Poll of the Day > Geek+: Streaming Nerdy Nostalgia in 480i

(+) Yeah! (+)

If you liked that, though, you should also check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZk9MQa0YA

I feel like I've posted that before, but sometimes I remember that we've been doing these topics for like 12 years, and not everyone here has seen everything ever posted, so maybe the occasional repost isn't a terrible crime.

Actually, while we're on the topic, here's a slight shift of gears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNdpvNH1yi8

And then this was also a thing, for those who like/liked Doctor Who:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp_Fw5oDMao
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Has anyone been watching Star Trek: Picard? The first 3 episodes, I was all in, but this last one...I dunno guys. It's starting to veer dangerously close to weird fanfic/RPG territory here. I'm probably going to see it through to the end of the season at least, and I'll gladly rant about the episode if I'm not the only one watching it, but I'll wait and see is anyone else even cares, lol.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

If you liked that, though, you should also check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZk9MQa0YA

The pee joke should have gone on for another six minutes lol.
https://youtu.be/Sv_hGITmNuo
https://youtu.be/U9t-slLl30E
https://youtu.be/qFDT2L5bPFI

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Has anyone been watching Star Trek: Picard? The first 3 episodes, I was all in, but this last one...I dunno guys.

I've just been watching the RedLetterMedia guys complain about it, because I've never really been much of a Star Trek fan, and I'm not even remotely enough of a Star Trek fan to ever get CBS All Access to watch it.

I can relate to fans who view that show with dread and some degree of disgust, though, because I feel very uncomfortable about the fact that this is a thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(TV_series)

...though I won't be watching that one either, because Apple TV+ can really go fuck itself.

I feel like I saw a trailer for a sci-fi movie or tv show recently that actually kind of looked like it could be interesting, but I've forgotten what it was because I'm old now.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

I've just been watching the RedLetterMedia guys complain about it, because I've never really been much of a Star Trek fan, and I'm not even remotely enough of a Star Trek fan to ever get CBS All Access to watch it.

I can relate to fans who view that show with dread and some degree of disgust, though, because I feel very uncomfortable about the fact that this is a thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(TV_series)

...though I won't be watching that one either, because Apple TV+ can really go fuck itself.

I feel like I saw a trailer for a sci-fi movie or tv show recently that actually kind of looked like it could be interesting, but I've forgotten what it was because I'm old now.

I got into Foundation right up until the clown book, then I just said...fuck this shit tbh.

The whole Seldon Crisis thing was a great starting point but by the time we're dealing with literal Killer Clowns from Outer Space... *Sigh*, really?


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WhiskeyDisk posted...

I got into Foundation right up until the clown book, then I just said...fuck this shit tbh.

Pssht, philistine. The Mule is one of the best things in that series.

It doesn't get stupid until Gaia shows up.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Pssht, philistine. The Mule is one of the best things in that series.

It doesn't get stupid until Gaia shows up.

Juggalos? In my sci-fi? Pfft. No thanks.

Next you're going to tell me Snu-Snu improved Ringworld tremendously.

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Next you're going to tell me Snu-Snu improved Ringworld tremendously.

It did for Harry Potter IMO

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Juggalos? In my sci-fi? Pfft. No thanks.

He's not actually a clown, you know. At best you could probably say he was sort of a jester, but even that isn't entirely true.

http://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/fc/68/30fc6820c3f4b7df80da73f84fff5fa9.jpg



WhiskeyDisk posted...

Next you're going to tell me Snu-Snu improved Ringworld tremendously.

Snu-Snu improves pretty much everything.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Has anyone been watching Star Trek: Picard?

I have, but I am not up to date on the most recent episode because I have barely been home since it premiered. So far, the show is all right by me.


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Judghead: The Hunger is the first comic in a while that's really interested me >_> Read a few random issues, kinda want to check out the full run (maybe when it's combined into a TPB... assuming that it's not already?). Also still tempted by the Legion of Doom event that DC ran some time ago. Glanced through an issue of it which kinda includes the set-up


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My stupid password reset didn't work and I got locked of my account for a week. Anyway, after several password attempts it worked. I was scared I had lost my account forever. Anyway, I'm back and hopefully now I get to see what I missed.

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The Wave Master posted...

My stupid password reset didn't work and I got locked of my account for a week. Anyway, after several password attempts it worked. I was scared I had lost my account forever. Anyway, I'm back and hopefully now I get to see what I missed.

Change emails so you can reset the password.
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Zeus posted...

