Board 8 > azuarc ranks your future VGMC nominations (also, [VGMC])

(+) Yeah! (+)

VGMC is going to be delayed until GotD2 is over, right?

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I don't think VGMC has ever tried to avoid the site contests so I would... doubt it?

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Oh, I didn't know that. Guess I'd better not slow down my rankings project then.

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If anything, we want VGMC to coincide with the start of the contest to bring in fresh faces.

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Just a heads-up, since I owe you all an update:

I was extremely disinterested in working on this over the last two weeks, after writing the first ~15 reviews. I've come to the conclusion that I was putting a little too much effort into the write-ups, which was dragging things out and also making it a loss less enjoyable for me. I have been listening to the songs via YouTube playlist on and off, but today was the first that I've gotten back to evaluating anything in like two weeks.

So the project is not abandoned, but it's going to be a bit longer than I initially projected.

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Write-ups are hard!!! It's your topic, do whatever you want!

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Doing write-ups forces you to think, that's for sure!

Speaking of my own rankings project, I only have 29 left to go! The music is getting really, really good at this point!

DragonImps posted...

I usually listen intently, without doing anything else, but I still find it difficult to retain the music or think of things to say about it most of the time.

Yes, that's how it is for me, and I think for most of us. This is part of the reason I plan on creating a weekly listening VGMC playlist prior to the matches.... even if nobody else uses it, I certainly will!

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Haste_2 posted...

Yes, that's how it is for me, and I think for most of us. This is part of the reason I plan on creating a weekly listening VGMC playlist prior to the matches.... even if nobody else uses it, I certainly will!

Sigh. You know you're working too hard for the contest when you maintain a playlist nobody uses since they just listen to their own anyway. Maybe I should delegate that to you then.

I was thinking about the opening topic for VGMC the other day, and about what changes I might make to the contest. On one hand, I felt like dropping a bunch of changes on you guys might be exciting. On the other, you might not react favorably, so I probably ought to at least give everyone some advance warning and a chance to tell me how terrible an idea each of these are.

I have 3 items on the table. I will do some, none, or all of these, based on feedback.

1. Guarantee inclusions for songs making 5 votes before a certain point in the nomination period. Anyone who supported the track would have their votes locked, but it would not have to survive the rising waters of the Great Consolidation. I would still leave at least 3 days for the endgame to just be open season like usual. (I've discussed this one already.)
2. Bracket alteration -- still 192 songs, in 16 divisions of 12, but no byes. Instead, one of the four-packs is left completely empty and at the end of round 2, from the 9 songs that lost, we would vote one song back into the bracket. (They'd be placed in the neighboring division.) This would prevent songs from being a victim of placement or having a tough draw or whatever.
3. I'm considering letting the retirees back in for one year. I mean, yeah, there's a chance we might see an inevitable Scars of Time victory, but the board has changed a lot in 13 years and Scars did lose in BOST4 to Wind of You. Some of us have been around for a decade on this board and have never gotten the chance to see some of these classics compete except maybe in a tournament of champions side bracket. I am definitely not in favor of eliminating the retired list, but leaving it to the side one year might be fun.

So, are any of these boycott worthy?

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How does voting back in work for the second idea? Will there be 16 days of 9-way polls?
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I kind of like option 2. Option 1 I am not a huge fan of but it's not a dealbreaker by any stretch.

I am more or less neutral towards letting retirees back. To be honest I think a lot of people just wouldn't nominate them in favor of new songs anyways. I'd probably more inclined to do another Tournament of Champions if anything but I'm not sure this topic has much impact on me regardless.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

How does voting back in work for the second idea? Will there be 16 days of 9-way polls?

I assume each poll would get its own day, yes. I'd probably do something where you can vote on multiples. Maybe get 5 votes and you can put up to 2 on any song.

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azuarc posted...

Sigh. You know you're working too hard for the contest when you maintain a playlist nobody uses since they just listen to their own anyway. Maybe I should delegate that to you then.

You really think nobody would listen to it? It's true that you could just listen to a playlist of the entire bracket, if it's all put in order. That's how it was done last contest, right? If that's done again, maybe there's no need. Regardless, if I do it, I was already planning on being the one to do it! But man, I wish I did this for BOST... that's the contest that really could have used the weekly playlist.

azuarc posted...

