Poll of the Day > I find it ironic that Democrats started all that impeachment process...

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BlackScythe0
12/14/19 11:21:08 AM
#51:


I find it amusing people act like democrats had a choice.

With what Trump did how could democrats justify themselves if they didn't pursue it?
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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/14/19 11:24:20 AM
#52:


BlackScythe0 posted...
With what Trump did how could democrats justify themselves if they didn't pursue it?
What did Trump do?

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MirMiros
12/14/19 7:50:52 PM
#53:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
What did Trump do?

Abuse of power for one. He used his political position (president) to gain political favors from a foreign power. Withholding military aid that had already been authorized by congress from Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine investigating and interfering with one of his political rivals (Biden). Obstruction of justice is another one which he did by threatening witnesses in the impeachment hearings and attempt to prevent his own staff from testifying. Both of these things are illegal and impeachable offenses, but this only scratches the surface of the things Trump has done since he became president.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/14/19 8:25:37 PM
#54:


MirMiros posted...
He used his political position (president) to gain political favors from a foreign power.
That's called diplomacy. The president is suppose to do that.

MirMiros posted...
Withholding military aid that had already been authorized by congress from Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine investigating and interfering with one of his political rivals (Biden).
The Ukrainian president says he didn't know about the delay in aid when he agreed to the request.
Also, Biden is corrupt. Is he immune from investigation because he's running for office?

MirMiros posted...
Obstruction of justice is another one which he did by threatening witnesses in the impeachment hearings and attempt to prevent his own staff from testifying.
Considering that the impeachment hearings are just the latest move in the Democrats refusal to accept the 2016 election results any testimony that doesn't fit their narrative is immedaitely going to deemed perjury.

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Mead
12/14/19 8:30:30 PM
#55:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
That's called diplomacy. The president is suppose to do that.

not when it is for personal gain and jeopardizes national security

try to keep up

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Lemonheads
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Blighboy
12/14/19 8:33:36 PM
#56:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
That's called diplomacy. The president is suppose to do that.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The Ukrainian president says he didn't know about the delay in aid when he agreed to the request.
It didnt happen but also it was okay if it happened

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BlackScythe0
12/14/19 10:18:05 PM
#57:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
That's called diplomacy. The president is suppose to do that.

The Ukrainian president says he didn't know about the delay in aid when he agreed to the request.
Also, Biden is corrupt. Is he immune from investigation because he's running for office?

Considering that the impeachment hearings are just the latest move in the Democrats refusal to accept the 2016 election results any testimony that doesn't fit their narrative is immedaitely going to deemed perjury.
Everything you said is bull shit.

You can believe fabrications, but it doesn't mean the democratic base will.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/14/19 11:05:37 PM
#58:


BlackScythe0 posted...
You can believe fabrications, but it doesn't mean the democratic base will.
Certain Democrats are talking about leaving the party because they oppose impeachment. Which position do you think is the fabrication?

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MirMiros
12/14/19 11:39:54 PM
#59:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
That's called diplomacy. The president is suppose to do that.

Wrong, asking foreign powers to investigate your political opponents is not diplomacy.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The Ukrainian president says he didn't know about the delay in aid when he agreed to the request.
Also, Biden is corrupt. Is he immune from investigation because he's running for office?

Wrong, there is written proof in the transcripts of the meeting that Trump said he would give them the aid but only if they "did him a favor first". Also, if he is corrupt then he should be investigated by OUR law enforcement. Not a foreign power unbeholden to our laws and constitution.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Considering that the impeachment hearings are just the latest move in the Democrats refusal to accept the 2016 election results any testimony that doesn't fit their narrative is immedaitely going to deemed perjury.

Whatever helps you sleep at night kiddo.

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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/14/19 11:57:24 PM
#60:


MirMiros posted...
Wrong, asking foreign powers to investigate your political opponents is not diplomacy.
They aren't investigating a political opponent. They're investigating a company within their country and what happened with a preosecutor in their legal system that was looking into that company.

MirMiros posted...
if he is corrupt then he should be investigated by OUR law enforcement. Not a foreign power unbeholden to our laws and constitution.
The Ukraine investigation into Burisma is needed to determine if there is cause to investigate Biden for corruption.

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BlackScythe0
12/15/19 12:11:29 AM
#61:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
They aren't investigating a political opponent. They're investigating a company within their country and what happened with a preosecutor in their legal system that was looking into that company.

The Ukraine investigation into Burisma is needed to determine if there is cause to investigate Biden for corruption.
Yep, it's totally needed to demand they go into CNN to announce the investigation.

