Current Events > Trans themes in The Matrix

Topic List
Page List: 1, 2
fohstick
12/10/19 2:05:26 PM
#1:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix#Trans_themes

After the release of The Matrix, both the Wachowskis came out as transgender women, and some have seen trans themes in the film.[148] The red pill has been compared with red estrogen pills.[149] Morpheus's description of the Matrix giving you a sense that something is fundamentally wrong, "like a splinter in your mind", has been compared to gender dysphoria.[149] Also, in the original script, Switch was one gender in the Matrix and another gender in the real world, but this idea was ultimately dropped.[150] In a 2016 GLAAD Media Awards speech, Lilly Wachowski said "Theres a critical eye being cast back on Lana and Is work through the lens of our transness. This is a cool thing because its an excellent reminder that art is never static."[151]

Are estrogen pills really the red pills?
... Copied to Clipboard!
WrkHrdPlayHrdr
12/10/19 2:39:19 PM
#2:


Were both "brothers" transgender? I knew about one but not both.

---
"I also advised their executives through e-mail that further behavior could result in a cyber attack[...]"
https://imgur.com/cSxy3Od
... Copied to Clipboard!
shockthemonkey
12/10/19 2:40:17 PM
#3:


WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...
Were both "brothers" transgender? I knew about one but not both.
There are better ways to phrase your question, but yes, both sisters are trans.

---
Support local music.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Solid Sonic
12/10/19 2:40:29 PM
#4:


WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...
Were both "brothers" transgender? I knew about one but not both.

Yeah, they both underwent gender reassignment procedures.

---
"It feels like I'm always wrong."
"Nah, that's not true...I mean you just made that statement, didn't you?"
... Copied to Clipboard!
WrkHrdPlayHrdr
12/10/19 2:41:16 PM
#5:


shockthemonkey posted...
There are better ways to phrase your question, but yes, both sisters are trans.

I figured but I wasn't sure since they were credited as the Wachowski Brothers on the film. I didn't mean anything by it, I swear.

---
"I also advised their executives through e-mail that further behavior could result in a cyber attack[...]"
https://imgur.com/cSxy3Od
... Copied to Clipboard!
Choco
12/10/19 2:43:54 PM
#6:


r/theredpill in shambles

---
... Copied to Clipboard!
Jagr_68
12/10/19 2:47:00 PM
#7:


Choco posted...
r/theredpill in shambles

LOL the butthurt's gonna be so real

---
... Copied to Clipboard!
shockthemonkey
12/10/19 2:47:08 PM
#8:


WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...
I figured but I wasn't sure since they were credited as the Wachowski Brothers on the film. I didn't mean anything by it, I swear.
No worries, Id just say in the future watch out for using the past tense because that makes it seem like being trans is a thing they did rather than a personal part of who they are.

---
Support local music.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Pepys Monster
12/10/19 2:48:27 PM
#9:


I think that this is a bit of a stretch. They wanted to make a sci-fi movie.

---
GOML
... Copied to Clipboard!
MARKINGRAM22
12/10/19 2:48:51 PM
#10:


shockthemonkey posted...
There are better ways to phrase your question, but yes, both sisters are trans.
Ughhh
... Copied to Clipboard!
WrkHrdPlayHrdr
12/10/19 2:49:27 PM
#11:


shockthemonkey posted...
No worries, Id just say in the future watch out for using the past tense because that makes it seem like being trans is a thing they did rather than a personal part of who they are.


Got it, thanks.


---
"I also advised their executives through e-mail that further behavior could result in a cyber attack[...]"
https://imgur.com/cSxy3Od
... Copied to Clipboard!
MARKINGRAM22
12/10/19 2:50:44 PM
#12:


WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...
Got it, thanks.
Now atone for your sins
... Copied to Clipboard!
shockthemonkey
12/10/19 2:51:26 PM
#13:


MARKINGRAM22 posted...
Ughhh
What are you mad about? Relax buddy.

---
Support local music.
... Copied to Clipboard!
WrkHrdPlayHrdr
12/10/19 2:54:37 PM
#14:


MARKINGRAM22 posted...
Now atone for your sins

Four or five Hail Marys do it?

---
"I also advised their executives through e-mail that further behavior could result in a cyber attack[...]"
https://imgur.com/cSxy3Od
... Copied to Clipboard!
The-19th-Sparta
12/10/19 2:59:57 PM
#15:


shockthemonkey posted...
There are better ways to phrase your question, but yes, both sisters are trans.