Guarantee inclusions for songs making 5 votes before a certain point in the nomination period. Anyone who supported the track would have their votes locked, but it would not have to survive the rising waters of the Great Consolidation. I would still leave at least 3 days for the endgame to just be open season like usual. (I've discussed this one already.)

I see no downside here. Sounds good to me! Keep in mind that the number of nominators may be higher this time around as it's contest season...

Bracket alteration -- still 192 songs, in 16 divisions of 12, but no byes. Instead, one of the four-packs is left completely empty and at the end of round 2, from the 9 songs that lost, we would vote one song back into the bracket. (They'd be placed in the neighboring division.) This would prevent songs from being a victim of placement or having a tough draw or whatever.

I don't get it, so I'd better see what it looks like. Oh, hey... that's a pretty cool idea! It's a way to give a track screwed over by bracket placement a second chance! So a free-for-all is likely the one it would be done, huh? If I had a say in this, I would prefer to exclude songs that lost R1 to a song that lost in R2. (for example, if MGS2 Theme lost to Scars of Time which lost to Baba Yetu in R2, MGS2 Theme should be excluded from the poll, as MGS2 Theme CLEARLY doesn't belong as the "second chance" player... Scars of Time clearly deserves that second chance over the MGS2 Theme) This would drop the number of participants in the poll down to six.

I'm considering letting the retirees back in for one year. I mean, yeah, there's a chance we might see an inevitable Scars of Time victory, but the board has changed a lot in 13 years and Scars did lose in BOST4 to Wind of You. Some of us have been around for a decade on this board and have never gotten the chance to see some of these classics compete except maybe in a tournament of champions side bracket. I am definitely not in favor of eliminating the retired list, but leaving it to the side one year might be fun.

When I first saw this idea, I was thinking, "Just wonderful... some good music is gonna get screwed over by having to go against e.g. MGS2 Theme in the second round." But if we use the bracket idea in your second point, the idea of this kind of bracket seems a little better! The "second chance" idea would be really beneficial in an "anything goes" bracket. In other words, your second and third suggestions work really well together!

Doing a bracket based on point #3 should be just a one-time thing... I would prefer we go back to the traditional bracket next year, with retirees excluded like normal.

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Haste_2 posted...

You really think nobody would listen to it?

Well, you didn't. I have no idea about anyone else, but nobody indicated they were using it.

Haste_2 posted...

I don't get it, so I'd better see what it looks like.

https://imgur.com/fqpi0s8


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Happy January 22nd! What holiday is today, you ask? The annual Miscommunication Day!

I should have left off the "I don't get it" part... my message makes more sense that way. >_> Thanks for the chart, but I already created one myself.

azuarc posted...

Haste_2 posted...
You really think nobody would listen to it?

Well, you didn't. I have no idea about anyone else, but nobody indicated they were using it.

Whoops. I thought you were saying nobody would listen to my weekly playlist that I proposed (a playlist that gets updated weekly to reflect approaching matches). But you were saying that (you thought) nobody listened to the entire-bracket playlist YOU provided, right?

Last VGMC I used that playlist a ton! I couldn't have been the only one that used it. I would be happy to be in charge of creating and maintaining it this year, if you'd like.

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I don't think there's anything interesting about allowing retirees back in, personally. Would be more interested in a no-returner contest!
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Haste_2 posted...

I would be happy to be in charge of creating and maintaining it this year, if you'd like.

Not a hard task, and I definitely used the playlist myself, but if it's one less thing for me to attempt to cover, I would appreciate that.

Mac Arrowny posted...

Would be more interested in a no-returner contest!

It might or it might not be. I'm willing to listen to this argument, and it's certainly been floated before. I personally think blocking any songs from returning might be discouraging, and it creates a massive do-not-fly list that nominators have to check against, which is annoying to deal with when people can't always handle the regular retiree list. Doubling that or more, depending on if you mean none of last year's participants or nobody ever, will be a massive headache. And if you meant the latter, I think it might choke nominations as people struggle to decide what to nominate. Some of us could easily crank out 20 songs that haven't been seen before, and some of us couldn't find 1 that they want to nominate.

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arguably it'd be as easy to check for returners in general because you can just search on the main entrants page instead of searching on the retiree page

not even I am advocating for that though

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if people didn't want returners, they would simply not nominate or support them. it seems bizarre to institute a rule that basically says "i don't like how some people approach this contest so i'mma ban what they want to do."