Because it's normal for foreign nations to go to a US network to announce an investigation.
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FatalAccident
12/15/19 12:42:44 AM
#62:


I_Always_Die posted...
yeah they impeached a guy for getting a blowjob and not a guy who bribed a foreign government to fuck with our Presidential election. so weird.
Lol American politics is so fucked

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darkknight109
12/15/19 1:32:54 AM
#63:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
They aren't investigating a political opponent. They're investigating a company within their country.

Trump mentioned Biden several times in his famous "perfect" transcript (and apparently, according to the sworn testimony of one of the parties to the call, an entire sub-conversation about Biden was removed from the transcript despite his request to have it added in); the word "Burisma" does not appear even once.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
and what happened with a preosecutor in their legal system that was looking into that company.
Viktor Shokin was not looking into Burisma. The investigation was left to go dormant before the EU, the IMF, and the US started pushing for his ouster. Hell, conduct like that is exactly *why* those groups (notably consisting of more than just Biden and more than just the United States) wanted him gone.

BTW, Shokin was legendarily corrupt, several of his prosecutors quit while alleging serious ethical breaches in his office (two others were found with the proceeds of bribes in their possession), and he failed to prosecute any contemporary or prior members of Ukraine's government, despite ample evidence. Ordinary Ukrainians were protesting and demanding he be removed from his post. If you're trying to protect your son from a corruption investigation (more on that in a second), removing a prosecutor who is soft on corruption isn't really a winning move.

Also worth noting: Shokin's successor re-opened the investigation into Burisma, with nary a whisper of objection from the US. The investigation, along with a parallel UK investigation that was launched because the Brits were concerned that Shokin was leaving the investigation to die, both determined that there were no grounds for charges.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The Ukraine investigation into Burisma is needed to determine if there is cause to investigate Biden for corruption.
The allegations against Burisma date to several years before Hunter Biden was involved with the company. Ukraine's anti-corruption force even released a statement on this matter, clarifying that all matters under investigation dealt with transactions that were completed between 2010 and 2012, with Biden not joining the company in any capacity until 2014. The Ukrainians have confirmed that Hunter Biden is not, was not, and never has been a subject of any investigation or any allegations of wrongdoing.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The Ukrainian president says he didn't know about the delay in aid when he agreed to the request.
Which, even if true (which I doubt - Zelenskiy seems to be just keeping his head down at this point, given how dependent he is on American military aid) changes absolutely nothing.

If a cop pulls me over, claims he suspects I'm driving under the influence, then offers to let me go if I pay him $500, he is guilty of solicitation of a bribe. This is true:
1) Regardless of whether I take him up on his offer
2) Regardless of whether I actually was doing anything illegal
3) Regardless of whether he eventually lets me go (whether or not I paid the bribe)
and
4) Regardless of whether I felt any pressure from his offer (bribery does not require the solicited party to feel pressure; that's what separates it from extortion)

Even if Zelenskiy had no idea that aid was being withheld, that changes absolutely nothing about what Trump did and it's *his* behaviour - not Zelenskiy's - that is the issue here.

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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/15/19 1:58:05 AM
#64:


darkknight109 posted...
Even if Zelenskiy had no idea that aid was being withheld, that changes absolutely nothing about what Trump did and it's *his* behaviour - not Zelenskiy's - that is the issue here.
So, what about Trump's behavior is objectionable?
It seems clear that Biden arranged for his son to have a job at a company that has had shady dealings in the past.
Trump learns of this and asks Ukraine to assist the US in getting to bottom of that.
If it were anyone other than Trump making the request the media stories would be about the Biden foreign nepotism scandal.

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darkknight109
12/15/19 3:08:04 AM
#65:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
So, what about Trump's behavior is objectionable?
Well, let's see here:

1) Withholding congressionally apportioned funds, for starters. Congress has the power of the purse and budgets are where the legislative branch's power is at its nadir. Trump does not have the authority to withhold money that has been congressionally apportioned. The president has the power to temporarily hold funds only in a narrow group of emergency situations and only for a maximum of 45 days without congressional approval (suffice to say there was no emergency in Ukraine and he did not have congressional approval).

2) Lying about it. Congress was not informed that the funds were being withheld and presidential aids were instructed to lie or mislead anyone in congress who asked, by claiming that there was a bureaucratic hold-up rather than stating that Trump had stopped up the funds.

3) Attempting to use the withholding of funds and a sought-after White House meeting to pressure Zelenskiy into publicly announcing an investigation for nakedly political purposes. Note how for the first three years of Trump's presidency - notably when Biden was not a presidential candidate - Trump did nothing. Only now, with Biden leading the polls and looking to be a serious threat to Trump's already-tenuous chances of re-election, has he decided this is a serious issue.