They were known for a long time as The Wachowski Brothers so his question is obviously innocent. You dont have to respond like youre the resident SJW representative.

---
#40 Henrik Zetterberg | #55 Niklas Kronwall
Thanks for everything boys.
... Copied to Clipboard!
shockthemonkey
12/10/19 3:01:50 PM
#16:


The-19th-Sparta posted...
They were known for a long time as The Wachowski Brothers so his question is obviously innocent. You dont have to respond like youre the resident SJW representative.

shockthemonkey posted...
What are you mad about? Relax buddy.


---
Support local music.
... Copied to Clipboard!
vigorm0rtis
12/10/19 3:02:57 PM
#17:


I'm not inclined to put a lot of stock in postmodern analysis. It's occasionally interesting, and while conjuring up new meanings for art that wasn't intended might have personal significance for us individually, I'm not sure it has any merit.

---
"Can't wait to count out your coin!" -- Bethesda, 2018
... Copied to Clipboard!
WrkHrdPlayHrdr
12/10/19 3:05:18 PM
#18:


The-19th-Sparta posted...
They were known for a long time as The Wachowski Brothers so his question is obviously innocent. You dont have to respond like youre the resident SJW representative.

They didn't give me shit. Seemed like a genuine attempt to correct something that may offend trans people that i'm not aware of.

In fact, they explained it later:

shockthemonkey posted...
No worries, Id just say in the future watch out for using the past tense because that makes it seem like being trans is a thing they did rather than a personal part of who they are.


My question was answered and they gave me some practical advice. Not sure why you're giving them crap.

---
"I also advised their executives through e-mail that further behavior could result in a cyber attack[...]"
https://imgur.com/cSxy3Od
... Copied to Clipboard!
TheBlueMonk_
12/10/19 3:05:40 PM
#19:


MARKINGRAM22 posted...
Ughhh
"libs are so triggered by anything, you can't say anything!"

*see something they dont like*

UGH IM TRIGGERED!!!

do yourself a favor and shut your mouth and know your role.

---
Park Minyoung NOONA <3
https://imgur.com/F5yuHSF
... Copied to Clipboard!
thanosibe
12/10/19 3:08:18 PM
#20:


vigorm0rtis posted...
I'm not inclined to put a lot of stock in postmodern analysis. It's occasionally interesting, and while conjuring up new meanings for art that wasn't intended might have personal significance for us individually, I'm not sure it has any merit.
It doesn't. That's why fan fiction is such a popular thing. If what I want to see X in Y fiction that isn't there by the original author, then I will just make my own stories in Y fiction so I can see X. People trying to see something where there is nothing is why literature is a legit class of academia.

---
I think I need a drink. Almost everybody does only they don't know it. -- Charles Bukowski
... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel
12/10/19 3:18:01 PM
#21:


vigorm0rtis posted...
I'm not inclined to put a lot of stock in postmodern analysis. It's occasionally interesting, and while conjuring up new meanings for art that wasn't intended might have personal significance for us individually, I'm not sure it has any merit.

Pepys Monster posted...
I think that this is a bit of a stretch. They wanted to make a sci-fi movie.
do either of you have any idea how much imagery in the matrix relates to trans issues?

---
peanut butter and dick
... Copied to Clipboard!
DevsChum
12/10/19 3:26:34 PM
#22:


Ok the pill thing is hilarious.

The "something is wrong" is more likely a reference to the Allegory of the Cave, since the whole film is, but I suppose there could have been a hint of inspiration from trans stuff as well.

And yeah, Switch is undeniable.

---
This is the account I use when I want to make more than ten topics on CE in one day.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Tupacrulez
12/10/19 3:27:22 PM
#23:


averagejoel posted...
do either of you have any idea how much imagery in the matrix relates to trans issues?

Nope. I don't either.

Please retroactively explain.

---
Suck less, Rock Moar
Company I work for sends screwed up pieces out all the time.-r4xor, the professional welder.
... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel
12/10/19 3:39:57 PM
#24:


Tupacrulez posted...
Nope. I don't either.