Judghead: The Hunger is the first comic in a while that's really interested me >_> Read a few random issues, kinda want to check out the full run (maybe when it's combined into a TPB... assuming that it's not already?). Also still tempted by the Legion of Doom event that DC ran some time ago. Glanced through an issue of it which kinda includes the set-up

I read that as "Jughead" and had flashbacks to Punisher meets Archie...

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My wife loves Sci Fi even more than I do, and as a compromise to stay married I have to watch Star Trek every night before we go to bed. The last week or so we have been watching the first season of Deep Space Nine. It's not been bad and I haven't watched the episodes since I was in college so a lot of it is new to me. It's not bad at all, and while I'm interested to see Picard I am not paying more money to another streaming service for two shows.

I guess I should clarify woth the whole marriage comment, in terms of I like comedy or cartoons before bed. I would love to watch The Simpsons or 90's Spider-man or X-Men, but Hapoy wife is a happy life. Thus I have to qatvha lot of Star Trek, and oddly Phantom of the Opera.

Marriage is about compromise.

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The Wave Master posted...

Marriage is about compromise.

Just hang in there until Scarlett get to late season 6 on DS9.

When she gets to Voyager, it's time to put your foot down.

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

I read that as "Jughead" and had flashbacks to Punisher meets Archie...

So did I - and I didn't even notice that it didn't say that until your post.

I just assumed it was another attempt on their part to stay hip and relevant, like the time they did Afterlife with Archie. With Jughead as a zombie. Or a vampire.
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If a vampire bites a zombie... does it become a vampire?

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Lol @ the doctor who one. Especially the female doctor part.

The other two were meh, but the third was worth it.

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Lokarin posted...

If a vampire bites a zombie... does it become a vampire?

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/v2o49/theoretically_what_would_happen_if_a_zombie_bit_a

Personally, I'm a fan of the idea that the vampire becomes a zombie and the zombie becomes a vampire, so you get two weird zombie/vampire hybrid weirdos.

Related:

http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/vampire-werewolf
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Personally, I'm a fan of the idea that the vampire becomes a zombie and the zombie becomes a vampire, so you get two weird zombie/vampire hybrid weirdos.

... who probably used to be a pair of Imperial Stormtroopers named Tag and Bink.

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

I read that as "Jughead" and had flashbacks to Punisher meets Archie...

It *is* Jughead. The "d" was a typo on my part.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

So did I - and I didn't even notice that it didn't say that until your post.

I just assumed it was another attempt on their part to stay hip and relevant, like the time they did Afterlife with Archie. With Jughead as a zombie. Or a vampire.

It's a delightful lark starring Jughead as a werewolf and featuring other monsters! Do you hate fun?

Lokarin posted...

If a vampire bites a zombie... does it become a vampire?

The vampire would likely just get really sick. In Being Human, werewolf blood made vampires violently ill (or, at least, up until the virus arc in the US version where it made them immune to contaminated human blood). The zombie, already being dead, likely wouldn't be affected (unless the zombie was still alive, at which point it'd either die or being a weird hybrid -- I imagine the brain function would remain gone)

idk, I seem to remember reading in one lore or mythos that people scratched by a vampire could become a zombie-like creature.

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The Wave Master posted...

My wife loves Sci Fi even more than I do, and as a compromise to stay married I have to watch Star Trek every night before we go to bed. The last week or so we have been watching the first season of Deep Space Nine. It's not been bad and I haven't watched the episodes since I was in college so a lot of it is new to me. It's not bad at all, and while I'm interested to see Picard I am not paying more money to another streaming service for two shows.

I guess I should clarify woth the whole marriage comment, in terms of I like comedy or cartoons before bed. I would love to watch The Simpsons or 90's Spider-man or X-Men, but Hapoy wife is a happy life. Thus I have to qatvha lot of Star Trek, and oddly Phantom of the Opera.

Marriage is about compromise.

There's ways to get around that. Also Deep Space Nine was one of my favorites.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Personally, I'm a fan of the idea that the vampire becomes a zombie and the zombie becomes a vampire, so you get two weird zombie/vampire hybrid weirdos.

Reminds me of that kooky Deadliest Warrior episode where they pitted 3 vampires against like, 200 zombies or some shit. I think the outcome was that the vampires won, but were zombified at the end anyways. I think the main debate was that while a vampire should have no problem not even being touched by your typical shambling zombie, the question was if there hemo-powers would prevent or make worse the zombie virus infection. Aka, in some lores/mythos, vampires are basically immune to diseases, especially blood ones.