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Keep returners, save retirees for ToC
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Finally remembered to add Cako's songs to my playlist.

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Locking in popular songs early sounds pretty good

Community-voted second chance instead of byes sounds like too much work, and would probably have a lot of inconclusive 9-way polls

Retirees is something I'd like to see, just not within the main bracket. It could be a secondary event to celebrate the end of the decade, or save it for next year to celebrate 15 years (might be best to run in the period following VGMC rather than alongside it).

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So, on pretty much a daily basis, I think of this topic and how I haven't done the ranking, and each time I come to it, I realize how much I am absolutely not interesting in working on it at that moment. I could say that I'd do it eventually, but I'm going to have to start focusing on VGMC soon enough. (My brain has definitely not registered this fact either, yet.)

Therefore, I want to sincerely apologize to everyone. I'm going to link the sheet I was working from, which I copied into the spreadsheet in the OP -- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gRAHwzLZduGVWYPILF5wyiTAvtI3PUG3O_s4MgV9Zwo/edit#gid=1546732875

Note that I only wrote up comments for about half the songs, and that was only some very preliminary remarks. My intent had to be to sort them by the initial ratings and then go back and do a much better job. Nearly all the ratings were between 5 and 7, and I very easily could have swung the score for a given song by a bit if I had rated it on a separate day. So please don't assume this is my final verdict on everything here, but I did listen extensively to the playlist I made with all these tracks. There was nothing I personally loved (except maybe Wandersong, depending on my mood that day,) but there are certainly some contest-worthy songs on the list.

Again, my sincerest apologies, and if anyone wanted to call attention to a given track pre-contest, please comment here and I'll try to offer my thoughts on it if I haven't already.

That said, now would be a great time to get in your final thoughts about VGMC and any potential changes from last year's ruleset.

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dang now I have to decide between taliyah and ultracombo

maybe I'll just do both

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@banshiryuu objections to using blue worm song in addition to purple worm song?

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I don't think you need to feel bad about not finishing a project which you don't have the drive/desire to finish. At least not from the perspective of disappointing us, because I'd like to think that no one here is going to hold it against you.
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Also you mentioned this in the partial writeup on the spreadsheet, but I'm comparatively not a fan of the Evo version of Unfathomed Force, to the point that I would not even support it if someone else nominated it. I do like some of the Evo tracks for Zero/Ao but this isn't one of them.
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Really cool you liked SUV & ED. The RE track is a little difference since it's from the side action-oriented Mercs mode rather than the main game, which is why it's less atmospheric focused. And it's true I wasn't totally nominating for VGMC purposes, but I was still interested in their potential regardless.

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I am definitely going to try to push the CtC version of Reach for the Moon this year. I think the percussion might make all the difference.

Metal (Brute Justice) is definitely a surprise given the series it comes from, but its a wonderful love letter to old-school mecha anime and I hope it makes it past a couple of rounds.

I had a feeling you wouldnt like Oblivion, but Im one of the philistines who likes Philistine, so I figured I would give it a shot.

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Hey, I appreciate you giving us what you had worked out so far at least! Too bad it was just one step before you had your epiphany and realized I nominated the top 5 songs in the topic! >_>

Darn, I was hoping The Calm might hit more of a DDS feel with you in the SMT sprectrum of music rather than just "more Persona." You're probably right that Apex of the World is the strongest contest-wise FE song I nommed there though I do think Edge of Dawn has a shot at up-ending it despite the obvious shared themes in them. Indomitable Will is just a personal fave that I threw in.

Glad you liked Throw Away Your Mask! I actually think music spoilers is its biggest obstacle to getting into this year's VGMC so perhaps it's a year too early for it.

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My noms are not on your spreadsheet. Did you DQ me because of all the trouble I cause?! =p

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Haste_2 posted...

My noms are not on your spreadsheet. Did you DQ me because of all the trouble I cause?! =p

*blink blink*

Well, uh, shit...I somehow completely missed your post, I guess, because those songs don't even sound familiar to me. I mean, I know End of Raging Waves and Proud Dust, but I certainly don't remember seeing them in the topic before and they aren't on my playlist.