Please retroactively explain.
this thread on twitter does a good job of it

https://twitter.com/supership79/status/764646652665790465?s=19

it get cut off at one point, but the thread resumes here:
https://twitter.com/supership79/status/764926673682857984?s=19

short answer: there's a lot.
some selected bits:

the first shot of the movie opens with "trans opt" written prominently on the scene

Agent Smith deadnames neo throughout the movie, and does so because he knows it bothers him. neo always looks uncomfortable in his usual work garb.

the character Switch was originally going to be a different gender outside the matrix than inside it. she's wearing a binder when we first see her. also her name is Switch lol

lots of medical imagery when Neo is getting accustomed to his new body

mirrors, a common source of dysphoria for trans people, recur many, many, many times throughout

---
peanut butter and dick
... Copied to Clipboard!
Tupacrulez
12/11/19 12:12:04 AM
#25:


The issue with Al that is that is an analysis with a narrative to adhere to.

If there's a contemporary article detailing it, I'll say you're right.

Till then, it's people looking for shit to follow their idea.

---
Suck less, Rock Moar
Company I work for sends screwed up pieces out all the time.-r4xor, the professional welder.
... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel
12/11/19 12:24:19 AM
#26:


Tupacrulez posted...
The issue with Al that is that is an analysis with a narrative to adhere to.

If there's a contemporary article detailing it, I'll say you're right.

Till then, it's people looking for shit to follow their idea.
what are you talking about

the thread is literally just showing trans imagery. complete with many screenshots and explanations

and... it seems like pretty ordinary note-taking for literary purposes to me

---
peanut butter and dick
... Copied to Clipboard!
Tupacrulez
12/11/19 12:27:35 AM
#27:


Maybe I'm just blind as fuck, but I don't see "trans imagery" in that shit you posted.

And since it's been posted by people specifically looking for that trans imagery, they have a clear bias and narrative.

What I'm saying is, if someone said, in 1999, "hey this film is filled with transgender imagery", I'd buy it.
But now it's just people looking for it.

There. I spelled er out for ya.

---
Suck less, Rock Moar
Company I work for sends screwed up pieces out all the time.-r4xor, the professional welder.
... Copied to Clipboard!
dave_is_slick
12/11/19 12:28:38 AM
#28:


averagejoel posted...
what are you talking about
The very first sentence:

"So, I thought I'd watch The Matrix looking for trans subtext..."
If you're explicitly looking for something, you'll see it everywhere, even in places it's not.

---
The most relaxing version of Aquatic Ambiance I've ever heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl61y1XM7sM
... Copied to Clipboard!
evil_zombie11
12/11/19 12:31:39 AM
#29:


Choco posted...
r/theredpill in shambles

this will be hilarious


---
Yo wtf
Probably lifting or running...
... Copied to Clipboard!
Wewillrocku
12/11/19 12:31:39 AM
#30:


Tupacrulez posted...
Maybe I'm just blind as fuck, but I don't see "trans imagery" in that shit you posted.

And since it's been posted by people specifically looking for that trans imagery, they have a clear bias and narrative.

What I'm saying is, if someone said, in 1999, "hey this film is filled with transgender imagery", I'd buy it.
But now it's just people looking for it.

There. I spelled er out for ya.
err, there's no bias or narrative. the pill is something women have experience with. i now see how the red pill makes sense that way.

---
The american prison system is a sorry mess but giving them game consoles isn't going to solve anything.
Zurriah
... Copied to Clipboard!
DrizztLink
12/11/19 12:33:32 AM
#31:


WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...
My question was answered and they gave me some practical advice. Not sure why you're giving them crap.
They simply must strike back against the omnipresent SJW Boogeyman that keeps flipping its shit and attacking people.

pay no attention to them being the ones flipping their shit and attacking people

---
... Copied to Clipboard!
MrMallard
12/11/19 12:43:56 AM
#32:


Tupacrulez posted...
Maybe I'm just blind as fuck, but I don't see "trans imagery" in that shit you posted.

And since it's been posted by people specifically looking for that trans imagery, they have a clear bias and narrative.

What I'm saying is, if someone said, in 1999, "hey this film is filled with transgender imagery", I'd buy it.
But now it's just people looking for it.

There. I spelled er out for ya.

In a 2016 GLAAD Media Awards speech, Lilly Wachowski said "Theres a critical eye being cast back on Lana and Is work through the lens of our transness. This is a cool thing because its an excellent reminder that art is never static."

I thought this was an interesting quote from the filmmakers, though of course it doesn't confirm or deny anything. It's simply a nice statement about how beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Ultimately we all have our own unique views and opinions on stuff, and there's nothing stopping you from seeing the movie as a standard sci-fi flick. There's also no real reason why people should pay the author any mind after the text has been published - death of the author is a thing - or why people should view the text through a different lens.