4) Giving serious credence to an internet conspiracy theory (the Crowdstrike nonsense) because Trump's fragile snowflake ego is still upset by the idea that Russia intervened on his behalf to help him win the election, something literally every US intelligence agency has established is fact.

5) Failing to follow the proper procedure for an investigation. In the event that Trump was serious that he wanted an investigation purely for non-political reasons, there is a process for that and it is not "go talk to my personal attorney, who is not a government representative" (possible Logan Act violation right there). What Trump should have done, to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, is gone through the American ambassador to Ukraine and the American embassy, who would liaise with Ukrainian counterparts and set out the appropriate steps.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
It seems clear that Biden arranged for his son to have a job at a company that has had shady dealings in the past.
Literally no evidence has come forward suggesting that the elder Biden had any role in getting his son a job. Burisma probably wanted his son on the board so they would have access to his rolodex, but that's not illegal (and if you're upset about ex-politicians and/or their relatives getting cushy board jobs despite having no qualifications, you're going to have a long, long, long list of people to go through, spanning the entire political spectrum).

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Trump learns of this and asks Ukraine to assist the US in getting to bottom of that.
"Assist the US"? Then why isn't there an American investigation into this? Why is Trump getting Ukraine to do his dirty work?

Answer: because it's spurious charges and Trump knows it. This is like Hillary's e-mails (doubly hilarious, given that Trump is using an unsecured phone to conduct government business, despite numerous attempts to get him to stop) - bullshit that he can use to smear his opponent so that his own scumminess and criminal misdeeds don't look quite so bad in comparison.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
If it were anyone other than Trump making the request the media stories would be about the Biden foreign nepotism scandal.
What foreign nepotism scandal?

Again, you don't seem to get this: there is absolutely no evidence that Joe Biden did anything improper in Ukraine or elsewhere. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

No one has suggested that Biden got his kid the job. No witnesses have alleged it, no evidence has emerged to suggest it, this is entirely made up Trumpian bullshit to try and distract from the fact that Donald Trump, president of the United States, illegally used congressionally apportioned funds to solicit a bribe from the Ukrainian government in an effort to harm his most politically dangerous opponent heading into an election year. That's it.

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zebatov
12/15/19 3:16:38 AM
#66:


Someone here cares more about politics in another country than they do in the country they live in and who they vote for that gets a minority government here.

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darkknight109
12/15/19 7:47:19 AM
#67:


zebatov posted...
Someone here cares more about politics in another country than they do in the country they live in and who they vote for that gets a minority government here.
I'm not even sure what you attempted to say in this post.

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BlackScythe0
12/15/19 8:11:54 AM
#68:


Ya'll people are putting too much effort into responding to conservative trolling.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/15/19 2:02:17 PM
#69:


darkknight109 posted...
1) Withholding congressionally apportioned funds, for starters.
Sending aid to a foreign government that is potentially corrupt, is ignoring a shady company within their country, and has corrupt prosecutors in their legal system is a bad thing. I think Trump did right in trying to determine if the US was helping the bad guys before approving the aid.

darkknight109 posted...
2) Lying about it. Congress was not informed that the funds were being withheld and presidential aids were instructed to lie or mislead anyone in congress who asked, by claiming that there was a bureaucratic hold-up rather than stating that Trump had stopped up the funds.
Where's the lie? There was a bureaucratic hold-up.

darkknight109 posted...
Only now, with Biden leading the polls and looking to be a serious threat to Trump's already-tenuous chances of re-election, has he decided this is a serious issue.
We don't know when Trump learned of the situation in Ukraine and the 2 matters could be entirely coincidental. Further Trump's approval rating is good and people are abandoning the Democratic party over matters of policy. Trump has no reason to worry about Biden.

darkknight109 posted...
Failing to follow the proper procedure for an investigation.
Again, Trump needs to know if the government he's sending aid to is corrupt. If the Ukraine government announces they are investigating something then the Ukrainian people will hold them to it. If he goes through private channels then it can be easily covered up before the Ukrainian public learn of it.

darkknight109 posted...
What Trump should have done, to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, is gone through the American ambassador to Ukraine and the American embassy, who would liaise with Ukrainian counterparts and set out the appropriate steps.
Wasn't the American ambassador to Ukraine (Marie Yovanovitch) recalled for refusing to do that very thing you just described?

darkknight109 posted...
"Assist the US"? Then why isn't there an American investigation into this? Why is Trump getting Ukraine to do his dirty work?
Does the US have jurisdiction to investigate companies in another country? This is the first step in a process to launch an American investigation, or determining if one is called for based on the evidence they turn up.

darkknight109 posted...
Again, you don't seem to get this: there is absolutely no evidence that Joe Biden did anything improper in Ukraine or elsewhere. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Since when does the media wait for evidence?

