Poll of the Day > Oh man Jedi Fallen order is great

(+) Yeah! (+)

Not too far in but I'm having a blast so far
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I only play Star Wars games that have microtransactions.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

I only play Star Wars games that have microtransactions.

Yeah battlefront 2 was great as well put like 300 hours in, how many microtransactions did i buy? None. It's weird when people cry about them no one is forcing anyone to buy them
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I don't mind microtransactions as long as they are done right. I never played BF2 but when it was first coming out the things I read about the microtransaction system they had planned for it was terrible. And if people complaining about it forced them to have to change it then that's good. And you're right about not being forced to buy them, but there are factors that make it so buying them gives you an advantage over players that don't.

But as long as they are for just cosmetic things I'm fine with them.

Now, away from the microtransactions. I'm glad there's a good Star Wars game out! I'm hesitant to give EA any money but I'm curious to check this game out.
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JoanOfArcade posted...

It's weird when people cry about them no one is forcing anyone to buy them

Whether you accept the premise or not, you still played through hours and hours of unnecessary grind added solely to encourage addictive behavior and spending, and gained less than you otherwise would have without the mechanic.

Even if you enjoyed the game, it was still objectively worse than it would have been without them.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

JoanOfArcade posted...

It's weird when people cry about them no one is forcing anyone to buy them

Whether you accept the premise or not, you still played through hours and hours of unnecessary grind added solely to encourage addictive behavior and spending, and gained less than you otherwise would have without the mechanic.

Even if you enjoyed the game, it was still objectively worse than it would have been without them.

Eh, you're talking more specifically about loot boxes rather than just microtransactions. I find loot boxes to be far worse than microtransactions. And yes, I know technically loot boxes are microtransactions. they are just their own type. Loot boxes is where the addiction part comes into play.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

Eh, you're talking more specifically about loot boxes rather than just microtransactions

I'm referring to anything that leads developers to increase the grind of a game to encourage spending. Loot boxes are particularly efficient at it, but any microtransaction that has gameplay advantages encourages developers to do so (GTA Online is almost entirely built on it, and doesn't have a single loot box).

About the only microtransactions that don't skirt that line are purely 100% cosmetic ones, and even those have issues.

But there's more to it than just microtransactions. Diablo III arguably didn't have microtransactions at all (depending on your point of view), but the existence of the Real Money Auction House (and the fact that Blizzard took a cut from sales) meant they had a vested interest in "encouraging" players to use it... which is why item drop rates were deliberately skewed to drop items for classes you weren't playing as, and make really useful drops less common, solely to direct traffic to the Auction House.

And the effect of such was made blatantly obvious when the moment they rejigged the game to remove the Auction House, they also completely altered the drop mechanics for items to make them more appealing to players. They basically removed the artificial handicap because they no longer profited from it.

Every game you play with some form of microtransactions, whether you realize it or not, has been deliberately engineered to be a worse game solely to make those microtransactions more appealing, even if you personally never choose to use them, and the game can still be beaten/enjoyed without ever spending a penny.



AllstarSniper32 posted...

Loot boxes is where the addiction part comes into play.

Addiction is a lot more complicated than that. Normal games without microtransactions of any kind exploit addiction loops. Even cosmetic-only microtransactions exploit human psychology to guilt you via social pressure and FOMO to buy skins so you don't look like a basic bitch.

Loot boxes trigger the gambling addiction parts of the human brain, but it's not as if they're the only way to do so. There are plenty of mechanics in games without microtransactions at all that exploit RNG mechanics or gambling mechanics. Every RPG you've ever played with random loot drops is tapping into the same thing. Microtransactions and loot boxes just find ways to monetize that dynamic even more.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

which is why item drop rates were deliberately skewed to drop items for classes you weren't playing as, and make really useful drops less common, solely to direct traffic to the Auction House.