But in the same vein, there's nothing stopping someone from applying a new critical framework to an old text. Even if something is unintended, the fact that there are movies that seem to meet the views of these critical frameworks is worth discussing among people who are open to that sort of thing.

Basically, no-one has to view The Matrix as depicting LGBTQIA themes if they don't want to, but the discussion is there, things seem to be lining up for the people who find the idea fascinating and people are interested in the idea. This doesn't supercede the text, but applying it as subtext has got a lot of people excited.

Anyone can enjoy the text as it stands, but applying different ideas, theories and themes as subtext isn't necessarily bunk if that's not an angle you're interested in pursuing.

---
And I am done with my graceless heart, so tonight I'm gonna cut it out and then restart
Now Playing: Yakuza 5, Final Fantasy X-2, Minecraft
... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel
12/11/19 12:46:36 AM
#33:


Tupacrulez posted...
And since it's been posted by people specifically looking for that trans imagery, they have a clear bias and narrative.

What I'm saying is, if someone said, in 1999, "hey this film is filled with transgender imagery", I'd buy it.
But now it's just people looking for it.
that's... how literary analysis works dude. essays start with people doing a close reading of the work in question while paying attention to a specific aspect of it. the person was gathering data.

the imagery is all there in the movie. the person on twitter is just pointing it out.

like come on, this is basic stuff that people learn about writing literary essays in high school

this person wasn't even making an argument to begin with -- they watched the movie while paying attention to the imagery associated with trans issues, and they found a ton of it.

---
peanut butter and dick
... Copied to Clipboard!
Kensaimage
12/11/19 12:59:36 AM
#34:


WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...
I figured but I wasn't sure since they were credited as the Wachowski Brothers on the film. I didn't mean anything by it, I swear.

You dont need to apologize. Nothing you said was at all malicious or out of sorts, and you clearly meant no ill will
... Copied to Clipboard!
malenz
12/11/19 1:14:32 AM
#35:


I don't believe the redpill/bluepill thing is precisely trans imagry. Seems like a stretch to me. I think a lot of calming type pills (like ambien) can be blue colored to appeal to humany imagry that relates blue to calmness more than it being a trans thing.
... Copied to Clipboard!
DrizztLink
12/11/19 1:19:15 AM
#36:


... Copied to Clipboard!
Tupacrulez
12/11/19 1:28:13 AM
#37:


averagejoel posted...
that's... how literary analysis works dude. essays start with people doing a close reading of the work in question while paying attention to a specific aspect of it. the person was gathering data.

the imagery is all there in the movie. the person on twitter is just pointing it out.

like come on, this is basic stuff that people learn about writing literary essays in high school

this person wasn't even making an argument to begin with -- they watched the movie while paying attention to the imagery associated with trans issues, and they found a ton of it.


"So, I thought I'd watch The Matrix looking for trans subtext"

Says right there. Dude was looking for it. I don't know how to say it any clearer.

Find me a contemporary article from 1999, or even halfway closer than 20 years off, detailing this shit, and I'll believe you.

Till then, it's people filling a narrative.


---
Suck less, Rock Moar
Company I work for sends screwed up pieces out all the time.-r4xor, the professional welder.
... Copied to Clipboard!
DrizztLink
12/11/19 2:28:12 AM
#38:


Tupacrulez posted...
"So, I thought I'd watch The Matrix looking for trans subtext"

Says right there. Dude was looking for it. I don't know how to say it any clearer.

Find me a contemporary article from 1999, or even halfway closer than 20 years off, detailing this shit, and I'll believe you.

Till then, it's people filling a narrative.
...what are you not understanding

---
... Copied to Clipboard!
jumi
12/11/19 3:38:05 AM
#39:


Tupacrulez posted...
"So, I thought I'd watch The Matrix looking for trans subtext"

Says right there. Dude was looking for it. I don't know how to say it any clearer.

Find me a contemporary article from 1999, or even halfway closer than 20 years off, detailing this shit, and I'll believe you.

Till then, it's people filling a narrative.

Because two trans women writing a movie could not have consciously or unconsciously depicted trans themes and subtexts in their works when they wrote it. It has to have been a coincidence only seen after the fact. </sarcasm>

---
XBL Gamertag: Rob Thorsman
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/robertvsilvers
... Copied to Clipboard!
gunplagirl
12/11/19 3:48:57 AM
#40:


To answer the OP, when the movies were being made estrogen was in red pills.