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Mead
12/15/19 2:14:44 PM
#70:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Sending aid to a foreign government that is potentially corrupt, is ignoring a shady company within their country, and has corrupt prosecutors in their legal system is a bad thing. I think Trump did right in trying to determine if the US was helping the bad guys before approving the aid.

Congress approved the aid. Bipartisanly because Ukraine is our ally and in a war against an invader who is very clearly not our ally. Trump abused his position of power by illegally withholding the aid and he did so to help him get re-elected in the 2020 election.

You can think that isnt true until the cows come home but the facts are clear and not even disputed by most elected officials on either side of the aisle.

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Lemonheads
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Mead
12/15/19 2:16:52 PM
#71:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Further Trump's approval rating is good

you really have no idea what you are talking about

he's the only president in modern history to never have even reached 50% approval in national polls and half the country thinks he should be removed from office and thats before congress has even impeached him

that is embarrassingly bad. Wake up.

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Lemonheads
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BUMPED2002
12/15/19 2:26:39 PM
#72:


Lobomoon posted...
...because they claim Trump used the power of the office to help him re-elected in 2020, while the process itself is nothing more than an attempt to paint Trump as a crook and reduce his chances of being re-elected.

I mean everyone knows there is almost zero chance of Trump actually getting impeached.

US political system sure is weird.
Didn't the GOP do the same thing to Clinton back in the 1990s?

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SpankageBros
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Blighboy
12/15/19 3:45:00 PM
#73:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Sending aid to a foreign government that is potentially corrupt, is ignoring a shady company within their country, and has corrupt prosecutors in their legal system is a bad thing. I think Trump did right in trying to determine if the US was helping the bad guys before approving the aid.
This has literally jack shit to do with announcing an investigation into Biden though

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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/15/19 4:46:30 PM
#74:


Blighboy posted...
This has literally jack shit to do with announcing an investigation into Biden though
I can't find anything that says such an announcement ever occurred.

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Mead
12/15/19 4:47:36 PM
#75:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I can't find anything that says such an announcement ever occurred.

Because he got caught

JFC

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Lemonheads
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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/15/19 5:20:13 PM
#76:


Mead posted...
Because he got caught

JFC
It didn't happen but also it was bad if it happened?

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Mead
12/15/19 5:22:39 PM
#77:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
It didn't happen but also it was bad if it happened?

do you seriously not understand that attempting to abuse power is wrong, even if you get caught and arent able to abuse your position the way you tried?

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Lemonheads
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Lobomoon
12/15/19 5:23:06 PM
#78:


If Biden corrupt it needs to be investigated before he becomes a president.

If it benefits Trump or not is besides the point.

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Mead
12/15/19 5:27:38 PM
#79:


Lobomoon posted...
If Biden corrupt it needs to be investigated before he becomes a president.

If it benefits Trump or not is besides the point.

go nuts

im not even a fan of Biden but theres just not a shred of evidence that he did anything wrong. Him working to get a sketchy prosecutor removed was something the entire international community considered the correct and above board thing to do and it literally increased the odds of the company his son worked for being investigated

meanwhile we have a mountain of evidence and open admissions of trump abusing his position, brazenly obstructing justice but folks think the two situations are the same

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Lemonheads
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BlackScythe0
12/15/19 5:34:38 PM
#80:


Lobomoon posted...
If Biden corrupt it needs to be investigated before he becomes a president.

If it benefits Trump or not is besides the point.

It was investigated.

The company had been corrupt, but the crimes occurred before the Biden kid worked there. They hired him to try and make themselves look better.
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Gaawa_chan
12/15/19 7:15:21 PM
#81:


Much as I despise Joe Biden, he did not give his relatives positions in government, while Trump did.

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Mead
12/15/19 7:39:21 PM
#82:


Also the idea of trump giving one fuck about corruption is just laughably ignorant

just look up how much money he had to pay over his Trump university scheme and the fraud surrounding his trump foundation charity

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Lemonheads
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The_tall_midget
12/15/19 7:45:25 PM
#83:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Since when does the media wait for evidence?

I mean, it's not like CNN, MSNBC or the NY Times constantly has to do retractions because of their ignorant, racists journalists.

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darkknight109
12/16/19 3:41:48 AM
#84:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
is ignoring a shady company within their country
An independent British investigation confirmed there was no grounds for charges against Burisma.

And I would bet my house that you couldn't tell me a thing about why Burisma is "shady" without looking up the allegations against them (which, to be precise, have more to do with the oligarch in charge of the company than the company itself).

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
and has corrupt prosecutors in their legal system is a bad thing
First you say that Shokin was trying to fight corruption, now you're agreeing with me that he's corrupt?

