30
Post #30 was unavailable or deleted.
LinkPizza
01/19/20 11:53:13 AM
#31:


But a whale isnt a fish...
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OniRonin
01/19/20 11:56:01 AM
#32:


Amuseum posted...
you can't make that conclusion at all. drawing fallacious diagrams from faulty deductions don't make your conclusions any more logical.

from your given premises, there are several possible conclusions.

1. None of the fish are poisonous. (None of the poisonous mammals are fish.)
2. Some of the fish are poisonous. (Some mammals, including some fish, are poisonous.)
3. All of the poisonous mammals are fish. (Fish are the only mammals that poison.)
4. All of the fish are poisonous. (The set of fish is a subset of poisonous mammals.)
5. All fish are poisonous, and they are the only poisonous mammals. (The set of fish and set of poisonous mammals are identical.)

Switching the statements around would turn out true:

If all fish are mammals, and some fish are poisonous, then some mammals are poisonous.

Ah thank you for explaining, I drew a fixed venn diagram for anyone else who may have been confused

https://i.imgur.com/oqr2B3L.png

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OniRonin
01/19/20 12:00:43 PM
#33:


LinkPizza posted...
But a whale isnt a fish...
it lives in the water. seems like a fish to me

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LinkPizza
01/19/20 12:05:41 PM
#34:


OniRonin posted...
it lives in the water. seems like a fish to me

Living in water isn't the only requirement for being a fish... And it technically still needs to breathe air. Also, fish and mammals are separate categories of vertebrate animals. So, that means a fish can't be a mammal...
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OniRonin
01/19/20 12:06:15 PM
#35:


LinkPizza posted...
Living in water isn't the only requirement for being a fish...
no true scotsman fallacy

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LinkPizza
01/19/20 12:09:14 PM
#36:


OniRonin posted...
no true scotsman fallacy

What are you talking about. I edited my post above, btw...
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Unbridled9
01/19/20 12:24:15 PM
#37:


OniRonin posted...
it lives in the water. seems like a fish to me

So do crabs, frogs, otters, and seals. Fish are gil-bearing, aquatic, animals that lack limbs with digits. Whales do not breath using gills and, as such, are not fish. However they do possess mammary glands and, as such, are part of the mammal grouping.

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SKARDAVNELNATE
01/19/20 12:52:06 PM
#38:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal
Mammals are vertebrate animals constituting the class Mammalia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish
Fish are gill-bearing aquatic craniate animals that lack limbs with digits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylum
In biology, a phylum is a level of classification or taxonomic rank below kingdom and above class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subphylum
In zoological nomenclature, a subphylum is a taxonomic rank below the rank of phylum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordate
A chordate is an animal of the phylum Chordata.
Chordates are divided into three subphyla: Vertebrata (fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals); Tunicata or Urochordata (sea squirts, salps); and Cephalochordata (which includes lancelets).

OniRonin posted...
all fish are mammals
All fish are Vertebrates.
All mammals are Vertebrates.
Not all Vertebrates are fish.
Not all Vertebrates are mammals.
Fish are not mammals.

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SunWuKung420
01/19/20 1:47:26 PM
#39:


Whales are mammals. Fish are fish. Every topic, did you even school bro?

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Unbridled9
01/19/20 2:04:47 PM
#40:


SunWuKung420 posted...
Whales are mammals. Fish are fish. Every topic, did you even school bro?

This isn't even school. This is, like, common cereal-box knowledge. You know, the sort of thing you'd learn from the back of cereal boxes with little 'fun facts' for kids.

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Metalsonic66
01/19/20 2:39:09 PM
#41:


TC is dragging you guys along here...

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OniRonin
01/19/20 2:58:14 PM
#42:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal
Mammals are vertebrate animals constituting the class Mammalia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish
Fish are gill-bearing aquatic craniate animals that lack limbs with digits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylum
In biology, a phylum is a level of classification or taxonomic rank below kingdom and above class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subphylum
In zoological nomenclature, a subphylum is a taxonomic rank below the rank of phylum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordate
A chordate is an animal of the phylum Chordata.
Chordates are divided into three subphyla: Vertebrata (fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals); Tunicata or Urochordata (sea squirts, salps); and Cephalochordata (which includes lancelets).

All fish are Vertebrates.
All mammals are Vertebrates.
Not all Vertebrates are fish.
Not all Vertebrates are mammals.
Fish are not mammals.
tu quoque fallacy strikes again

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OniRonin
01/19/20 2:59:44 PM
#43:


Unbridled9 posted...
So do crabs, frogs, otters, and seals. Fish are gil-bearing, aquatic, animals that lack limbs with digits. Whales do not breath using gills and, as such, are not fish. However they do possess mammary glands and, as such, are part of the mammal grouping.
"oh, those aren't real fish" come on, man. just be real with me

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Lokarin
01/19/20 5:07:12 PM
#44:


Again, not only is your logical syllogism flawed - you are continuously making category errors by applying reality to your hypothetical.

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Yellow
01/19/20 5:12:56 PM
#45:


OniRonin posted...
If all fish are mammals, and some mammals are poisonous, then some fish are poisonous
That's wrong because if fish were mammals the statement wouldn't imply some fish are poisonous.

Because non-fish mammals could be the only poisonous ones.

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OniRonin
01/19/20 5:36:51 PM
#46:


Yellow posted...
That's wrong because if fish were mammals the statement wouldn't imply some fish are poisonous.

Because non-fish mammals could be the only poisonous ones.

this is the qua nihil versatur fallacy

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Lokarin
01/19/20 5:38:16 PM
#47:


OniRonin posted...
this is the qua nihil versatur fallacy

Those aren't even

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SKARDAVNELNATE
01/19/20 7:56:19 PM
#48:


OniRonin posted...
tu quoque fallacy strikes again
Unless you wrote those wikipedia articles I have no idea what you're getting at.

OniRonin posted...
this is the qua nihil versatur fallacy
Are you just picking fallacies at random? Is it even a real fallacy?
I googled this. Latin - than which nothing more is done upon.
I don't see any reference to this being a thing.

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Lokarin
01/19/20 7:59:54 PM
#49:


Also, when you say something is a fallacy... you have to actually point out the part that is a fallacy.

That's like saying "you're a liar" and not stating how you know.

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OniRonin
01/19/20 8:05:52 PM
#50:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Unless you wrote those wikipedia articles
well check the history then

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I googled this. Latin - than which nothing more is done upon.

You shouldn't rely on google translate for your translation tasks. if you don't know latin i would recommend learning

Lokarin posted...
Also, when you say something is a fallacy... you have to actually point out the part that is a fallacy.

That's like saying "you're a liar" and not stating how you know.
fair enough, i will point out the specific post that is fallacious in the future

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