---
https://i.imgtc.ws/x2KBsjI.png
tfw no big tiddy goth vampire gf who lactates blood - viewmaster_pi
... Copied to Clipboard!
vigorm0rtis
12/11/19 3:54:02 AM
#41:


thanosibe posted...
IPeople trying to see something where there is nothing is why literature is a legit class of academia.

No. Actual study of literature is rigorous in a lot of ways. I understand if you've only taken some shallow end classes, but... yeah, you just sound ignorant. And I have trouble seeing how fanfic has anything to do with postmodern analysis.

---
"Can't wait to count out your coin!" -- Bethesda, 2018
... Copied to Clipboard!
vigorm0rtis
12/11/19 3:55:23 AM
#42:


averagejoel posted...
that's... how literary analysis works dude. essays start with people doing a close reading of the work in question while paying attention to a specific aspect of it. the person was gathering data.


That's how shoddy literary analysis works. You can 'prove' anything using softheaded postmodern nonsense.

---
"Can't wait to count out your coin!" -- Bethesda, 2018
... Copied to Clipboard!
vigorm0rtis
12/11/19 3:57:18 AM
#43:


averagejoel posted...
do either of you have any idea how much imagery in the matrix relates to trans issues?

I do. It's worth noting that the Wachowskis themselves acknowledge that isn't what the film is about but appreciate that people continue to find value in the film.

---
"Can't wait to count out your coin!" -- Bethesda, 2018
... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel
12/11/19 6:58:25 AM
#44:




Tupacrulez posted...
"So, I thought I'd watch The Matrix looking for trans subtext"

Says right there. Dude was looking for it. I don't know how to say it any clearer.
yes, I'm aware. and there was a lot of it. that thread is not making an argument; it is the compiling of the data.

vigorm0rtis posted...
That's how shoddy literary analysis works. You can 'prove' anything using softheaded postmodern nonsense.
and the thread isn't trying to prove anything. it's only showing the trans subtext in the movie

---
peanut butter and dick
... Copied to Clipboard!
Wewillrocku
12/11/19 9:57:21 AM
#45:


malenz posted...
I don't believe the redpill/bluepill thing is precisely trans imagry. Seems like a stretch to me. I think a lot of calming type pills (like ambien) can be blue colored to appeal to humany imagry that relates blue to calmness more than it being a trans thing.
lol

---
The american prison system is a sorry mess but giving them game consoles isn't going to solve anything.
Zurriah
... Copied to Clipboard!
Lorenzo_2003
12/11/19 10:11:52 AM
#46:


vigorm0rtis posted...
It's worth noting that the Wachowskis themselves acknowledge that isn't what the film is about but appreciate that people continue to find value in the film.

If that is true, then this whole thread has been much ado about nothing.

---
...
... Copied to Clipboard!
shockthemonkey
12/11/19 10:12:28 AM
#47:


Saying we cant apply a postmodern analysis to a postmodern movie is bizarre

---
Support local music.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Tupacrulez
12/11/19 10:26:10 AM
#48:


Lorenzo_2003 posted...
If that is true, then this whole thread has been much ado about nothing.

Of course it is.
It's just a circle jerk over "oh yeah that's totally what they meant! How deep!"

---
Suck less, Rock Moar
Company I work for sends screwed up pieces out all the time.-r4xor, the professional welder.
... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel
12/11/19 10:29:53 AM
#49:


Lorenzo_2003 posted...
If that is true, then this whole thread has been much ado about nothing.
the film is "about" a group of people trying to free humanity from a simulation and one man who has the power to help them do it. we aren't talking about that though

factually speaking, The Matrix was created by two then-closeted trans women. as you can see (if you've read that twitter thread), there is a lot of imagery that relates to trans issues.

the findings are not de-legitimized just because the person was looking specifically for trans subtext

---
peanut butter and dick
... Copied to Clipboard!
Tupacrulez
12/11/19 10:34:55 AM
#50:


If I'm looking for proof of God in the world, I'll find lots of things that I can say are "imagery of god"

Doesn't mean God exists.

The people combing through this stuff looking for any little thing ("oh my god the red pill is estrogen and the blue pill is to calm you!") are doing so with an agenda.
Amoxicillin comes in red pills too. Is that relevant?
The most prolific blue pill in the 90s (and indeed, likely ever) is taken to give you a fucking hard-on.

It's just people with a narrative.

---
Suck less, Rock Moar
Company I work for sends screwed up pieces out all the time.-r4xor, the professional welder.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Topic List
Page List: 1, 2