Ukraine has made significant steps in cleaning up its internal corruption since the Yanukovich and Poroshenko regimes, BTW.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I think Trump did right in trying to determine if the US was helping the bad guys before approving the aid.
Trump cannot "approve" aid! He is literally not allowed to do that! That's part of the reason *why* he's in so much trouble.

It is congress's job to approve aid and determine how much is spent and in what way. Not the president's. The president cannot override the will of congress when it comes to spending or not spending money, for the same reason he can't create his own court system and unilaterally declare people guilty: that's not a function of his branch of government. That's why Trump always throws a big tantrum at budget time, because he demands a bunch of money for his wall and congress keeps telling him to go piss up a rope.

BTW, the congressional majority that approved aid to Ukraine was overwhelming and bipartisan. Those people had all already looked at Ukraine, confirmed that it was probably a good idea to help them fight off Russian insurrectionists waging war in their eastern territories, and sent them the money. If Trump had shut the fuck up and allowed congress to do its job, he wouldn't be in this mess.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Where's the lie? There was a bureaucratic hold-up.
The White House initially claimed that the Office of Management and Budget was behind the freeze, because they needed to review it, but those reviews were completed long before the aid was frozen in June. In reality, the OMB had nothing to do with it - Trump ordered the funds frozen, but told his aids not to inform congress (a violation of appropriations law) and to lie and blame the OMB if they were asked about it.

Here's a little thought exercise for you - if Trump really was concerned that Ukraine was corrupt and was acting within his authority to freeze the funds until he was satisfied that they weren't going to fuel corruption, why did he release them as soon as the whistleblower complaint was filed? Why did he try to blame another part of the government? Why didn't he just stand up and say, "I ordered the funds frozen, because I am concerned about corruption in Ukraine?"

Answer: because that's a bullshit excuse and Trump could not give less of a shit about foreign corruption, save how he could use it to further his own ambitions. He was trying to deflect because he knew what he was doing was illegal and when the whistleblower complaint went out, he realized he'd been caught, so he released it to try and stave off the damage.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
We don't know when Trump learned of the situation in Ukraine
First off, I have to say that your argument that Trump was too stupid to realize something that was literally part of his job to be refreshingly honest about his capabilities as president.

That being said, we do know when Trump knew of the situation in Ukraine, because various people have testified about it. Trump disliked Ukraine, because he latched onto conspiracy theories that it was actually them that hacked the election and they did so as a false-flag on behalf of the Democrats (reminder: 100% of all US security agencies have confirmed that it was Russia, not Ukraine, that conducted the hack and they did so to get Trump elected because Putin hated Clinton and feared her as president due to actions she took against Russia as Obama's Secretary of State) and also apparently saw them as useful for smearing his leading Democrat rival.

Again, Trump personally intervened to freeze the aid in June. He was well aware of what was going on long before that phone call occurred.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Further Trump's approval rating is good
Fact check: Mostly false.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Trump's aggregate approval rating is currently 42.7% and even Ramussen - which notably skews in his favour - doesn't put him over 50%.

Trump is the only president to never have an approval rating above 50%. He is less popular than every president at this point in their careers since they started recording the numbers.

Most people understand that Trump is an incompetent, yammering boob, he just has this weird cult of personality that apparently thinks that an overweight balding guy with a fake tan and a comb-over is the height of alpha-male status and refuses to understand that he was a criminal and a crook before entering into politics and absolutely nothing has changed since he got elected.

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darkknight109
12/16/19 3:41:52 AM
#85:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Trump has no reason to worry about Biden.
Fact check: Mostly false.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

Biden leads the generic match-up against Biden by ~7-9%, which is almost assuredly enough to secure a win. And that's now, after all this has gone down. Back when this was all shaking out, Biden was ahead by double digits

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/447972-biden-leads-trump-by-landslide-proportions-in-new-national-poll

Trump absolutely has good reason to be scared of Biden. Calling the election this far out is impossible, but Biden has been polling strongly and that is something that Trump - weak as he is (see above for his approval numbers) - cannot ignore.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Again, Trump needs to know if the government he's sending aid to is corrupt.
No, Trump does not, because that's not his job.

That's congress's job and congress already confirmed that Ukraine is good and the aid should flow.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Wasn't the American ambassador to Ukraine (Marie Yovanovitch) recalled for refusing to do that very thing you just described?
No, actually, and I'm glad you brought her up.

Yovanovich was removed because Rudy Giuliani didn't like her, largely because she was leading anti-corruption efforts in Ukraine that were targeting his business partners (several of whom were arrested recently on corruption charges when they came to America). He badmouthed her constantly to Trump, who eventually ordered her dismissal, despite several people in the State Department urging Mike Pompeo to step up and defend her, because the allegations being made against her were unfounded.