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whoops accidentally posted early on the previous one

Just for fun, I decided to run some alternative bracket scenarios for VGMC 13 based on each song's X-Stats (thanks to Janus for providing those last year). Of course, X-Stats are based on your vote share in a directly or indirectly extrapolated match against the champion, so close eliminations are more important than how far you actually got. A look at the top 16 shows how X-Stats are biased this way: https://i.imgur.com/33mDNji.png

Since EXSPHERE_NOSURGE will always win using this ranking, I can shake things up by adding a random disturbance to each song, where a spread of 5 means a random adjustment between -5 and +5. To start, though, I just wanted to see how the retirees might change if I used the X-Stats as is (spread set to 0), but with seeding order into the bracket randomized instead. From there, the spreadsheet just simulates each match with the higher X-Stats always winning.

https://i.imgur.com/ZO2vYw8.png
Scenario A1: DNF FW15C makes the finals; other new retirees are That Person's Name Is, ENDYMION, Life Will Change, Mt. Vesuvius, Full Base, A. Rene, and Laurara's Dance. Favourable bracket definitely helping A. Rene here, who lost 24-25 to Gokinjo Battle in round 2 of the actual bracket, a respectable opponent but not exactly a powerhouse!

https://i.imgur.com/hVORLZr.png
Scenario A2: New new retirees are Snake Eater, Kill Command, and The Final Song, with Mt. Vesuvius, DNF FW15C, Life Will Change, and ENDYMION returning from Scenario A1. The Final Song redeemed after losing instantly to the champion during the contest!

https://i.imgur.com/QphYoGC.png
Scenario A3: New new retirees are Rhuzerv, Under the Moon, The End of the Raging Waves (woohoo), and Gokinjo Battle, with DNF FW15C, ENDYMION, A. Rene (again wow), and Full Base returning from previous scenarios. Groove Coaster 2's Under the Moon lost 21-26 to Pac Twin Attack in round 1, but somehow makes the retirement round here!

You see quite a few names now who lost close matches to "strong" opponents in the actual bracket, like That Person's Name Is (23-25 ENDYMION in round 2), Laurara's Dance (25-30 Full Base in round 1), Full Base (23-23, 24-25 New World Order in round 2), Snake Eater (20-25 Innocence & Emptiness in round 2), and The Final Song (17-23 EXSPHERE_NOSURGE in round 2).

Now let's have a bit more fun by adding the random spread of 5 to get some new winners!

https://i.imgur.com/efxF0rp.png
Scenario B1: Innocence & Emptiness over Life Will Change in the finals, with notable retirees TIGAR, Studiopolis Zone Act 1, and What Am I Fighting For. Not sure how likely this one would be!

https://i.imgur.com/SVi0Kvd.png
Scenario B2: ENDYMION over Maze Cave in the finals, with notable retirees I'll Face Myself, Steel and Snare (azuarc must have rigged it), and Escaping the Courtyard Garden. Nice job Maze Cave!

https://i.imgur.com/36ajrYv.png
Scenario B3: Full Base over DNF FW15C in the finals, with notable retirees Gangplank Galleon, Field of Hopes and Dreams, Knight of a Foreign Country, and M4 (Part II). Go M4!!!

Shoutouts to ENDYMION for retiring in every single simulation, with Life Will Change and DNF FW15C not too far behind at 5/6 retirements. I should also mention admirable upstarts Full Base and Snake Eater with 4/6 and 3/6 retirements after only making round 2 originally!

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I like B1. Can we go back and make that canon?

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EXSPHERE > DNF finals would be perhaps an all-time best for vgmc.

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*rushes over to this topic*

...Huff!... Huff... huff...

Side... bracket. We want a side bracket!

We need the auto-include side bracket to return!

Also, I can't believe I came in 2 months too late!

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Forget side bracket, we want regular bracket!!

What do you mean you can't see the future!?

I'm liking Scenario A1! Chloe, I&E, and DNF along with EXSPHERE makes a great final four. Great elite eight too with contestants like Laurara's Dance!

I would be interested in seeing you revise the stats accounting for the fact that Revenger likely got stronger as the contest progressed. I don't think ENDYMION is among the elites, for example. New World Order may have strengthened, too.

Now for some of my own stats! Have you ever wondered what the results would be like if only the voters most like you voted in these contests? Check out these results! (thanks to azuarc for the voting data) I only have this data for three users: azuarc and MycroProcessor... I chose these two not only because of their heavy involvement in the contests, but because they're about as polar-opposite in music tastes as two users can possibly be.