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Deadliest Warrior was such lulz. The fight "science" was always a joke, but the episodes usually managed to entertain.

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Zeus posted...

Deadliest Warrior was such lulz. The fight "science" was always a joke, but the episodes usually managed to entertain.

Yeah, it was worth it just to see the weapon tests and for them to delve into the historical context of the warriors, and to see how certain armor reacted to certain things. Who cares about who actually would "win".

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Zeus posted...

Do you hate fun?

Yes.



Zeus posted...

The vampire would likely just get really sick. In Being Human, werewolf blood made vampires violently ill

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Aka, in some lores/mythos, vampires are basically immune to diseases, especially blood ones.

This is the real problem with that discussion. Because we're talking about fictional concepts that are basically public domain, there's no single vision or objectively correct interpretation of how they work. So it's hard to say how multiple quantumly uncertain mechanics would interact.

Is zombieism a virus? A curse? The result of black magic? Voodoo drugs? The fact that there's no more room in hell, forcing souls back into their bodies? The beginning of the Day of Judgement? Something else?

Is vampirism a virus? A curse? Black magic? Something that makes you glitter in the sunlight? The next stage of human evolution? A literal punishment by God? A form of demonic possession?

Is lycanthropy a virus? A curse? Black magic? A deal witches make with Satan to change? A distinct race of their own? The chosen champions of a literal world-spirit? The result of ancient furries fucking their way across the world? The descendants of trickster gods?

The different variations all have their own complications as well. Do zombies lack any form of healing (settings where they rot), or are they actually more regenerative than humans (Resident Evil)? Do vampires pass on vampirism to literally everyone they bite, or does it require three bites? Or actively having to share their blood with the victim? Can a vampire feed without killing, or do they have to kill every meal? Can werewolves pass on their curse at all, or is it an innate part of their nature they can only pass on to their children (or not at all)? Are vampires immune to all disease (explaining why they're not walking sacks of blood-transmitted STD), or are they more vulnerable because of the fluid transfer? Does zombie infection require a blatant bite, any degree of fluid transfer (meaning even getting zombie blood in your eye dooms you), or is it a virus that infects everyone, but only manifests when you "die" (like Walking Dead)? If you become a vampire, does supernatural evil warp every aspect of your personality and turn you into a monster no matter who you were before, or are you still basically the same person, only now you have to drink blood to survive?

Does mixing vampire and werewolf blood result in a weird super-power hybrid like in Underworld or White Wolf, or does it just kill one or both of the two? If you're something already magical (like a witch, or a magic-powered werewolf), does being turned into a vampire make you a magical vampire, or does it destroy the spark of magic in you and just leave you a normal vampire (or just kills you entirely)?

Unless we break things down into very specific examples (like, say, an RE zombie and a Buffy/Angel vampire biting each other), it kind of becomes impossible to even theorycraft out what might happen.

But I've always kind of been a fan of weird hybrids, so I'll usually err on the side that the two both sort of become something new. Which might be why I liked the ninja pirate zombie robot in Kingdom of Loathing.
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I've always had a major logical problem with vampire and werewolf mythos, and it's this.

Why does silver have such power to hurt them?

Hear me out.

These are creatures that tacitly have a bad, bad relationship with the Sun. Gold is associated with the Sun universally in mythology, whereas the Moon is associated with Silver.

Gold should fuck their shit up, not Silver. If anything, Silver should boost their power by the logic of magical transference. The whole "silver hurts them" sounds like the sort of bullshit vampires and werewolves would spread as an old wives tale for their own safety.

And while we're at it, fuck zombies too. Ok, if they're like 28 days/I am legend type fast zombies with pack mentality and a hunting instinct, yeah we're fucked.

If they're the more traditional shambling corpses zombies, are you fucking kidding me? 2 years later and people are still holed up on rooftops with stairwells full of shopping carts and shit living in fear? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. Zombies are rotting flesh. Rotting flesh attracts scavengers. Rats, flies, seagulls, crows, ants, coyotes...you get the picture. In a fortnight we'd have a walking skeleton problem at worst, and that wouldn't even make sense without muscle and ligament. Even if there were giant herds of undead moving around, humidity would bring fungus, arid climates would dessicate flesh, and the first winter would freeze most of the bastards solid in their tracks.

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Depending on the version of zombie, it's not even really a challenge one on one for a normal human.

Vampires which can move much faster, do not NEED to drink blood from their enemies (I mean they need it eventually but not part of a fight), so a vampire could easily kill 1000 zombies without ever drinking any of their blood or being contaminated by it.