Again, if Trump really was concerned about corruption in Ukraine, Yovanovich was an ally, not an enemy. Anti-corruption was one of her big focuses in Ukraine and she wound up losing her job for it.

No one has ever alleged that Yovanovich was removed for not following orders. Even the State department attempted to say, in letters to Democrat lawmakers, that she left because her term expired (which was a lie that subsequently got exposed).

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Does the US have jurisdiction to investigate companies in another country?
If they involve American citizens, absolutely.

If Trump had good reason to suspect Joe Biden of corruption (Trump did not have good reason to suspect Joe Biden of corruption), he could have requested that the FBI investigate him and his actions vis-a-vis Ukraine. He didn't do that because he knew that a) The investigation would be based on complete bullshit and the FBI would say so and b) It would be more politically damaging to him than Biden if he was seen to be ordering the investigation. Thus, he attempted to have Ukraine do it for him instead so that he could deny he was ever involved.

Clever scheme - good thing Trump's a moron or it might have actually worked.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Since when does the media wait for evidence?
You're the one who made the allegation that Biden's actions were corrupt, brah, not the media. Trying to deflect on to them is not going to work.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I can't find anything that says such an announcement ever occurred.
Zelenskiy booked time on CNN to make that announcement. He cancelled it as soon as the whistleblower thing blew up and Trump released the aid.

Moreover, the fact that the announcement didn't occur changes nothing. This is the "Sideshow Bob" defence, alleging that a crime attempted-but-failed isn't a crime.

Again, if I get pulled over by a crooked cop and he threatens to arrest me unless I pay him $500 and I refuse, then he lets me go anyways, that cop still committed a crime. The solicitation of the bribe *is* the crime - the fact that I didn't pay it changes nothing.

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Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
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Fam_Fam
12/16/19 7:50:28 AM
#86:


i love the defense:

cartel kidnaps a child and asks for ransom

the family calls the cops and the cartel is arrested, child is returned home.

cartel lawyers: well no crime was committed because the child was returned and they never got any money!

GOP: yup, witch hunt!
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OhhhJa
12/16/19 9:51:24 AM
#87:


Imagine advocating for joe biden lol. Dude is a creep and the dementia is setting in hard
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darkknight109
12/16/19 9:52:26 AM
#88:


OhhhJa posted...
Dude is a creep and the dementia is setting in hard
Funniest thing in the world coming from a Trump supporter.

---
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Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
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OhhhJa
12/16/19 9:54:37 AM
#89:


darkknight109 posted...
Funniest thing in the world coming from a Trump supporter.
Not really. Trump doesn't have 5000 videos of him weirdly grabbing kids and saying stuff about roaches and kids jumping on his lap
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Blighboy
12/16/19 10:38:53 AM
#90:


Look, having nuclear my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart you know, if youre a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say Im one of the smartest people anywhere in the world its true! but when youre a conservative Republican they try oh, do they do a number thats why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because were a little disadvantaged but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me it would have been so easy, and its not as important as these lives are nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of whats going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? but when you look at whats going on with the four prisoners now it used to be three, now its four but when it was three and even now, I would have said its all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they dont, they havent figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, its gonna take them about another 150 years but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.

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I have no idea whether or not he's a racist, but apparently there are recordings of him using racial slurs so it's a distinct possibility.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/16/19 10:43:39 AM
#91:


darkknight109 posted...
First you say that Shokin was trying to fight corruption, now you're agreeing with me that he's corrupt?
I said "investigating a company within their country and what happened with a preosecutor in their legal system that was looking into that company." I didn't say he was tryting to fight corruption. If anything he was inadequate in his role of looking into it.

darkknight109 posted...
Trump cannot "approve" aid! He is literally not allowed to do that! That's part of the reason *why* he's in so much trouble.

It is congress's job to approve aid and determine how much is spent and in what way. Not the president's.
So if the president has doubt about whether sending aid is in the interest of the US is he not able to go before congress with reasons why they should reconsider?

darkknight109 posted...
why did he release them as soon as the whistleblower complaint was filed? Why did he try to blame another part of the government? Why didn't he just stand up and say, "I ordered the funds frozen, because I am concerned about corruption in Ukraine?"
He would have liked to test them further but was adequately convinced he wasn't giving aid to the bad guys.
With the Ukrainians aware of the delay he released the aid lest the delay itself become an obstacle in future diplomacy.
He doesn't want to openly say he thought the Ukraine President was shady following the willingness he has shown to help the US. That would be bad diplomacy.