Let's start with Team azuarc. Qualifying for this team required you to be more compatible with azuarc than with Mycro. The members include (ordered from least compatible to most compatible)

akk
xuxon
p0
tsunami
nfun
slykirby
mcxd
handsome
ark
tre
fl81
dubs
pyre
mac
advo
arti
tennis
521
baconus
az

Team azuarc's expected VGMC XIII retirees:
Innocence and Emptiness
Denshou no Shi - Verum (champion)
Life Will Change
That Person's Name Is
The Final Fight
Skyclad Observer
New World Order (bracket B winner)
Servants of the Scourge
It Has to Be This Way (finalist)
An Ill Omen
Death to Illusions
Under the Moon
Yesterdays Opponents are Todays Ingredients
Gallant Gunshot
Sky of Twilight
The Final Song ~ Black Song, White Scales (bracket D winner)

These estimates are all calculated via vote differentials rather than x-stats. Five of the sixteen actual retirees still managed to retire!

For a complete bracket of Team azuarc results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-ZtyPTqkvh-vOImTVvDyj9z41dx7NKfPj8qeYAeLZRU/edit?usp=sharing


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Team Mycro has the following users (in order of compatibility):
mycro
kao
jona
cako
place
uf8
gamebop
moon
haste
flamander
bans
kcf
dowolf
collen
xp
raetsel
rwlh
imps
sceptile
prody
lem
malyg
janus
lefty
blue
psi

Team Mycro Results:
TIGAR (All Phase Mix)
Douwa Kairou
Raging Spirits
DNF FW15C (ALL PHASE MIX) - Overall 2nd Place
1NF3S+@+!0N (Theme of Crabulon)
Passing Through the Forest
Full Base (Bracket B winner)
Servants of the Scourge
Romun Empire
Chocolate Missile
Battle!! (Bracket C winner)
Kill Command
Yesterdays Opponents are Todays Ingredients
Battle of Marion
Dead Neon Hell City
Class::EXSPHERE_NOSURGE; (Overall champion)

Detailed results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CYdyuS9LGVDyvsrYIlIeWjhHq4Lp_iunq4gHrrI7sN0/edit?usp=sharing

Surprisingly little has changed in the bottom half, huh? Eight of the actual retirees remain intact with these particular results, compared to just five with Team azuarc's results.

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look at that list. just look at it.

team mycro stays winning

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I think I dislike more of Team Mycro's retirees than I like.
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well despite not really belonging on Team Mycro those results are mostly good

EXSPHERE can still burn though

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howling of the birds robbed

I think I like Team Mycro's set of retirees more consistently than Team Azuarc's, but there's certainly something to be said about 3 of my 4 favorites bracket champions (Sky of Twilight, New World Order, and It Has to Be This Way) being on Team Azuarc's list...

I'm getting the message that Yesterday's Opponents should have beaten Invitation Flower Autumn (I do not like this message)

Battle of Marion retiree is tempting me to defect...but That Person's Name Is and The Final Song??? Can we just trade Gallant Gunshot for Marion

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PIayer_0 posted...

Yesterday's Opponents should have beaten Invitation Flower Autumn

Yes.

EXSPHERE is amazing, but as a whole I prefer the Team azuarc retirees
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FL81 posted...

Yes.

No.

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pyresword posted...

I think I dislike more of Team Mycro's retirees than I like.

I don't love every retiree on the first list, and some I can't even remember, but the Mycro list definitely has some songs I could have done without.

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Yeah, it IS funny how both teams prefer YOATI. I think Autumn ended up winning because of a few irregular voters showing up that day. I prefer Mycro's list of retirees in general, but I do prefer azuarc's in the case of I&E, Gallant Gunshot, and Sky of Twilight. Also, The Final Song vs. EXSPHERE is an extremely close match for me...

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why isn't MARIA retired yet
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Haste_2 posted...

Also, The Final Song vs. EXSPHERE is an extremely close match for me...

Which we got in round 2. GG bracketmakers. Who were the idiots who set that up?

We thought EXSPHERE vs Bob was one of the most hilarious matches, and we wanted both Bob and Final Song at the end of the bracket.

FL81 posted...

why isn't MARIA retired yet

Shhh, one mustn't talk about MARIA, lest the haters wail and gnash their teeth.

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