In addition the vampires are much stronger (even then zombies), much faster, and very intelligent. They could just avoid the whole zombie hoard easily and would have no reason to destroy them.

Finally, many versions of vampire (DnD etc) have control over the undead, and even create their own zombie followers, so it's highly likely the vampire could control the zombies, or take control of them at least.

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If they are like The Walking Dead zombies then a vampire biting them would accomplish nothing - the stagnant blood wouldn't convert the zombie and the vampire is unlikely to be affected by being the biter ifnot already immune to the disease/already infected.

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

I've always had a major logical problem with vampire and werewolf mythos, and it's this.

Why does silver have such power to hurt them?

In the case of werewolves, it's entirely because a movie came out in the 1940s and the entire world was brainwashed into accepting it as fact. Silver was never a thing in werewolf myth before. Most people would be absolutely astonished to realize just how much of what they think they know about werewolves comes from The Wolf Man (their bite was literally never contagious before then, either, for example). It's the same way sunlight wasn't actually lethal to vampires until Nosferatu came out. Hollywood has seriously distorted our understanding of supernatural folklore.

Though in the modern context, silver hurts werewolves almost entirely because werewolves are now tied so strongly to the moon. Silver is the moon's metal, werewolves are clearly moon-touched, so it's mostly a case of "fighting fire with fire" or turning their own nature against them.

For vampires (the ones who actually had a weakness to silver in traditional folklore)? It's because a lot of folklore involved silver being a particularly "pure" metal (and there are theories that this is because silver actually has demonstrably anti-microbial properties that even pre-scientific cultures would be able to notice). This might also be part of what led to the use of "quicksilver" (aka mercury) in alchemical potions meant to prolong life (ironically doing the opposite).

So the assumption was that something so pure would be anathema to a creature that is by definition unnatural and unholy. Incidentally, the silver thing is also the reason why vampires don't reflect in mirrors - mirrors were originally backed with silver as the reflecting agent, and the pure silver obviously wouldn't reflect the corrupt evil of such a creature. This is also why in some modern interpretations you couldn't photograph vampires either - early photography used plates with silver in them. Which actually means that, logically, modern mirrors shouldn't have a problem reflecting vampires anymore, and film shouldn't have a problem taking their picture - so if you're an aspiring vampire hunter, you'd have to go out of your way to special order custom mirrors or track down antique mirrors if you wanted to use them as a vampire detector.

As for why gold doesn't work (via its connection to the sun), well, there's two reasons against it. First, as I mentioned earlier, the sun was never actually anathema to vampires prior to Nosferatu (Dracula didn't like the sun, and vampires were always nocturnal in general, but the sun wouldn't kill them any more than it would if you took a skunk or bat or owl out in the daytime), so there was never really time for that to work it's way into the mythos (though a modern writer could certainly work that idea into a story if they wanted). But secondly, gold wasn't even the universal metal of the sun anyway - in a number of cultures, silver is more associated with the sun than gold is (Apollo, for example, had a silver bow and silver arrows). Modern pop culture tends to equate gold with the sun (which might stem from Christianity, or might actually be even later via Mayan/Aztec/Incan influence), but people living in the forests of Eastern Europe wouldn't necessarily have immediately made the leap that gold = sun.

Plus, let's be honest, silver is more common/cheaper than gold. If you're looking for anti-monster weapons, you're probably not going to be melting down gold to make bullets or stakes or daggers or whatever unless you're a king. And pure gold is soft - weapons made out of gold would be much more likely to bend or deform than silver ones.

Though there's other alternatives to consider. Vampire myths/fiction that take China/Asia into account tend to allow jade to be an option, as jade is supposed to have the power to purify and prevent rot. And modern versions can incorporate other things that pre-industrial cultures would never have been able to conceive (like the anti-coagulant in Blade) - any rare non-naturally occurring material could potentially be a problem for vampires, and no one ever realized it before because no vampire had ever been exposed to it.
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Lokarin posted...

If they are like The Walking Dead zombies then a vampire biting them would accomplish nothing - the stagnant blood wouldn't convert the zombie

Which asks another question - can vampires feed on corpses?

Anne Rice vampires seem to be poisoned by dead blood, whereas in White Wolf it's just seen as being kind of disgusting, and other vampires might have no problem with it at all (other than the most obvious - that after a while blood will coagulate and you're basically just sucking on dust or a scab).

