Current Events > People still believing in Free Will are pretty cringe.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Talking about the drug topic in particular.

Do people not understand that humans only have agency, which is limited to their enviroment and genetic dispositions? Everything about us is either pre-determined, or created by information and stimulus that is received. This notion we can somehow surpass this and "will" our way to a new reality is topkek.

Substance abuse is not entirely pre-determined
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thank goodness for this topic, i almost had to hold my self accountable for all my poor life choices, bad diet & zero financial responsibility

Thinking you have no control in your life is a terrible mindset to have

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Will power accounts for quite a lot in my experience. Leaving everything to the crutch of pre determination or agency sounds like an excuse a lot of the time.

While external factors and genetic disposition may play greatly in decision making, individual decisions (such as responding to this topic) is still an aspect of free will. That is, I actively (not passively) made the choice to post instead of ignore. All those individual interactions and choices are what amounts to free will.

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Pretty sure you made the decision to create this dumb topic

Or are you claiming that was preordained too

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Alpha218 posted...

Pretty sure you made the decision to create this dumb topic

Or are you claiming that was preordained too

It wasn't dumb. It just highlights your ignorance of agency vs free will is. Agency is the person ability to create actions, given what they have. By the nature of a design, we don't got free will to act beyond this restriction. If you think about it, every action you ever do can be explained by its relation to others

Darker Cheshire posted...

While external factors and genetic disposition may play greatly in decision making, individual decisions (such as responding to this topic) is still an aspect of free will. That is, I actively (not passively) made the choice to post instead of ignore. All those individual interactions and choices are what amounts to free will.

None of this justify freewill, only agency existence. You demonstrated agency, not freewill. It how we are able to model and predict people, due to lack of the latter.

things aren't explained by their relation. they're explained by their causes. this is called science

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R_Jackal posted...

Will power accounts for quite a lot in my experience. Leaving everything to the crutch of pre determination or agency sounds like an excuse a lot of the time.

It sounds like mathematical modelling, prediction, sociology and psychology. People are a slave to their biology and their enviroment. Can't be escaped.

Squall28 posted...

Thinking you have no control in your life is a terrible mindset to have

This is science. See

Schizophrenia
Stockholm syndrome
Battern women syndrome
PTSD
Phobias
Etc.

Not to be too much of a stickler, but you're referring to determinism, without the pre.

Teddytalks posted...

Do people not understand that humans only have agency, which is limited to their enviroment and genetic dispositions?

Yes, it's your environmental and genetic dispositions which force you to shitpost.

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Crono99 posted...

You only have as much will as you think you have.

If you're convinced that you don't have free will, you're not going to fight your worst instincts and you're going to give up instead of fight.

This is disproved by the compliance experiment and brain studies that show we react and respond to things on a subconscious level. At best, we can learn about these things (environment) to better control them, but we are still unable to combat most of this conditioning.

Agency is what we have, and is opened up by knowledge and a good environment. It is also limited by a bad one. I lost a sleu of mental disorders that erase the idea of free will, unless you think people chose an unoptimal life for no reason.

Skye Reynolds posted...

Yes, it's your environmental and genetic dispositions which force you to shitpost.

Very anti-science.
Unfortunate.

i don't see any need to use the word agency to describe our ability to do things. in fact i wouldn't use it.

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ok zoomer

Dragonblade01 posted...

Not to be too much of a stickler, but you're referring to determinism, without the pre.

Ehh, I guess this is a fair enough assessment. We do model our world in a deterministic way. We just can never fully control the factors that affect human conditions, we can't capture the full life of a human. This improved dramatically the more information we have though.

Wewillrocku posted...

i don't see any need to use the word agency to describe our ability to do things. in fact i wouldn't use it.

Agency isn't free will, so I won't conflate the two.

linid0t posted...

thank goodness for this topic, i almost had to hold my self accountable for all my poor life choices, bad diet & zero financial responsibility

Bad diet caused by

Capitalism,
Depression,
Bad health information.