darkknight109 posted...
First off, I have to say that your argument that Trump was too stupid to realize something that was literally part of his job to be refreshingly honest about his capabilities as president.
Trump's policies are America first. I imagine foreign affairs are a low priority to him.

darkknight109 posted...
That being said, we do know when Trump knew of the situation in Ukraine, because various people have testified about it. Trump disliked Ukraine, because he latched onto conspiracy theories that it was actually them that hacked the election and they did so as a false-flag on behalf of the Democrats
I see this doesn't actually mention a time frame.
Since he does believe this, it's all the more reason for him to question if sending them aid is helping the bad guys.

darkknight109 posted...
He badmouthed her constantly to Trump, who eventually ordered her dismissal, despite several people in the State Department urging Mike Pompeo to step up and defend her, because the allegations being made against her were unfounded.
Without knowing what Rudy Giuliani said to Trump about her, if Trump was lead to think she was part of the problem in Ukraine then why would he trust her in helping determine if sending aid to Ukraine is in the interest of the US?

darkknight109 posted...
It would be more politically damaging to him than Biden if he was seen to be ordering the investigation.
So he needed to do information gathering on his own to a) determine if an investigation was called for and b) ensure it's success if it is. That required cooperation with Ukraine.

---
No locked doors, no windows barred. No more things to make my brain seem SKARD.
Look at Mr. Technical over here >.> -BTB
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SKARDAVNELNATE
12/16/19 10:44:00 AM
#92:


darkknight109 posted...
You're the one who made the allegation that Biden's actions were corrupt, brah, not the media. Trying to deflect on to them is not going to work.
No, I said "If it were anyone other than Trump making the request the media stories would be about the Biden foreign nepotism scandal."

As for why I suspect Biden actually is corrupt - The US had to withhold aid to Ukraine in the past to remove the previously mentioned prosecutor. It was Biden's job to pressure Ukraine into doing this.The company that the prosecutor was meant to investigate employs Biden's son. Then when an investigation does occur there were no grounds for charges.

darkknight109 posted...
Zelenskiy booked time on CNN to make that announcement. He cancelled it
Well that's unfortunate because an announcement would have cleared things up.

---
No locked doors, no windows barred. No more things to make my brain seem SKARD.
Look at Mr. Technical over here >.> -BTB
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Mead
12/16/19 11:32:03 AM
#93:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
As for why I suspect Biden actually is corrupt - The US had to withhold aid to Ukraine in the past to remove the previously mentioned prosecutor. It was Biden's job to pressure Ukraine into doing this.The company that the prosecutor was meant to investigate employs Biden's son.

theres literally a mountain of bipartisan evidence from countries all around the world that this is not the case and Biden was literally fighting against corruption when pushing to have that prosecutor removed

meanwhile there simply is zero evidence whatsoever that can be presented showing any wrongdoing surrounding the removal of the prosecutor

compare that to the tidal wave of corrupt intent and open admissions of wrongdoing by trump regarding Ukraine and maybe ask yourself why you arent using the smart part of your brain and are instead being bamboozled by two dimensional propaganda

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Lemonheads
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darkknight109
12/16/19 11:44:48 AM
#94:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
I said "investigating a company within their country and what happened with a preosecutor in their legal system that was looking into that company." I didn't say he was tryting to fight corruption. If anything he was inadequate in his role of looking into it.
Fucking what? You want Shokin to investigate himself?

And yes, he was inadequate into looking into Burisma - that's exactly what I said in my first post. That's precisely why the Americans - with Joe Biden as their point man - the EU, and the IMF all wanted him gone.

Do you see the problem yet? You're arguing that Biden was corrupt, while simultaneously arguing that he was trying to get a prosecutor shitcanned who was overlooking the corruption you're accusing him of partaking in. That is the opposite of a sensible argument.

Please decide which set of Republican talking points you're going to stick with - when you mix them together, the logical inconsistencies are rather jarring.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
So if the president has doubt about whether sending aid is in the interest of the US is he not able to go before congress with reasons why they should reconsider?
Sure. And if Trump had done that, he would have been completely within his rights.

But he didn't do that. He didn't stand before the relevant committees in congress and say, "I think this aid is misguided." Maybe he met with some of them privately, that's possible - but in the end, he failed to convince them of any concerns he may or may not have had and congress - who, as a reminder, have exclusive power over government spending - did not rescind their spending order.

So yes, if Trump presses on and refuses to spend money on Ukraine, despite congress telling him he has to, he is violating appropriations law. He is allowed to go before congress and voice concerns; he's not allowed to unilaterally change spending priorities when congress tells him to get lost.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
He would have liked to test them further but was adequately convinced he wasn't giving aid to the bad guys.
Good grief, this level of straw-grabbing is just sad.