As a corollary of that, what happens if vampires feed on vampires? Is vampire blood essentially worthless? Do vampires even HAVE blood of their own, other than what they've stolen from others by feeding? Is it basically the same thing as human blood? Or is it even more potent? What happens if one vampire drinks another "dry"?
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

This is the real problem with that discussion. Because we're talking about fictional concepts that are basically public domain, there's no single vision or objectively correct interpretation of how they work. So it's hard to say how multiple quantumly uncertain mechanics would interact.

Is zombieism a virus? A curse? The result of black magic? Voodoo drugs? The fact that there's no more room in hell, forcing souls back into their bodies? The beginning of the Day of Judgement? Something else?

Is vampirism a virus? A curse? Black magic? Something that makes you glitter in the sunlight? The next stage of human evolution? A literal punishment by God? A form of demonic possession?

Is lycanthropy a virus? A curse? Black magic? A deal witches make with Satan to change? A distinct race of their own? The chosen champions of a literal world-spirit? The result of ancient furries fucking their way across the world? The descendants of trickster gods?

Well, you always have historic lore... which can also be contradictory, varying based on region, etc. In the case of zombies, our conception is almost entirely a Hollywood invention bearing little resemblance to the original concept. It makes the liberties taken with werewolves and vampires seem small by comparison.


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Zeus posted...

In the case of zombies, our conception is almost entirely a Hollywood invention bearing little resemblance to the original concept. It makes the liberties taken with werewolves and vampires seem small by comparison.

Almost everything we think we know about zombies comes from George Romero or Dan O'Bannon. Unless you're classy, in which case most of what you know about zombies comes from Serpent and the Rainbow instead.

It's not much better for the other two, though. Most vampire "lore" comes straight from Dracula or its direct successors, and I already mentioned how most werewolf lore stems almost entirely from The Wolf Man (prior to that, werewolves were mostly just considered witches who could shapeshift into animals via demon magic).

Vampires are probably the ones who still have at least some of their original trappings as part of the general stereotype, and there are always the horror hipsters who will dig deep back in the well and pull out folklore to season their fiction with (like going with the "can't cross running water" or "has to stop and count things" weaknesses - which, as I often like to point out, means The Count from Sesame Street is actually one of the most accurate depictions of vampires in modern media). But even there, there've been so damned many variations, and they tend to differ so much across various mythologies, that it's hard to point to a single archetype and say "THIS is the real vampire".

Except the sparkling. That's definitely not a thing vampires do, ever.
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*back from Episode 4 of Picard*

Hmm. Do I have anything to contribute to this? ... Nothing I can cover that has not already been covered, perhaps, except that I can add that most of what is depicted in The Serpent and the Rainbow comes from a sensationalist travel book called The Magic Island by William Seabrook, back from the time period when the U.S. more or less ruled Haiti as a colony. Seabrook based his account on his experiences in Haiti, but he also made stuff up wholesale that has no basis in reality. Still a very engaging read if you want to learn the basics of vaudou and the zombi myth, but it is only a starting point.

Source: This is something I actually studied back in the day. One of my professors was from Haiti.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Except the sparkling. That's definitely not a thing vampires do, ever.

Damn. You ruined my joke before I could post it.

I_Abibde posted...

*back from Episode 4 of Picard*

Hmm. Do I have anything to contribute to this? ... Nothing I can cover that has not already been covered, perhaps, except that I can add that most of what is depicted in The Serpent and the Rainbow comes from a sensationalist travel book called The Magic Island by William Seabrook, back from the time period when the U.S. more or less ruled Haiti as a colony. Seabrook based his account on his experiences in Haiti, but he also made stuff up wholesale that has no basis in reality. Still a very engaging read if you want to learn the basics of vaudou and the zombi myth, but it is only a starting point.

Source: This is something I actually studied back in the day. One of my professors was from Haiti.

Aren't Haitian "zombies" just drugged out slaves?
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Revelation34 posted...

Aren't Haitian "zombies" just drugged out slaves?

Something something curare tea?

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Revelation34 posted...

Aren't Haitian "zombies" just drugged out slaves?

It is ... complicated, but it involves the use of pufferfish toxin, combined with a funeral and staged burial, to make a person believe that they have died and that you have complete control over their body after they dig you back up. Scary stuff. The Duvalier dictatorship used to threaten people with it and make the public believe that the regime still had power over your soul after your death.