Poor life choices is captialism,
Bad information
Poor social conditions leading to short term decision making, even psychological conditions (ADHD, truama)

Financial responsibility is a straight learned skill, and a resistance against consumerist culture.

You tried to be big brained... I give a C for effort.

Teddytalks posted...

Ehh, I guess this is a fair enough assessment. We do model our world in a deterministic way. We just can never fully control the factors that affect human conditions, we can't capture the full life of a human. This improved dramatically the more information we have though.

Personally, I would say that the only thing that really counts as "free will" is our own inability to perfectly understand and predict the mechanisms that cause us to act in the specific ways that we do as individuals.

Teddytalks posted...

Poor life choices is captialism,

why?

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Dragonblade01 posted...

Personally, I would say that the only thing that really counts as "free will" is our own inability to perfectly understand and predict the mechanisms that cause us to act in the specific ways that we do as individuals.

We could call that many things though. Randomness, like meeting a random person that "changes your life", or an event. The extent to which friends can play, your friends involvement, who they are, etc.

I only give freewill to gods, as they have no limitations on what they can do. They just are.

Wewillrocku posted...

why?

Captialisim as a system employs marketing... Which is basically corporate propaganda. It literally beamed into our heads with phones nowadays. What it does is...

Create false images of what is or is not a health body
What is fun
What is love
What is (insert x value)

Anything that can be commercialized, has been nowadays, for short term consumption.

Ever wondered why immigrant children lose their wealth compared to their forebearers? This is likely why. Less resistance against consuerism.

Consuerism convinces people that they need item X for social captial. The food is physically addictive, encouraging people to eat. The food is also make additionally attractive, and oversized proportions are depicted as attractive.

Credit is heavily encouraged .. as our entire economy depends on this. The business cycle is one big bubble as Americans don't have the wealth. Everything^ for the GDP.

Teddytalks posted...

We could call that many things though. Randomness, like meeting a random person that "changes your life", or an event. The extent to which friends can play, your friends involvement, who they are, etc.

I only give freewill to gods, as they have no limitations on what they can do. They just are.

I don't think it's random. I think on a fundamental level, free will is just our brain's interpretation of its own functionality. I truly believe that if we made AI with similar complexity and ability to us, that it would also eventually claim to have free will.

Dragonblade01 posted...

I don't think it's random. I think on a fundamental level, free will is just our brain's interpretation of its own functionality. I truly believe that if we made AI with similar complexity and ability to us, that it would also eventually claim to have free will.

Ahh, this is an interesting take. I see it as a good thing in this way, as the delusion of freewill is good to prevent people from suffering an existential crisis. We are basically organic computers

Teddytalks posted...

Ahh, this is an interesting take. I see it as a good thing in this way, as the delusion of freewill is good to prevent people from suffering an existential crisis. We are basically organic computers

people don't need delusions to avoid bad outcomes.

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Regardless of whether or not we have free will, we act like we do and that is what matters. This take on determinism is too reductive. You act like you do, you treat others like they do, and so on. Even ruminating about a decision can affect the outcome. Regardless of whether or not we are biological computers, we cannot function like one. We have free will as much as it is possible.

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Wewillrocku posted...

people don't need delusions to avoid bad outcomes.

See

Religion
Drugs
False narratives and complexes people develop.

ChocoboMogALT posted...

Regardless of whether or not we have free will, we act like we do and that is what matters. This take on determinism is too reductive. You act like you do, you treat others like they do, and so on. Even ruminating about a decision can affect the outcome. Regardless of whether or not we are biological computers, we cannot function like one. We have free will as much as it is possible.

it can be a good lesson on having sympathy and forgiveness and imderstanding for even people whoake poor choices imo

Teddytalks posted...

This is disproved by the compliance experiment and brain studies that show we react and respond to things on a subconscious level. At best, we can learn about these things (environment) to better control them, but we are still unable to combat most of this conditioning.

Agency is what we have, and is opened up by knowledge and a good environment. It is also limited by a bad one. I lost a sleu of mental disorders that erase the idea of free will, unless you think people chose an unoptimal life for no reason.

yes

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Teddytalks posted...