And the effect of such was made blatantly obvious when the moment they rejigged the game to remove the Auction House, they also completely altered the drop mechanics for items to make them more appealing to players. They basically removed the artificial handicap because they no longer profited from it.

Have you...never played a dungeon crawler before Diablo 3? I think Diablo 3 is one of the first to make random in game drops actually always be suited what the character you're currently playing as. And the reason they made the AH was because in Diablo 2 people were buying found items from 3rd party sites. While yes, I'm sure Blizzard felt they could cash in on people buying items in game doesn't mean money is the only reason they made the AH.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

About the only microtransactions that don't skirt that line are purely 100% cosmetic ones, and even those have issues.

Issues like what? For purely cosmetic items you're optionally paying for something that doesn't affect gameplay at all. They're adding cosmetic items which would otherwise not get added at all. Paying for that isn't bad, unless some game out there charges you like $20+ for a character skin.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Even cosmetic-only microtransactions exploit human psychology to guilt you via social pressure and FOMO to buy skins so you don't look like a basic bitch.

Oh, this is the negative you're trying to say? Yeah, unless they're over charging you for skins, they aren't exploiting this part of the brain. The only other way it'd be exploiting is when they put skins in loot boxes so you don't always get what you're paying for. Buying a skin for your characters is like buying a painting for a wall in your house.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Every RPG you've ever played with random loot drops is tapping into the same thing.

So are you trying to say all RPGs that have random in game loot drops are bad?
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

Oh, this is the negative you're trying to say? Yeah, unless they're over charging you for skins, they aren't exploiting this part of the brain.

Doesn't matter what they charge, cosmetic microtransactions are still psychologically manipulative, relying on social pressure instead of addiction. It's not at all uncommon these days for kids to get bullied for using the default skins in Fortnite, and while Epic certainly can't be directly blamed for that, you can't tell me they aren't fully aware of and eager to exploit that tendency. Companies want a situation where people who don't buy skins are considered cheap/poor by the rest of the community, because then those people feel compelled to buy some in order to fit in.

AllstarSniper32 posted...

Buying a skin for your characters is like buying a painting for a wall in your house.

And then having every house in the neighbourhood opened for public viewing. Cosmetics in multiplayer games are an opportunity to show off and look unique, and it's very easy to make people feel bad for not taking that opportunity. That's the social pressure PO was alluding to.

AllstarSniper32 posted...

So are you trying to say all RPGs that have random in game loot drops are bad?

Of course he's not saying that. He's saying that all RPG's with random loot drops contain an inherently addictive mechanic. That addictive mechanic then has the potential to be exploited for monetary gain, which may or may not happen depending on what the company wants to do. MMO's with subscription fees do this: People will play a game for longer to get random loot drops than fixed ones, even if the fixed ones drop at the same rate as the random ones would on average (i.e. people are much more willing to run a dungeon an unknown number of times for a 10% drop than to run it exactly 10 times for a guaranteed drop at the end of that), and playing the game longer means paying more for it.

This also comes into play when talking about cosmetic microtransactions. The longer you play a game, the more likely you are to get bored of the default models and want something new. This is where comments like "Fashion Souls is the real endgame" come from (though obviously Dark Souls isn't a game with cosmetic microtransactions). Playing a game for longer also makes paying for microtransactions feel more justifiable because you feel like you've gotten more value out of the game. Those microtransactions aren't exploiting addictive tendencies as directly as loot boxes do, no, but addictive gameplay can still be very easily monetized, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think AAA corporations have psychologists on staff explaining that to executives.
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adjl posted...

It's not at all uncommon these days for kids to get bullied for using the default skins in Fortnite,

When has this been a thing? Citation needed.
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microtransactions are never the right thing. same with paid DLC it divides communities. they want to trick you into thinking that they are doing you a favor by giving all this additional content at a small price when it shouldve been added from the start. the only thing DLC should be for is updates to fix bugs and thats it.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

adjl posted...