The disclaimer here is that real-life examples have very scarce documentation. It is almost impossible to sift the facts from centuries of deliberate fiction.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Vampires are probably the ones who still have at least some of their original trappings as part of the general stereotype, and there are always the horror hipsters who will dig deep back in the well and pull out folklore to season their fiction with (like going with the "can't cross running water" or "has to stop and count things" weaknesses - which, as I often like to point out, means The Count from Sesame Street is actually one of the most accurate depictions of vampires in modern media). But even there, there've been so damned many variations, and they tend to differ so much across various mythologies, that it's hard to point to a single archetype and say "THIS is the real vampire".

I've always enjoyed the "can't cross running water" and "have to be invited in" ones. Or that they need to travel with their coffins/native soil. IIRC, Hellsing keeps most of these, which I enjoy, and makes vampires ridiculously inhuman in their strength. Or how Castlevania does is.

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I've always found the "can't cross running water" fascinating on some level. Depending on the geography of where a vampire was sired, that could be incredibly confining, or a huge swath of night in which to roam.

I mean where I live, I can see the Hudson River out of my windows to the east, about a mile north and south of me are sizable creeks that feed directly into the Hudson, and I'm not 100% sure how far west of me that I'd have to go to hit another north-south running water source but I can't imagine it's more than a couple of miles given that I'm in the Hudson valley and all.

Meanwhile, if a vampire were sired in say, Utah, you could probably throw a dart at the map and draw a Connecticut sized box around that dart to scale and not cross a river with the sides of that box.

And if we're counting plumbing and sewers as "running water" then unless the vampire rose somewhere where they still shit in a hole in the ground, they're practically imprisoned tighter than a fairy in a bottle already.

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

I've always found the "can't cross running water" fascinating on some level. Depending on the geography of where a vampire was sired, that could be incredibly confining, or a huge swath of night in which to roam.

I mean where I live, I can see the Hudson River out of my windows to the east, about a mile north and south of me are sizable creeks that feed directly into the Hudson, and I'm not 100% sure how far west of me that I'd have to go to hit another north-south running water source but I can't imagine it's more than a couple of miles given that I'm in the Hudson valley and all.

Meanwhile, if a vampire were sired in say, Utah, you could probably throw a dart at the map and draw a Connecticut sized box around that dart to scale and not cross a river with the sides of that box.

And if we're counting plumbing and sewers as "running water" then unless the vampire rose somewhere where they still shit in a hole in the ground, they're practically imprisoned tighter than a fairy in a bottle already.

I think that's only using their own supernatural abilities to cross. So they would be able to use a boat.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

I already mentioned how most werewolf lore stems almost entirely from The Wolf Man (prior to that, werewolves were mostly just considered witches who could shapeshift into animals via demon magic).

Sounds like you're cribbing the Wolfman >_> The satanism connection has been closely aligned with Hollywood, starting with the Wolfman's pentagram

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

I've always enjoyed the "can't cross running water" and "have to be invited in" ones. Or that they need to travel with their coffins/native soil. IIRC, Hellsing keeps most of these, which I enjoy, and makes vampires ridiculously inhuman in their strength. Or how Castlevania does is.

The invitation clause was always a really cool handicap which also gave them an additional menacing connotation. A lot of things still use that one (including Being Human), even if they abandoned the running water one.

It's worth noting that the running water restriction is prevalent throughout a lot of supernatural lore, including as a precaution against werewolves and ghosts (coincidentally, it's why the Headless Horseman was said to be unable to cross the bridge in the Legend of Sleepy Hollow)


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In other news, Larry Tesler died on Monday at the age of 74.

RIP the Father of Cut, Copy, and Paste.

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CyborgSage00x0 posted...

I've always enjoyed the "can't cross running water" and "have to be invited in" ones. Or that they need to travel with their coffins/native soil.

I honestly loved how Vampire: the Masquerade handled things - there are different clans/bloodlines of vampires, and each one has different weaknesses. So it kind of explains why there are so many contradictory myths and legends about vampires - they're true for some clans, not for others.

So the Tzimisce (Dracula's clan) have the two handfuls of grave dirt thing, but it's the Lasombra who don't reflect in mirrors. One bloodline is especially weak to light, another is weaker to religious symbols, and so on.

The problem was that they ran out of cool weaknesses quickly, and didn't feel like "counts stuff" or "has to be invited in" or "running water" made for good weaknesses, so they didn't give them to any specific clan (though players could take them as personal Disadvantages if they wanted to).

I also liked how they sort of took all the various stereotypes and turned them into separate clans to justify how they could all exist at once. So The Lost Boys were basically Brujah, Anne Rice vampires were almost certainly Toreador, turning into a wolf/bat was a Gangrel thing, the Tzimisce were the creepy Eastern European lords, the Nosferatu were literally the vampire from Nosferatu, etc.