See

Religion
Drugs
False narratives and complexes people develop.

all those things are negative.

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ChocoboMogALT posted...

Regardless of whether or not we have free will, we act like we do and that is what matters. This take on determinism is too reductive. You act like you do, you treat others like they do, and so on. Even ruminating about a decision can affect the outcome. Regardless of whether or not we are biological computers, we cannot function like one. We have free will as much as it is possible.

Imagine a very advanced AI, programmed incredibly well, can self learn, self repair, but still prone to malfunction, and taking in virus that hard to debug.

Now imagine it is biolgoical

You imagined humanity, and you are living it. Freewill can be best described as a useful delusion. Agency is what we utilize in accordance with the space we have to operate.

Wewillrocku posted...

all those things are negative.

The alternative is usually suicide or mental collapse. Its a positive alternative to disappearing into the void

There are a lot of reasons we still hold to free will:

- We can't perfectly predict our own actions and certainly not the actions of others.
- We can imagine alternative scenarios, thereby leading us to believe we could have physically made that choice (even though it is impossible to choose alternatives in any given instance of choice, so it's not even a testable idea).
- Kantian principles are still extremely foundational components of a lot of our moral, ethical, and legal consideration.
- Separation of self and vessel has been a common trait in human thinking since ancient times.
- It's comforting to believe that "we" are fundamentally in control of what "our body" does.

Teddytalks posted...

The alternative is usually suicide or mental collapse. Its a positive alternative to disappearing into the void

prove it.

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Dragonblade01 posted...

- Kantian principles are still extremely foundational components of a lot of our moral, ethical, and legal consideration.

i doubt it. you might as well claim (like any fanatic) that the ten commandments are.

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Although there is no scientific basis for it, the belief or lack thereof in it is just as much a part of the casuality chain that ultimately determines our actions.

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Wewillrocku posted...

prove it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/geopolicraticus.wordpress.com/2017/04/13/epistemic-collapse/amp/

Religioisty has been linked to lower rates of depression.

Drugs are employed as a coping mechanism.

Hero complexes and lying to oneself, disassociation are commonly done by people to compensate for failings, truama, etc.

Wewillrocku posted...

i doubt it. you might as well claim (like any fanatic) that the ten commandments are.

I suppose you could say that over time we've adopted human secularism's concept of well-being as a moral standard more and more, but I still see traces of "ought implies can" in a lot of common moral philosophy.

Teddytalks posted...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/geopolicraticus.wordpress.com/2017/04/13/epistemic-collapse/amp/

Religioisty has been linked to lower rates of depression.

lol has been linked. you will not find a scientist who says so.

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Wewillrocku posted...

lol has been linked. you will not find a scientist who says so.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3547523/

Teddytalks posted...

Bad diet caused by

Capitalism,
Depression,
Bad health information.

Poor life choices is captialism,
Bad information
Poor social conditions leading to short term decision making, even psychological conditions (ADHD, truama)

Financial responsibility is a straight learned skill, and a resistance against consumerist culture.

You tried to be big brained... I give a C for effort.

I dont even know where to begin trying to unpack this trainwreck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#Natural_science

you can read that if you want to.

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linid0t posted...

I dont even know where to begin trying to unpack this trainwreck

Don't bother. Educating you on how your response would be wrong would take too long.

Teddytalks posted...

Don't bother. Educating you on how your response would be wrong would take too long.

there is a word for that, it's arrogance.

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Teddytalks posted...

Imagine a very advanced AI, programmed incredibly well, can self learn, self repair, but still prone to malfunction, and taking in virus that hard to debug.

Now imagine it is biolgoical

You imagined humanity, and you are living it. Freewill can be best described as a useful delusion. Agency is what we utilize in accordance with the space we have to operate.

What is the difference between free will and the delusion of free will? Does that affect how you or the world operates?

Going backwards: An advanced AI presumably may be changed at the code level, turned off and on fairly easily, and has demonstrated deterministic behavior (to a degree). We do not.
I don't believe in free will, but I do believe arguments against it are often reckless.

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Lot to unpack here
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