How did he "test" Ukraine? He attempted to solicit a bribe, Ukraine demurred, and that's supposed to prove... what, exactly?

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
With the Ukrainians aware of the delay he released the aid lest the delay itself become an obstacle in future diplomacy.
Pentagon e-mails and testimony from Laura Cooper show that Ukraine was well aware that the aid was delayed and were asking the US what the holdup was as early as July, before Trump ever made his demands to Zelenskiy. It was already an obstacle in diplomacy before that phone call ever took place.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
He doesn't want to openly say he thought the Ukraine President was shady following the willingness he has shown to help the US. That would be bad diplomacy.
But holding up military aid that an ally desperately needs to fight off a geopolitical rival isn't?

You have strange priorities.

Seriously, this is an absolutely ridiculous non-defence here. Trump thought Ukraine was corrupt, so he fires his anti-corruption ambassador, asks Ukraine to investigate an American citizen and political rival, then is so pleased with their non-answer and worried he's ruining diplomatic relations that he panics and releases the aid despite Ukraine doing nothing? Do you not realize how utterly nonsensical that sounds?

---
Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
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darkknight109
12/16/19 11:44:52 AM
#95:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Without knowing what Rudy Giuliani said to Trump about her, if Trump was lead to think she was part of the problem in Ukraine then why would he trust her in helping determine if sending aid to Ukraine is in the interest of the US?
Even if he opted to replace her with someone else, that doesn't change the process. Just use whatever person he sends in to replace her to carry out the process instead.

Situations like this are the exact reason why there are procedures for asking a foreign country for assistance in an investigation - so that all possibilities for even the appearance of a conflict of interest are addressed.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
So he needed to do information gathering on his own to a) determine if an investigation was called for and b) ensure it's success if it is. That required cooperation with Ukraine.
So let me get this straight: You think that Trump needed an investigation to see if an investigation was warranted, so he contacted a country he suspected of being untrustworthy to help him with his investigation into their trustworthiness and withheld aid to test that trustworthiness then released it when they proved they were trustworthy by doing nothing and not acceding to any of his demands.

Do I about have the long and short of this incredibly ridiculous defence?

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The US had to withhold aid to Ukraine in the past to remove the previously mentioned prosecutor.
Technically they didn't withhold aid, they just threatened to not guarantee any more Ukrainian loans unless Shokin was fired.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
It was Biden's job to pressure Ukraine into doing this.The company that the prosecutor was meant to investigate employs Biden's son.
Hmm, you're right, that sure sounds suspicious... until you remember that the EU and the IMF were also pushing for Shokin's ouster and that the main entity on the US side pressing for him to be fired was the American embassy, not Biden (Biden was apparently pressed into service at the embassy's request, as they wanted some big guns to lean on Ukrainian leadership). Or are you going to tell me that all of those groups also had sons working for Ukrainian companies that Shokin was supposed to be investigating?

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Then when an investigation does occur there were no grounds for charges.
So did a concurrent British investigation into the same transactions.

Lemme guess - Biden tried to get them fired too?

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Well that's unfortunate because an announcement would have cleared things up.
Unlikely - it just would have been Zelenskiy giving into Trump's extortion, which is why he immediately cancelled it as soon as the aid was released.

If anything, that should be a pretty solid indicator of how well-founded Trump's accusations were (which is to say, not at all).

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Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
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reason
12/16/19 12:49:49 PM
#96:


I_Always_Die posted...
yeah they impeached a guy for getting a blowjob and not a guy who bribed a foreign government to fuck with our Presidential election. so weird.

I'm sure by now this has already been stated, but Clinton didn't get impeached for that. He got impeached for lying to Congress.

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"Who knows where thoughts come from, they just appear?! - Lucus - Empire Records
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Mead
12/16/19 12:52:14 PM
#97:


Clinton would have been removed if he had lied about something more serious like butt stuff

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Lemonheads
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HornedLion
12/16/19 1:36:31 PM
#98:


Just had a fiery discussion with a coworker about all this, and I figured out what their reasoning is for being okay with the majority of the country wanting one thing but instead the minority winning.

Their talking point to that is mob rule. Yup. You heard it right. NYers, Californians, highly populated areas, the college educated, and the like... are all a mob.

In the end, though, after getting hit with all the facts they were left with, Why the outrage now, what about when Obama.... Whataboutisms. Thats all theyre left with in the end.

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Don't runaway from troubles... instead meet them Hedons.
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Nade Duck
12/16/19 1:43:36 PM
#99:


imo trump stinky

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"Most of the time, I have a whole lot more sperm inside me than most women do." - adjl
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Mead
12/16/19 2:02:44 PM
#100:


Nade Duck posted...
imo trump stinky

too far man

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Lemonheads
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