WhiskeyDisk posted...

I've always found the "can't cross running water" fascinating on some level. Depending on the geography of where a vampire was sired, that could be incredibly confining, or a huge swath of night in which to roam.

It was originally another purity thing - running water is "pure" (ie, less likely to be contaminated with bacteria, and thus drinkable), so its purity repelled vampires. Plus, water is literally symbolic of life itself in most cultures, so again, is anathema to the walking dead. And for most of human history, rivers tended to be natural borders, so there's the symbolism of crossing out of your native land (vampires had to remain tied to their native soil, hence the dirt thing).

Yes, that seems like you're kind of screwed if you're a vampire and you die on an island, but there's usually loopholes around it (ie, they can use boats, walk across bridges, etc - they just can't ford a river or fly across one using their own power).



WhiskeyDisk posted...

And if we're counting plumbing and sewers as "running water" then unless the vampire rose somewhere where they still shit in a hole in the ground, they're practically imprisoned tighter than a fairy in a bottle already.

It's worth remembering that plumbing and sewers really weren't much of a thing back when most vampire myths were coming into being. At best, you might have aquaducts, rainwater runoff troughs, and the occasional cistern. But again, purity comes into it - sewers are likely too "polluted" (in the metaphysical sense) to repel vampires at all, and even regular water pipes likely wouldn't affect them because the water is completely contained within a pipe, minimizing its ability to influence the vampire.



Zeus posted...

Sounds like you're cribbing the Wolfman >_> The satanism connection has been closely aligned with Hollywood, starting with the Wolfman's pentagram

Yeah, that's about the only thing in that movie that's actually accurate. For most of history, lycanthropy/shapeshifting in general was a black magic thing, where someone would deliberately transform into an animal of their own will, then change back (part of why black cats are associated with witches).

The idea of the half wolf/man form, the idea that the change is involuntary, that the person loses control when they become an animal, or that there's any tie to the moon, all come almost entirely from that movie or the sequels that followed.



Zeus posted...

It's worth noting that the running water restriction is prevalent throughout a lot of supernatural lore, including as a precaution against werewolves and ghosts (coincidentally, it's why the Headless Horseman was said to be unable to cross the bridge in the Legend of Sleepy Hollow)

Rivers are great for saving you from the supernatural. You just hope there isn't a rusalka in it.

Though it's also worth noting that the reverse is true to some degree - the unnatural can taint pure water. The Romani used to have the belief that a menstruating woman shouldn't cross running water, because if she did she would taint it, and it would become unsafe to drink. And then you'd have to ritualistically purify the water before it would be usable again.
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Watched the live-action Aladdin finally, which left me with some pretty mixed feelings. While I liked it for the most part, I can't help but wonder if I would like it at all if I hadn't already seen the cartoon version because the presentation at times almost presupposes a certain amount of knowledge (such as the intro scene where we see an overview of characters, locations, etc). The Cave of Wonders in particular feels like it has less of an explanation, although I suppose it hardly needs one.

My other semi-criticism is that it has something of a Bollywood feel and that a few of the song numbers (particularly "You've Never Had a Friend Like Me" really drag), in addition to the song quality being a little lackluster. However, the thing that irks me the most is the SJW, girl power "I Won't Be Silent" song which was just a ridiculously stupid moment, a transparently agenda-driven song, and not even a half-decent song to boot.

I'm still split on the casting. Will Smith was alright as Genie. I kinda like Jafar, but they didn't really bother with the cartoon appearance and I missed the ridiculous beard. Plus the Jafar-Genie didn't look nearly as badass as it did in the cartoon.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

In the case of werewolves, it's entirely because a movie came out in the 1940s and the entire world was brainwashed into accepting it as fact. Silver was never a thing in werewolf myth before. Most people would be absolutely astonished to realize just how much of what they think they know about werewolves comes from The Wolf Man (their bite was literally never contagious before then, either, for example). It's the same way sunlight wasn't actually lethal to vampires until Nosferatu came out. Hollywood has seriously distorted our understanding of supernatural folklore.

Though in the modern context, silver hurts werewolves almost entirely because werewolves are now tied so strongly to the moon. Silver is the moon's metal, werewolves are clearly moon-touched, so it's mostly a case of "fighting fire with fire" or turning their own nature against them.

Sunlight didn't hurt vampires? wtf, the superstition involving vampires counting -- which you yourself acknowledge -- directly contradicts this claim. When somebody left mustard seeds out (I *think* it was mustard seeds), it was to keep the vampire counting until the morning sun could get them.