It's not at all uncommon these days for kids to get bullied for using the default skins in Fortnite,

When has this been a thing? Citation needed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/kids-feel-poor-if-they-dont-buy-custom-fortnite-skins-2019-10

It's also not remotely surprising. It's this generation's version of being bullied for not buying Pokemon cards, because kids have always been and will always be terrible. The point here isn't that it's happening, it's that there is ample potential for psychological manipulation even in cosmetic microtransactions.
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adjl posted...

It's also not remotely surprising.

I never said it wasn't surprising cause I agree, kids can be terrible.

adjl posted...

it's that there is ample potential for psychological manipulation even in cosmetic microtransactions.

Yes, but this is clearly not the company doing the manipulating. Unless of course the company is linked to telling people to bully others and make them feel like they need to buy cosmetic items. Now, I don't want to sound like I'm defending these companies cause they can be quite bad as well.

I'm mostly against loot boxes, but I'm fine with cosmetic microtransactions. As long as the cosmetic ones are appropriately priced.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

Yes, but this is clearly not the company doing the manipulating.

It's the company that created two visibly distinct classes of player in the first place. And regardless of whether or not they're actively, directly manipulating that social pressure, they're unambiguously exploiting it, which isn't much better.
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adjl posted...

It's the company that created two visibly distinct classes of player in the first place.

Nope, it seems the communities of the games did that.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

adjl posted...

It's the company that created two visibly distinct classes of player in the first place.

Nope, it seems the communities of the games did that.

The communities didn't create and sell the skins. It's the companies that create a visible distinction between players that are playing for free and players that have paid. It's the community that then ends up treating non-paying players differently, but there are absolutely things the developers can do to prevent or encourage that, depending on how much they want to capitalize on that social pressure.

Reposting from another thread.....

I'm torn between waiting for a sale on Steam or getting Origin Basic for $15 for a month to play the game. Based on gameplay videos I have seen, I think I will enjoy it. Combat seems more methodical and less "actiony" compared to Force Unleashed, which I am happy about. I personally prefer the slower combat system of Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy, and Dark Souls (which I have heard some comparison to), so overall will probably enjoy Jedi Fallen Order.

As someone who abused Quick Save in Jedi Outcast/Academy but also accustomed to the Dark Souls series, where does the difficulty of Jedi Fallen Order stand on Normal or the highest difficulty?
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If I can get it for feee Ill play it. I dont give EA my money anymore.

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AllstarSniper32 posted...

Nope, it seems the communities of the games did that.

_AdjI_ posted...

The communities didn't create and sell the skins.

_AdjI_ posted...

It's the community that then ends up treating non-paying players differently,

Right, that's what I said.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

AllstarSniper32 posted...

Nope, it seems the communities of the games did that.

_AdjI_ posted...

The communities didn't create and sell the skins.

_AdjI_ posted...

It's the community that then ends up treating non-paying players differently,

Right, that's what I said.

Yes, and then I said
_AdjI_ posted...

there are absolutely things the developers can do to prevent or encourage that, depending on how much they want to capitalize on that social pressure.

Do you have cause to disagree with that statement?
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InfestedAdam posted...

Reposting from another thread.....

I'm torn between waiting for a sale on Steam or getting Origin Basic for $15 for a month to play the game. Based on gameplay videos I have seen, I think I will enjoy it. Combat seems more methodical and less "actiony" compared to Force Unleashed, which I am happy about. I personally prefer the slower combat system of Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy, and Dark Souls (which I have heard some comparison to), so overall will probably enjoy Jedi Fallen Order.

As someone who abused Quick Save in Jedi Outcast/Academy but also accustomed to the Dark Souls series, where does the difficulty of Jedi Fallen Order stand on Normal or the highest difficulty?

I'd say a little closer to Sekiro with the parry and stamina system. Difficulty wise the only thing that really gave me trouble was an early optional boss
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Reminds me of The Force Unleashed from what I've seen however I'm aware the gameplay is a lot different. I'll pick it up at some point but not at full price because EA.
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