And while the Wolfman may have popularized silver as a werewolf weapon, it *already* existed in folklore to some extent and it was broadly a solution for supernatural beings so it was almost certainly seen as a historic solution as well. The moon connotation is merely how people choose to read into and justify the existing weakness.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

The Romani used to have the belief that a menstruating woman shouldn't cross running water, because if she did she would taint it,

What you did there, I seen it.

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Iron was well known as a fey weapon waaay back, and Silver poisoning was a weapon against werewolves almost from the start.

Major series have been written by authors for along time that have expanded the lore though. Anne rice everyone knows about, and that included vampires feeding off each other, a more in depth description on how they started, and how they gain power over time etc.

Laurrel K Hamilton had a great series before she decided to become a porn godess, which also expanded some on both vampires and werewolves, and was kinda incorporated in many authors works after that.

Patricia Brigs did a few werewolf series as well, focusing and expanding and tons of other authors (tons of urban fantasy authors basically) covered all types (fey, vampires, werewolves etc etc). Even my favorite author Jim Butcher added to the lore and different types of Vampires etc. There are so many types at this point, and it's often considered common knowledge for so many books/series, that it's almost impossible to read fiction at all and not get some info on them.

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Zeus posted...

Sunlight didn't hurt vampires?

No. Dracula (the book) explicitly mentions Dracula (the character) outside during the day. So does Carmilla. It was never really a major thing before Nosferatu introduced the idea. At most, in some interpretations sunlight would weaken their unholy powers a bit, but they'd still be more or less fine. And in others they were almost entirely unaffected by sunlight other than just being tired because they were awake all night.

The general implication is that vampires CAN go out in the day, just as nocturnal animals can go out in the day. They just prefer to hunt at night because it's easier to stalk your prey when your prey is sleeping (and were people aren't going to see who you are). So they spend most of the day sleeping, because they spend most of the night active. But they can go out in the day if they need to.

Keep in mind, it would have been almost entirely impossible for anyone to pass as a normal human if they couldn't interact during the day for most of human history. Prior to the advent of electricity/electric lighting, almost every service and social activity only took place during the day. Someone who only went out at night would be an almost immediate suspect for pretty much everything (which would suck for anyone who had a legitimate sunlight sensitivity).



Zeus posted...

wtf, the superstition involving vampires counting -- which you yourself acknowledge -- directly contradicts this claim. When somebody left mustard seeds out (I *think* it was mustard seeds), it was to keep the vampire counting until the morning sun could get them.

That wasn't why. The point was to keep the vampire counting so you could run the fuck away. The idea was, by the time the vampire finished counting, you'd be gone and it wouldn't be able to follow you. It goes hand-in-hand with the running water thing - it wasn't a method for killing the vampire, it was a method for running away from the vampire (ie, find a river, creek, stream, etc and cross it as quickly as possible).

It's part of why the standard "let's kill vampires" method was to stake them, cut their head off, and stick garlic in their mouth (and possibly throwing in holy water or holy ground for good measure). Otherwise, all you'd really need to do is break a hole in their house or drag them out into the sun and they'd burst into flames.



Zeus posted...

And while the Wolfman may have popularized silver as a werewolf weapon, it *already* existed in folklore to some extent and it was broadly a solution for supernatural beings so it was almost certainly seen as a historic solution as well.

Yes - silver was a weapon you could use against vampires. And demons. NOT werewolves.

Silver was mostly a weapon that could be used against unholy/demonic things - and werewolves were never actually considered to be supernatural in that sense. Like I mentioned, they were usually considered to be humans using black magic, or under the influence of magic, and silver was rarely used as an anti-magic substance (if anything, silver was often pro-magic for a lot of ritualists). They have more in common with witches than they do vampires - and silver doesn't hurt witches, either.

It wasn't really until The Wolf Man radically changed the concept of what a werewolf WAS that silver would have made sense as a weakness anyway. And it was the first source to explicitly establish that it was. Which basically influenced nearly every other story that followed (again, in the same way that nearly every single zombie story any of us have ever heard can trace its roots directly back to Night of the Living Dead).

Believe me, I spent waaay too long playing White Wolf games. I've done a fuckton of research on this sort of stuff.



wolfy42 posted...

Silver poisoning was a weapon against werewolves almost from the start.

Nope.

It was never a thing in actual mythology. It wasn't even a thing in fiction until about 100 years ago, give or take. It's a very new addition to the concept.
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On that note. How come witchers don't have two silver blades since silver blades would kill humans too?
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